655 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

Just have the save import system be for carrying over small choices that get expanded upon later, along with smaller choices that affect our own character or their companions, while leaving the bigger choices to be isolated into their respective games. Basically a hybrid of a choice import system and a stand alone game model, with room to improve as methods of game making and technology increases as well.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 26 décembre 2013 - 01:10 .

[AresKeith]

Il Divo wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

I was very satisfied with ME1 to ME2 import. Sure the Council was basically the same even after I killed them but I felt that the world and the characters were still moving along with or without me. ME3 import was also good, although Shepard was shifted to a default (scars removed) I was still able to get him somewhat back on the path I liked. The import tool is not perfect but it can be if given a chance. Rannoch and Tuchanka would have been awful as some retconned default.

And I hope no one says that DA2 would have been a superior game if the import tool didn't exist.

Rannoch is debatable 

I would also say of all the Bioware games to feature an import, DA2 is the one which felt the most useless, since it did not feature a continued narrative from DA:O and featured a completely different protagonist.

Tbh, I only saw the DA2 import as something to spread news of the events of the Blight in Ferelden. Which it kinda did for the Ferelden refugees in Kirkwall

The cameos shouldn't have happened

[Toasted Llama]

AresKeith wrote...

Tbh, I only saw the DA2 import as something to spread news of the events of the Blight in Ferelden. Which it kinda did for the Ferelden refugees in Kirkwall

The cameos shouldn't have happened

That would be different now in DA:I, considering Ferelden is included again, I assume.

Can anyone tell me if Kirkwall is included again or not, by the way?

[Hazegurl]

Il Divo wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

I was very satisfied with ME1 to ME2 import. Sure the Council was basically the same even after I killed them but I felt that the world and the characters were still moving along with or without me. ME3 import was also good, although Shepard was shifted to a default (scars removed) I was still able to get him somewhat back on the path I liked. The import tool is not perfect but it can be if given a chance. Rannoch and Tuchanka would have been awful as some retconned default.

And I hope no one says that DA2 would have been a superior game if the import tool didn't exist.

Rannoch is debatable 

I would also say of all the Bioware games to feature an import, DA2 is the one which felt the most useless, since it did not feature a continued narrative from DA:O and featured a completely different protagonist.

This is why I hope no one here is implying that DA2 could have been a superior game without an import as the tool had hardly any impact on the story. It was limited all on its own.

@Ares, Yeah Rannoch is debatable but these two arcs shows us just what BW can do with the import feature. I'm very interested in seeing where they can go with it.

[AresKeith]

Toasted Llama wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Tbh, I only saw the DA2 import as something to spread news of the events of the Blight in Ferelden. Which it kinda did for the Ferelden refugees in Kirkwall

The cameos shouldn't have happened

That would be different now in DA:I, considering Ferelden is included again, I assume.

Can anyone tell me if Kirkwall is included again or not, by the way?

If you mean the cameos then sure I guess it would be different now, but it should still make sense for those characters to be there

We haven't heard anything about Kirkwall but I doubt it. Although there is part of that DA2 expansion that's being added to DA:I

[Toasted Llama]

AresKeith wrote...

If you mean the cameos then sure I guess it would be different now, but it should still make sense for those characters to be there

We haven't heard anything about Kirkwall but I doubt it. Although there is part of that DA2 expansion that's being added to DA:I

Yeah I'm talking about characters that are still in Ferelden and would have the mindset to at some point, walk up to the Inquisitor and offer their assistance.

If it's just for the sake of  "hey, I still exist, let me talk about what I did the past few years and then disappear again", then it would be better to leave it out of there.

And, obviously, whoever is ruling over Ferelden.

[AlanC9]

slimgrin wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I just don't see why you wouldn't call for a re-tooling of the save import system, instead of just calling for its complete abolishment and exile from ever being used again.

Name one game, one single game where it actually works. If you can't, consider the weeks/months of dev time that could be spent on more productive aspects...like making choices in the current game more nuanced.

Do we have a definition of "actually works" that's usable for this thread?  Also, whether a feature works is a separate question from whether the feature is worth doing.

[addiction21]

Hazegurl wrote...


This is why I hope no one here is implying that DA2 could have been a superior game without an import as the tool had hardly any impact on the story. It was limited all on its own. 

I think that might just be you because I am not getting that impression.

Hazegurl wrote...


@Ares, Yeah Rannoch is debatable but these two arcs shows us just what BW can do with the import feature. I'm very interested in seeing where they can go with it.

Or Tuchanka. They are the only places I applaud the import feature.

I was excited about the import feature when first hearing about it but then on seeing how it was going and the totally unrealistic expectations the fanbase had for it I would not miss it at all.

"You choices carrying over" Turned into "ever imaginable possibility will have its own in depth like in the future" Not to mention how just a few things that are handled badly drown everything else out.

[Il Divo]

addiction21 wrote...

"You choices carrying over" Turned into "ever imaginable possibility will have its own in depth like in the future" Not to mention how just a few things that are handled badly drown everything else out.

Pretty much. Import systems need to be handled extremely carefully, if at all, since from a narrative perspective there are certain decisions which someone could, quite fairly, think have an impact.

The number of important decisions your typical Bioware game provides should be spread out over the course of a three game experience. Mass Effect 1 alone probably had more plot decisions than the series could handle.

[Il Divo]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
For starters it wasn´t even planned, but decided to go do it anyway later.  Ada is the only choice I remember that can have significant results setting-wide. Let´s see what they do with 3, as this time it is actually prepared.

Last I heard they are probably going to ignore choices for the Witcher 2 too.

I'm still curious what there really is to ignore (or not ignore). Isn't most of the Wild Hunt taking place in the heart of the Nilfgaardian Empire? Other than hearing some stuff through the rumor mill (kinda like TES IV: Oblivion) and some DA2 level cameos, I can't say they'd have their work cut out for them in this regard.

[Seboist]

Il Divo wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
For starters it wasn´t even planned, but decided to go do it anyway later.  Ada is the only choice I remember that can have significant results setting-wide. Let´s see what they do with 3, as this time it is actually prepared.

Last I heard they are probably going to ignore choices for the Witcher 2 too.

I'm still curious what there really is to ignore (or not ignore). Isn't most of the Wild Hunt taking place in the heart of the Nilfgaardian Empire? Other than hearing some stuff through the rumor mill (kinda like TES IV: Oblivion) and some DA2 level cameos, I can't say they'd have their work cut out for them in this regard.

It takes place in the North.

[addiction21]

Il Divo wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

"You choices carrying over" Turned into "ever imaginable possibility will have its own in depth like in the future" Not to mention how just a few things that are handled badly drown everything else out.

Pretty much. Import systems need to be handled extremely carefully, if at all, since from a narrative perspective there are certain decisions which someone could, quite fairly, think have an impact.

The number of important decisions your typical Bioware game provides should be spread out over the course of a three game experience. Mass Effect 1 alone probably had more plot decisions than the series could handle.

And, at least to me there has been a clear learning process to it. Thru DAO to ME3 and no its not perfect. Its easy to sit in judgment nitpicking and dissecting every possibility after the fact.

Dragon Age is kind of funky with it "new protag and its about the world" schtick but I can see importing really able to pay off if it is a set story like Mass Effect.

[Hazegurl]

addiction21 wrote...

I think that might just be you because I am not getting that impression.

Perhaps. I'm just wondering what other proof import naysayers have that BW games would be better without the import feature. Using Witcher as an example is irrelevant as it is a different game by a different company.

I was excited about the import feature when first hearing about it but then on seeing how it was going and the totally unrealistic expectations the fanbase had for it I would not miss it at all.

"You choices carrying over" Turned into "ever imaginable possibility will have its own in depth like in the future" Not to mention how just a few things that are handled badly drown everything else out.

From the posts in this forum it seems like the primary issues are the revival of past characters, something the DA team as done a lot of.  I don't see anyone raging over the importance of telling off Goldana or helping the blackstone irregulars.

[BlackInquisitor]

Man, one of Bioware's signature features with their modern games are ability to import save from game to game within the same series, so i'm not sure why people would want them to be off. Bioware might not able to pulled it off successfully with a few glitches and inconsistencies, but it will help them perfect the feature later on. To completely drop a signature and relatively working feature off of their games because of issues in the pasts is a bit too harsh, especially when they can improve. I mean the Mass Effect series managed to pull it off quite well with their trilogy. It can only go forward from there.

And I really don't understand the fears people expressed in this thread about their choices might be retcon in future games, games where the dev haven't even began brainstormed yet. In the long run anything and everything can change. Trying to worry about what might happened 5 or 6 years from now is a bit of a waste of brain cells to me. To me, they can retcon things as much as they like if it will pave the way for better games and better narrative. I might be disappointed with here and there, but ultimately i trust Bioware's judgment on their product with their history of quality games (maybe outside of DA][ - a game i personally love and a lot in here hate)

[bEVEsthda]

ElementalFury106 wrote...

Unlike the majority here, I agree with you.

Some example that really tick me off were the following

1) Leliana appearing in the ending even though my cynically ruthless Warden playthrough in DA:O killed her. What gives
2) Oghren appearing in Awakening even though my same Warden mentioned above ^ killed him. Lame ass excuse too.
3) Anders appearing in DA:2 even though he was left behind at the keep and we saw his corpse...with an arrow through his neck...yeah.

But all those things take place in a different game, and thus a different alternative universe. It's not the game where your Warden killed everybody. Did you play the game only once? Or did you make the same killing choices in every playthrough?

And finally the BEST one of them;

Anders still manages to blow up the chantry in DA:2 even if I

- Told him to screw off in Act 2
- Refused to even start his Justice quest in Act 3
- Refused to distract the Grand Cleric while he plants the "bomb".

The dev back there said the choices you make in the game should impact the game's outcome. Well explain how no matter what I did with Anders, the outcome is the same. Help him or not, same result.

This I don't get at all. Obviously Anders has some resources of his own, and doesn't need you.
You think the game disrespects your choices, just because it doesn't make you some overpowerful god that decides every detail?

[Il Divo]

Hazegurl wrote...

This is why I hope no one here is implying that DA2 could have been a superior game without an import as the tool had hardly any impact on the story. It was limited all on its own. 

No feature, especially one as hyped as the import function, should seem pointless. DA2 might have been a superior game simply by taking most of its obligatory cameos and performing other functions with those resources.  

[MidnightsFury]

KC_Prototype wrote...

Somebody needs a nap and some apple juice.

Or maybe chocolate milk and a nap.

[Fast Jimmy]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Just have the save import system be for carrying over small choices that get expanded upon later, along with smaller choices that affect our own character or their companions, while leaving the bigger choices to be isolated into their respective games. Basically a hybrid of a choice import system and a stand alone game model, with room to improve as methods of game making and technology increases as well.

What I've been arguing for a little while now.

See, I don't see how you can have a huge scale game with choices and not wind up creating ones that are thorny to deal with. 

Heck, given the supposed bad asp level of skill party companions are usually spun around with, even killing them would be world changers. Zevran goes and becomes the leader of The Crows, the most powerful guild of assassin's in the known world. Sten is appointed as the leader of the entire Qunari military. Morrigan plays front-and-center to the biggest calamity the world has ever seen with the Veil Tears. Allistair has magic blood that is tied to the very foundation of the world (dragon/Therin silliness).

How does respecting the deaths of those characters NOT become thorny, Anvil/king/Circle/what-have-you choices aside? This isn't Skyrim, where our companions are as disposable as being a house servant.

[Angrywolves]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Just have the save import system be for carrying over small choices that get expanded upon later, along with smaller choices that affect our own character or their companions, while leaving the bigger choices to be isolated into their respective games. Basically a hybrid of a choice import system and a stand alone game model, with room to improve as methods of game making and technology increases as well.

What I've been arguing for a little while now.

See, I don't see how you can have a huge scale game with choices and not wind up creating ones that are thorny to deal with. 

Heck, given the supposed bad asp level of skill party companions are usually spun around with, even killing them would be world changers. Zevran goes and becomes the leader of The Crows, the most powerful guild of assassin's in the known world. Sten is appointed as the leader of the entire Qunari military. Morrigan plays front-and-center to the biggest calamity the world has ever seen with the Veil Tears. Allistair has magic blood that is tied to the very foundation of the world (dragon/Therin silliness).

How does respecting the deaths of those characters NOT become thorny, Anvil/king/Circle/what-have-you choices aside? This isn't Skyrim, where our companions are as disposable as being a house servant.

True..and Bioware would have to write a path for each decision a player might make, leading to more chances for mistakes as well as an enormous amount of work on their part that seems to me to be largely unnecessary.
Some players complain about romances taking away too much in the way of resources, the save file stuff takes way more in the way of time and resources.<_<

[Hazegurl]

Il Divo wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

This is why I hope no one here is implying that DA2 could have been a superior game without an import as the tool had hardly any impact on the story. It was limited all on its own. 

No feature, especially one as hyped as the import function, should seem pointless. DA2 might have been a superior game simply by taking most of its obligatory cameos and performing other functions with those resources.  

The import for DA2 became pointless because the devs made it that way by trying to retcon certain things away when there was no need to even do so when the game was taking place in a whole new area. DA2 handling of the cameos had nothing at all to do with the import feature getting in the way. It was just badly done period. That is because the game was rushed and probably didn't have much of a budget to begin with, at least not on par with Origins perhaps? The cameos were just easy to throw in there to give player something to do. Otherwise I doubt we would have gotten anything else for Act 3.  

[Cainhurst Crow]

So why are all of our companions basically living gods in these games again? Why couldn't sten become, say, one of the most respected warriors of the qunari without becoming the arishock? Why does zevran have to become leader of the crows? Is merrill going to become queen of the dalish and fenris the new supreme templar commander?

What you are bringing up fast jimmy is a problem that isn't due to save imports, its a universal problem in making certain characters too big for the setting. These problems would be encountered in a game without save imports as much as they would games with them. The "retconing" everyone fears becomes reality with the removal of save imports, so again I question where the benefit is in having a game without save imports over a game with save imports? Because the developers didn't think this through all the way? When did that become a valid excuse?

Also, since you brought up dragon age inquisition, which would be less jarring for players? If dragon age should have a save import feature in inquisition, or if dragon age inquisition comes in and you get no say in what occur in the previous game?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 27 décembre 2013 - 06:34 .