655 réponses à ce sujet

[FireAndBlood]

Steelcan wrote...

IIRC, the epilogue mentions that the circle got its freedom, therefore it being changed to "Chantry said no" is in fact a retcon.

And I'd also say leaving a character for certain death, without his sword, yet he becomes Arishok regardless of the choices made is also a retcon because it ignores the player's choice and establishes a canon path

.......You don't know what retcon means do you?

[Cainhurst Crow]

I don't really see proof that sten is the arishock in DAI when gaider said he wouldn't be if he was killed and or if the original arishock was still alive. Also, if there was anyone who might survive lothering, my money would honestly be on sten.

[Guns]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Darth Vader is a horrible character, george lucas was a fool to retcon luke's father as being alive. Story telling 101 guys! Dead characters stay dead, they don't get revealed as alive later!

Just like aragon was retconed to survive falling off the cliff in two towers, and gandulf was retconed to survive his fall. Trash, the whole lot of them!

Darth Vader never died and came back. Gandalf was always planned to return. Aragorn was always planned to survive, it even shows him coming back in the same movie. We always know he survives it's just the other character's who are shocked to learn he survived. That's completely different from bringing back a character, even if said character was confirmed to be dead in that option but that option is then disregarded. That is retconning, and that is what we are complaining about.

Please don't argue about topics you can't comprehend. Thanks.

Modifié par Guns, 23 décembre 2013 - 07:46 .

[Vandicus]

Hazegurl wrote...



geez, I wonder why no one is reacting the same way to Flemeth's appearance in DA2

Actually people did complain about it.


Regarding DA2, the game was a lot shorter than the developers had originally intended, and there was also a planned expansion/DLC titled "Exalted March" IIRC. I do believe Flemeth, Leliana, and Morrigan have been planned to be fairly central characters for these few decades of Thedas's history. 

[Veruin]

[quote]Steelcan wrote...

IIRC, the epilogue mentions that the circle got its freedom, therefore it being changed to "Chantry said no" is in fact a retcon./quote]

Ah, I never chose that so, I never got the slide.  All the epilogues were retconned to merely being rumours, I think.

[Gwydden]

Guns wrote...

Both Zevran and Howe have cutscenes immediately after that show their deaths so they couldn't fake it. I don't care if they explain it eventually that Leliana is a chosen prophet who pulls a Jesus and returns from the dead. They still originally planned for her to be dead in that option and retconned it, so I will not accept it. I will either mod her out or stop playing Dragon Age, and probably Bioware games in general.

Seems... a little extreme. I believe here is where our difference of opinion lies. I write stuff myself from time to time, and I actually love some improvisation from time to time. According to you, I have no right to change my mind on what I have planned for a character, even if is possible for said character to take a path different than what I originally had in store for him/her. I honestly don't see how that is retcon.

If you want to see a company that loves retconning the very explicit death of characters over and over again, look no further than Blizzard Entertainment.

[Nefla]

To me the games would be much better if less stuff was carried over from game to game. Mention the important, world effecting choices yes, but having every single companion and npc from the previous game show up in the new land with the new hero is IMO not only stupid and turns previously interesting characters into one dimensional punch lines, but makes the world feel tiny. I wish they would leave previous characters in their respective games and make something completely new and unrestricted. In the grand scheme of things, what you did really wouldn't matter to the world at large, only the people affected by it. Would a shopkeeper in Kirkwall care or even know about if you saved, killed, or let Connor be posessed? No. Would an Orlesian Chevalier know or care who Hawke slept with or if she turned Grace and her blood mage friends into the circle? No. Let in game choices have a bigger impact on the game they're in and then leave it there.

That's not to say I want a generic canon warden/Hawke/etc...appear in the game like "Revan" in SWtOR. I don't want them to be in it at all. Vague references or just not mentioning them at all would be much better since it has nothing to do with the story at hand.

[Star fury]

FireAndBlood wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

IIRC, the epilogue mentions that the circle got its freedom, therefore it being changed to "Chantry said no" is in fact a retcon.

And I'd also say leaving a character for certain death, without his sword, yet he becomes Arishok regardless of the choices made is also a retcon because it ignores the player's choice and establishes a canon path

.......You don't know what retcon means do you?

He really doesn't and that's a big problem. For him. 

[Guns]

Gwydden wrote...

Guns wrote...

Both Zevran and Howe have cutscenes immediately after that show their deaths so they couldn't fake it. I don't care if they explain it eventually that Leliana is a chosen prophet who pulls a Jesus and returns from the dead. They still originally planned for her to be dead in that option and retconned it, so I will not accept it. I will either mod her out or stop playing Dragon Age, and probably Bioware games in general.

Seems... a little extreme. I believe here is where our difference of opinion lies. I write stuff myself from time to time, and I actually love some improvisation from time to time. According to you, I have no right to change my mind on what I have planned for a character, even if is possible for said character to take a path different than what I originally had in store for him/her. I honestly don't see how that is retcon.

If you want to see a company that loves retconning the very explicit death of characters over and over again, look no further than Blizzard Entertainment.

I have referenced Warcraft's lore, specifically how good it use to be compared to how bad it is now, multiple times in other threads like this. Just because their retconning is worse doesn't mean we should be complacent about what they're doing here.

[Steelcan]

FireAndBlood wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

IIRC, the epilogue mentions that the circle got its freedom, therefore it being changed to "Chantry said no" is in fact a retcon.

And I'd also say leaving a character for certain death, without his sword, yet he becomes Arishok regardless of the choices made is also a retcon because it ignores the player's choice and establishes a canon path

.......You don't know what retcon means do you?

Choice made by player = make circle free, epilogue confirms it, Gaider says "nope" later, result is a retcon

[Hazegurl]

I find it funny that Mass Effect has no problems keeping certain characters dead no matter how popular they are and although they pretty much tell the same story with the different character they at least can provide a bit of variation to it. I wonder if the Mass Effect staff should also take over the Dragon Age Project.  

But then again the Dragon Age team would take over Mass Effect and they'll just turn it into a world where everyone is immortal and doesn't die.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 23 décembre 2013 - 07:48 .

[Afro_Explosion]

The circle not being given their freedom isn't a retcon it is explicitly stated in the slide that the chantry said no to freeing the ferelden circle.

[Vandicus]

Guns wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Guns wrote...


In which case there was a cutscene immediatly after to show that he did not die. Not a two year period where they said she wad dead in that option, but then decided to bring her back regardless of your decision because they are incompetent writers.

If we accept your line of logic that Zevran, Howe, and Leliana are all capable of faking decapitation, why would their be a cutscene visible to the player/Warden where Leliana reveals that she's still alive? Logically, Leliana would wait until the Warden left before reattaching her head, unlike Zevran and Howe.

A bard faking their own death isn't exactly a shocker in the first place. Furthermore, assuming she actually does have visions from the Maker, there are a multitude of explanations for how she could have survived had she not faked her own death. Assuming that those visions were a lie, and that Leliana was misleading the Warden the whole team, reinforces the idea that she would be prepared to fake her death in the case her deceptions were discovered.

Both Zevran and Howe have cutscenes immediately after that show their deaths so they couldn't fake it. I don't care if they explain it eventually that Leliana is a chosen prophet who pulls a Jesus and returns from the dead. They still originally planned for her to be dead in that option and retconned it, so I will not accept it. I will either mod her out or stop playing Dragon Age, and probably Bioware games in general.

So you admit that they faked their own decaptiations . Their one mistake would have been revealing that they were't dead after faking their decapitations by your logic.


How do you know that they planned Leliana to be dead? I could insist that they planned for Flemeth to be dead.

[Iakus]

FireAndBlood wrote...
Leliana appeared for a few seconds in the final scene of DA2, it would not have been appropriate to have her explain what happened at the time.

She also appears in The Exiled Prince dlc as "Sister Nightingale" and actually has a conversation with Hawke, who recognises her name as "the Leliana who traveled with the Hero of Ferelden".  If asked about being dead, she waves it off as "the Maker decided it wasn't her time"

So no answer (yet)

[Steelcan]

Hazegurl wrote...



I find it funny that Mass Effect has no problems keeping certain characters dead no matter how popular they are and although they pretty much tell the same story with the different character they at least can provide a bit of variation to it. I wonder if the Mass Effect staff should also take over the Dragon Age Project.  

But then again the Dragon Age team would take over Mass Effect and they'll just turn it into a world where everyone is immortal and doesn't die.

.  Amen to that.  When Garrus died, he freakin died, regardless of how popular he was or how much the writers liked him

[Gwydden]

Guns wrote...

That's completely different from bringing back a character, even if said character was confirmed to be dead in that option but that option is then disregarded. That is retconning, and that is what we are complaining about.

It was never confirmed. That's my point.

You say she being alive invalidates your choice, but all it does is show a different consequence for that choice than the one you expected. If you try to save a drowning man and he dies regardless, does that invalidate your choice?

[Star fury]

iakus wrote...

FireAndBlood wrote...
Leliana appeared for a few seconds in the final scene of DA2, it would not have been appropriate to have her explain what happened at the time.

She also appears in The Exiled Prince dlc as "Sister Nightingale" and actually has a conversation with Hawke, who recognises her name as "the Leliana who traveled with the Hero of Ferelden".  If asked about being dead, she waves it off as "the Maker decided it wasn't her time"

So no answer (yet)

Yeah, Leliana is too nice. Morrigan would have given a middle finger to everyone wishing her death.

[Doford]

Gwydden wrote...

Guns wrote...

With all due respect (I'm really sorry, but I'm tired today, and not in the mood to turn tactful mode on), you are aware that's the whole point of this thread? That Bioware said our choices would matter and we are given the option to import them only for them to be ignored 

But why is it so important to you?

Why is "you" in bold letters? Do you look down to the youth or jews? Do you have a point? Or are you just caught up in other people opinions that have no point. I think the latter. 

I like choosing the colour of my walls and the flooring. I like picking what clothes I wear. I have a favorite colour and a favorite artist and favorite tv shows and my many objections about news and politics. Maybe you can explain why those kind of choices can not effect a computer game? 

It would appear the original game design of Dragon Age, choice, was replaced with religious fascism found in DA2. 

[FireAndBlood]

iakus wrote...

FireAndBlood wrote...
Leliana appeared for a few seconds in the final scene of DA2, it would not have been appropriate to have her explain what happened at the time.

She also appears in The Exiled Prince dlc as "Sister Nightingale" and actually has a conversation with Hawke, who recognises her name as "the Leliana who traveled with the Hero of Ferelden".  If asked about being dead, she waves it off as "the Maker decided it wasn't her time"

So no answer (yet)

Well the Exiled Prince was dlc which meant not everyone had it, so it would have been a bad place for an explanation to be given, if it was in the main game itself and it happened the exact same way then I would agree that it is bad storytelling.

[Guns]

Vandicus wrote...
How do you know that they planned Leliana to be dead? I could insist that they planned for Flemeth to be dead.

Because Morrigan even said you weren't killing Flemeth, just buying time for Morrigan to plan/escape. Try again.

[Gwydden]

Doford wrote...

Why is "you" in bold letters? Do you look down to the youth or jews? Do you have a point? Or are you just caught up in other people opinions that have no point. I think the latter. 

I like choosing the colour of my walls and the flooring. I like picking what clothes I wear. I have a favorite colour and a favorite artist and favorite tv shows and my many objections about news and politics. Maybe you can explain why those kind of choices can not effect a computer game? 

It would appear the original game design of Dragon Age, choice, was replaced with religious fascism found in DA2. 

I was asking a genuine question.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Guns wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Darth Vader is a horrible character, george lucas was a fool to retcon luke's father as being alive. Story telling 101 guys! Dead characters stay dead, they don't get revealed as alive later!

Just like aragon was retconed to survive falling off the cliff in two towers, and gandulf was retconed to survive his fall. Trash, the whole lot of them!

Darth Vader never died and came back. Gandalf was always planned to return. Aragorn was always planned to survive, it even shows him coming back in the same movie. We always know he survives it's just the other character's who are shocked to learn he survived. That's completely different from bringing back a character, even if said character was confirmed to be dead in that option but that option is then disregarded. That is retconning, and that is what we are complaining about.

Please don't argue about topics you can't comprehend. Thanks.

Bull****, your whole post reeks of it. Gandulf was always planned to survive? Aint that a crock of ****, how about you show some proof before you go spouting off diahreha from  your mouth eh. And Aragon surviving was grade aid bait and switch from the writer to juke the audience, it served no purpose and was only there for drama, much like leilianas death. And don't you even dare try and say Darth Vader was  a character meant to be in more then just new hope. He was flying out into space with no control over his ship and millions of miles away from anyone, he was as good as dead. New hope itself was never intended to be anything but a stand alone film, but george got greedy and cocky and decided he wanted to bring the guy back and make things more "dramatic" by retconing anakin skywalker to be alive and be a main character this whole time.

-5/10 troll harder and get better ****ing ammo.

[Hazegurl]

Steelcan wrote...

My favorite part is how even if Leliana wasn't decapitated she was still maimed, mauled, incinerated, frozen, petrified, slashed, etc... The ashes are defiled and of no us, yet she still managed to walk/crawl off a mountain

That's because she's so awesome all she needed was dust particles.  Although it makes me wish I had the option to blow some particles of the ashes in Eamon's face and keep the rest for myself. Then my Warden could have avoided the darkritual and just having the ashes on him would have been enough to bring him back. hmm