655 réponses à ce sujet

[L. Han]

I don't want to seem too judgmental, but you seem to be having a rough time with previous BioWare games?

Is it because you were given a choice and it turned out to be meaningless?

Or is it something else?

While I personally wished that choices and decisions can break into new paths, I have to be modest and accept that BioWare (the writers specifically) want to tell a story. A story that has you engaged and somewhat lets you have some form of control or agency.

Really reminds me of Shakespearian plays where people will yell at the actors and at times the actors will react to the audience.

Just.... a thought.

[Il Divo]

I wouldn't mind so much if Bioware simply gave up on the save import.

In the long run, I just don't see it working out. If they simply focus on writing a great story/setting/characters, I'll have fun regardless.

I don't see the need for the game to remember that I romanced Leliana and such.

[Nohvarr]

OP, convince me this is something I should be worried about. I mean I don’t know if there is going to be a game after DA: I let alone when it could be set and what it will be about. I don’t know how any of my decisions could possible play into this hypothetical future game, and you insist that Bioware should commit to ensuring my decisions cause major changes in a game that simply may have nothing to do with much or anything I may impact in DA: I. The next game could take place across the sea in the lands of the Qunari or worse the Tevinter Imperium and yet somehow my decisions must have a major impact on the game, why?

[Angrywolves]

Il Divo wrote...

I wouldn't mind so much if Bioware simply gave up on the save import.

In the long run, I just don't see it working out. If they simply focus on writing a great story/setting/characters, I'll have fun regardless.

I don't see the need for the game to remember that I romanced Leliana and such.

That's what fast jimmy wants btw.
I agree it should be given up, makes more problems and issues .

[Sanunes]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

I don't think it hurts to remove the deaths of all these characters. I would prefer if Bioware only allows us to kill characters that would make a difference in the narrative.

They clearly wanted Leliana and Anders - so, why allow us to kill them? There are literally hundreds of other options beside death that could have them removed from the party.

That being said - when they do decide to do it - I just accept that as the new reality of things.

Maybe my Warden left Zevran to die, but he wasn't dead - he nursed himself back to health. etc. etc.

Maybe the Maker saved Leliana.

Maybe Anders.... ugh... I can't.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I personally can't accept it because I feel it cheapens my playthrough of the previous game. When I perform a finisher move on Leliana during the Sacred Ashes quest, cutting her head off, and then she shows up in the next game without any explanation as to why she's alive, it takes me out of the experience. Is it a game ruiner? No, but it does detract from my overall experience with the game.

The problem is if I remember what has been said in the past that is just a random animation its not tracked or intentional when it happens its purely random.  So how can they carry a choice like that forward when there was never an option to even record the event?

[zMataxa]

I'm fine with intra-game choices that don't mesh or carry-over with the next game.
It's a game only (not reality) and I can accept that in a fantasy game they can change the rules.
If they had the whole story laid out ahead of time with more characters (allowing more of them to be expendable), I would expect to pay more. 
Leliana is a good character and I'm glad they are keeping her around, and I'm sure they will come up with a pallatable explanation.

OP, it's an interesting argument you make, and in the distant future that may be possible if certain elements align.  But for now,  I easily accept this "limited feature of choice" as a sign of zot limitations.  And that's for an already exceptionally deep story/character game-world available at what I consider a relatively low purchase price considering the value.

In the context of all the games and their features out there, this "Dear Bioware..." feels like making a mountain out of a mole hill.  IMO of course. 

[Hazegurl]

I'm with you 100% OP.

Sorry but the whole selling point given to us by BioWare is that our choices have an impact on the world. What is the point of my Warden making a decision to do something only for the thing to be undone anyway for some unexplained reason. I can see it if I made a choice and a villain et al had a hand in that choice being taken away. That is a part of the story and gives me something to look forward to. Who is this villain? Why did they undo something I did? That is interesting. But some retcon with a lazy explanation of why X did or didn't happen is not cool and goes against what is being advertised to me.

DAI is about the player leading an inquisition. That is a huge deal. We have to save the freaking world here. Don't make me some glorified errand boy with no power to change anything a la DA2. Don't just take my choices and say "screw that, this is new game..."  for some future release. Why? Because it's like a constant reset of the world I left behind and makes me see clearly that this isn't my Warden, Hawke, Inquisitor's story but someone else's Warden, Hawke, Inquisitor story and if that person (the writer) doesn't want X to happen then X didn't happen. Now I have to headcanon how X didn't really happen instead of just remaining in the world and enjoying the story.

I may have some problems with Mass Effect's choices but Wrex never popped up alive and well in my story.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 23 décembre 2013 - 01:49 .

[Zu Long]

Angrywolves wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

I wouldn't mind so much if Bioware simply gave up on the save import.

In the long run, I just don't see it working out. If they simply focus on writing a great story/setting/characters, I'll have fun regardless.

I don't see the need for the game to remember that I romanced Leliana and such.

That's what fast jimmy wants btw.
I agree it should be given up, makes more problems and issues .

I disagree. The carry over is part of what makes Bioware games so interesting to me. What would have been different in games like Halo or Assassin's Creed if your choices from game to game had carried over? It's true that it takes extra effort from Bioware to carry everything over, but I feel that commitment is part of what makes them superior to other companies like CD Projekt Red or Bethesda or Blizzard. I love seeing the small ways my character had impacts. I loved the way little things could add up to bigger ones, like how some of the choices you made in ME1 and 2 influencing what choices you got on Tuchanka and Rannoch.

Sometimes my choices don't always have the exact impact I'd hoped, but that's okay. As long as I had good reasons for making them at the time, I don't regret them.

[zMataxa]

@Hazegurl
Is your issue with DA2 mainly (and ME3 ending probably)? or is it all of them?
I just don't think it's doable without more $$$$ to make the game.
Lazy is among the last word I'd be using 99% of the time when it comes to Bioware (Tali face being exception - if it was true).

But I sure can relate with the wish to have choices matter more.
I would agree DA2 could have had a few more choices but given the dev time, I'm fine with it.
When i compare to other games with this quality all the way around - I still reagard  Bioware as a leader in "choice" affecting our gameplay.  Perhaps just not to the degree that OP, and yourself may wish. I would like more too, but I realize the game may never get made then. So I'm fine with it as is - for the forseeable future.

Modifié par zMataxa, 23 décembre 2013 - 01:55 .

[zMataxa]

@zu long
The choices in Bioware games already trump AC, Halo or gears of war by a long shot.
I would ask how would you wish to pay for more?
Less game time?, bigger sticker price?, etc etc...

Modifié par zMataxa, 23 décembre 2013 - 01:53 .

[Angrywolves]

Sanunes wrote...

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

I don't think it hurts to remove the deaths of all these characters. I would prefer if Bioware only allows us to kill characters that would make a difference in the narrative.

They clearly wanted Leliana and Anders - so, why allow us to kill them? There are literally hundreds of other options beside death that could have them removed from the party.

That being said - when they do decide to do it - I just accept that as the new reality of things.

Maybe my Warden left Zevran to die, but he wasn't dead - he nursed himself back to health. etc. etc.

Maybe the Maker saved Leliana.

Maybe Anders.... ugh... I can't.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I personally can't accept it because I feel it cheapens my playthrough of the previous game. When I perform a finisher move on Leliana during the Sacred Ashes quest, cutting her head off, and then she shows up in the next game without any explanation as to why she's alive, it takes me out of the experience. Is it a game ruiner? No, but it does detract from my overall experience with the game.

The problem is if I remember what has been said in the past that is just a random animation its not tracked or intentional when it happens its purely random.  So how can they carry a choice like that forward when there was never an option to even record the event?

It's pretty clear that in DAO that Bioware hadn't thought that far ahead and that they might want to keep Leliana alive.So they made a mistake in giving players the opprotunity to kill her and to kill Zevran.

[Mathias]

Rickets wrote...

I don't want to seem too judgmental, but you seem to be having a rough time with previous BioWare games?

Is it because you were given a choice and it turned out to be meaningless?

Or is it something else?

While I personally wished that choices and decisions can break into new paths, I have to be modest and accept that BioWare (the writers specifically) want to tell a story. A story that has you engaged and somewhat lets you have some form of control or agency.

Really reminds me of Shakespearian plays where people will yell at the actors and at times the actors will react to the audience.

Just.... a thought.

I don't think you're being too judgemental at all. I'm gonna try to shorten this as best as I can because I've talked about this in the past many times at length, and I'm too tired to keep doing it. There are MANY reasons I've had a rough time with previous Bioware games, but choice is definitely one of them. I understand Bioware wants to tell a story, but it's OUR story as well. Let me use Mass Effect as an example here.

No I didn't write the story, and no I wasn't there in the studio with them, working the countless amount of hours and hard work they put in crafting that game. But I still poured something of myself into that trilogy. I put my time, money, and emotional investment into Mass Effect. Yes I know the world of Mass Effect and Dragon Age aren't real, but that doesn't mean what I felt for them wasn't real.

So when an event happens during my journey through a game, an event that I made happen, and in the next game Bioware goes "Nope! Sorry. Didn't happen. Because *shrug*" Then that takes something away from me. Bioware games have always been very personal journeys to the player. I just wish they'd stop messing with our journey once all's said and done.

[Angrywolves]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Rickets wrote...

I don't want to seem too judgmental, but you seem to be having a rough time with previous BioWare games?

Is it because you were given a choice and it turned out to be meaningless?

Or is it something else?

While I personally wished that choices and decisions can break into new paths, I have to be modest and accept that BioWare (the writers specifically) want to tell a story. A story that has you engaged and somewhat lets you have some form of control or agency.

Really reminds me of Shakespearian plays where people will yell at the actors and at times the actors will react to the audience.

Just.... a thought.

I don't think you're being too judgemental at all. I'm gonna try to shorten this as best as I can because I've talked about this in the past many times at length, and I'm too tired to keep doing it. There are MANY reasons I've had a rough time with previous Bioware games, but choice is definitely one of them. I understand Bioware wants to tell a story, but it's OUR story as well. Let me use Mass Effect as an example here.

No I didn't write the story, and no I wasn't there in the studio with them, working the countless amount of hours and hard work they put in crafting that game. But I still poured something of myself into that trilogy. I put my time, money, and emotional investment into Mass Effect. Yes I know the world of Mass Effect and Dragon Age aren't real, but that doesn't mean what I felt for them wasn't real.

So when an event happens during my journey through a game, an event that I made happen, and in the next game Bioware goes "Nope! Sorry. Didn't happen. Because *shrug*" Then that takes something away from me. Bioware games have always been very personal journeys to the player. I just wish they'd stop messing with our journey once all's said and done.

so they made a mistake.Not very forgiving are you  ?

[Zu Long]

zMataxa wrote...

@zu long
The choices in Bioware games already trump AC, Halo or gears of war by a long shot.
I would ask how would you wish to pay for more?
Less game time?, bigger sticker price?, etc etc...

I already preorder the special edition and would easily pay $100 for a Bioware game. Given that I usually get almost a hundred hours of entertainment per game so far (and that's probably low-end) it's easily worth it.

At the moment though, Bioware seems content to throw it in with the package they already offer, which I appreciate.

[zMataxa]

@mdoggy
That last post was a good explanation with the last sentence being a perfect finisher.
And certainly worthy of consideration by any dev that wants to make a better series yet.
That said, I think you just need to accept that these current games are not developed in that detail that far out. Sure it doesn't hurt to underline this concern.

But to call for removal of all choices if they can't deliver "the full meal deal" is not gonna fly with many of us.

[Hazegurl]

zMataxa wrote...

@Hazegurl
Is your issue with DA2 mainly (and ME3 ending probably)? or is it all of them?
I just don't think it's doable without more $$$$ to make the game.
Lazy is among the last word I'd be using 99% of the time when it comes to Bioware (Tali face being exception - if it was true).

I don't have much of an issue with DA2. Whatever choices I made in DAO have pretty much shown up in DA2. if I make Alistair King he makes a Kingly cameo, If I make Anora queen and Alistair abandons the Wardens, he shows up a drunk talking about crap about the Wardens. I'm very happy with that because it feels like a true continuation of the story. It keeps the flow going for me.

I've only killed Leliana once during my playthrough of DAO and I never used the import for DA2 but I can understand why some players had an issue with that.

As for ME. I don't have that much of a problem with the ending. It was more about the presentation of some of the choices and I will include the ending for that as well. Example: The Genophage cure. The story sort of bash you upside the head with a sign that says "Curing the Genophage is RIGHT!!!" especially with Wrex alive. But still it's one of my favorite arcs.

What I consider to be lazy is when a choice is taken away from the players and the in game explanation is like one or two pieces of dialogue. I've never killed Ohgren in DAO but seriously, why on earth would he want to come team up with the Warden he hates and "almost" kills his a**. lol!!

Oh yeah I heard of the stock photo drama with Tali.

[zMataxa]

Zu Long wrote...

zMataxa wrote...

@zu long
The choices in Bioware games already trump AC, Halo or gears of war by a long shot.
I would ask how would you wish to pay for more?
Less game time?, bigger sticker price?, etc etc...

I already preorder the special edition and would easily pay $100 for a Bioware game. Given that I usually get almost a hundred hours of entertainment per game so far (and that's probably low-end) it's easily worth it.

At the moment though, Bioware seems content to throw it in with the package they already offer, which I appreciate.

____________

If everyone thought like you - I think that would be awesome !
At that point, I think more choice would be possible. 
As it is, I think Bioware already offers more than others - by a long shot.

[O_OotherSide]

Will Leliana at least curse out the warden for trying to stab her to death?

[Magdalena11]

I think there is a general idea of where the games are supposed to go and writing is going to be more careful to consider the impact of some decisions on future games.

I like the idea of the keep if it's better than the save import in DA2. The only way I could get most of my DAO choices to import was to use Gibbed, which is what the keep sounds like - you make up your world state by answering questions on given plot decisions.

Having different imports allowed quite a few replays.

[Mathias]

zMataxa wrote...

@mdoggy
That last post was a good explanation with the last sentence being a perfect finisher.
And certainly worthy of consideration by any dev that wants to make a better series yet.
That said, I think you just need to accept that these current games are not developed in that detail that far out. Sure it doesn't hurt to underline this concern.

But to call for removal of all choices if they can't deliver "the full meal deal" is not gonna fly with many of us.

I don't want them to remove all choices. I'm just talking about particular choices where they don't know for a fact if they'll be able to follow up on. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

You shouldn't care and instead focus on enjoying the game for the content it brings, not the content it might bring later.

[Nohvarr]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

I don't want them to remove all choices. I'm just talking about particular choices where they don't know for a fact if they'll be able to follow up on. 

No, because that would mean they have to lock down the plot of a future game. I'd rather the focus on making the current game they are developing good rather than spend time and resources worrying about a game that may not get made or have nothing to do with any of the decisions being made in the current game.

[Zu Long]

zMataxa wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

zMataxa wrote...

@zu long
The choices in Bioware games already trump AC, Halo or gears of war by a long shot.
I would ask how would you wish to pay for more?
Less game time?, bigger sticker price?, etc etc...

I already preorder the special edition and would easily pay $100 for a Bioware game. Given that I usually get almost a hundred hours of entertainment per game so far (and that's probably low-end) it's easily worth it.

At the moment though, Bioware seems content to throw it in with the package they already offer, which I appreciate.

____________

If everyone thought like you - I think that would be awesome !
At that point, I think more choice would be possible. 
As it is, I think Bioware already offers more than others - by a long shot.

Oh I definitely agree. Gaider himself will tell you criticism doesn't hurt though. They try to give as much consideration to the critiques they find here and elsewhere as they can. I'm hoping they'll keep pushing the envelope in future games, finding more and more ways for the game to react to the player. I also really feel like DA Keep is a big step forward. Some of the "retcons" people talk about wouldn't have happened if we'd had the Keep last time (Zevran being alive, for instance). It should really help with cutting down on those kinds of glitches.

They certainly seem to be innovating a bit here in DA:I with the way the conversation system has been tweeked, and I'm eager to see it in action. Next fall is going to be a long wait. I've got my fingers crossed that I'll get into to the Keep Beta so I have something to play with until then.

Modifié par Zu Long, 23 décembre 2013 - 02:17 .