Aller au contenu

Photo

Don't do Day 1 DLC


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
750 réponses à ce sujet

#451
ImperatorMortis

ImperatorMortis
  • Members
  • 2 571 messages

Il Divo wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

I know how you feel OP, but this is EAware we're talking about. Theirs no way they would do that. 

I'm just glad From Software isn't planning any of this nonsense with Dark Souls 2. 


Yeah, there's nothing that says nonsense like refusing to create any post-release content period. Image IPB

Which is also funny, since From themselves seemed to support the dlc style when they released Artorias of the Abyss.


They only released it months after, and it was a actually decent, and fleshed out DLC that answered some questions about the lore. 

The only bad thing about it was the overpowered Dark Magic spells that completely recked pvp. Artorias of the Abyss was more like an expansion anyway. Not like the day 1 DLC that adds a few short quests, a weapon, and thats the end of it. 

If From does decides to do DLC later on with Dark Souls 2 despite what they said. I know it'll actually have some substance. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 28 décembre 2013 - 02:31 .


#452
Il Divo

Il Divo
  • Members
  • 9 775 messages

ImperatorMortis wrote...

They only released it months after, and it was a actually decent, and fleshed out DLC that answered some questions about the lore. 


And by the logic of everyone in this thread regarding Javik the Prothean, they would demand that content free (on consoles at least), for answering lore questions. Amazing how fan minds work.

That aside, your assessment doesn't actually show why releasing that content months later is beneficial. So From Software released that content later when they could have released it earlier. Who exactly won in that scenario?

Modifié par Il Divo, 28 décembre 2013 - 02:41 .


#453
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

AlanC9 wrote...
Right.  Day 1 DLC makes Fast Jimmy feel bad, so Il Divo has to wait a month for DLC to keep Fast Jimmy from feeling bad. Insert more names and that's the whole argument.

(Not AlanC9, since I probably won't buy either on Day 1 or on Day 30.)


On a regular game, i.e., not a Bioware game or an RPG I like, the absence of Day 1 DLC loses the company money. I don't care much for most games, so if I play them I'll play them once and then I'm good. Day 30 DLC is just content I won't care to pay for because I'll be done with the game by that point (unless its post-release content like Daud's stuff in Dishonoured). 

#454
ImperatorMortis

ImperatorMortis
  • Members
  • 2 571 messages

Il Divo wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

They only released it months after, and it was a actually decent, and fleshed out DLC that answered some questions about the lore. 


And by the logic of everyone in this thread regarding Javik the Prothean, they would demand that content free (on consoles at least), for answering lore questions. Amazing how fan minds work.

That aside, your assessment doesn't actually show why releasing that content months later is beneficial. So From Software released that content later when they could have released it earlier. Who exactly won in that scenario?


It shows that they're not money grubbing? Also the Javik DLC was pretty damn short, and the Artorious DLC was a friggen expansion. 

It added a whole new area, tons of new bosses like the optional boss Kalameet, a ring that could be used that dropped for Kalameet making you take extra damage. Essentially give you a very hard mode in future NG+, an arena, tons of new weapons, and armor. 

Not to mention this awesome opening scene with Sif. 



Not all that comparable imo. 

#455
Eurypterid

Eurypterid
  • Members
  • 4 668 messages

ImperatorMortis wrote...

I know how you feel OP, but this is EAware we're talking about. Theirs no way they would do that. 

I'm just glad From Software isn't planning any of this nonsense with Dark Souls 2. 


Instead, maybe they're putting their efforts towards an actual playable version for the PC this time...

#456
ghostzodd

ghostzodd
  • Members
  • 629 messages

Eurypterid wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

I know how you feel OP, but this is EAware we're talking about. Theirs no way they would do that. 

I'm just glad From Software isn't planning any of this nonsense with Dark Souls 2. 


Instead, maybe they're putting their efforts towards an actual playable version for the PC this time...

http://kotaku.com/dark-souls-iis-pc-port-will-be-better-1486815319

#457
Il Divo

Il Divo
  • Members
  • 9 775 messages

ImperatorMortis wrote...

It shows that they're not money grubbing? Also the Javik DLC was pretty damn short, and the Artorious DLC was a friggen expansion. 


How? You still have to prove this. Who wins from developers purposely waiting to release content? If dlc is finished a week after the main game launches, Bioware should purposely hold off because some fans will demand it be released day one?

It added a whole new area, tons of new bosses like the optional boss Kalameet, a ring that could be used that dropped for Kalameet making you take extra damage. Essentially give you a very hard mode in future NG+, an arena, tons of new weapons, and armor. 
 


And Javik added a whole host of new cut-scenes and character interactions, which based on Bioware's statements regarding the extended cut at least is some of the most resource-intensive content to design.

This goes back to a point I made a couple pages back regarding cost/benefit analysis. If you're claiming Artorias of the Abyss is a better deal for your money, you're probably right. But if consumers are so obsessed only with getting the best deals, they wouldn't be visiting movie theaters ever ($8+ for a 1 time movie is a horrible deal), they wouldn't order food at diners, and they wouldn't be purchasing Spec Ops the Line, a six hour game, compared to Skyrim, with hundreds of hours of content.

You're advocating Artorias of the Abyss as following the expansion model, while also ignoring that expansions are often a rip off compared to the base game. For $15, did Artorias provide a quarter of Dark Souls' content? Not even close.

Modifié par Il Divo, 28 décembre 2013 - 12:23 .


#458
ImperatorMortis

ImperatorMortis
  • Members
  • 2 571 messages

ghostzodd wrote...

Eurypterid wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

I know how you feel OP, but this is EAware we're talking about. Theirs no way they would do that. 

I'm just glad From Software isn't planning any of this nonsense with Dark Souls 2. 


Instead, maybe they're putting their efforts towards an actual playable version for the PC this time...

http://kotaku.com/dark-souls-iis-pc-port-will-be-better-1486815319


This. Also Dark Souls on PC was playable. If you were using a controller, which for this type of game you should be using one regardless. 

#459
Eurypterid

Eurypterid
  • Members
  • 4 668 messages

ImperatorMortis wrote...


This. Also Dark Souls on PC was playable. If you were using a controller, which for this type of game you should be using one regardless. 



First off, ny earlier comment was more tongue in cheek. I'm well aware of what they say they're going to do for the new game.

Second: horsecrap. They sold the game as a PC port and as such, it should work with PC controls. I bought the game and found it completely unplayable 'out of the box' due to the crappy porting. I saw nothing in the game description warning PC players they should buy a controller for the game (and it's ludicrous to expect someone to go out and buy a different controller to play a game on their chosen platform).

My point is, don't be so quick to point to From Software as some kind of paragon in gaming. Seeing the mess they made of the PC port of Dark Souls, no matter what they say they intend to do, I'll be waiting for some time before even considering Dark Souls 2, since I felt I was basically ripped off on the first one.

#460
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 720 messages

In Exile wrote...

On a regular game, i.e., not a Bioware game or an RPG I like, the absence of Day 1 DLC loses the company money. I don't care much for most games, so if I play them I'll play them once and then I'm good. Day 30 DLC is just content I won't care to pay for because I'll be done with the game by that point (unless its post-release content like Daud's stuff in Dishonoured). 


For the regular games it sounds like you're suffering from an even worse utility loss from delaying the DLC. For games you play multiple times you only lose utility from the playthroughs before you can buy the DLC, but if there's only one playthrough it's a 100% loss.

I had a similar phenomenon with Shale for DA:O. I was on dial-up at the time, and by the time the DLC finished downloading I was already at the Landsmeet. But I had Shale for all subsequent runs, so I only lost 1/5 of the value, and dropping.

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 décembre 2013 - 04:19 .


#461
Eternal Phoenix

Eternal Phoenix
  • Members
  • 8 471 messages

Eurypterid wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...


This. Also Dark Souls on PC was playable. If you were using a controller, which for this type of game you should be using one regardless. 



First off, ny earlier comment was more tongue in cheek. I'm well aware of what they say they're going to do for the new game.

Second: horsecrap. They sold the game as a PC port and as such, it should work with PC controls. I bought the game and found it completely unplayable 'out of the box' due to the crappy porting. I saw nothing in the game description warning PC players they should buy a controller for the game (and it's ludicrous to expect someone to go out and buy a different controller to play a game on their chosen platform).

My point is, don't be so quick to point to From Software as some kind of paragon in gaming. Seeing the mess they made of the PC port of Dark Souls, no matter what they say they intend to do, I'll be waiting for some time before even considering Dark Souls 2, since I felt I was basically ripped off on the first one.


Which is why relying on a PC for gaming makes you a peasant.

Glorious master hybrid console-PC race for the win!

Regardless of their muck up with the poor PC port that hardly makes From Software a bad company since they're still supporting all versions of the game just like with Demon's Souls. Not to mention they brought the game to PC due to the petition of PC gamers in the first place while another company such as Capcom still won't bring Dragon's Dogma to PC despite a similar petition.

Then there were all the community events of Demon's Souls and the support for both games continuing for years and yes, the fact that From Software aren't scamming people with day one DLC and want to deliver a full game as opposed to a game where they cut content and then throw it in a collector's edition or release it a month later.

So yes I support the OP. I mean why would anyone like day one DLC? It's a horrible thing. Throw in some extra items or something but no more cutting out important story content (as was the case with the Return to Ostagar DLC and that prothean guy in ME3).

#462
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 720 messages
is "scamming" the right word for an announced and understood policy? I know you want to say bad things about Day 1 DLC, but this doesn't apply unless you think gamers are idiots.

#463
Il Divo

Il Divo
  • Members
  • 9 775 messages

Elton John is dead wrote...


Regardless of their muck up with the poor PC port that hardly makes From Software a bad company since they're still supporting all versions of the game just like with Demon's Souls. Not to mention they brought the game to PC due to the petition of PC gamers in the first place while another company such as Capcom still won't bring Dragon's Dogma to PC despite a similar petition.


I don't think PC fans wanted a crappy console port. They shouldn't have to mention that in the petition. It seems very easily implied.

So yes I support the OP. I mean why would anyone like day one DLC? It's a horrible thing. Throw in some extra items or something but no more cutting out important story content (as was the case with the Return to Ostagar DLC and that prothean guy in ME3).


So Bioware better start waiting one month before they sell Javik/Return to Ostagar?

I mean, why wouldn't people want additional content at launch for a game they might enjoy? 

Modifié par Il Divo, 28 décembre 2013 - 05:39 .


#464
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

AlanC9 wrote...
For the regular games it sounds like you're suffering from an even worse utility loss from delaying the DLC. For games you play multiple times you only lose utility from the playthroughs before you can buy the DLC, but if there's only one playthroughs it's a 100% loss.  

I had a similar phenomenon with Shale for DA:O. I was on dial-up at the time, and by the time the DLC finished downloading I was already at the Landsmeet. But I had Shale for all subsequent runs, so I only lost 1/5 of the value, and dropping.


Pretty much. I didn't like ME3 very much, so I only played through it once. As a result I never purchased Leviathan, Omega, or Citadel. Bioware lost out. Javik I (essentially) paid for through the CE (or UE, or whatever it was called). 

I might have liked ME3 more with the DLC - especially Citadel which people seem to love - but the first experience through the game was enough to have me not want to replay. 

#465
Airell

Airell
  • Members
  • 288 messages
If they take out a bug infested side quest so that they could go gold. than while the game is being published fix the side quest than release it as a day one I understand.
but to take out a perfectly fine side quest to make a profit yuck.

#466
Fast Jimmy

Fast Jimmy
  • Members
  • 17 939 messages

In Exile wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Right.  Day 1 DLC makes Fast Jimmy feel bad, so Il Divo has to wait a month for DLC to keep Fast Jimmy from feeling bad. Insert more names and that's the whole argument.

(Not AlanC9, since I probably won't buy either on Day 1 or on Day 30.)


On a regular game, i.e., not a Bioware game or an RPG I like, the absence of Day 1 DLC loses the company money. I don't care much for most games, so if I play them I'll play them once and then I'm good. Day 30 DLC is just content I won't care to pay for because I'll be done with the game by that point (unless its post-release content like Daud's stuff in Dishonoured). 


But see, this the folly... you say "not having D1DLC means I am less likely buy that DLC... unless that DLC is good for a base game I like." Doesn't that say that having a good base game and a good piece of DLC is a better long term strategy than trying to market a high attach rate to D1DLC where the consumer doesn't have full insight into the quality of EITHER of the products (the base game OR the D1DLC)?

And I'd also backtrack to another fact I have discussed in previous conversations... D1DLC simply doesn't make these companies that much more, especially compared to how much flak it gets the company. 

The From Ashes DLC, one of the most heavily criticized D1DLCs Bioware has released, had an attachment rate of close to 50%, making it also one of the most successful. One would say "wow, this must have made them a boatload of money."

Yet, in reality, 50% of ME3 sales (estimated 4.5 million) means it sold close to 2.25 million. 

At $10 a sale, this would mean $22 million in revenue. Of course, they have to pay a cut to MS/Steam or the digital distributor, which is likely around 25%. And there is, of course, the cost to actually develop the DLC itself, which we can assume to be at least 50%... after all, anything less would mean that most of the cost in finishing and creating the DLC would be occuring BEFORE the game went Gold, which has very unpleasant implications.  

So, assuming that, we're looking at a hair under $6 million in profit. 

Is is that worth it? Is that worth the hit to PR, the salaries paid in trying to put out the bad press, in combatting the consumer dissent, in planning future releases to circumvent these negative feelings?  

Meanwhile, 4.5 million sales at $60 a piece results in almost a quarter of a billion in revenue. Assuming the same 25% profit margin, that still results in $67.5 million, ten times more in profit. Does focusing on more base game sales, maybe even giving away a D1DPC for free to new copies in order to promote less Used game sales not make more sense than engaging in practices that the most dedicated fans paying more, rather than rewarding them with free content that could generate better word of mouth, which earns more new game sales (with higher margins)?

#467
L. Han

L. Han
  • Members
  • 1 878 messages
^
I think the cut only really applies with Microsoft. I doubt EA charges their own division money for releasing DLC on their platform, Origin.

I think the real question (or dilemma) in this: Is it worth getting some flak for profit or not getting profit and possibly get good publicity (unlikely) or nothing happens. Let's be honest here, if BioWare had, added more content together with the main package instead of sectioning off for a DLC, people wouldn't care.

Edit: Typos

Modifié par Rickets, 29 décembre 2013 - 01:48 .


#468
Fast Jimmy

Fast Jimmy
  • Members
  • 17 939 messages

AlanC9 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

On a regular game, i.e., not a Bioware game or an RPG I like, the absence of Day 1 DLC loses the company money. I don't care much for most games, so if I play them I'll play them once and then I'm good. Day 30 DLC is just content I won't care to pay for because I'll be done with the game by that point (unless its post-release content like Daud's stuff in Dishonoured). 


For the regular games it sounds like you're suffering from an even worse utility loss from delaying the DLC. For games you play multiple times you only lose utility from the playthroughs before you can buy the DLC, but if there's only one playthroughs it's a 100% loss.

I had a similar phenomenon with Shale for DA:O. I was on dial-up at the time, and by the time the DLC finished downloading I was already at the Landsmeet. But I had Shale for all subsequent runs, so I only lost 1/5 of the value, and dropping.



Did you buy the game new? If so, you would have gotten Shale free, which means your value is a ratio of a $0 price tag... which can only be calculated as a limit as your value approaches $0, it would be equal to infinity, regardless of if you played through the DLC once of a hundred times. 

Free D1DLC for new copies is good D1C. 

#469
Fast Jimmy

Fast Jimmy
  • Members
  • 17 939 messages

Rickets wrote...

^
I think the cut only really applies with Microsoft. I doubt EA charges their own division money for releasing DLC on their platform, Origin.


I think they would. EA is still EA, but different divisions often pay each other for services in large corporations. 

It may not be as large of a cut as they would do for MS, or Sony or even GameStop (who is now in the business of selling DLC codes)... but the same could be said of buying digital copies of the base games, as well, so the margins would be equally beneficial for the base game in that part of the equation as well. 

#470
franciscoamell

franciscoamell
  • Members
  • 794 messages
That would be nice. :)

#471
Il Divo

Il Divo
  • Members
  • 9 775 messages

Fast Jimmy wrote...

But see, this the folly... you say "not having D1DLC means I am less likely buy that DLC... unless that DLC is good for a base game I like." Doesn't that say that having a good base game and a good piece of DLC is a better long term strategy than trying to market a high attach rate to D1DLC where the consumer doesn't have full insight into the quality of EITHER of the products (the base game OR the D1DLC)?


The mistake is you're treating the good base game, the good piece of dlc, and the day 1 dlc like they're mutually exclusive. That's not the case. The consumer isn't required to buy the dlc. Now if self control is a real problem for them, I think that indicates Bioware has an effective product on their hands.

Meanwhile, 4.5 million sales at $60 a piece results in almost a quarter of a billion in revenue. Assuming the same 25% profit margin, that still results in $67.5 million, ten times more in profit. Does focusing on more base game sales, maybe even giving away a D1DPC for free to new copies in order to promote less Used game sales not make more sense than engaging in practices that the most dedicated fans paying more, rather than rewarding them with free content that could generate better word of mouth, which earns more new game sales (with higher margins)?


The problem here is you're misconstruing word of mouth. People didn't say "Hey guys, you have to check out Dragon Age: Origins! It's this game where Bioware gave free day 1 dlc!". They said "Hey guys, you have to check out Dragon Age: Origins, it's this fantastic game for x, y, and z reasons". Provided you're making a great base game, people will buy it, day 1 dlc or not. If you're making a crappy product, people might think you're a nice company for giving free content out, but they're still going to walk out on you.

It's also misconstruing what the end result of your position will be. If people really think day 1 dlc is a dirty practice, what exactly do you imagine is the end result? If I were in Bioware's shoes and thought day 1 dlc was hurting sales, I'd either postpone the release, or simply provide less base content. Bioware games can be upwards of 50-60 hours of content, depending on the player. Assuming their game doesn't suck, they can get away with scrapping a couple hours of play time and still come across as a more substantial experience than other games out there.

Modifié par Il Divo, 29 décembre 2013 - 02:02 .


#472
Fast Jimmy

Fast Jimmy
  • Members
  • 17 939 messages

The mistake is you're treating the good base game, the good piece of dlc, and the day 1 dlc like they're mutually exclusive. That's not the case. The consumer isn't required to buy the dlc. Now if self control is a real problem for them, I think that indicates Bioware has an effective product on their hands. 


I'm not... but the idea that D1DLC must be available when the player first plays the game, otherwise the developer runs the risk of losing money ASSUMES the player buys the DLC without playing the base game originally. Attaching it pre-orders, let alone forcing players to pre-order Collector's Editions (pre-paying for their DLC, in all practicality) results in buying both base game and DLC blindly.

The problem here is you're misconstruing word of mouth. People didn't say "Hey guys, you have to check out Dragon Age: Origins! It's this game where Bioware gave free day 1 dlc!". They said "Hey guys, you have to check out Dragon Age: Origins, it's this fantastic game for x, y, and z reasons". Provided you're making a great base game, people will buy it, day 1 dlc or not. If you're making a crappy product, people might think you're a nice company for giving free content out, but they're still going to walk out on you.


No, I'd say it's more along the lines of "hey guys, you should play this game DA:O, it's fantastic." "Oh, really? I guess I'll borrow it from you or buy it Used, since it has been out 10 Weeks now." "No, it comes with this really cool piece of DLC where you can add this awesome character for free if you buy the game new." "Oh, that sounds pretty awesome - let me go pick it up." And, then, DA:O sales hit their highest sales in a week on Week 10 instead of Week 1. Not Used sales, but New. Which is more money for the developer.

It's also misconstruing what the end result of your position will be. If people really think day 1 dlc is a dirty practice, what exactly do you imagine is the end result? If I were in Bioware's shoes and thought day 1 dlc was hurting sales, I'd either postpone the release, or simply provide less base content. Bioware games can be upwards of 50-60 hours of content, depending on the player. Assuming their game doesn't suck, they can get away with scrapping a couple hours of play time and still come across as a more substantial experience than other games out there.


To clarify, it is implied that people have a problem with PAID D1DLC. Cutting the content completely is definitely one method of stopping that, but so is giving away that DLC for free to incentivize new game sales.

Paying $10 extra for a few hours content may be worth it for some gamers, but it will tick off a number of other ones. The real danger is giving possible consumers a reason to go into your base game (or even skip your base game entirely) because of a practice they find distasteful with the only payoff being a small portion of increased revenue from the gamers who don't mind as much.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 29 décembre 2013 - 02:16 .


#473
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

Fast Jimmy wrote...
But see, this the folly... you say "not having D1DLC means I am less likely buy that DLC... unless that DLC is good for a base game I like." Doesn't that say that having a good base game and a good piece of DLC is a better long term strategy than trying to market a high attach rate to D1DLC where the consumer doesn't have full insight into the quality of EITHER of the products (the base game OR the D1DLC)?


No. Bioshock Infinite was an award winning game. But I never bought DLC for it because I was done on release and had no interest in replaying it. Dues Ex HR was an award winning game. But I never really felt like I wanted to replay it, so I never bought any DLC for it.

The DLC could be great. The game could be great. But if I'm done with the game and don't want to replay it, then the DLC is quality is meaningless, as is the quality of the game. 

I really liked Skyrim, but I never bought a DLC for it because I didn't care for more "Skyrim" content by the time it came out. Would I have goten it at Day 1? Maybe - it would have been a tempting offer, and I would have asked myself whether the DLC content would be more fun than other base-game content. 

So, assuming that, we're looking at a hair under $6 million in profit. 

Is is that worth it? Is that worth the hit to PR, the salaries paid in trying to put out the bad press, in combatting the consumer dissent, in planning future releases to circumvent these negative feelings?  


But do these things exist? Is this grumbling actually going to translate into losses on the base game? Will people refuse to purcahse a game in substantial numbers if it has Day 1 DLC they will never purchase? We don't have the empirical market data to actually put a price on something as amorphous as "consumer dissent". 

Not to mention that if DLC is done on a different budget, with the sunk cost-associated with the base game (in terms of assets, VO. etc.). Your 50% figure as a result seems insanely unrealistic, and not because a game company somehow tried to cheat consumers, but because the software and time etc. needed to make the game is already an investment. 

It's like running an OT shift at a plan to produce more goods for a bigger order. The OT is a cost in terms of manpower, but it makes no sense to double count the cost of building the plant. 

Meanwhile, 4.5 million sales at $60 a piece results in almost a quarter of a billion in revenue. Assuming the same 25% profit margin, that still results in $67.5 million, ten times more in profit. Does focusing on more base game sales, maybe even giving away a D1DPC for free to new copies in order to promote less Used game sales not make more sense than engaging in practices that the most dedicated fans paying more, rather than rewarding them with free content that could generate better word of mouth, which earns more new game sales (with higher margins)? 


What does it mean to "focus on base-game" sales? Does that mean adding mutiplayer, and fundamentally changing what DA is like as a game? To me, it seems that the market has clearly spoken on there being a cap on how much Bioware RPGs - even with MP and with action combat - can move. It's a very popular style of RPG, but not popular enough to survive increasing development costs. Just like the isometric RPG, which is a good investment up to a point - which is what we see with PE. 

Or putting it another way: when Bioware moved from BG, to KoTOR, and to ME, they focused on "improving the base game", but that was a direction that current fans of BG did not appreciate. If Day 1 DLC meant that Bioware (monetizing the same users) could stay with one direction, isn' that worthwhile?

People talk a lot about being willing to pay more than $60 for a game they really love, which has the features they want vs. the market popular MP FPS, and Day 1 DLC is exactly that: a way to pay more for a product to stay the same. 

Modifié par In Exile, 29 décembre 2013 - 03:04 .


#474
Fast Jimmy

Fast Jimmy
  • Members
  • 17 939 messages

No. Bioshock Infinite was an award winning game. But I never bought DLC for it because I was done on release and had no interest in replaying it. Dues Ex HR was an award winning game. But I never really felt like I wanted to replay it, so I never bought any DLC for it.

The DLC could be great. The game could be great. But if I'm done with the game and don't want to replay it, then the DLC is quality is meaningless, as is the quality of the game.

I really liked Skyrim, but I never bought a DLC for it because I didn't care for more "Skyrim" content by the time it came out. Would I have goten it at Day 1? Maybe - it would have been a tempting offer, and I would have asked myself whether the DLC content would be more fun than other base-game content.


I guess my difference is that I place VERY HIGH value on replay value. Perhaps more emphasis on that than anything else, even story and gameplay in many cases.

To me, having a great base game means I'll want to got though three or four more playthroughs as soon as I get done with my first. Bioshock Infinite and DE:HR are exceptionally linear and lack replay value to me. Skyrim has a ton of content, but has a minimal amount of divergence based on choices or character build.

DA:O, on the other hand, had very different intros based on your Origins, as well as multiple choices that resulted in different outcomes in the main quests, and endings that have lots of variability based on decisions and how smaller decisions, like companion approval or side quests, paint a very intriguing picture.

That level of difference that can be seen and felt from one playthrough to the next is what I mean when talking about a good RPG.

But do these things exist? Is this grumbling actually going to translate into losses on the base game? Will people refuse to purcahse a game in substantial numbers if it has Day 1 DLC they will never purchase? We don't have the empirical market data to actually put a price on something as amorphous as "consumer dissent".


I'd say it is completely impossible to truly track the amount of sales lost. It would require EA knowing who to ask "why didn't you buy this game" and successfully identifying someone who would have bought, say, DA:I but didn't because of ME3's D1DLC. That would be an exceptionally difficult task... but it would only take less than half a million more new sales copies to fall into this category for it to completely eclipse that of D1DLC revenue. Even less than that still saves money in battling brand value loss. And let's not forget that even if it doesn't translate to half a million for DA:I, it certainly could reach that total between DA:I and MENext (where the failure of ME3 are certain to take a toll more heavily).

Point being - it would be incredibly hard to track this loss of brand value. But that doesn't mean it can or should be ignored. Brand value is one of the most powerful and valuable intangible assets a company can have. And gaining it back after losing it is one of the hardest tasks a company can do.

People talk a lot about being willing to pay more than $60 for a game they really love, which has the features they want vs. the market popular MP FPS, and Day 1 DLC is exactly that: a way to pay more for a product to stay the same.


My problem with this is twofold.

One, as I discussed earlier, a higher sticker price would result in a higher bad being set for the entire game. An extra $10 for more content would not be the case with a $70 game... it would be expected that the game as a whole to be raised. Yes, this is unfair and possibly even a little counter-effective, but it is the industry's fault for not steadily increasing costs while their costs increased. Now a (much) higher price tag is needed but the market will resist not only big jumps in price, but ANY jumps in price, because the price has been kept the same for so long.

But my second, real problem is not just that D1DLC (or even microtransactions) becomes the norm, but that D1DLCS become the norm.

One companion being released on Day 1 is controversial. Yet what if there were two? Kasumi and Zaeed appeared to both have at least had some work done during the base game development of ME2, so what if they both had been released and sold separately on Day 1? What if there were three? Or if Omega, From Ashes and Leviathan were all put out on ME3's Day One?

Point being - the industry escalates everything. Back when DLC was first introduced, "doomsday" sayers were called crazy for saying "today, it is just a weapo pack or costume change... yet how long before them start selling story content? How long before they cut parts of the main game out and selling the unlock codes as separate?" Those people were called crazy just five years ago, yet the industry is doing these things right now. How long before a fifth of the game has to be bought separately on Day One? A fourth? A third?

The only obstacles for developers to do this is complaints. Otherwise, developers like Capcom have shown they have no qualms in doing this as much as possible to increase their revenues. So why would the practice not progress to the next logical steps for companies to make more than what is offered today?

Yet... free D1DLC? That will never be profitable to include more than one. Even if you could create two or three sets of this content, it wouldn't benefit you to have it all ready on Day 1, since it would just be more to give away if that was the industry norm.

Having free D1DLC be the expected practice puts a limit and cap on the practice from becoming anything more than a driver to more New sales, where developers take it on the chin the worst with losses to Used and pirated copies. Opening D1DLC to a revenue stream where the only limits are how obligated a player feels to buy it to make them feel they are getting the "complete" experience as well as how many pieces of DLC you can have ready to sell on the first day opens the floodgates for lots of nasty, dangerous situations.



Also... if costs for producing the DLC are LESS than 50%, then developers should be charging less, pure and simple. If it costs them under $5 to generate the DLC, then it shouldn't be more then $7.50. Charging $10 because it is a round number when it results in the price tag being over a 25% higher is an incorrigible practice for a product that never goes on sale.

#475
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 720 messages

Fast Jimmy wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

For the regular games it sounds like you're suffering from an even worse utility loss from delaying the DLC. For games you play multiple times you only lose utility from the playthroughs before you can buy the DLC, but if there's only one playthroughs it's a 100% loss.

I had a similar phenomenon with Shale for DA:O. I was on dial-up at the time, and by the time the DLC finished downloading I was already at the Landsmeet. But I had Shale for all subsequent runs, so I only lost 1/5 of the value, and dropping.



Did you buy the game new? If so, you would have gotten Shale free, which means your value is a ratio of a $0 price tag... which can only be calculated as a limit as your value approaches $0, it would be equal to infinity, regardless of if you played through the DLC once of a hundred times.


I was talking about utility, not price/performance. Are you trying to change the subject, or just not following the discussion?

I lose utility if I don't have a DLC immediately. It doesn't matter what the cause of the problem is. It could be technical, it could be Bio not releasing day 1 DLC because Day 1 DLC makes Fast Jimmy feel bad. Either way, I can't play the DLC on day 1. The more times I play the game the lower a percentage of the DLC's utility I lose, but it is never zero.

Edit: note that I lose option value even if I'm likely not going to buy the DLC. So I guess I do have a dog in this fight after all.

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 décembre 2013 - 04:36 .