655 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Why so butthurt about religion?

It is rather odd, isn't it? I am as critical of religion as they come in RL, but it has been part of almost all human cultures for basically forever, so I can't see anything wrong with Thedas' cultures following suit..As long as my characters can be beyond it, I'm ok with it. And as for the sacred ashes, in the light of its healing powers I see it as evil to destroy it, even though I care not at all about the religious significance.

Having said that, I would really like to reduce the influence of religious thinking on Thedas. This world needs an Enlightenment.

[Ryzaki]

Seboist wrote...

BW should drop the worthless import gimmick and make choices matter in the game they're made in. That's how DA:O's choices are superior to the whole ME trilogy combined.

Agreed.

[Iakus]

Ryzaki wrote...

Seboist wrote...

BW should drop the worthless import gimmick and make choices matter in the game they're made in. That's how DA:O's choices are superior to the whole ME trilogy combined.

Agreed.

+1

[Fast Jimmy]

iakus wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Seboist wrote...

BW should drop the worthless import gimmick and make choices matter in the game they're made in. That's how DA:O's choices are superior to the whole ME trilogy combined.

Agreed.

+1

This idea is preposterous. 

[dreamgazer]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

iakus wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Seboist wrote...

BW should drop the worthless import gimmick and make choices matter in the game they're made in. That's how DA:O's choices are superior to the whole ME trilogy combined.

Agreed.

+1

This idea is preposterous. 

Why hasn't anyone suggested it sooner, Jimmy?

Modifié par dreamgazer, 24 décembre 2013 - 05:18 .

[Hazegurl]

Goneaviking wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Meh. If keeping Leliana alive is worth Bio's time, I'm fine with the retcon. Defiling the ashes is a douchebag move anyway.

Why is it a douchebag move? because a bunch of dumb religious tools says its special? that right there is reason enough to just kick that POS off its stand.

Because there's no objective gain in defiling someone else's sacred artifact beyond the thrill of demonstrating ultimate contempt for someone else's beliefs. A particularly loathsome motive given that it, at least on its face, appears to offer objective proof of the correctness of their beliefs.

Because destroying it means destroying an object that offers the potential of curative powers beyond anything available from other sources in the setting. The potential good it could be used for at a later date is tremendous, destroying it because you don't like the belief system it appears to bolster is the moral equivalent of murdering everyone who otherwise would have had their lives saved by its continued existence.

Because doing it means actively violating the religious beliefs of at least one of your companions, potentially three of them, and means deliberately subverting a mission you've accepted to elicit the assistance of an prospective ally.

So yeah, there's no good reason to defile them and it makes your Warden a douchebag in at least three ways for doing it.

Actually you get Reaver abilities for doing it. So yeah. If a person is playing a Warden who desires power more than anything and doesn't care about anyone's religious beliefs, Andraste or otherwise then they are doing it for a purpose. Yes it still makes that Warden a douchebag. But I don't see why that means the choice should be taken away from the player who played their Warden this way.

Your choice is evil = Yes it should be retconned.

That's doing nothing but trying to force people to play the same game as yours and therefore goes back to the OP's point that perhaps all choices should be removed since it seems most people here want everyone to play the same Warden with the same values.

[Hazegurl]

Goneaviking wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...
[/snip bunch of quotes]

You have obviously never seen my post and thoughts on the chantry and religion in general lol. I would happily kill every single religious person in Thedas if I could because i hate every single one of them and by killing them i will be saving them.

So basically you've embraced Douchebaggery as a way of life for your characters. No wonder desecrating a healing artifact doesn't stand out as particularly douchebaggy, it's apparently one of the less odious objectives you aspire to.

The way I see it if the Warden doesn't defile them all the religious idiots including Leliana defile them anyway by treating it like it's some circus side show until the place is destroyed.

[Ieldra]

Hazegurl wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Meh. If keeping Leliana alive is worth Bio's time, I'm fine with the retcon. Defiling the ashes is a douchebag move anyway.

Why is it a douchebag move? because a bunch of dumb religious tools says its special? that right there is reason enough to just kick that POS off its stand.

Because there's no objective gain in defiling someone else's sacred artifact beyond the thrill of demonstrating ultimate contempt for someone else's beliefs. A particularly loathsome motive given that it, at least on its face, appears to offer objective proof of the correctness of their beliefs.

Because destroying it means destroying an object that offers the potential of curative powers beyond anything available from other sources in the setting. The potential good it could be used for at a later date is tremendous, destroying it because you don't like the belief system it appears to bolster is the moral equivalent of murdering everyone who otherwise would have had their lives saved by its continued existence.

Because doing it means actively violating the religious beliefs of at least one of your companions, potentially three of them, and means deliberately subverting a mission you've accepted to elicit the assistance of an prospective ally.

So yeah, there's no good g reason to defile them and it makes your Warden a douchebag in at least three ways for doing it.

Actually you get Reaver abilities for doing it. So yeah. If a person is playing a Warden who desires power more than anything and doesn't care about anyone's religious beliefs, Andraste or otherwise then they are doing it for a purpose. Yes it still makes that Warden a douchebag. But I don't see why that means the choice should be taken away from the player who played their Warden this way.

Your choice is evil = Yes it should be retconned.

That's doing nothing but trying to force people to play the same game as yours and therefore goes back to the OP's point that perhaps all choices should be removed since it seems most people here want everyone to play the same Warden with the same values.

Your voice wasn't retconned. The ashes are still gone. I think people are too hung up about Leliana. Her possible death was a side effect.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 décembre 2013 - 05:25 .

[Hazegurl]

Doford wrote...

Defiling the ashes and killing of Leliana would have stopped her part in the inquisition against dark magic. If you role play a dark mage in origin it's a bit of a kick in the balls to your choices. The entire story of DA2 is like that. For no reason other than to say "Player choices don't matter, we the developers make the choices and create the rules; not the player, trust us".

I'm guessing there were two sides to how the DA2 story should have played out. The developers who wanted to create a continuation to Origin, a multilayered story with good and bad choices. The devs who wanted to instill there own superiority in the work place and used the story of the game to do that. It appears the latter won over. It's a shame for the series the management didn't pick up on that issue.

It would be great if self involved thinking was kept out of the development because the story of DA:2 was truly naff.

Word.

The question I have to ask to people who agree with Gaider is: How come the Mass Effect team can make certain decisions stick for good or bad but the Dragon Age team can't seem to do the same?

How come I can kill off certain killable characters in one franchise from the same company and have it stick from one game to the next yet can't do the same in another?

Can't they get some freaking tips from their colleagues in the other division?

I'm not saying Mass Effect is perfect, but in comparison they at least have a better base to work with.

[Hazegurl]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Meh. If keeping Leliana alive is worth Bio's time, I'm fine with the retcon. Defiling the ashes is a douchebag move anyway.

Why is it a douchebag move? because a bunch of dumb religious tools says its special? that right there is reason enough to just kick that POS off its stand.

Because there's no objective gain in defiling someone else's sacred artifact beyond the thrill of demonstrating ultimate contempt for someone else's beliefs. A particularly loathsome motive given that it, at least on its face, appears to offer objective proof of the correctness of their beliefs.

Because destroying it means destroying an object that offers the potential of curative powers beyond anything available from other sources in the setting. The potential good it could be used for at a later date is tremendous, destroying it because you don't like the belief system it appears to bolster is the moral equivalent of murdering everyone who otherwise would have had their lives saved by its continued existence.

Because doing it means actively violating the religious beliefs of at least one of your companions, potentially three of them, and means deliberately subverting a mission you've accepted to elicit the assistance of an prospective ally.

So yeah, there's no good g reason to defile them and it makes your Warden a douchebag in at least three ways for doing it.

Actually you get Reaver abilities for doing it. So yeah. If a person is playing a Warden who desires power more than anything and doesn't care about anyone's religious beliefs, Andraste or otherwise then they are doing it for a purpose. Yes it still makes that Warden a douchebag. But I don't see why that means the choice should be taken away from the player who played their Warden this way.

Your choice is evil = Yes it should be retconned.

That's doing nothing but trying to force people to play the same game as yours and therefore goes back to the OP's point that perhaps all choices should be removed since it seems most people here want everyone to play the same Warden with the same values.

Your voice wasn't retconned. The ashes are still gone. I think people are too hung up about Leliana. Her possible death was a side effect.

True the ashes are still defiled whether Leliana show up or not, I just don't like the idea of supporting a retcon simply because they don't like the choice made. That pretty much says that everyone should play the same PC.

I also want to add that I support the import feature completely even if all my choices aren't carried over. The entire idea of the story, IMO is that these three characters (Warden, Hawke, and Inquisitor) are shaping the fate of this world. I say let them freaking shape it for good or bad. I don't want the world to reset to some possibility Paragon default whenever I pop in a new game.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 24 décembre 2013 - 05:39 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

dreamgazer wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

iakus wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Seboist wrote...

BW should drop the worthless import gimmick and make choices matter in the game they're made in. That's how DA:O's choices are superior to the whole ME trilogy combined.

Agreed.

+1

This idea is preposterous. 

Why hasn't anyone suggested it sooner, Jimmy?

Made a poll about this months ago. Reactions were overwhelmingly against the removal.

link

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 24 décembre 2013 - 06:07 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

iakus wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Seboist wrote...

BW should drop the worthless import gimmick and make choices matter in the game they're made in. That's how DA:O's choices are superior to the whole ME trilogy combined.

Agreed.

+1

100% correct.

[Angrywolves]

ME is on a much more slippery slope than DA is, imo.
.
Their decisions have come close to crippling their franchise.

I have high hopes for DAI.The Leliana thing was a mistake, players need to just let it go if they love the DA franchise and move on.

Modifié par Angrywolves, 24 décembre 2013 - 06:56 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

joere wrote...

Players who are not happy with option a are welcome to chose option b.
However, I don't know why some people are telling Bioware to drop option a, even though there are many people who obliously enjoy that option.

Because the need to support that option constrains development.

They can't let us overthrow the Chantry or start an invasion of Tevinter as an optional outcome, because it would be too difficult to support that in future games.

But if each game stood alone, with a fixed background over which the previous games had no effect, then they could design the games without this limitation.  Even more, they could design multiple games with incompatible backgrounds.

But as long as they allow the import option, the games' design is constrained by the need to support that option.

[David7204]

People seem to be making some very silly leaps of logic here.

How is it exactly that DA:O supposedly had great choices by...not having an important mechanic?

[Angrywolves]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

joere wrote...

Players who are not happy with option a are welcome to chose option b.
However, I don't know why some people are telling Bioware to drop option a, even though there are many people who obliously enjoy that option.

Because the need to support that option constrains development.

They can't let us overthrow the Chantry or start an invasion of Tevinter as an optional outcome, because it would be too difficult to support that in future games.

But if each game stood alone, with a fixed background over which the previous games had no effect, then they could design the games without this limitation.  Even more, they could design multiple games with incompatible backgrounds.

But as long as they allow the import option, the games' design is constrained by the need to support that option.

this.:?

[Sylvius the Mad]

David7204 wrote...

People seem to be making some very silly leaps of logic here.

How is it exactly that DA:O supposedly had great choices by...not having an important mechanic?

But it does.  DAO's save file was always intended to be imported into subsequent titles.  The choices available in DAO are really quite limited.

But they wouldn't have to be if the game didn't support importing into sequels and expansions.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

People seem to be making some very silly leaps of logic here.

Old sport, you're not going to be taken seriously when you lead with this. 

[David7204]

You know, it's time to go ahead and admit that the choices for every game in existence are 'really quite limited.' That there has yet to be any revolutionary title with fully reactive and divergent choices.

Modifié par David7204, 24 décembre 2013 - 07:23 .

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

You know, it's time to go ahead and admit that the choices for every game in existence are 'really quite limited.' That there has yet to be any revolutionary title with fully reactive and divergent choices.

What's your definition of "really quite limited"?

[Jorji Costava]

My preferred solution to the save-import question (which no one seems to like) would be to just stop putting fate of nations-style decisions in the hands of the PC. That way, you may be able to eventaully phase out the save import mechanic without having later games give the appearance of retconning past choices; they'll simply be able to not take a stand one way or the other as far as choices made in previous games, because sustaining the setting won't require them to take such a stand. If you can decide in DAI whether or not there are any mages or templars left by the end of the game, obviously that's going to make things difficult for future games, but if this kind of thing simply isn't up to you, then there will be much less of a problem.

[David7204]

Tough to define. I'd say a choice that doesn't lead to a divergent change in one or multiple characters and the environment with appropriate yet significant knock-on effects.

Which is every choice in every game. It's the knock-on effects that get you. You can blow up Megaton in Fallout 3, but nobody really notices or cares.

[AlanC9]

Hazegurl wrote...


Actually you get Reaver abilities for doing it. So yeah. If a person is playing a Warden who desires power more than anything and doesn't care about anyone's religious beliefs, Andraste or otherwise then they are doing it for a purpose. Yes it still makes that Warden a douchebag. But I don't see why that means the choice should be taken away from the player who played their Warden this way.

Your choice is evil = Yes it should be retconned.
 

Just to be clear, I didn't mean that I was in favor of retconning douchebaggery. Defiled Ashes should stay defiled. I'm just not especially concerned with worrying about a side effect of the douchebaggery.

Modifié par AlanC9, 24 décembre 2013 - 07:42 .

[AlanC9]

osbornep wrote...

My preferred solution to the save-import question (which no one seems to like) would be to just stop putting fate of nations-style decisions in the hands of the PC. That way, you may be able to eventaully phase out the save import mechanic without having later games give the appearance of retconning past choices; they'll simply be able to not take a stand one way or the other as far as choices made in previous games, because sustaining the setting won't require them to take such a stand. If you can decide in DAI whether or not there are any mages or templars left by the end of the game, obviously that's going to make things difficult for future games, but if this kind of thing simply isn't up to you, then there will be much less of a problem.

 Like TW1? Geralt can - must - solve one big problem, but he can't accomplish anything significant with the other,and arguably  shouldn't try.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

joere wrote...

Players who are not happy with option a are welcome to chose option b.
However, I don't know why some people are telling Bioware to drop option a, even though there are many people who obliously enjoy that option.

Because the need to support that option constrains development.

They can't let us overthrow the Chantry or start an invasion of Tevinter as an optional outcome, because it would be too difficult to support that in future games.

But if each game stood alone, with a fixed background over which the previous games had no effect, then they could design the games without this limitation.  Even more, they could design multiple games with incompatible backgrounds.

But as long as they allow the import option, the games' design is constrained by the need to support that option.

What's the point of providing options that are just going to be ignored in later installments? A cheap thrill and a "OMG this is lolzy" ending like the UFO one from silent hill? Why not just get ride of options that aren't going to be taken into considerations and make this a game where you can only pick reactions to events rather then the events themselves.

Would acomplish the same thing in the long run and save more money. Win-Win on their side. Or maybe just make the game end with a comedy sketch ending all the time. We're already saying to hell with internal continuity or consequences with the route we're promoting here, so we might as well just say **** it to everything else.

Have our character discover a mass relay and fight a reaper as the end sequence of the game, it won't be accounted for later so why what's the problem anyway? No reason to be constrained by consistency so why not screw you to logic as well and turn the main character into a my little pony and have them blasting magical beams at a balrog? They'll just be retconed in the next game to be the human male noble we know is suppose to be canon.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 24 décembre 2013 - 07:48 .