655 réponses à ce sujet

[Texhnolyze101]

Goneaviking wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Meh. If keeping Leliana alive is worth Bio's time, I'm fine with the retcon. Defiling the ashes is a douchebag move anyway.

Why is it a douchebag move? because a bunch of dumb religious tools says its special? that right there is reason enough to just kick that POS off its stand.

Because there's no objective gain in defiling someone else's sacred artifact beyond the thrill of demonstrating ultimate contempt for someone else's beliefs. A particularly loathsome motive given that it, at least on its face, appears to offer objective proof of the correctness of their beliefs.

Because destroying it means destroying an object that offers the potential of curative powers beyond anything available from other sources in the setting. The potential good it could be used for at a later date is tremendous, destroying it because you don't like the belief system it appears to bolster is the moral equivalent of murdering everyone who otherwise would have had their lives saved by its continued existence.

Because doing it means actively violating the religious beliefs of at least one of your companions, potentially three of them, and means deliberately subverting a mission you've accepted to elicit the assistance of an prospective ally.

So yeah, there's no good reason to defile them and it makes your Warden a douchebag in at least three ways for doing it.

You have obviously never seen my post and thoughts on the chantry and religion in general lol. I would happily kill every single religious person in Thedas if I could because i hate every single one of them and by killing them i will be saving them.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Ultimate question remains..


consider his batsh*t craziness.

WILL OUR CHOICES MATTER IN THE END?

or

[Star fury]

Qistina wrote...

Let see how retconings making Star Wars suffer beyond repairable

- Luke was a girl, but turn into a guy, end up he's the only hero who don't have heroine and romance in Hollywood movie. Even his dad have better romance than him.

I agree with George Martin, Luke should have had a relationship with Leia. It was the most logical thing, like Jaime and Cercei. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Meh. If keeping Leliana alive is worth Bio's time, I'm fine with the retcon. Defiling the ashes is a douchebag move anyway.

Why is it a douchebag move? because a bunch of dumb religious tools says its special? that right there is reason enough to just kick that POS off its stand.

Because there's no objective gain in defiling someone else's sacred artifact beyond the thrill of demonstrating ultimate contempt for someone else's beliefs. A particularly loathsome motive given that it, at least on its face, appears to offer objective proof of the correctness of their beliefs.

Because destroying it means destroying an object that offers the potential of curative powers beyond anything available from other sources in the setting. The potential good it could be used for at a later date is tremendous, destroying it because you don't like the belief system it appears to bolster is the moral equivalent of murdering everyone who otherwise would have had their lives saved by its continued existence.

Because doing it means actively violating the religious beliefs of at least one of your companions, potentially three of them, and means deliberately subverting a mission you've accepted to elicit the assistance of an prospective ally.

So yeah, there's no good reason to defile them and it makes your Warden a douchebag in at least three ways for doing it.

You have obviously never seen my post and thoughts on the chantry and religion in general lol. I would happily kill every single religious person in Thedas if I could because i hate every single one of them and by killing them i will be saving them.

So you wish to kill all of thedas? The whole population pretty much.

Humans believe in andraste, the elves have the old gods, espeically the dalish, tevinter worships a different form of andrastianity, dwarves worship the spirits of their ancestors and the stone, qunari are the most theocratic of all the races, and that pretty much leaves you with a population too small to repoulate any of the now massacured races.

Have fun being the last person on thedas. Tell me how it is when your madness makes you halucinate other beings to talk to.

[Texhnolyze101]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Meh. If keeping Leliana alive is worth Bio's time, I'm fine with the retcon. Defiling the ashes is a douchebag move anyway.

Why is it a douchebag move? because a bunch of dumb religious tools says its special? that right there is reason enough to just kick that POS off its stand.

Because there's no objective gain in defiling someone else's sacred artifact beyond the thrill of demonstrating ultimate contempt for someone else's beliefs. A particularly loathsome motive given that it, at least on its face, appears to offer objective proof of the correctness of their beliefs.

Because destroying it means destroying an object that offers the potential of curative powers beyond anything available from other sources in the setting. The potential good it could be used for at a later date is tremendous, destroying it because you don't like the belief system it appears to bolster is the moral equivalent of murdering everyone who otherwise would have had their lives saved by its continued existence.

Because doing it means actively violating the religious beliefs of at least one of your companions, potentially three of them, and means deliberately subverting a mission you've accepted to elicit the assistance of an prospective ally.

So yeah, there's no good reason to defile them and it makes your Warden a douchebag in at least three ways for doing it.

You have obviously never seen my post and thoughts on the chantry and religion in general lol. I would happily kill every single religious person in Thedas if I could because i hate every single one of them and by killing them i will be saving them.

So you wish to kill all of thedas? The whole population pretty much.

Humans believe in andraste, the elves have the old gods, espeically the dalish, tevinter worships a different form of andrastianity, dwarves worship the spirits of their ancestors and the stone, qunari are the most theocratic of all the races, and that pretty much leaves you with a population too small to repoulate any of the now massacured races.

Have fun being the last person on thedas. Tell me how it is when your madness makes you halucinate other beings to talk to.

Tevinter believing in the maker is my only problem with them...I thought they would be above such nonsense i really hope Bioware retcon it in DAI.

[Goneaviking]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...
[/snip bunch of quotes]

You have obviously never seen my post and thoughts on the chantry and religion in general lol. I would happily kill every single religious person in Thedas if I could because i hate every single one of them and by killing them i will be saving them.

So basically you've embraced Douchebaggery as a way of life for your characters. No wonder desecrating a healing artifact doesn't stand out as particularly douchebaggy, it's apparently one of the less odious objectives you aspire to.

[Cainhurst Crow]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Meh. If keeping Leliana alive is worth Bio's time, I'm fine with the retcon. Defiling the ashes is a douchebag move anyway.

Why is it a douchebag move? because a bunch of dumb religious tools says its special? that right there is reason enough to just kick that POS off its stand.

Because there's no objective gain in defiling someone else's sacred artifact beyond the thrill of demonstrating ultimate contempt for someone else's beliefs. A particularly loathsome motive given that it, at least on its face, appears to offer objective proof of the correctness of their beliefs.

Because destroying it means destroying an object that offers the potential of curative powers beyond anything available from other sources in the setting. The potential good it could be used for at a later date is tremendous, destroying it because you don't like the belief system it appears to bolster is the moral equivalent of murdering everyone who otherwise would have had their lives saved by its continued existence.

Because doing it means actively violating the religious beliefs of at least one of your companions, potentially three of them, and means deliberately subverting a mission you've accepted to elicit the assistance of an prospective ally.

So yeah, there's no good reason to defile them and it makes your Warden a douchebag in at least three ways for doing it.

You have obviously never seen my post and thoughts on the chantry and religion in general lol. I would happily kill every single religious person in Thedas if I could because i hate every single one of them and by killing them i will be saving them.

So you wish to kill all of thedas? The whole population pretty much.

Humans believe in andraste, the elves have the old gods, espeically the dalish, tevinter worships a different form of andrastianity, dwarves worship the spirits of their ancestors and the stone, qunari are the most theocratic of all the races, and that pretty much leaves you with a population too small to repoulate any of the now massacured races.

Have fun being the last person on thedas. Tell me how it is when your madness makes you halucinate other beings to talk to.

Tevinter believing in the maker is my only problem with them...I thought they would be above such nonsense i really hope Bioware retcon it in DAI.

Oh no, they are fully into the worship of andraste, they just think she was a mage who brought much needed reform to the corrupt and ailing magisters of yesteryear. In fact, they say particularly strong mages can see andraste racing across the fade in their dreams, and that is a miracle.

The black chantry and divine are also particularly heavy prescences within the tevinter power structure, having powerful magisters within its ranks who probably also serve as part of the governing body. 

I would really hate for bioware to retcon them as some enlightened race of atheists, since they have never at any point been that. When not worshiping magedraste, they worshiped the dragons as gods instead, so religion has always played a part in their politics.

The qunari and their lack of belief in an after life but instead in the proper order of the universe and every being have a place in it is the closest I think we'll ever see to atheism in thedas, outside of the PC or the cynics of course, and really who wants a society composed of just cynical ****s who were a-okay with all those people being killed?

[Seboist]

BW should drop the worthless import gimmick and make choices matter in the game they're made in. That's how DA:O's choices are superior to the whole ME trilogy combined.

[Texhnolyze101]

Oh no, they are fully into the worship of andraste, they just think she was a mage who brought much needed reform to the corrupt and ailing magisters of yesteryear. In fact, they say particularly strong mages can see andraste racing across the fade in their dreams, and that is a miracle.

The black chantry and divine are also particularly heavy prescences within the tevinter power structure, having powerful magisters within its ranks who probably also serve as part of the governing body. 

I would really hate for bioware to retcon them as some enlightened race of atheists, since they have never at any point been that. When not worshiping magedraste, they worshiped the dragons as gods instead, so religion has always played a part in their politics.

The qunari and their lack of belief in an after life but instead in the proper order of the universe and every being have a place in it is the closest I think we'll ever see to atheism in thedas, outside of the PC or the cynics of course, and really who wants a society composed of just cynical ****s who were a-okay with all those people being killed?

[/quote]

The information from the first part of your post is new to me.....I'm not sure how to feel about Tevinter anymore. As for the Qunari i wouldn't hava a a problem with them if they didn't do the stuff they do to mages but I don't think that will ever change so I cannot and will not eveer like them and I will only ever want to kill them even if they are the only slightly atheist faction in DAO.

edit: quot pyramid was getting to big

Modifié par 101ezylonhxeT, 24 décembre 2013 - 10:38 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Why so butthurt about religion?

[Texhnolyze101]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Why so butthurt about religion?

Because I find it unnecessary especially for a place like Tevinter. And religion does nothing but get in the way and the new info makes me dislike Tevinter a little bit now...I'm still looking forward to going there but my excitement has dropped a little bit now.

Modifié par 101ezylonhxeT, 24 décembre 2013 - 10:44 .

[schall_und_rauch]

Seboist wrote...

BW should drop the worthless import gimmick and make choices matter in the game they're made in.

BW offers an option:
a) import a former savegame where most, but possibly not all choices are respected.
start a new game without a save game, but with a predefined or chosen canon.

Players who are not happy with option a are welcome to chose option b.
However, I don't know why some people are telling Bioware to drop option a, even though there are many people who obliously enjoy that option.

I don't consider option b worthless. You are free to have a different
opinion and take the adequate consequences, but please don't spoil my
game fun by telling BW that they should drop something merely because you don't like it -- even if there is no requirement for you to use that feature.

[Doford]

Defiling the ashes and killing of Leliana would have stopped her part in the inquisition against dark magic. If you role play a dark mage in origin it's a bit of a kick in the balls to your choices. The entire story of DA2 is like that. For no reason other than to say "Player choices don't matter, we the developers make the choices and create the rules; not the player, trust us".

I'm guessing there were two sides to how the DA2 story should have played out. The developers who wanted to create a continuation to Origin, a multilayered story with good and bad choices. The devs who wanted to instill there own superiority in the work place and used the story of the game to do that. It appears the latter won over. It's a shame for the series the management didn't pick up on that issue.

It would be great if self involved thinking was kept out of the development because the story of DA:2 was truly naff.

[Dominus]

But I'm of the opinion that if you cannot fulfill the task of properly carrying over every choice you presented us in a game, and flesh out all these variations into at least an acceptable quality, then don't give us the choices. Or at least don't present us with as many. I don't think I'm being unfair with this.

And it is a very valid opinion. I'm not as picky about the subject, as long as it feels like it overall went well in terms of meaningful impacts carrying over from the last game. Wonky Balance of Consequences i.e. ME3 will have an effect, but won't necessarily thrust it into "terribad" mode. As Dave mentioned on Page 1:

Ultimately our primary goal is to make DA Inquisition a fun game, and to have the choices you make in Inquisition have a large impact within DA Inquisition. If that's insufficient, consider yourself duly warned.

I'm not necessarily expecting them to pull a TW2, but I'd expect a greater level of consequence in DA:I compared to DA][.

Modifié par DominusVita, 24 décembre 2013 - 11:23 .

[DPSSOC]

joere wrote...

Seboist wrote...
BW should drop the worthless import gimmick and make choices matter in the game they're made in.

BW offers an option:
a) import a former savegame where most, but possibly not all choices are respected.
start a new game without a save game, but with a predefined or chosen canon.

Players who are not happy with option a are welcome to chose option b.
However, I don't know why some people are telling Bioware to drop option a, even though there are many people who obliously enjoy that option.

 
Because if Bioware is going with the line that they'll ignore/reverse certain possibilities from previous games for the sake of telling the story they want to tell (which is perfectly fine) why not just have choices matter in the game they're in and start each game with a default state?  Just say, ok this is how the world is now, and start with a solid foundation for the story, allowing small details like Hawke or the Warden's gender, whether the Warden survived, etc. to be set by the player in game.

joere wrote...
I don't consider option b worthless. You are free to have a different
opinion and take the adequate consequences, but please don't spoil my
game fun by telling BW that they should drop something merely because you don't like it -- even if there is no requirement for you to use that feature.

However people who don't like the feature still pay for it.  Bioware still has to write around all the variables they carry over whether they offer pre-set choice packages or not.  Rather than having a game stuffed to bursting with winks and nods to the previous game (because that's all carry over can really amount to with resource/time limitations) some people want a game with more meaningful and impacting choices within it's own context.

DA2 is a good example (or bad example however you want to look at it) of the problem.  It basically should have been a novel because player input changes absolutely nothing.  Our choices don't matter because they ultimately don't result in anything, no matter what kind of character you play or what choices you make the game plays out exactly the same.  So rather than have a bunch of choices that don't really change anything because it makes it easier to carry over why not give the player choices that can make the game radically different and just bring the next game out with a default state and declare every other possibility AU.

[schall_und_rauch]

DPSSOC wrote...
 
Because if Bioware is going with the line that they'll ignore/reverse certain possibilities from previous games for the sake of telling the story they want to tell (which is perfectly fine) why not just have choices matter in the game they're in and start each game with a default state?

Because other choices do matter. And I want those imported. I can bend my head around some issues, and my personal gameplay has been consistent, so I would miss out on something if the import is dropped.

Just say, ok this is how the world is now, and start with a solid foundation for the story, allowing small details like Hawke or the Warden's gender, whether the Warden survived, etc. to be set by the player in game.

Which is a choice you will have.

However people who don't like the feature still pay for it.  Bioware still has to write around all the variables they carry over whether they offer pre-set choice packages or not.  Rather than having a game stuffed to bursting with winks and nods to the previous game (because that's all carry over can really amount to with resource/time limitations) some people want a game with more meaningful and impacting choices within it's own context.

People always pay for aspects which they are not going to use in video games.
If I only want to play a warrior, I have to pay for mage/rogue Inquisitor balancing. If I only play a male character, I have to pay for female face configurability. etc. If I don't like an Inquisitor Qunari, I still have to pay for it. I also payed for the dwarfen backstories, even if I never used it.
Demanding a game that is so fine tailored to your specific wishes and needs that you only pay what you will use will limit the audience of the game severely, which will lead to a much smaller budget, which will lead to an inferior game.
So the question should be "do I get a good enough game for my money" and not "do other people get something which I payed for, but I don't like".

I agreee that DAI should have meaningful and impacting choices within the game. That's what David Gaider promised on the first page of this thread. That's where DA:II failed. That is what I will hold BW accountable for in DAI.
But that doesn't mean as a consequence that "if you forget one single decision I made in my previous game, I will throw it in your face over and over again until you ditch the import, so that nobody will enjoy it."

[Fast Jimmy]

Because other choices do matter. And I want those imported. I can bend my head around some issues, and my personal gameplay has been consistent, so I would miss out on something if the import is dropped.

Do you mean other choices matter to YOU, or other choices have mattered in previous Bioware games that have done imports?

I can't argue the first point, but the second one is pretty hard to defend. Besides a small cameo, side quest or Codex entry, what ramifications have we seen from the Save Import that make people feel it has respected their choices?

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 24 décembre 2013 - 02:02 .

[dreamgazer]

Seboist wrote...

BW should drop the worthless import gimmick and make choices matter in the game they're made in. That's how DA:O's choices are superior to the whole ME trilogy combined.

I don't dislike the tweaked thematic flavor that ME took on with imported fates of characters and sub-quests, but I absolutely agree with making all significant decisions very clearly apply only to a single game.

[Sanunes]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Because other choices do matter. And I want those imported. I can bend my head around some issues, and my personal gameplay has been consistent, so I would miss out on something if the import is dropped.

Do you mean other choices matter to YOU, or other choices have mattered in previous Bioware games that have done imports?

I can't argue the first point, but the second one is pretty hard to defend. Besides a small cameo, side quest or Codex entry, what ramifications have we seen from the Save Import that make people feel it has respected their choices?

The squadmembers that survive in Mass Effect 3.

Its far from perfect and I think it was over saturated for it felt like it made Mass Effect 3 into a "Greatest Hits record", but they tried to include those to have some impact in the game, for you had the Virmire Suvivor and different interactions in the game with them and Miranda and if she died I have been told her sister takes her place (I never experienced that, so I am not 100% sure on that outcome).  There is also Garrus and Liara who aren't in the game if they died previously as well.

Other plot elements such as the decision at Mass Effect 2 would have been nice to have a greater impact on the game even if it was enemy design.

[Aaleel]

Sanunes wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Because other choices do matter. And I want those imported. I can bend my head around some issues, and my personal gameplay has been consistent, so I would miss out on something if the import is dropped.

Do you mean other choices matter to YOU, or other choices have mattered in previous Bioware games that have done imports?

I can't argue the first point, but the second one is pretty hard to defend. Besides a small cameo, side quest or Codex entry, what ramifications have we seen from the Save Import that make people feel it has respected their choices?

The squadmembers that survive in Mass Effect 3.

Its far from perfect and I think it was over saturated for it felt like it made Mass Effect 3 into a "Greatest Hits record", but they tried to include those to have some impact in the game, for you had the Virmire Suvivor and different interactions in the game with them and Miranda and if she died I have been told her sister takes her place (I never experienced that, so I am not 100% sure on that outcome).  There is also Garrus and Liara who aren't in the game if they died previously as well.

Other plot elements such as the decision at Mass Effect 2 would have been nice to have a greater impact on the game even if it was enemy design.

But they didn't really have an impact on the game, that was my whole problem with it.  The whole premise of the second game was that you needed these people and these people only because the were the best at what they do.  You made choices and decisions that may have lead to their deaths and the the lose of what they brought to the team.  But then in ME3 they all just had fill-ins who stepped in and eliminated any consequence.

Wrex or Wreav, Mordin dead or alive, keep or destroy Mealon's data, it doesn't matter you can cure the genophage anyway.

Like I said earlier they should do away with the save import altogether and have a keep/Genesis function for every game if this is how its going to be handled.  You know exactly what is going or not going to be there from the start because you set the stage.

[schall_und_rauch]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Do you mean other choices matter to YOU, or other choices have mattered in previous Bioware games that have done imports?

I can't argue the first point, but the second one is pretty hard to defend. Besides a small cameo, side quest or Codex entry, what ramifications have we seen from the Save Import that make people feel it has respected their choices?

I mean choices that matter to the writers. While it'd be nice to have all choices respected, regardless of whether I took them or not, I can accept that some are neglected because the writers chose to do so. Asking to drop the whole feature of imports to be dropped is unreasonable, especially if there will be a feature to not import savegames anyways.

The second point: I would argue it makes a difference whether Ashley or Kaiden is your companion in ME3. I would also argue that it makes a difference for the Krogan disease storyline (which is a central story to ME3) whether you kept the cure research or not.
What you did with Legion in ME2 has some impact on how the Geth-Quarian war plays out on ME3.
So, yes, I think there are a lot of choices made in ME1 and ME2 that significantly change many aspects of ME3.
It gives the game a very different feel.

Dragon Age is different, as it a) tells a different story of a different protagonist each time and we have only seen one sequel to DA yet. Which means that a cameo, a sightly different codex entry or a different spin regarding "the events in Kirkwall" is enough of a continuity nod that I feel it is a world where my decision made a difference.

[schall_und_rauch]

Aaleel wrote...

Like I said earlier they should do away with the save import altogether and have a keep/Genesis function for every game if this is how its going to be handled.  You know exactly what is going or not going to be there from the start because you set the stage.

Like I said: You will most likely have the option of creating a new game without import.
I don't want to take that away from you. Why do you want to take the option of importing a save game import the way it was done in all the other games away from those people who enjoy it?

[Mathias]

Seboist wrote...

BW should drop the worthless import gimmick and make choices matter in the game they're made in. That's how DA:O's choices are superior to the whole ME trilogy combined.

Yes!!!

Thank you, and I totally agree. I love having choice in my game, but if you're gonna do save imports then at least plan ahead on how you could carry the choices over.

[WhiteKnyght]

The only instances of choice retcons that really bother me are the ones tying to Dragon Age: Origins' ending.

In DAO) Free the Circle with the Boon - Get an epilogue slide talking about how the mages are doing with their autonomy and you get told that Cullen became a deranged killer.

Later) We find out that never happened. At all. The Chantry said no and Kinloch Hold is still under Templar supervision. And Cullen's been transferred to Kirkwall and is very well adjusted considering his past trauma.

In DAO) Annul the Circle - Get an epilogue slide saying that after Greagoir dies, Cullen becomes Knight-Commander and rules the Circle with fear.

Later) Still didn't happen. At all. Cullen got transferred to Kirkwall where Meredith fit that description, not him. And after Asunder, there's no Circle of Magi left for him to rule with fear because the mages all rebelled and the Templars broke off from the Chantry to exterminate them.

In DAO) Make the ultimate sacrifice to slay the Archdemon, Get a funeral ending with epilogue slides corresponding to it.

Import to Awakening) The Warden is magically alive and the choice is directly changed, instead of just importing the choices and letting us create an Orlesian Warden.


Buttttttttttt...

As far as Anders, Leliana, Wynne, etc are concerned, it's a matter of interpretation.

Anders explained his survival when questioned about it. He took the corpse of a guy who resembled him, burned it and put his robes on it, to fake his death. And his merger with Justice could have happened then(due to Kristoff's corpse possibly being killed).

Leliana gave a more vague explanation, possibly because even she doesn't know how and it might be elaborated on further in Inquisition or later. Maybe Andraste was like Anders and Wynne, possessed by a powerful spirit, and when you defile the ashes with blood magic and kill Leliana, that spirit moved into her and resurrected her like the Spirit of Faith did for Wynne.

For Wynne, Asunder establishes that the spirit is sustaining her life. Sticking her with a sword a few times probably wont do anything.

And with Dragon Age II, the point is that the entire game was being told to someone by a known liar who exaggerates for dramatic effect, they made no secret of that in the game. That gives them a remarkable amount of free reign with deciding what the actual truth is and what Varric was just making into another of his tall tales.

[Angrywolves]

Doford wrote...

Defiling the ashes and killing of Leliana would have stopped her part in the inquisition against dark magic. If you role play a dark mage in origin it's a bit of a kick in the balls to your choices. The entire story of DA2 is like that. For no reason other than to say "Player choices don't matter, we the developers make the choices and create the rules; not the player, trust us".

I'm guessing there were two sides to how the DA2 story should have played out. The developers who wanted to create a continuation to Origin, a multilayered story with good and bad choices. The devs who wanted to instill there own superiority in the work place and used the story of the game to do that. It appears the latter won over. It's a shame for the series the management didn't pick up on that issue.

It would be great if self involved thinking was kept out of the development because the story of DA:2 was truly naff.

The story of DA2 was awful, imo.

Yes some players, including the very astute fast jimmy, are against continuing these import downloads from previous games.
I think continuing importing  specifics from the previous games overly complicates the game developement process.However, gamers seem to prefer having that option.

Modifié par Angrywolves, 24 décembre 2013 - 04:06 .