655 réponses à ce sujet

[craigdolphin]

Bringing back a 'dead' companion, or retconning an epilogue ending, needs to be done with a really good in-game explanation for how that came about. Otherwise, I agree with those who think it's just a lame thing to do.

We invest time and money playing these interactive experiences. Disrespecting our only avenue to shape our experience by casually handwaving stuff like that away is just poor form IMO. Not that it's a huge issue for me. I just don't appreciate the seeming attitude that this stuff is trivial either.

[ElementalFury106]

If you give me the choice/desicion to decide someone's fate, then respect it in sequels. End of story.

[Hazegurl]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

if at the end of the matrix everything reset to the first matrix, the machines put neo and everyone else back in their pods, agent smith is still in charge, and Neo is back to being some lone hacker as he was before then everything he chose to do is made irrelevant. Also, revolutions sucked.

even though none of that makes sense, it is irrelevant. Neo, unlike the agents, chose.

(true, smith broke his shackles to track neo, but he was still bound to that)

What I am saying is that if every choice Neo made throughout the entire trilogy is taken away from him (as though he never made a choice at all) then every choice he made becomes irrelevant.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

What I am saying is that if every choice Neo made throughout the entire trilogy is taken away from him (as though he never made a choice at all) then every choice he made becomes irrelevant.

that's totally incorrect. totally.

the point of neo's statement is that REGARDLESS OF HOW THIS ENDS UP--the fact that i chose it of my own free will is enough. that's all that matters. that was the point of that trilogy, and it's the point of bioware choices. you  can self-determine (within a given range of choices of course), and that power alone gives meaning.

No it doesn't. Self-determination and freewill are useless if the exercise leads to one conclusion regardless.

I don't feel good knowing that I made a decision. I feel good knowing that the decision had a worthwhile outcome. 

Your idea of freewill is meaningless. 

[Hazegurl]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

What I am saying is that if every choice Neo made throughout the entire trilogy is taken away from him (as though he never made a choice at all) then every choice he made becomes irrelevant.

that's totally incorrect. totally.

the point of neo's statement is that REGARDLESS OF HOW THIS ENDS UP--the fact that i chose it of my own free will is enough. that's all that matters. that was the point of that trilogy, and it's the point of bioware choices. you  can self-determine (within a given range of choices of course), and that power alone gives meaning.

No it doesn't. Self-determination and freewill are useless if the exercise leads to one conclusion regardless.

I don't feel good knowing that I made a decision. I feel good knowing that the decision had a worthwhile outcome. 

Your idea of freewill is meaningless. 

Pretty much this.

I also want to add:

If I make a decision and it turns out bad, the decision itself is not without meaning. I can learn from that mistake and do better next time.

If I make a decision and it turns out good then I can remember that and repeat it the next time I have to make a similar decision.

If I make a decision that caused a lot of bad things to happen but in the end was for the greater good. I will have to live with the terrible things that happened and decide for myself if it was worth it or not.

If a decision is made to have never existed at all you get nothing out of it. No lesson to learn, no choices to live with, no outcome at all.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 24 décembre 2013 - 04:58 .

[Angrywolves]

Obviously when DAO was done Bioware hadn't decided what to do with Leliana.So at some point after DAO they decided to make her an intergral character. Rather late by then.But it's decided.

[Medhia Nox]

@MassivelyEffective: What's a "worthwhile outcome"?

[TK514]

If you need to ignore my choices to make a more interesting and/or cohesive story in a future installment, then you should go ahead and do so. I appreciate it when you can make my choices relevant beyond the game I make them in, but understand when you can't.

[Guns]

ElementalFury106 wrote...

If you give me the choice/desicion to decide someone's fate, then respect it in sequels. End of story.

Delete every post in this thread except this one. Lock it and sticky it. 

[AlanC9]

Meh. If keeping Leliana alive is worth Bio's time, I'm fine with the retcon. Defiling the ashes is a douchebag move anyway.

[efd731]

So I read the title and then skipped to page15. Is this entire thread about B****ing because Leliana didn't stay "dead"? Cuz if so, that's a bit outrageous

Modifié par efd731, 24 décembre 2013 - 06:03 .

[Hazegurl]

It didn't begin that way. It's just that people have eventually made Leliana's retcon the main focus of debate for some reason. She isn't even the problem.

[Isaidlunch]

This one believes save importing should be scrapped so that Bioware can write whatever they want for each game without having to worry about whether a choice they've offered will screw them over further down the line.

[Boycott Bioware]

Let see how retconings making Star Wars suffer beyond repairable

- Luke was a girl, but turn into a guy, end up he's the only hero who don't have heroine and romance in Hollywood movie. Even his dad have better romance than him.

- If Luke remain a girl, Han Solo sacrifice himself for "Luke" make sense because of the romance, that will tempting "Luke" to fall to darkside using her emotion and her hand got cut off fighting Vader. and later learned that Darth Vader is her father in which make the story is more tense....Because of Luke have become a guy, the Episode V ending become lame

- Leia dialogue regarding her mother become pointless because being retconed, her mom was dead when she is born, how come she remember her mom while Luke don't remember anything?

- Obi Wan "dead" vanish and return as ghost to guide Luke, why don't Qui Gon Jin do the same to guide Anakin? Qui Gon dead without being vanished. In Episode 3 Yoda said "your master, Qui Gon, have learn the path to immortality, in your seclusion, new training i give you..." (something like that) doesn't make sense

- Darth Vader can sense Obi Wan, Luke can sense Vader, Vader can sense Luke, Emperor (Palpatine/Sidious) can sense Luke in Episode 4 to 6...but Yoda and Jedi Masters cannot sense Palpatine is Darth Sidious in Episode 1 to 3, WTF? Yoda have live for 800 years, and he cannot sense the evil in front of him...but yet Windu said in Episode 3 "I sense a plot to overthrow Jedi, dark side is surrounded the Chancellor" lol

- Leia is supposed to be a "PRINCESS" but in Episode 3 she was adopted daughter of a senator, princess what?

- The whole Star Wars series becoming the story of "Darth Vader"

- in Expended Universe Luke fall to darkside when facing Palpatine clone making the whole story moot, "I am a Jedi like my father before me" he said rejecting the darkside and save his father by making his father remember about fatherly love, it is all become moot

So if DA have so much retconings, it will suffer like Star Wars

Modifié par Qistina, 24 décembre 2013 - 06:24 .

[SaltBot]

craigdolphin wrote...
We invest time and money playing these interactive experiences. Disrespecting our only avenue to shape our experience by casually handwaving stuff like that away is just poor form IMO. Not that it's a huge issue for me. I just don't appreciate the seeming attitude that this stuff is trivial either.

My attitude is not that your concerns are trivial, rather that it is unfair to judge a game's value through the lens of hindsight.  The ONLY reason people are upset about Leliana is because DA2 came out.  Up until the very last moment before DA2 came out, nobody had a leg to stand on in this argument.  I propose that it is impossible to judge DA:I on its own merits until the moment that the game itself is released, and it is even more impossible to judge it on the merits of its sequel until the moment its sequel comes out years after that.  I guarantee you we will be having this exact same discussion about Merrill/Isabela/Sebastian/Carver/Bethany/Gamlen/Trask/Castillon/Feynriel the moment DA:I comes out because, until the moment of its sequel, it is impossible to judge the merits of a game's "carry-over" mechanics.  Will that new discussion, at any point of its existence, go back in time and suck the fun out of the hours I have already consumed playing DA2?  No.

DA2 had problems, one of which was the carry-over mechanic.  BW has stated that they are working on fixing those problems, including the carry-over mechanic.  If that's enough for you, as it is for me, I suggest we not lose sleep over it until such time as we can judge the final product.  If that's not enough for you, I strongly encourage you NOT to buy DA:I.

[Goneaviking]

AlanC9 wrote...

Meh. If keeping Leliana alive is worth Bio's time, I'm fine with the retcon. Defiling the ashes is a douchebag move anyway.

The only credible motive for doing so is spite anyway. Somehow I've not lost sleep over them not being able to fully revel in their petulence by not having the randomised occurence of a decapitation cause a popular and interesting character permenantly removed from use.

Nor am I particularly annoyed by having a second or third game in the series tell me that my Warden mysteriously disappeared despite my wanting her settled down with Leliana while rebooting the local chapter of the Grey Wardens. And not just because they told me that it happened in epilogue of the original game.

[wolfhowwl]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

I read the first post. A statement like "I'm of the opinion that if you cannot fulfill the task of properly carrying over every choice you presented us in a game, and flesh out all these variations into at least an acceptable quality, then don't give us the choices." is going result in some incredulous reactions due to its outlandishness.

As the saying goes, if you can't do it right then don't do it all. But again I'm not saying gut choices out completely. If it's so hard to carry over all the choices you make, then perhaps don't present us with as many choices so that it's easier? I just think things like this should be planned out better.

Obviously Bioware's planning should be improved to avoid retcons but why should "all" choices be carried over?

Given the scale of the setting many choices will just be too insignificant to matter outside the story they were in.

As far as Bioware and how they handle choices going forward, I would like them to keep offering as many if not more choices but to focus on making them matter in a single game (which DA2 largely did not) and to keep them at a scale that doesn't affect future stories. If we get results in that game they still mattered to us even if the next game is set a thousand miles away and we don't hear of them again.

I agree that they should not offer choices they can't handle the consequences for, such world-shaping choices (like the Council in ME) that seem to promise huge differences in the setting in the future but due to resource constraints will not be handled well.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 24 décembre 2013 - 08:26 .

[Texhnolyze101]

AlanC9 wrote...

Meh. If keeping Leliana alive is worth Bio's time, I'm fine with the retcon. Defiling the ashes is a douchebag move anyway.

Why is it a douchebag move? because a bunch of dumb religious tools says its special? that right there is reason enough to just kick that POS off its stand.

Modifié par 101ezylonhxeT, 24 décembre 2013 - 08:33 .

[Goneaviking]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Meh. If keeping Leliana alive is worth Bio's time, I'm fine with the retcon. Defiling the ashes is a douchebag move anyway.

Why is it a douchebag move? because a bunch of dumb religious tools says its special? that right there is reason enough to just kick that POS off its stand.

Because there's no objective gain in defiling someone else's sacred artifact beyond the thrill of demonstrating ultimate contempt for someone else's beliefs. A particularly loathsome motive given that it, at least on its face, appears to offer objective proof of the correctness of their beliefs.

Because destroying it means destroying an object that offers the potential of curative powers beyond anything available from other sources in the setting. The potential good it could be used for at a later date is tremendous, destroying it because you don't like the belief system it appears to bolster is the moral equivalent of murdering everyone who otherwise would have had their lives saved by its continued existence.

Because doing it means actively violating the religious beliefs of at least one of your companions, potentially three of them, and means deliberately subverting a mission you've accepted to elicit the assistance of an prospective ally.

So yeah, there's no good reason to defile them and it makes your Warden a douchebag in at least three ways for doing it.

Modifié par Goneaviking, 24 décembre 2013 - 09:10 .

[AlanC9]

Also, the "dumb religious tools" are right. The Ashes are special. They work. Even a douchebag Warden is smart enough to take a pinch to cure Eamon before screwing everything up for everyone else.

[David7204]

Goneaviking wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Meh. If keeping Leliana alive is worth Bio's time, I'm fine with the retcon. Defiling the ashes is a douchebag move anyway.

Why is it a douchebag move? because a bunch of dumb religious tools says its special? that right there is reason enough to just kick that POS off its stand.

Because there's no objective gain in defiling someone else's sacred artifact beyond the thrill of demonstrating ultimate contempt for someone else's beliefs. A particularly loathsome motive given that it, at least on its face, appears to offer objective proof of the correctness of their beliefs.

Because destroying it means destroying an object that offers the potential of curative powers beyond anything available from other sources in the setting. The potential good it could be used for at a later date is tremendous, destroying it because you don't like the belief system it appears to bolster is the moral equivalent of murdering everyone who otherwise would have had their lives saved by its continued existence.

Because doing it means actively violating the religious beliefs of at least one of your companions, potentially three of them, and means deliberately subverting a mission you've accepted to elicit the assistance of an prospective ally.

So yeah, there's no good reason to defile them and it makes your Warden a douchebag in at least three ways for doing it.

I like you.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Do we even know if dragons blood destroys the power of the sacred ashes? I can't remember but I don't think the epilogue mentions what happens if the urn is defiled or not.