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[hoorayforicecream]

Cyonan wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

I don't get too caught up on content that was cut and not released, because to be honest it happens quite a bit. If it's not there then it's not there, and we should be focusing on what is there to determine if it's the complete game experience or not.

Almost all DLC, paid or otherwise is content that was cut during production and would not be released otherwise. People who buy into the myth of the "complete game" refuse to believe that.

I assume you have actual legitimate evidence of this?

About ten years of industry experience, minus time off for good behavior. 8 shipped games across multiple genres and platforms, going as far back as the PS2 days, and a PS4/XBone title to boot.

[Cyonan]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

I don't get too caught up on content that was cut and not released, because to be honest it happens quite a bit. If it's not there then it's not there, and we should be focusing on what is there to determine if it's the complete game experience or not.

Almost all DLC, paid or otherwise is content that was cut during production and would not be released otherwise. People who buy into the myth of the "complete game" refuse to believe that.

I assume you have actual legitimate evidence of this?

About ten years of industry experience, minus time off for good behavior. 8 shipped games across multiple genres and platforms, going as far back as the PS2 days, and a PS4/XBone title to boot.

That's not actually evidence, that's me taking your word for it.

It may or may not happen, but without proof I'm not about to go around believing everything that people on the internet tell me =P

[hoorayforicecream]

Cyonan wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

I don't get too caught up on content that was cut and not released, because to be honest it happens quite a bit. If it's not there then it's not there, and we should be focusing on what is there to determine if it's the complete game experience or not.

Almost all DLC, paid or otherwise is content that was cut during production and would not be released otherwise. People who buy into the myth of the "complete game" refuse to believe that.

I assume you have actual legitimate evidence of this?

About ten years of industry experience, minus time off for good behavior. 8 shipped games across multiple genres and platforms, going as far back as the PS2 days, and a PS4/XBone title to boot.

That's not actually evidence, that's me taking your word for it.

It may or may not happen, but without proof I'm not about to go around believing everything that people on the internet tell me =P

You can take a look at the blogs I've written for evidence that I've got the experience I say I do:

Stuff like:

• The game engine FAQ
• Multiplayer and production scheduling

You can check my post history, where others (including the bioware devs) acknowledge the things I say as a member of the industry. I've also got a blog that has a whole lot of development information on it that I post to regularly. You could also probably ask Ninja Stan directly if I've got the qualifications I say I do; he knows that I know what I am talking about. 

As for evidence... well, yeah. You could plug your ears and pretend that what I'm saying is false, but without actually being part of the development process yourself, you'd have to take somebody's word for it. My experience is my evidence - I've worked on day 1 DLC, as well as day 1 patches, and I've worked on games with content that was cut near the end because we didn't have the DLC model available. 

[Addai]

Ninja Stan wrote...

While the game is in the long certification process, the game is branched so that work can begin immediately on the Day 1 patch. DLC development goes until it too needs to be completed and certified, which doesn't take as long since it's just downloading, install, and critical bug-hunting being tested. That takes maybe a week. In order to put the DLC content into the base game, you need to plan for it to be part of the base game to begin with. And if you did that, you'd still need to plan some kind of Day 1 DLC, and that makes for a very circular argument. Suffice it to say, Day 1 DLC is not (usually) content stripped from the base game to be sold as DLC later. It is content that otherwise would not see the light of day.

This is time better spent on crafting a substantial expansion where people are getting something for their money.

And I don't buy that characters like Sebastian or Javik are optional, incidental content. I didn't play ME3, but for DA2 the main plot made less sense without the DLC content there. DA2 being a rushed mess, making people pay (or pre-order long ahead of release) for it is terrible marketing. It's penny pinching and pound foolish.

[Cyonan]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
You can take a look at the blogs I've written for evidence that I've got the experience I say I do:

Stuff like:

• The game engine FAQ
• Multiplayer and production scheduling

You can check my post history, where others (including the bioware devs) acknowledge the things I say as a member of the industry. I've also got a blog that has a whole lot of development information on it that I post to regularly. You could also probably ask Ninja Stan directly if I've got the qualifications I say I do; he knows that I know what I am talking about. 

As for evidence... well, yeah. You could plug your ears and pretend that what I'm saying is false, but without actually being part of the development process yourself, you'd have to take somebody's word for it. My experience is my evidence - I've worked on day 1 DLC, as well as day 1 patches, and I've worked on games with content that was cut near the end because we didn't have the DLC model available. 

If you look at my posts you'll notice I never once said your claims are false. I have not actually even implied as such.

All I ever really did was ask you to back up a claim that you made. The experience is good, but it can only really speak for the development teams you worked on.

That says that it's a thing that happens, but I had kind of already assumed that it was in addition to DLC which was not content cut from the base game(your claim however, is that most DLC is just cut content).

[hoorayforicecream]

Cyonan wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
You can take a look at the blogs I've written for evidence that I've got the experience I say I do:

Stuff like:

• The game engine FAQ
• Multiplayer and production scheduling

You can check my post history, where others (including the bioware devs) acknowledge the things I say as a member of the industry. I've also got a blog that has a whole lot of development information on it that I post to regularly. You could also probably ask Ninja Stan directly if I've got the qualifications I say I do; he knows that I know what I am talking about. 

As for evidence... well, yeah. You could plug your ears and pretend that what I'm saying is false, but without actually being part of the development process yourself, you'd have to take somebody's word for it. My experience is my evidence - I've worked on day 1 DLC, as well as day 1 patches, and I've worked on games with content that was cut near the end because we didn't have the DLC model available. 

If you look at my posts you'll notice I never once said your claims are false. I have not actually even implied as such.

All I ever really did was ask you to back up a claim that you made. The experience is good, but it can only really speak for the development teams you worked on.

That says that it's a thing that happens, but I had kind of already assumed that it was in addition to DLC which was not content cut from the base game(your claim however, is that most DLC is just cut content).

I should amend. Day 1 DLC and most early DLC is almost guaranteed to be content that would have been cut otherwise. It's a lot easier to build content with the foundation already laid than to start from scratch. Later stuff is usually a mix of cut content and new stuff that got added in later to fill in the cracks, since the stuff that was cut wasn't finished and needed fleshing out. Sometimes old content gets repurposed for newer things, like the Tallis/Felicia Day collaboration that happened for DA2.

Anyway, you're free to believe what you want, but you've got both Stan and me telling you how things actually are, and you've got outsiders without any insider experience who refuse to believe us. If you're intent on believing someone without evidence over someone with evidence, I can't stop you. I just think it's kind of foolish to do so.

[Fast Jimmy]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I should amend. Day 1 DLC and most early DLC is almost guaranteed to be content that would have been cut otherwise. It's a lot easier to build content with the foundation already laid than to start from scratch. Later stuff is usually a mix of cut content and new stuff that got added in later to fill in the cracks, since the stuff that was cut wasn't finished and needed fleshing out. Sometimes old content gets repurposed for newer things, like the Tallis/Felicia Day collaboration that happened for DA2.

Anyway, you're free to believe what you want, but you've got both Stan and me telling you how things actually are, and you've got outsiders without any insider experience who refuse to believe us. If you're intent on believing someone without evidence over someone with evidence, I can't stop you. I just think it's kind of foolish to do so.

Yet what you and Stan are both saying is exactly what many here are claiming - that the content for the D1DLC is planned from rather early on ithe development process.

This isn't Bioware saying "man, we really wish we could have gotten Jahvik finished... rats! Well, we can finish him up after we go Gold and then make up our costs with the added charge." Its Bioware saying "Okay, we will pick out this content to be sold right alongside the main game. We'll allot the resources we would have used to finish Jahvik up and, instead, have a side quest where you save the Batarian Bible or where you recover dinosaur DNA to clone and make Krogan mounts."

Point being, this isn't Bioware investing lots of money and then running out of time to put it in the game. This is them modeling their project scheduling around creating and finishing content after going Gold because they know it is content they can sell. That's not "this would have ended up on the cutting room floor otherwise" but instead "we can finish most of this content during the base game creation, then put the finishing touches on it and charge people a fifth of the game's price to play it." 

I understand not minding paying for content that isnt' released as part of the base game, but I would hope that people can see people's misgivings with that PURPOSEFULLY being the release schedule mentality.

[Han Shot First]

Day 1 DLC doesn't bother me in the least. Fans who complain about it, are just being greedy and entitled whiners who are demanding something for nothing.

Unless a Day 1 DLC is necessary to complete a game, fans don't have a leg to stand on when complaining about a company charging extra for extras.

If a go to buy a new car, would I be in the right demanding that the dealer also include leather seats, pinstriping, an anti-theft system, chrome rims, ect included at no extra cost?

[wrdnshprd]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

For those who believe that in the concept of a "complete game"... I have three questions.

#1. If you have played it, do you consider KOTOR 2 a complete game?
#2. Do you think that Obsidian and LucasArts owe the purchasers of KOTOR 2 the actual ending content that was on the disc but never finished?
#3. If Obsidian had hypothetically been given the additional budget to actually finish the unfinished ending content that was on the disc under the condition that it would be paid day 1 DLC, would you also take them to task for it?

Keep in mind that there are no circumstances in which would you ever be able to get this finished content at no additional cost. You would either have to pay for it, or you would get the game as it was when it was shipped.

Just for clarity's sake, if you haven't played KOTOR 2 before this is what I am referring to: There was a massive amount of ending content that was unfinished and unpolished left on the disc, but unaccessible to the players because it was unfinished. Obsidian ran out of time and budget, so they cut that content. Later, the modding community managed to cobble together an unofficial patch that fixed many of the bugs in the game, as well as restored to playability most of the cut (though unfinished) content.

The only way that content would have ever seen the light of day officially and professionally done would be through additional budgeting, which the team was not given. In a similar situation today, it would most likely have come instead as paid DLC. Since such things were unavailable back then, the content was cut and the players were just never officially given that content at all.

there is a BIG difference between cutting content because it wasnt finished and PURPOSELY setting aside content as "bonus" content, releasing it day one, and then charging extra for it...  this practice has only been an issue the last few years and why we put up with it makes no sense to me.

again, i dont have a problem with DLC in general (which is very likely what the above would have been released as).  i just have a problem with it coming on day 1 as an extra charge..  and thats the key.. if bioware wants to release day 1 DLC.  THATS FINE.  just make it free "bonus" material if we buy the game new.  you know, like they've done in the past.. if they do that, problem solved and there is no issue.

[wrdnshprd]

Han Shot First wrote...

Day 1 DLC doesn't bother me in the least. Fans who complain about it, are just being greedy and entitled whiners who are demanding something for nothing.

Unless a Day 1 DLC is necessary to complete a game, fans don't have a leg to stand on when complaining about a company charging extra for extras.

If a go to buy a new car, would I be in the right demanding that the dealer also include leather seats, pinstriping, an anti-theft system, chrome rims, ect included at no extra cost?

paying $60 and expecting the FULL experience.. which is pretty much industry standard, with the exception of EA games (and maybe a couple others).. is hardly "expecting something for nothing". 

[Han Shot First]

wrdnshprd wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Day 1 DLC doesn't bother me in the least. Fans who complain about it, are just being greedy and entitled whiners who are demanding something for nothing.

Unless a Day 1 DLC is necessary to complete a game, fans don't have a leg to stand on when complaining about a company charging extra for extras.

If a go to buy a new car, would I be in the right demanding that the dealer also include leather seats, pinstriping, an anti-theft system, chrome rims, ect included at no extra cost?

paying $60 and expecting the FULL experience.. which is pretty much industry standard, with the exception of EA games (and maybe a couple others).. is hardly "expecting something for nothing". 

With all of the Dragon Age and Mass Effect games you get a 'full experience' without DLC. The games are playable and complete without them. They are by definition, extras.

If you buy a new car you spend a lot more than $60. Do you also get to demand the dealer throw in leather seats, pinstriping, an anti-theft system, and chrome rims at no extra cost? Is your new car not a 'full experience' if the dealer doesn't throw those in free of charge?

[Addai]

Han Shot First wrote...
If you buy a new car you spend a lot more than $60. Do you also get to demand the dealer throw in leather seats, pinstriping, an anti-theft system, and chrome rims at no extra cost? Is your new car not a 'full experience' if the dealer doesn't throw those in free of charge?

Yes, you can demand that. Because no one likes to be nickel and dimed. Your example isn't exactly helping the case here.

And how is it that the customer is "greedy" but not the company? Prices are always a negotiation.

[Zanallen]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Yet what you and Stan are both saying is exactly what many here are claiming - that the content for the D1DLC is planned from rather early on ithe development process.

This isn't Bioware saying "man, we really wish we could have gotten Jahvik finished... rats! Well, we can finish him up after we go Gold and then make up our costs with the added charge." Its Bioware saying "Okay, we will pick out this content to be sold right alongside the main game. We'll allot the resources we would have used to finish Jahvik up and, instead, have a side quest where you save the Batarian Bible or where you recover dinosaur DNA to clone and make Krogan mounts."

Point being, this isn't Bioware investing lots of money and then running out of time to put it in the game. This is them modeling their project scheduling around creating and finishing content after going Gold because they know it is content they can sell. That's not "this would have ended up on the cutting room floor otherwise" but instead "we can finish most of this content during the base game creation, then put the finishing touches on it and charge people a fifth of the game's price to play it." 

I understand not minding paying for content that isnt' released as part of the base game, but I would hope that people can see people's misgivings with that PURPOSEFULLY being the release schedule mentality.

From what I understand with Javik it was more like "Hey, we have this awesome character that was originally going to play a fairly major role in the plot, but the ending is ging to change. We can cut him completely since he no longer plays a real role in the game or we can allocate additional funds to finish him up, add a recruitment mission and change his role as a squadmember. We'd need to recoup these extra costs so let's put him in as DLC."

[Han Shot First]

Addai67 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...
If you buy a new car you spend a lot more than $60. Do you also get to demand the dealer throw in leather seats, pinstriping, an anti-theft system, and chrome rims at no extra cost? Is your new car not a 'full experience' if the dealer doesn't throw those in free of charge?

Yes, you can demand that. Because no one likes to be nickel and dimed. Your example isn't exactly helping the case here.

And how is it that the customer is "greedy" but not the company? Prices are always a negotiation.

Sure, greed is a factor on the other side of the deal as well.

But the consumer doesn't have a leg to stand on if claiming they are being sold an incomplete product. A car that doesn't have those chrome rims will still get a person from point A to point B, just as a game without Day 1 DLC is still complete and playable. Like those rims, the DLC is an extra.

Unless a company rolls out a DLC that is necessary to complete game, I don't think there is much to the "I've been cheated" complaints. Otherwise its just gamers wanting to get a product without having to pay for it. Its not some noble crusade against unscrupulous business practices, its just greed on the part of the consumer. It is also somewhat ironic, since the complainers are as guilty of being greedy as the companies they are railing against.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 05 janvier 2014 - 09:25 .

[Addai]

Han Shot First wrote...

Sure, greed is a factor on the other side of the deal as well.

But the consumer doesn't have a leg to stand on if claiming they are being sold an incomplete product. A car that doesn't have those chrome rims will still get a person from point A to point B, just as a game without Day 1 DLC is still complete and playable. Like those rims, the DLC is an extra.

I have two legs to stand on, the two that will take me out the door and down the street to another car dealership.

The problem is that gamers want to whine but not put their money where their mouth is. And that's why EA gets dollar signs in its eyes for every jot and tittle. Game developers are trying every which way they can to drive up the price of games. They want you to get used to paying $70 or $80 instead of the magic price point of $60 (which not long ago was $50 for PC games). That's why EA burbles about Steam sales. It's just business, but you don't have to like it, especially when it's accompanied by shoddy and rushed base game development.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 janvier 2014 - 09:26 .

[Han Shot First]

Addai67 wrote...

The problem is that gamers want to whine but not put their money where their mouth is.

Gamers also aren't a monolithic group. Some gamers might have issues with Day 1 DLC. Not everyone does. The determining factor for me on whether or not I'll purchase DLC is whether or not the content interests me and is worth the asking price. And that's it. And I'm sure I'm not alone in that. I certainly wouldn't be swayed out of purchasing something I'm interested in just because other people plan to boycott it.

[Get Magna Carter]

My position is that I don't have a home internet connection and so can't access DLC.
I would be prepared to pay more for a copy of the game including the "DLC" playable from disc but that option is not available.
Consequently, it is annoying to me when developers remove significant story content to be dlc only or rush out a badly bugged game and depend on post-release patches to fix it.
I did not buy Arkham City at launch because I would not be able to access the Catwoman sections so instead waited for the Game-of-the-year version

[Il Divo]

Addai67 wrote...

I have two legs to stand on, the two that will take me out the door and down the street to another car dealership.

Then you go to the other car dealer. That's not an argument against his statement. Point is that game developers aren't required to give you that extra content any more than the car dealer is required to give you whatever insane incentives you demand.

Basic economics dictate that either you go to someone else who does provide those benefits or, if no one will, you make do with the current market. That or stop buying games/cars.

Modifié par Il Divo, 05 janvier 2014 - 01:56 .

[Il Divo]

Han Shot First wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The problem is that gamers want to whine but not put their money where their mouth is.

Gamers also aren't a monolithic group. Some gamers might have issues with Day 1 DLC. Not everyone does. The determining factor for me on whether or not I'll purchase DLC is whether or not the content interests me and is worth the asking price. And that's it. And I'm sure I'm not alone in that. I certainly wouldn't be swayed out of purchasing something I'm interested in just because other people plan to boycott it.

^

[AlanC9]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I should amend. Day 1 DLC and most early DLC is almost guaranteed to be content that would have been cut otherwise. It's a lot easier to build content with the foundation already laid than to start from scratch. Later stuff is usually a mix of cut content and new stuff that got added in later to fill in the cracks, since the stuff that was cut wasn't finished and needed fleshing out. Sometimes old content gets repurposed for newer things, like the Tallis/Felicia Day collaboration that happened for DA2.

Just so I'm clear about something, a current production plan often assumes there will be day 1 DLC from inception, right?  It's just the specific content of the DLC that's TBD? In my industry we often bump stuff in or out of the year depending on how revenue's looking, but if we have to whip up something on the fly something's gone badly wrong with the plan.

Modifié par AlanC9, 05 janvier 2014 - 05:31 .

[Addai]

Il Divo wrote...

Then you go to the other car dealer. That's not an argument against his statement. Point is that game developers aren't required to give you that extra content any more than the car dealer is required to give you whatever insane incentives you demand.

Basic economics dictate that either you go to someone else who does provide those benefits or, if no one will, you make do with the current market. That or stop buying games/cars.

I'm not telling anyone else what to do. If you don't mind being nickel and dimed, if you prefer piddly throw-away DLC and weapon packs and pay-to-unlock, be my guest.

The fact is, there ARE developers who don't have EA's business values, so there is in fact a choice. And my point was that people who complain about the business model need to be willing to forego the games those developers make. Just whining on forums while lapping up the microtransactions isn't going to accomplish much. But it's also a fact that EA doesn't have customer goodwill to burn.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 janvier 2014 - 11:12 .

[addiction21]

Addai67 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Then you go to the other car dealer. That's not an argument against his statement. Point is that game developers aren't required to give you that extra content any more than the car dealer is required to give you whatever insane incentives you demand.

Basic economics dictate that either you go to someone else who does provide those benefits or, if no one will, you make do with the current market. That or stop buying games/cars.

I'm not telling anyone else what to do. If you don't mind being nickel and dimed, if you prefer piddly throw-away DLC and weapon packs and pay-to-unlock, be my guest.

You are right you don't tell them what to do. You just berate their choices, demean them, and fling one condescending remark at another at them.

I really do agree with you that gamers need to put their money where their mouth is at but at the same time many of the same people need to drop the superiority complex because some other people dare to spend their money differently.

[bmwcrazy]

Han Shot First wrote...

If you buy a new car you spend a lot more than $60. Do you also get to demand the dealer throw in leather seats, pinstriping, an anti-theft system, and chrome rims at no extra cost? Is your new car not a 'full experience' if the dealer doesn't throw those in free of charge?

Whenever I buy a new car, I always ask for free stuff. Like all-weather mats, wheel locks, baseball caps, t-shirts, and keychains on top of a huge discount.

Of course, I have never once been called a greedy and entitled whiner by other owners of the same car.

Modifié par bmwcrazy, 05 janvier 2014 - 11:53 .

[Addai]

addiction21 wrote...

You are right you don't tell them what to do. You just berate their choices, demean them, and fling one condescending remark at another at them.

I really do agree with you that gamers need to put their money where their mouth is at but at the same time many of the same people need to drop the superiority complex because some other people dare to spend their money differently.

I don't understand people paying $5 for an ammo clip, that's true. I demean them as being suckers of the sort that are born every minute- unrepentantly so. But everyone's entitled to throw their money away however they prefer. I was objecting to someone saying that you're "greedy" for not liking a company's pricing model. So go moralize at that guy.

[Joy Divison]

nevermind...

Modifié par Joy Divison, 06 janvier 2014 - 01:25 .