750 réponses à ce sujet

[Bleachrude]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

What I still can't get over is that they are selling ideas that they didn't consider good enough for the original product during production. You're seriously going to try to sell me subpar stuff on top of me buying your product on release? Haha, no.

Don't be crazy. They intentionally put subpar stuff in the retail price, so that you have to buy the good stuff as DLC.

Which explains why Pinnacle Station is considered not just the BEST bit of ME1 but also the best ME storyéDLC product across the trilogy 

[GnusmasTHX]

Bleachrude wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

What I still can't get over is that they are selling ideas that they didn't consider good enough for the original product during production. You're seriously going to try to sell me subpar stuff on top of me buying your product on release? Haha, no.

Don't be crazy. They intentionally put subpar stuff in the retail price, so that you have to buy the good stuff as DLC.

Which explains why Pinnacle Station is considered not just the BEST bit of ME1 but also the best ME storyéDLC product across the trilogy 

See, we know whats up.

[LinksOcarina]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Guns wrote...

If its available on day 1 it should be part of the base game whether that means it being on disc or a free download.

Why?

Because, to quote Brent Knowles (the Lead Designer for The Stone Priosner), Paid D1DLC is "tacky."

Because it is. Yes, we all realize the devs need to keep the lights on, but it just screams of "we want to squeeze a few more pennies out of you." Yes, that's not 100% the reality, but that is the perception of many gamers. Which is a tacky way to have people view you. 

considering Knowles used Day one DLC twice (Jade Empire, which is really bonus material but its still technically DLC, and Dragon Age: Origins) I don't know if I would use him as a good example, even if he did change his mind on how DLC works. 

Still, he is right in the end, the perception of things is all thats hinging on it, when it frankly shouldn't even be a factor in any of this, since it leads to misinformation and all of the bull**** we keep seeing.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

I would say he never changed his mind on Paid D1DLC, since the content for Jade as life and DA:O was free. Again, I did clarify he said that about PAID D1DLC, not free versions of it. Jade Empire have away their extra character with all Limited Edition XBox copies, which were free with a pre-order (and all copies sold in Canada were Limited Edition, for the record). Then the PC aversion included this material for free in all versions of the game. And DA:O and the Stone Prisoner DLC is a widely enough known example to know it was free as well.

So I fail to see a disconnect between his stated philosophy in 2012 about ME3 and his actual practices.

[Ninja Stan]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

What I still can't get over is that they are selling ideas that they didn't consider good enough for the original product during production. You're seriously going to try to sell me subpar stuff on top of me buying your product on release? Haha, no.

That's not what's happening, no matter how many times some gamers in this community say it. These days, for many games, DLC is content that is planned from the outset to be DLC. DLC has to be good enough to encourage people to buy it, after all, and it wouldn't do to have "subpar stuff" as DLC.

Whether you like the DLC content or not is another thing entirely.

[Maria Caliban]

There's tons of content that's scrapped during production.

Have you ever played BioShock: Infinite? Ken Levine once said that they ended up scrapping 40% of the game.

[Bleachrude]

Maria Caliban wrote...

There's tons of content that's scrapped during production.

Have you ever played BioShock: Infinite? Ken Levine once said that they ended up scrapping 40% of the game.

*LOL*

Hell, you don't have to go outside of Bioware. Take a look at Dragon Age: Origins.

There's on-disc a voice file with Loghain AND Alistair that takes place during Return to Ostagar.  So Return to Ostagar had been thought up/considered early enough in the life cycle of the game production but BEFORE the decision was made to make the Loghain/Alistair a binary choice.

There's scenes  where you could give Morrigan to the templars (before the Dark Ritual was even thought of probably), a questline with Jowan etc and these things also appear in other Bioware products (dumpster diving Bioware RPGs will always bring up a whole rash of interesting things - did you know that at one point BW considered (and actually recorded voicework) where you could save BOTH Ash and Kaidan in Mass Effect 1?)

[LinksOcarina]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

I would say he never changed his mind on Paid D1DLC, since the content for Jade as life and DA:O was free. Again, I did clarify he said that about PAID D1DLC, not free versions of it. Jade Empire have away their extra character with all Limited Edition XBox copies, which were free with a pre-order (and all copies sold in Canada were Limited Edition, for the record). Then the PC aversion included this material for free in all versions of the game. And DA:O and the Stone Prisoner DLC is a widely enough known example to know it was free as well.

So I fail to see a disconnect between his stated philosophy in 2012 about ME3 and his actual practices.

Stone prisoner was only free for those who bought new, and was priced at $15.00 for everyone who didn't pick up a new copy of Origins. 

In a weird way it was more expensive if you are someone who only purchases used games than Mass Effect 3, which was only $10 for From Ashes. 

I wouldn't say there is a disconnect, but I can't help but point out that he still did it too. The bonus was that it was also available for free, which in the end is the only difference from 2009 and 2012. 

Now if they do it again for $70...then its still cheap considering pricing back in the day, but who knows in the end. We shall see. 

[Fast Jimmy]

^

Free for new copies is free, in my eyes. There's a big difference from charging for content on top of a fully priced new game and a developer attempting to get SOMETHING for a used game sale where they literally don't see a dime.

Besides, if a game is bought Used, it isn't a D1DLC sale, technically. If the developer released the first DLC, say, three weeks later and charged, it would affect the Used game player equally as if it was available on the first day. But it wouldn't have the same level of negative fan whiplash.

I have no problem with the concept behind Project 10 Dollar. And most gamers don't seem to, either. It is when a gamer buys a full priced game and is then asked, in a nickel-and-dime method, for more money for story content on the very first day the game is on the shelves.

[Giggles_Manically]

You know I have no issue if a dev wants to sell something they worked on after the game was done, and before it hit shelves.
Find do that, sell me content that was not finalized till after the game was done.

However I take issue with some devs RIPPING content out of a game and trying to sell that. If I am paying 60 dollars for something, but they take content out to charge MORE money that is just wrong.

Like disc-locked content wrong.

[Il Divo]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I have no problem with the concept behind Project 10 Dollar. And most gamers don't seem to, either. It is when a gamer buys a full priced game and is then asked, in a nickel-and-dime method, for more money for story content on the very first day the game is on the shelves.

Which is still illogical on the fan's part. If the solution you're proposing is that Bioware simply waits before marketing that dlc, who exactly wins? Not the people who'd rather play it sooner.

[addiction21]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

However I take issue with some devs RIPPING content out of a game and trying to sell that. If I am paying 60 dollars for something, but they take content out to charge MORE money that is just wrong.

Where is it do you draw that line? Does anything that was worked on prior to the game being released count as "RIPPING" from the game?

[bzombo]

M25105 wrote...

Navasha wrote...

I like Day 1 DLC, so your very opening statement is clearly false. In fact, I hope they do MORE Day 1 DLC.

I don't want to have to wait until I have already completed the game to find new DLC being released, I would prefer all the EXTRA content there on even my very first playthrough.

The only thing wrong with day 1 DLC is the ill-conceived concept put out there by people who don't want to pay a few extra bucks for a better game, that it is somehow "cut" content. I certainly don't want companies to stop producing extra content because a few "fans" don't understand the concept behind it.

Christ... you're a walking wallet ready to be plucked.

Shale and Wardens Keep were day 1 dlc. All who preordered the DAO collector's edition got it for free. No one's wallet was "plucked".

[bzombo]

ARTHURIUSS wrote...

Navasha wrote...

I like Day 1 DLC, so your very opening statement is clearly false. In fact, I hope they do MORE Day 1 DLC.

I don't want to have to wait until I have already completed the game to find new DLC being released, I would prefer all the EXTRA content there on even my very first playthrough.

The only thing wrong with day 1 DLC is the ill-conceived concept put out there by people who don't want to pay a few extra bucks for a better game, that it is somehow "cut" content. I certainly don't want companies to stop producing extra content because a few "fans" don't understand the concept behind it.

Well, using time/manpower/ w/e to make dlc before the game's even out, to me reeks of greediness and I stick by my opening statement because DAY 1 DLC is either cut content or effort/resources that should have gone into making the base game better or more polished.

Let me put it this way, wouldn't you have been happier to play that extra content without paying more for it? Why is there extra content before the game's even released? How do you deem the content is extra when the game hasn't even released? How do you justify having a divide in game expeiences on Day 1. Nothing legally wrong of course but IMO it is a revoltingly unethical business practice of getting the extra dime out of your fanbase.

I coul be wrong, but I believe when developers start on day 1 dlc, the original game has entered a "locked" phase where nothing more is done to it since it is being prepared or has already been prepared for retail packaging. That close to release there is no more coding or testing typically going on I think.

[Martyr1777]

Personally I'm not a fan of DLC, but don't lothe it like some. I would much rather go back to the days a true expansions then just a hand full of smaller stories.

One thing to keep in mind is that the DLC concept -CAN- be abused by developers. That is why I dislike it, its no different then a so called "Free to Play" game that is actually "Pay to Win". This abuse is shown clearly, I believe, but the disc locked DLC, that is not content that was fleshed out after the devs go gold, that's why its on the disc. That is what some refer to as content 'ripped' from the base game and sold separately just to make an extra dime.

I firmly believe in paying devs what they deserve/earn. But that's the key, if a dev doesn't earn it they aren't getting my money and DLC is a very slippery slope for this. It encourages devs to put in less effort for the same profit. That does not mean however that they all do that. Bioware has sort of been on the fence. They've released a LOT of different DLC for DA and ME series, but much of that has been well received as well. But it's the shear volume that starts making me less interested in it to be honest. Like if they didn't release so much of it I might be more encourages to get them, that's just perception. I also had no problem with the D1 DLC for DA:O because it was bonus content for free really but not exclusive content if you didn't qualify for the bonus. How ever, the D1 DLC for ME3, yeah don't agree with that one at all and its one of the reasons BW didn't get my money on ME3, one of the lesser ones though granted.

BW should return to the DA:O model but those were before DLC was as big as it is now, hence the expansion with Awakening and no other expansions since. The business model is changing but it is changing more for scraping together every dime just in the name of making money. Just how our society has changed, money is more important than customer satisfaction and it shows more and more in the game industry.

I will say this though, its my personal belief EA has their hand in BW's DLC decisions more then just a little, and EA is as money grubbing as you get. So I'm not putting it all on the devs.

[bzombo]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

What I still can't get over is that they are selling ideas that they didn't consider good enough for the original product during production. You're seriously going to try to sell me subpar stuff on top of me buying your product on release? Haha, no.

That's not what's happening, no matter how many times some gamers in this community say it. These days, for many games, DLC is content that is planned from the outset to be DLC. DLC has to be good enough to encourage people to buy it, after all, and it wouldn't do to have "subpar stuff" as DLC.

Whether you like the DLC content or not is another thing entirely.

Ah, the only reason I held that assumption was that I read over my time here on the forums that Javik and Shale were concepts that were originally scrapped, but they were brought back into production after the completion of the initial product. The information I read could of been wrong, of course.

I believe that Shale they ran out of time/resources under the original time and money budgets. When DLC became a reality they brought Shale back since they then had the proper time/money funding to get it done right. It wasn't cut because it was bad. It was cut because they did not have the resources to properly finish Shale.

[bzombo]

Martyr1777 wrote...

Personally I'm not a fan of DLC, but don't lothe it like some. I would much rather go back to the days a true expansions then just a hand full of smaller stories.

One thing to keep in mind is that the DLC concept -CAN- be abused by developers. That is why I dislike it, its no different then a so called "Free to Play" game that is actually "Pay to Win". This abuse is shown clearly, I believe, but the disc locked DLC, that is not content that was fleshed out after the devs go gold, that's why its on the disc. That is what some refer to as content 'ripped' from the base game and sold separately just to make an extra dime.

I firmly believe in paying devs what they deserve/earn. But that's the key, if a dev doesn't earn it they aren't getting my money and DLC is a very slippery slope for this. It encourages devs to put in less effort for the same profit. That does not mean however that they all do that. Bioware has sort of been on the fence. They've released a LOT of different DLC for DA and ME series, but much of that has been well received as well. But it's the shear volume that starts making me less interested in it to be honest. Like if they didn't release so much of it I might be more encourages to get them, that's just perception. I also had no problem with the D1 DLC for DA:O because it was bonus content for free really but not exclusive content if you didn't qualify for the bonus. How ever, the D1 DLC for ME3, yeah don't agree with that one at all and its one of the reasons BW didn't get my money on ME3, one of the lesser ones though granted.

BW should return to the DA:O model but those were before DLC was as big as it is now, hence the expansion with Awakening and no other expansions since. The business model is changing but it is changing more for scraping together every dime just in the name of making money. Just how our society has changed, money is more important than customer satisfaction and it shows more and more in the game industry.

I will say this though, its my personal belief EA has their hand in BW's DLC decisions more then just a little, and EA is as money grubbing as you get. So I'm not putting it all on the devs.

Consider that prices for games have not really gone up much the last 20 years, but the costs to make games has grown immensely. DLC is another revenue stream that helps games make a profit. That, in turn, makes it more likely we see more games.

[BlackInquisitor]

Day 1 DLCs isnt so bad. As long as it doesnt like Javik's case. That is an important character for the game. It should be included in it. But i always buy the Ultimate Edition of every games (to have all the DLCs and most of the bugs ironed it out) so that's probably why i dont think it as bad.

[addiction21]

Il Divo wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I have no problem with the concept behind Project 10 Dollar. And most gamers don't seem to, either. It is when a gamer buys a full priced game and is then asked, in a nickel-and-dime method, for more money for story content on the very first day the game is on the shelves.

Which is still illogical on the fan's part. If the solution you're proposing is that Bioware simply waits before marketing that dlc, who exactly wins? Not the people who'd rather play it sooner.

Well clearly the people who believe all day one dlc are nickel and diming or ripped from the game or etc....

On a sort of separate note I wonder how many would accept a less polished game because zots were spent on QA and programmers going over the game and properly removing all extraneous code for any cut content that would not appear in the main game.

[dearlyblvd]

BioWare + Electronic Arts:
- Day 1 DLC
- Multiple DLCs post-release, but no more Ultimate Editions
- DLC package (aka BioWare Points) costs more than the original game

There is no salvation for BioWare as long as they are with EA.

[AlanC9]

Il Divo wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I have no problem with the concept behind Project 10 Dollar. And most gamers don't seem to, either. It is when a gamer buys a full priced game and is then asked, in a nickel-and-dime method, for more money for story content on the very first day the game is on the shelves.

Which is still illogical on the fan's part. If the solution you're proposing is that Bioware simply waits before marketing that dlc, who exactly wins? Not the people who'd rather play it sooner.

Right.  Day 1 DLC makes Fast Jimmy feel bad, so Il Divo has to wait a month for DLC to keep Fast Jimmy from feeling bad. Insert more names and that's the whole argument.

(Not AlanC9, since I probably won't buy either on Day 1 or on Day 30.)

[Train00]

No.

[ImperatorMortis]

I know how you feel OP, but this is EAware we're talking about. Theirs no way they would do that. 

I'm just glad From Software isn't planning any of this nonsense with Dark Souls 2. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 28 décembre 2013 - 02:07 .

[Il Divo]

ImperatorMortis wrote...

I know how you feel OP, but this is EAware we're talking about. Theirs no way they would do that. 

I'm just glad From Software isn't planning any of this nonsense with Dark Souls 2. 

Yeah, there's nothing that says nonsense like refusing to create any post-release content period.

Which is also funny, since From themselves seemed to support the dlc style when they released Artorias of the Abyss.