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Don't do Day 1 DLC


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#376
MDCT506

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Bleachrude wrote...

MDCT506 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Again, using Ultima IV as my benchmark, where I get one of the greatest games ever made for $160, $70 is a low price.  As long as the game is enjoyable, $70 is fine.


I think that, while Ultima IV is a good reference and an excellent game, it's more fair to compare prices with games from the 90's which are what I think most people think about when they see the cost of a video game and scowl.  PC games IIRC used to cost $40 US, which is inflated to a hair over $60 US today.  The reality is that there isn't any real difference in terms of cost, but there is perception of a difference in value because of the price difference.  It isn't wrong to think about it as either a good deal or too expensive, since value is a pretty subjective thing. 



Eh...but many games nowadays are just plain bigger than before. For example, for all the problems of Battlefield 4 is currently having, as a GAME, it simply is much larger/bigger than anything you can point to in the past.


I couldn't agree more.  Modern games have more available talent to draw from, better engines and support, better hardware to develop it on, and better hardware to run it on.  The list goes on and on and it can add up to games with more substance than past games.  Not everyopne thinks about it like that when they consider if a game is worth their money though. 

#377
Angrywolves

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stan posted:
"Audiences can get disguntled over anything. It is impossible for BioWare to please everyone all the time. Much of the grumbling you're seeing may be indicative of something very wrong at BioWare, or, more likely, it's the usual fan grumbling that something wasn't quite right, wasn't as good as expected, or wasn't to someone's taste. That's going to happen on any game."

We shall see.

The game looks great so far.
I feel that.Whether it will be reflected among all the fans remains to be seen.
Whether a tour de force DAI that had mindblowing sales and persuaded all the fans that Bioware was back remaiins to be seen.Whether such success would heal the rift bvetween the fans, the Bioware developers, employees and their supporters remains to be seen, as I tread carefully.rotfl

#378
ghostzodd

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Angrywolves wrote...

stan posted:
"Audiences can get disguntled over anything. It is impossible for BioWare to please everyone all the time. Much of the grumbling you're seeing may be indicative of something very wrong at BioWare, or, more likely, it's the usual fan grumbling that something wasn't quite right, wasn't as good as expected, or wasn't to someone's taste. That's going to happen on any game."

We shall see.

The game looks great so far.
I feel that.Whether it will be reflected among all the fans remains to be seen.
Whether a tour de force DAI that had mindblowing sales and persuaded all the fans that Bioware was back remaiins to be seen.Whether such success would heal the rift bvetween the fans, the Bioware developers, employees and their supporters remains to be seen, as I tread carefully.rotfl


well they still have not announced the multiplayer mode we know thats coming. So when all pieces are revealed then we shall see.

#379
Angrywolves

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mutiplayer is pretty much a foregone conclusions, imo aka Frank Gibeau EAVP.
The only question is how it will be implimented.I presume it's the last thing they'll do probably as some kind of add on or maybe even bring it out later as a dlc.

#380
AlanC9

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Oh, jeez... another post about what "the fans" are feeling?

#381
ghostzodd

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Angrywolves wrote...

mutiplayer is pretty much a foregone conclusions, imo aka Frank Gibeau EAVP.
The only question is how it will be implimented.I presume it's the last thing they'll do probably as some kind of add on or maybe even bring it out later as a dlc.


I just hope that it is not some horde mode crap:crying:

#382
In Exile

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Fast Jimmy wrote...
True. True. Then again, renting a hot air balloon for $500 an hour is also entertainment, but is a pretty terrible ratio when juxtapositioned to even DLC. Regardless, I consider the industry alternative, expansion packs for ~$30, and see a much higher value ratio than DLC, where three times the price of a DLC gets you roughly the same amount of content as half a game. I realize why developers have moved away from the expansion pack model by and large, but that doesn't mean I have to think the newer DLC model isn't fleecing consumers by contrast. 


An expansion pack's value, IMO, varied by the game. Brood War for Starcraft arguably gave you the same SP campaign over again for less than the full value of the game, and so did the Westwood C&C titles. RPGs gave you a lot of content in their expansions, but those games had lots of content overall. I honestly can't think of other genres that had expansion packs. 

I look at what Dishonoured did with its Daoud focused DLC, and I'm not sure that the content there isn't getting close to expansion pack territory. I think three episodic DLCs at $10, in an action-RPG or RPG, arguably equal the value you'd get out of an expansion pack.

And then I look at New Vegas, and think that the content for something like Dead Money was just incredible for the amount I would have paid had I got it full value (bought the ultimate edition on sale for maybe $9.99, so to say that I got an insane value deal is underselling it by a country mile). 

#383
Il Divo

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Movies have slowly increased their price over the years and offer roughly the same end product - 1.5 to 3 hours of cinematic presentation. One viewing at $10 a pop is worth it in some cases, not worth it in others. Buying a DVD that let's you have unlimited viewing as well as additional features (including cut content, what we are told D1DLC is) for $30 is, also, sometimes worth it, sometimes not. So I'm not sure what your point is.


That should be obvious. This is your cost-benefit analysis in action. Hell, you illustrated it yourself by pointing out the 1.5-3 hours view time. Are companies saying to themselves "Hey, our product here is half as long, so we can only charge half the price? And are consumers saying "Hey, this movie is 3 hours long, it's a much better deal!"?

Ultimately, there is no objective means by which your cost-benefit analysis works. We can talk about it on a game length or movie length factor, but that also omits a plethora of other relevant factors at play.  

Cost-benefit ratio does not equal "what the market will abide," for the record. Buying a new car for $30K when you can buy the same model and make car that is one year older for half of the price is terrible cost-benefit ratios... but people still buy brand new cars in droves.


Which is exactly what makes pointing to Javik and saying his value doesn't compare to a base game foolish. Javik doesn't need to compare on that basis any more than other products out there are required to. But I suspect what motivates a movie sale is not whether the viewer is getting a 1.5 or 2 hour experience, but whether they found the overall experience enjoyable.

Because what you call "consumer choice," I (and many others) call nickel and diming. The industry should get in the habit of evaluating what their game is worth and could objectively sell for, like every other industry, instead of looking at what they can sell for $60 and then chop up and sell separately at an inflated value price. 


Good luck defining the objective worth of a game. Some here, like Sylvius, insist they could handle a $170 price point. Some argue that dlc or anything charged above the initial $60 is a massive scandal.

And, again, it is all a matter of perspective. You didn't buy Jahvik because you saw advertisements that said "this character is deeply ingrained to the main story" or "see background detail into the story." You bought it for the same reason eveyrone else did - it was a Prothean squadmate. Pure and simple. Just like people bought Kasumi because "oooooh, space ninja thief!" You are acting like large volumes of these sales aren't pre-orders or people who don't do through, in-depth research into how the DLC content is integrated into the main game.


No, I act like Bioware used an effective tactic; sell content people are likely to pay for. Overall assessment of Javik, from my admittedly limited experience, has been that he's an excellent character/content but they didn't enjoy paying for him. But at the end of the day, the consumer did it anyway. I am curious though how Kasumi or Overlord managed to sell, by comparison.

People don't complain because Jahvik was or was not a huge part of ME3... they complain because the Protheans are arguably one of the most intriguing and talked about aspects of the ME lore. So its value goes beyond how integrated he is to ME3's main plot... the idea of a Prothean squadmate is integrated into the entire series, given how they are placed on a pedestal. His existence as a paid companion is going to induce fan rage simply because it was something the entire trilogy had been hyping, if inadvertently. 


See above. You just provided the central motivation to make this the day 1 dlc, instead of James Vega, human soldier #14,563.

Aside from there being many who prior to ME3's release were expecting Javik to play some critical plot function (possibly based on the out of date plot synopsis), . ME1 dehyped the Protheans when they showed us they hadn't really been responsible for any of our technological advances, all secretly being Reaper tech. ME2 attempted to make the Protheans relevant, but as other critics have pointed out, the plot twist achieved nothing useful. How, from these two factors, fans were expecting Prothean hype is beyond me.

Javik functions as an independent entity. I think your line of reasoning on this point works about as well as saying "I bought Mass Effect 1 and 2" and the Reaper threat is really built up there, so Mass Effect 3 should come free since it concludes the Reaper threat".

#384
Bleachrude

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I think that's the interesting comparison.

Javik as a day 1 DLC versus say Sebastian as day 1 DLC. I'm with others that think Javik is a better realized character and is something that I would pay for whereas I really even though don't hate Sebastian, didn't think he brought anything new to the table.

#385
Sanunes

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Bleachrude wrote...

I think that's the interesting comparison.

Javik as a day 1 DLC versus say Sebastian as day 1 DLC. I'm with others that think Javik is a better realized character and is something that I would pay for whereas I really even though don't hate Sebastian, didn't think he brought anything new to the table.


I agree, looking back at all the DLC characters still my personal favorite is still Shale for I enjoyed Shale being in my party a lot more then Javik. My opinion is that Javik is integrated better, but at the same time the BSN complained non-stop about how bad Kasumi and Zaeed were integrated.  I wonder if that is why Javik feels so integrated is because they made him function exactly like any other companion in the game based on that feedback.

Modifié par Sanunes, 25 décembre 2013 - 03:17 .


#386
Il Divo

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Fast food is a terrible example... because the cost-benefit ratio is remarkably equal. You cannot go to the grocery store and buy ingredients to make, say, a chicken sandwich with all the dressing, lettuce tomato that is also fried for much less than what you can buy it at a fast food restaurant. All ingredients being the same, fast food is a FANTASTIC cost-benefit ratio, not to mention more expedient on an exponential level. 


I knew I missed something. Sorry about that.

I should have been more clear on the fast food example. The comparison wasn't meant in relation to grocery shopping, although you could make a health argument as far as cost/benefit analysis.

Fast food (or eating out in general) can also be regarded as a sort entertainment; it's often done in addition to purchasing base groceries, rather than in place of. You're with some friends and have the option of eating out or spending your money in other ways. In this regard, the momentary enjoyment of fast food is extremely inefficient compared to buying a dvd, which as you point out can be played endlessly.

The key point here is that you made a comparison between the cost of dlc vs base game, which ultimately doesn't work since it is not a universal rule that people spend their money on the most efficient products available or that products which offer the most replay value are the most enjoyable.

Modifié par Il Divo, 25 décembre 2013 - 03:58 .


#387
Il Divo

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Sanunes wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

I think that's the interesting comparison.

Javik as a day 1 DLC versus say Sebastian as day 1 DLC. I'm with others that think Javik is a better realized character and is something that I would pay for whereas I really even though don't hate Sebastian, didn't think he brought anything new to the table.


I agree, looking back at all the DLC characters still my personal favorite is still Shale for I enjoyed Shale being in my party a lot more then Javik. My opinion is that Javik is integrated better, but at the same time the BSN complained non-stop about how bad Kasumi and Zaeed were integrated.  I wonder if that is why Javik feels so integrated is because they made him function exactly like any other companion in the game based on that feedback.


Which is odd because it makes Bioware more at risk of the "stealing base content" argument. If it's integrated well into the main game, people will say Bioware ripped out content from the base purchase. If there is no integration period, people complain about a lack of quality.

#388
addiction21

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Javik seems to have it all the right hot buttons. Not free, day 1 dlc. had code on the disk and was of good quality.

Shale gets a pass for being free but was day one dlc, quality, and would still have been found on disk.
Zaeade like shale was free Kasumi wasn't d1dlc but had code on disk.
And Sebastion... well no one seems to even like him so whatever.

#389
LinksOcarina

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i actually do like Sebastain. I found his personal struggle interesting, and didn't mind his unique perspective regarding the Chantry and its position on things, or at least what he saw as its position.

I think the issue people have is as a character for gameplay, he doesn't bring much new to the table. When compared to say Shale or Zaeed, hes a more grounded character, which works in his favor since he fits in with the cast of Dragon Age II in that role.

It sticks out like a sore thumb to us because usually the DLC characters are very unique or bombastic.

#390
BouncyFrag

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For such a lenghtly thread about a hot button issue I'd hoped that we would of had some dev input by now.

#391
Guest_Miscellaneous Mind_*

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Speak for yourself. I like spending additional money for cut content after spending $60 on the game.

#392
addiction21

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BouncyFrag wrote...

For such a lenghtly thread about a hot button issue I'd hoped that we would of had some dev input by now.


They have multiple times in the past. Repeatedly over and over and over again. Any of the devs that regular the BSN have weighed in on this many times going back to BSN.
Anything they said now would be similar to what they have been saying for years so if you are interested look it up. Do a google search or whatever.

Short of total capitulation to the detractors that yes they have intentionally been slicing out already finished portions of the game to sell later and they have purposefully fleecing customers what would actually change?

Seen it over and over again when what they say and what people want here the devs just get ignored.

#393
Meltemph

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My problem with DLC isnt that I'm paying for what should be in the game(since the industries obsessiveness with sticking to a singular price point is part of the problem), I dislike micro-transactions, and I hope we don't see it in Bioware games(like in the multiplayer of ME3) single-player modes. Forza 5 type of microtransactions, imo, are horrible for the industry and takes away from the actual game, because it encourages game design around such a thing.

The only real problem I have with DLC is when it is tied to pre-ordes. I hate pre-order DLC, specially when you have 50 different versions of the pre-order.

#394
BouncyFrag

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addiction21 wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

For such a lenghtly thread about a hot button issue I'd hoped that we would of had some dev input by now.


They have multiple times in the past. Repeatedly over and over and over again. Any of the devs that regular the BSN have weighed in on this many times going back to BSN.
Anything they said now would be similar to what they have been saying for years so if you are interested look it up. Do a google search or whatever.

Short of total capitulation to the detractors that yes they have intentionally been slicing out already finished portions of the game to sell later and they have purposefully fleecing customers what would actually change?

Seen it over and over again when what they say and what people want here the devs just get ignored.

Kind of goes against the point of a discussion board where people discuss things as opposed to telling people to goggle it as if they should have known better.

#395
Angrywolves

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Developers rarely come to the BSN and input.It's always either Schumacher who is busy right now it seems or Gaider.Gaider rarely comes in with the warm and fuzzies, lol.
I don't think day 1 dlc will be an issue for the players.

#396
addiction21

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BouncyFrag wrote...

Kind of goes against the point of a discussion board where people discuss things as opposed to telling people to goggle it as if they should have known better.


People are discussing it.

People have been discussing this very thing since the inception of this board and the Devs at BioWare have added their input many times, in multiple threads, spanning all the releases the BSN covers.
 
If you are interested in what they have to say then you can easily look it up.

What else do you expect of them? They are not required to come to any "hotbutton" topic. They are just as human as you or me so maybe they see the same topic they have spoken about and just roll their eyes and ignore. Maybe they are on a holiday break.

#397
Bleachrude

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Il Divo wrote...

Which is odd because it makes Bioware more at risk of the "stealing base content" argument. If it's integrated well into the main game, people will say Bioware ripped out content from the base purchase. If there is no integration period, people complain about a lack of quality.


Well that's true unfortunately as it extends to not just charactes but actual missions. Many think Leviathan and Citadel should've been part of the main-game but ironically many of the complaints lodged against Omega WAS the relative "closed" nature of the DLC (didn't incorporate any of the crew and wasn't referenced by any of the crew later on unlike Leviathan).

I  thought Zaeed was a waste since other than his loyalty/recruitment mission, he doesn't actually DO anything and I thought it would've been a perfect time to put in a batarian.. Then again, that complain could be launched at all the ME2 companions since compared to the interaction in the Dragon age series  and in ME3, they didn't really have much to say and had no interaction among themselves.

#398
AresKeith

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Bleachrude wrote...

I  thought Zaeed was a waste since other than his loyalty/recruitment mission, he doesn't actually DO anything and I thought it would've been a perfect time to put in a batarian.. Then again, that complain could be launched at all the ME2 companions since compared to the interaction in the Dragon age series  and in ME3, they didn't really have much to say and had no interaction among themselves.


Well both Zaeed and Kasumi both had cut dialog content

#399
The Twilight God

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leaguer of one wrote...

Right ... Bacause Zaeed and Shale cost us so muck...Oh wait, the was no cost for new purshages of the games. Yep, their is a way to do day one dlc with out nickeal and diming the customer... Who'd of thought?

The problem here is that their is a right way to do day one dlc and you won't acknpwlege it. Sure, there is bad ways to do it Like Javik with everyone paid extra for it to get it but the anwser to solving that is easy. Don't buy it. That's the only thing a person can do to stop badly done dlc.

And the fact remains this content would of never seen the light of day with out dlc any way. It's still an extra.


It being used as a means to get pre-orders is not a good thing imo. And there are plenty of others who DO have to pay extra for it if they want to full game. The subject here is not any DLC, but Day 1 DLC. It isn't extra if it is developed from scratch with the rest of the game and intentionally withheld. You can call D1DLC extra, sure, but in the context of this thread it is cut material.

#400
FaWa

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I (obviously) prefer the free Shale-style DLC. But I do think they went above and beyond with ME3's day 1 DLC.

I mean, Javik brought a LOT to ME3, like it or not. He was an amazing character to have around. No other DLC companions have been like that. Most are just filler and under developed. Being DLC is the kiss of death as far as being a developed character across multiple games goes. Javik, being introduced in the last game, was the most developed any DLC character has ever been. So yea I think that was worth the money. 

Modifié par FaWa, 26 décembre 2013 - 03:25 .