655 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

And while Wild Hunt does look pretty amazing so far, it seems like they're going for that approach of setting the game in a completely different location, to limit the number of variables they have to take into account.

Ding ding ding.

If they were Bioware we'd be calling it a cop-out.

Not true, Kirkwall was the perfect opportunity to do the same. Like I said before they could have even honored the free ferelden Circle boon since they never had plans for Hawke to ever return to Ferelden so it's just word of mouth news. And the mages rebel at the end anyway.  Handwaving it away was just pointless.

[addiction21]

slimgrin wrote...


If a game's narrative doesn't change, if it's all about personal character development, then it feels a bit narcisstic to me. But this is entirely subjective. We're talking about two distinct literary devices here.

What is so narcissistic about defining the character you are playing?

[Toasted Llama]

Lets just keep it at the fact that Bioware is going to HAVE to retcon things if they are hoping to get themselves out of this mess.

It is to late to disable major choices in past games so retconning is the only option left.

It's a shame, yes, but if Bioware learns from this mistake, it was worth it anyway.

[Hazegurl]

Meltemph wrote...

Why not just give us choices that effect the player personally, and not give us all these setting changing choice events?  That way the choices can be transfered, assuming you are the same character, and if not, the integrity of the game you played and the setting they created stays intact.

I agree. I wouldn't mind that at all. Provided they can find a good balance. Fans hate Hawke because of how powerless he/she was to do anything and pretty much gets pigeon holed into siding with one group or another. I don't think anyone want a repeat of that. However, I wouldn't want to run around on some power trip changing the entire setting of the world.

At the very least I would like to establish relationships with my companions for good or bad. and have it transfer if the character is going to show up again.

Romances carry over

Character deaths carry over (yes Mass Effect was vastly superior in this)

Give us the illusion of setting changing choices that can carry over cause it really wouldn't make a difference if it did or not. Ex; Rannoch and Tuchanka.

Realize that not every player has to have the same experience and reward. If certain requirements aren't met a mission is cut off.

[slimgrin]

addiction21 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...


If a game's narrative doesn't change, if it's all about personal character development, then it feels a bit narcisstic to me. But this is entirely subjective. We're talking about two distinct literary devices here.

What is so narcissistic about defining the character you are playing?

That's not what I said or implied. If you want to get technical, a reactive narrative does in fact define your PC. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

Getting ride of character consistency in order to accommodate the over-arching lore and history of the game is a major problem I can see in not having a save import system. Dragon age might be able to work without a save import system, I have to admit. Seeing as how they seem to make a new character as the focus in each game along with new setting, it's entirely forgivable to not have many of our more major choices accounted for. But talking about getting ride of save importing kinda limits you even more to what you are allowed to do.

Take mass effect for example, without save importing there really isn't a way for the game to keep track of what kind of relationship you had with characters, or what you choose to shape your shepard into by extension. Wouldn't it be weird if in mass effect 1 you killed wrex, only for him to be alive and all buddy buddy with shepard in mass effect 2? Or if you choose to soften garrus's approach on vengeance and justice, and the next game saying he became the most over-the-line merciless renegade ever?

Maybe not have the save import be for massive world building, and have it be more for the side quest and character histories. World filling instead of world building, and it would be a much better functioning system. Seems to be how dragon age handled its save importing, and I can't say I have much complaints outside of the occasional glitch or hiccup that would have occurred even if there was no save import, thus making the argument of not having save imports irrelevant in my eyes.

As for a sentiment brought up earlier that bioware shouldn't have advertised so much about the feature. Yes, they shouldn't have, and it was wrong of them to do so. But does that mean it should be scrapped and improvements should just go to the wayside in favor of regressive gameplay mechanics and pretty much doing everything safe? Witcher 2 built a better game world where your choices impacted the whole world? Fine, but they still had that by unapologetically ignoring your previous decisions when it didn't suit them or their tastes. If dragon age 2 had the same time as witcher 2 had to be developed, and was done at the same time, I think many wouldn't care about the problems in dragon age 2's import system either and would be proudly declaring it a monumental success.

As I see it, the issue of dragon age V witcher is one of time and less about how the reliance of the save import and choice system of bioware ruined any of the game. Which is the sentiment I am gleaming from a lot of posts here trying to assert the feature should be removed.


EDIT: I think that "Getting ride of character consistency in order to accommodate the over-arching lore and history of the game" is the main problem facing dragon ages writing and why so many people don't like the games as is today.

Biggest complaints that get brought up, Leiliana surviving, Meredith/Orsino character heel turns, Overly exaggerated mage/templar characters, Anders personality change, etc, etc.

All of them are characters being written in ways meant to facilitate the plot more then having the characters act as they would in a situation. Improving character consistency I think would really go far in improving biowares games.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 25 décembre 2013 - 11:59 .

[Nerevar-as]

Morocco Mole wrote...

You can exclude the Witcher 2 from that last. Since they blatantly ignored choices from the first game in favor of their own storyline and the game was a lot stronger for it.

For starters it wasn´t even planned, but decided to go do it anyway later.  Ada is the only choice I remember that can have significant results setting-wide. Let´s see what they do with 3, as this time it is actually prepared.

[Seboist]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

You can exclude the Witcher 2 from that last. Since they blatantly ignored choices from the first game in favor of their own storyline and the game was a lot stronger for it.

For starters it wasn´t even planned, but decided to go do it anyway later.  Ada is the only choice I remember that can have significant results setting-wide. Let´s see what they do with 3, as this time it is actually prepared.

The whole Ada thing is superflous, the only real meaningful carry overs is Siegfried on Roche path where could can avoid a fight depending on certain choice(s) and that one Order knight in Henselt's camp either giving you an item or fighting you depending on your alignment in TW1.

TW2's handling of import is more or less on par with DA2's and as sad as it sounds, far superior to the ME "Trilogy" due to some of these having an actual impact on the gameplay.

[slimgrin]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

As I see it, the issue of dragon age V witcher is one of time and less about how the reliance of the save import and choice system of bioware ruined any of the game. Which is the sentiment I am gleaming from a lot of posts here trying to assert the feature should be removed.

It should be abandoned because the results are trivial. ME2 was the most ambitious, and maybe the first game to push this concept. But in the end everyone was joking that it meant nothing more than a few cameos. TW2 had Seigfreid and the order in act 3, that's about as meaningful as imports got in that game. Game designers can't win when they say they are going to import decisions. It's become a talking point, like saying your game is open-world or has mulitiplayer. I will always see it as a flawed concept, and one I hope devs don't bother themselves with.

Modifié par slimgrin, 25 décembre 2013 - 11:59 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Most choices are trivial and have as much impact on the games in either title, less importance then even those consequences of imported choices.

Should those be removed as well, replaced by simple auto-dialouge to help them concentrate on the important choices that might matter more?

[Seboist]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Most choices are trivial and have as much impact on the games in either title, less importance then even those consequences of imported choices.

Should those be removed as well, replaced by simple auto-dialouge to help them concentrate on the important choices that might matter more?

The thing is, unless a dev creates a series that is so well planned and cohesive that it's essentially one large game broken up into several parts, you're just going to get superficial fluff that's a result of something that's slapped together at the last moment (TW2) or due to being an inconsistent mess of a story due to winging(ME "Trilogy').

It's simply more trouble than it's worth. Whereas doing choices that effects the game they're made in is pretty doable.

[spirosz]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Should those be removed as well, replaced by simple auto-dialouge to help them concentrate on the important choices that might matter more?

If the game is brought up as one with that being a gameplay element, sure.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I just don't see why you wouldn't call for a re-tooling of the save import system, instead of just calling for its complete abolishment and exile from ever being used again. To me it really does sound the same as "We should get ride of 90% of the choices in what our character says, feels, or reacts to companions, because it doesn't have an impact on the game as a whole".

[slimgrin]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I just don't see why you wouldn't call for a re-tooling of the save import system, instead of just calling for its complete abolishment and exile from ever being used again.

Name one game, one single game where it actually works. If you can't, consider the weeks/months of dev time that could be spent on more productive aspects...like making choices in the current game more nuanced.

[thats1evildude]

I'm still quite in favour of the import system, as I've never had any issue with it outside of the one bug that affects Nathaniel.

I've played oodles of games where my choices didn't amount to a crock of s**t, but with Dragon Age, I do feel like I'm building my own epic tale, even if the choices from game to game only amount to the odd sidequest here and there.

If the save import system is meaningless, then the absence of a save import system strikes me as being less than meaningless.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 26 décembre 2013 - 12:36 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

But without the tool, the result is exactly the same, your choices don't matter because next game they'll retcon it out of existence in favor of their own set choices from what happened in the last game. So where is the improvement to be found in getting ride of the system?

It's like looking at a bridge, and the bridge wasn't constructed right so it fell down, and instead of going "we should make a better bridge" people go "we shouldn't have any bridges at all, lets all just use boats and that will be better." Broken bridge or no bridge, people still use boats to get across, so where is the improvement in having no bridge over the improvement that could be found in calling for a better bridge?

[Hazegurl]

I was very satisfied with ME1 to ME2 import. Sure the Council was basically the same even after I killed them but I felt that the world and the characters were still moving along with or without me. ME3 import was also good, although Shepard was shifted to a default (scars removed) I was still able to get him somewhat back on the path I liked. The import tool is not perfect but it can be if given a chance. Rannoch and Tuchanka would have been awful as some retconned default.

And I hope no one says that DA2 would have been a superior game if the import tool didn't exist.

[spirosz]

Ah, well the import messed up my Shepard face so that pulled me out of immersion greatly and the auto dialogue also was something I disliked immensely playing through ME3. Where as, ME1 into ME2 felt very natural for my Shepard.

Modifié par spirosz, 26 décembre 2013 - 12:59 .

[Il Divo]

Seboist wrote...

The thing is, unless a dev creates a series that is so well planned and cohesive that it's essentially one large game broken up into several parts, you're just going to get superficial fluff that's a result of something that's slapped together at the last moment (TW2) or due to being an inconsistent mess of a story due to winging(ME "Trilogy').

It's simply more trouble than it's worth. Whereas doing choices that effects the game they're made in is pretty doable.

Pretty much this.

Mass Effect 1 alone carries enough important variables to last an entire trilogy. Then Mass Effect 2 compounds the problem with just as many world-altering decisions and (on top of that) decides to make every party member killable and make all loyalty missions completely optional to complete.

It's not too surprising that decisions like the Collector Base, which has every companion freaking out over, ends up amounting to nothing. Likewise with the extremely weak Rachni import.

Modifié par Il Divo, 26 décembre 2013 - 01:00 .

[AresKeith]

Hazegurl wrote...

I was very satisfied with ME1 to ME2 import. Sure the Council was basically the same even after I killed them but I felt that the world and the characters were still moving along with or without me. ME3 import was also good, although Shepard was shifted to a default (scars removed) I was still able to get him somewhat back on the path I liked. The import tool is not perfect but it can be if given a chance. Rannoch and Tuchanka would have been awful as some retconned default.

And I hope no one says that DA2 would have been a superior game if the import tool didn't exist.

Rannoch is debatable 

[SaltBot]

slimgrin wrote...

Name one game, one single game where it actually works. If you can't, consider the weeks/months of dev time that could be spent on more productive aspects...like making choices in the current game more nuanced.

As a generation that seems to spend a lot of time complaining about a media landscape bereft of originality, we seem quick to abandon this new mechanic within video games simply because one of the only companies to test it has not perfected it quickly enough.

I think DA: O is proof that BW can do choice and consequence well within the bounds of a single game. DA2 seems to be proof that they can also mess this up. Other than a bug with Zevran, a still-not-fully-explained "miracle" with Leliana (we use Magic to battle Golems and Dragons, folks, it's a little different than death in Mass Effect), and a hand-wave with the Circle boon (bad move, I agree), I feel like DA2 did a good job with importing. Little nods were made to the decisions of DA:O while the main narrative took place in a different land at a different time that felt consistent with, but largely unaffected by, anything The Warden did. Sadly, it also felt largely unaffected by anything Hawke did. I am confident they have the ability to fix that without just cutting and running from the save import mechanic.

What's better: to wonder which of your decisions will affect the next game, or to KNOW that NONE of them will?

[Il Divo]

AresKeith wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

I was very satisfied with ME1 to ME2 import. Sure the Council was basically the same even after I killed them but I felt that the world and the characters were still moving along with or without me. ME3 import was also good, although Shepard was shifted to a default (scars removed) I was still able to get him somewhat back on the path I liked. The import tool is not perfect but it can be if given a chance. Rannoch and Tuchanka would have been awful as some retconned default.

And I hope no one says that DA2 would have been a superior game if the import tool didn't exist.

Rannoch is debatable 

I would also say of all the Bioware games to feature an import, DA2 is the one which felt the most useless, since it did not feature a continued narrative from DA:O and featured a completely different protagonist.

[spirosz]

I didn't even realize going into DAII that they were going to utilize an import to an extent similar to ME, especially with a new protagonist, I thought it was going to be a fresh start in the same setting.