655 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

I think everyone understands that those who are against the save import love choices, you love them so much to the point where you want to be some Uber God King Jesus of Thedas in some Dragon Age Fan Fiction land. Personally, I think all you Fallout fans should just stick to the Fallout series instead of trying to mold BioWare into copying them.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 28 décembre 2013 - 02:35 .

[Il Divo]

Hazegurl wrote...

I think everyone understands that those who are against the save import love choices, you love them so much to the point where you want to be some Uber God King Jesus of Thedas in some Dragon Age Fan Fiction land.

Well, I'd be more likely to pin this on Bioware, the guys who have been enabling the Uber God King Jesus of Thedas idea since Baldur's Gate.

Personally, I think all you Fallout fans should just stick to the Fallout series instead of trying to mold BioWare into copying them.

Someone sounds bitter. If there's blame to be had, it's at Bioware themselves. They followed the Fallout model with Baldur's Gate 2 and have been doing epic choices since.

Modifié par Il Divo, 28 décembre 2013 - 02:40 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

So how many choices has BioWare retconned so far, since the OP claims that ALL choices are going to be retconned anyway? I can only remember two semi-retcons. Anders being a grey warden, and Lelianna survivng. Seems far fetched to conclude on this data, that ALL chocies are going to be retconned, no?

[Angrywolves]

true.
The title of this thread is a clear exaggeration.

[Meltemph]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

but can you prove dragon age with no save import would be more free then dragon age with a save import? Or actually prove empirically and not subjectively that there would be more "freedom" in one game over the other?

And is this freedom genuine?Is this freedom of choice actually freedom if it is ultimately futile and meaningless? All choices boiling down to being rented by the developers until the point in time in which the developers decide that one set of.choices reigns above all? Is what amounts to fanfiction truly a measure of freedom if or simply delusion of choice when that choic is retconned out of existence?

There's no retcon.  Each game stands alone.  There's no need for a retcon, since there was never continuity across games.

Each game simply has its own back story.  One game's backstory might be incompatible with another game's possible outcomes.  One game's backstory might be incompatible with another game's backstory.

But it's obvious that the choices available to use within one game must be narrower if those choices are to be respected by subsequent games.  You can't team up with Saren in ME, partly because doing so would make it virtually impossible to build ME2 such that it allowed for that to have occured.  But eliminating that constraint means that the developers could then offer whatever choices they thought made for a better game, without regard for whether they'd be able to work with them later.

Or they could give us a lot more choice that effect the PC, instead of the world.  Choosing to try and make yourself king, and the game only being allowed to have Enora and Alistar as king could have ended up having very different consequences for the PC, but still keeping the integrity of the setting in tact from one game to the next, while have the setting change consequences for you based on your decisions.  

Making the choices more personal allows much more consequences that could be experienced and carried over from game to game, since those choices were personal to the PC.  

Modifié par Meltemph, 28 décembre 2013 - 04:17 .

[AlanC9]

Il Divo wrote...

Personally, I think all you Fallout fans should just stick to the Fallout series instead of trying to mold BioWare into copying them.

Someone sounds bitter. If there's blame to be had, it's at Bioware themselves. They followed the Fallout model with Baldur's Gate 2 and have been doing epic choices since.

Following the Fallout model would mean canonizing stuff for the sequels, wouldn't it? Shady Sands can go a few different ways in FO1, but only happens one way in FO2. 

I'm very much in favor of this for ME4, where the save import has outlived its usefulness. I don't think we've quite reached that point with DA.

Modifié par AlanC9, 28 décembre 2013 - 04:26 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

AlanC9 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Personally, I think all you Fallout fans should just stick to the Fallout series instead of trying to mold BioWare into copying them.

Someone sounds bitter. If there's blame to be had, it's at Bioware themselves. They followed the Fallout model with Baldur's Gate 2 and have been doing epic choices since.

Following the Fallout model would mean canonizing stuff for the sequels, wouldn't it? Shady Sands can go a few different ways in FO1, but only happens one way in FO2. 

I'm very much in favor of this for ME4, where the save import has outlived its usefulness. I don't think we've quite reached that point with DA.

The new mass effect game isn't going to be about Shepard though, and the galaxy is a big place. The game might not even be set after the Reaper invasion, it could be set during or previous. If it is set after, then the only choice that needs to be "retconned" would be Shepard's final choice.

[Il Divo]

AlanC9 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Personally, I think all you Fallout fans should just stick to the Fallout series instead of trying to mold BioWare into copying them.

Someone sounds bitter. If there's blame to be had, it's at Bioware themselves. They followed the Fallout model with Baldur's Gate 2 and have been doing epic choices since.

Following the Fallout model would mean canonizing stuff for the sequels, wouldn't it? Shady Sands can go a few different ways in FO1, but only happens one way in FO2. 

I'm very much in favor of this for ME4, where the save import has outlived its usefulness. I don't think we've quite reached that point with DA.

Issue with DA is that I don't really see the import as having ever been useful, especially with the shift in perspective from Warden to Hawke. With the return of Morrigan/Flemeth/possible old God child, this is where we're going to see if Bioware's going to fall into the Collector Base/Rachni trap. And given how mind-bending a plot involving an OGB should be, there are more than a few questions of whether Bioware can do it justice, without compromising either its importance or game length.

The genophage arc/Geth-Quarian war was the import system at its best, and even that wasn't perfect.

Modifié par Il Divo, 28 décembre 2013 - 05:44 .

[FGT3000]

i think that ill be fine yus as long as a nother starchild doesnt pop op and say thing that dont make sense and give you weird choices like fusion wht darkspawn creepy dont you think.

[AlanC9]

Il Divo wrote...
Issue with DA is that I don't really see the import as having ever been useful, especially with the shift in perspective from Warden to Hawke. With the return of Morrigan/Flemeth/possible old God child, this is where we're going to see if Bioware's going to fall into the Collector Base/Rachni trap. And given how mind-bending a plot involving an OGB should be, there are more than a few questions of whether Bioware can do it justice, without compromising either its importance or game length.

The genophage arc/Geth-Quarian war was the import system at its best, and even that wasn't perfect.

I agree. I was pushing for the DR to be canon before Awakening shipped, IIRC, pretty much for your reasons.

[Sanunes]

Il Divo wrote...

Issue with DA is that I don't really see the import as having ever been useful, especially with the shift in perspective from Warden to Hawke. With the return of Morrigan/Flemeth/possible old God child, this is where we're going to see if Bioware's going to fall into the Collector Base/Rachni trap. And given how mind-bending a plot involving an OGB should be, there are more than a few questions of whether Bioware can do it justice, without compromising either its importance or game length.

The genophage arc/Geth-Quarian war was the import system at its best, and even that wasn't perfect.

The problem I have with BioWare going near the OGB is there is also a lot of head-canon involved and to make it not fall into the Collector Base/Rachni area to me might require a lot more trimmed content because the other choices where areas and not a character.

An example would be with the Rachni issue, if that mission was exactly the same, but the final room was different so if you saved the queen she would be there, but instead of a clone queen if you destroyed her it was test tube breeding area with a unique guardian.  I think that would have had a better reception.

Even with the Collector Base if there was a story mission that was based on that choice and didn't have much impact on the rest of the game I could see it working fairly well.  Such as if they had a mission where you fought Cerberus, but if you destroyed the Collector Base the mission took place on the Collector Base if you did destroy it, the mission would take place on a Cerberus science vessel.

No people who know more about how Dragon Age lore works might come up with something like that as well for Dragon Age, but there is one thing that would have to be considered and that is it was mentioned that if we did not preform the ritual the OGB never happens.  With my limited experience with development it could be there were plans for a larger choice in the game itself, but the ugly head of making a release date happened cutting that content.

[SaltBot]

Star fury wrote...

What? it's bull**** and you don't know anything about retcons or Fallout. I wish people at least learned a meaning of "retconning" before they start to throw it everywhere. 

Fallout always had the set canon for it's history. Shady Sands & NCR history is NOT a retcon, Black Isle and Bethesda are not Bioware, and Fallout never recognised all choices in sequels. There were always
canonical choices and any alternative choices were non-canon.

Yes, I mis-used the word 'retcon', and for that I apologise.  I have played both Fallout 1 and Fallout 3 for long enough to know more than "nothing" about Fallout.  I am not arguing for or against "the set canon" that Fallout and other games have utilised in sequels, nor am I ragging on the Fallout series in general.  They are great games.  I was merely pointing out how amusing it is that this argument has come so far from its beginnings.

Il Divo wrote...

What are you talking about? How does a new IP model logically follow from this? Sylvius is suggesting exactly what previous efforts, like Fallout 2 and Baldur's Gate 2 have done. Neither of those required 5-6 years of development and overall perception seems to be that they're some of the best RPGs out there.

Sylvius is arguing for a scenario where "each game stands alone" (direct quote).  Both Fallout 2 and Baldur's Gate 2 relied on either previous knowledge of the first game, or references from NPCs as to what happened in the first game to fill in those people who missed it.  They did not rely heavily on any sort of save-import or over-arching effect of choices from their predecessors, but they would not exist as games if their backstory was "incompatible with another game's backstory" (again, direct quote).

Il Divo wrote...

Or we'd be playing games in the style of Fallout 2 and Baldur's Gate 2. Your bad logic is a result of assuming that people who dislike the save import also dislike choices, which is not necessarily true.

I never said that any of us dislike choices.  Quite the contrary.  The OP's open question to BW that began this very thread is "why should I care about choice when I know you will probably retcon them in the future?"  My response (now a little more fleshed out since everyone seemed to miss the point the first time): you should care about choice because you don't KNOW what will PROBABLY be retconned any more than you KNOW which choices will affect the game you are currently in and which will have lasting effects in sequels.  If you put yourself in the shoes of...yourself, but you are playing DA:O for the very first time, you have no idea at the time of making a choice which ones will effect the current game, or sequels, or maybe nothing at all.  The future hand-waving of these choices does not lessen their value at the time of experience unless you are unfairly using hindsight to judge its value.  If everyone had the same attitude of the OP, ie. "why am I even making this choice if it probably won't matter?", then BW would see no demand for choices in their games and would probably give us a game without any choices at all.

If all the games we play are in the style of Fallout and Baldur's Gate 2 then I will sleep soundly.  Nobody here at the moment is trying in any way to lessen the value of choices that have consequences within the boundaries of the game they are being made in.  However, that's not the message that this thread was started with.  I know it's a lot to ask you to go back through 20+ pages of posts, but it might be something to do if you're bored today.

Modifié par SaltBot, 28 décembre 2013 - 11:20 .

[Angrywolves]

AlanC9 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
Issue with DA is that I don't really see the import as having ever been useful, especially with the shift in perspective from Warden to Hawke. With the return of Morrigan/Flemeth/possible old God child, this is where we're going to see if Bioware's going to fall into the Collector Base/Rachni trap. And given how mind-bending a plot involving an OGB should be, there are more than a few questions of whether Bioware can do it justice, without compromising either its importance or game length.

The genophage arc/Geth-Quarian war was the import system at its best, and even that wasn't perfect.

I agree. I was pushing for the DR to be canon before Awakening shipped, IIRC, pretty much for your reasons.

The DR SHOULD be cannon.If players chose not to do it then it should be their loss, imo.

So I don't agree with the developers on that point.:innocent::innocent:

[Deadmac]

David Gaider wrote...
The primary purpose for putting a choice into a game is for it to affect that game.

As for choices carrying between games, some will have a bigger impact. Some will have a minor impact, as in simply being referenced. Some won't come up at all, or will be ignored. If your intent is to say that, knowing that some of those choices won't be carried over in the way you like (even if others will) that we should offer no choices at all in the current game...then I don't know what to tell you. I'm uncertain which games you play that abide by such criteria. Ultimately our primary goal is to make DA Inquisition a fun game, and to have the choices you make in Inquisition have a large impact within DA Inquisition. If that's insufficient, consider yourself duly warned.

While I have been a harsh critic of 'Dragon Age II', I do agree with Mr. Gaider's approach to video game storytelling. Each game should have a beginning, middle, and end. 'Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic' contained a rock solid story, which didn't need to rely upon a sequel. 'SW: The Sith Lords' was trying too hard to hang onto the first game. If Obsidian used a standalone storyline, 'The Sith Lords' could have stood apart from the original game.

...and, that is why 'Dragon Age' is a success. Even though I am not a big fan of 'Dragon Age II', I think its strength comes from being a side story.

Plus, 'Dragon Age' is a dark fantasy world filled with supernatural phenomenon. Even though players had a choice in killing or not killing a main character, the reason for their sudden appearance could be easily explained. As long as the overall story is solid, I could care less if a character is dead or alive.

When it comes to story expectations, I think players set themselves up for a fall.

Modifié par Deadmac, 28 décembre 2013 - 11:43 .

[Sanunes]

Deadmac wrote...

While I have been a harsh critic of 'Dragon Age II', I do agree with Mr. Gaider's approach to video game storytelling. Each game should have a beginning, middle, and end. 'Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic' contained a rock solid story, which didn't need to rely upon a sequel. 'SW: The Sith Lords' was trying too hard to hang onto the first game. If Obsidian used a standalone storyline, 'The Sith Lords' could have stood apart from the original game. 

...and, that is why 'Dragon Age' is a success. Even though I am not a big fan of 'Dragon Age II', I think its strength comes from being a side story.

Plus, 'Dragon Age' is a dark fantasy world filled with supernatural phenomenon. Even though players had a choice in killing or not killing a main character, the reason for their sudden appearance could be easily explained. As long as the overall story is solid, I could care less if a character is dead or alive.

When it comes to story expectations, I think players set themselves up for a fall.

Of course, to me the imports that mean more to me are normally the ones that really don't impact the game, but provide continuality in other ways. Judging by your profile you haven't played Mass Effect, but one of my favorites from the series involves Conrad Verner.  In Mass Effect 1 you talk to him several times in the game picking either Nice/Harsh responses. Then in Mass Effect 2 he re-appears with a side quest and because of an import bug he always takes the approach if you were harsh to him.  When you encounter him in Mass Effect 3 he will first appologize for being harsh with Shepard to acknowledge the import bug and then the little side-quest he gives you there has a nod to three other side quests in the first Mass Effect game and also has a conversation/arugement to show they have listened to the people on the BSN argueing about the same topic.

[FGT3000]

bw may or may not recon many choices but DO:I is there make it or break it game so i do think they will listen. I have seen a few vid where they sad that they will be listening more closely but my adv to is that they dont make a enemy ncp wicht give you three choices like in ME3. (aka the old god child beware )

[Munnx]

My problem ist we switch allways character...

we/I play all Mass effect and i play the Comander! i See him allways and he build a Reputation.

i Will se the Companions Older ... and my hero!

sry. My bad eng...

[Hazegurl]

Il Divo wrote...
Well, I'd be more likely to pin this on Bioware, the guys who have been enabling the Uber God King Jesus of Thedas idea since Baldur's Gate.

True.

Someone sounds bitter. If there's blame to be had, it's at Bioware themselves. They followed the Fallout model with Baldur's Gate 2 and have been doing epic choices since.

Not bitter at all. It's not like you guys run BioWare. I just don't get the desire to want the same old game as another company. All it does is foster copy cat behavior instead of originality. It's like every MMO trying to be WOW cause the model was a success for them. Just because a model is successful for another company doesn't mean others shouldn't find their own niche and work to perfect it.  

[Mike3207]

Angrywolves wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
Issue with DA is that I don't really see the import as having ever been useful, especially with the shift in perspective from Warden to Hawke. With the return of Morrigan/Flemeth/possible old God child, this is where we're going to see if Bioware's going to fall into the Collector Base/Rachni trap. And given how mind-bending a plot involving an OGB should be, there are more than a few questions of whether Bioware can do it justice, without compromising either its importance or game length.

The genophage arc/Geth-Quarian war was the import system at its best, and even that wasn't perfect.

I agree. I was pushing for the DR to be canon before Awakening shipped, IIRC, pretty much for your reasons.

The DR SHOULD be cannon.If players chose not to do it then it should be their loss, imo.

So I don't agree with the developers on that point.:innocent::innocent:

The decision you make on whether or not to go through with the Dark Ritual is canon-because everyone will face that decision. The OGB is not, because not everyone will choose to do the Dark Ritual.

[Il Divo]

Hazegurl wrote...

Not bitter at all. It's not like you guys run BioWare. I just don't get the desire to want the same old game as another company. All it does is foster copy cat behavior instead of originality. It's like every MMO trying to be WOW cause the model was a success for them. Just because a model is successful for another company doesn't mean others shouldn't find their own niche and work to perfect it.  

Keep in mind, from your post, you would think Bioware is this complete newcomer who came up with this great new idea. They also have an established style and fan base to deal with.

They themselves have been supporting a lot of the ideas which make the import system such a failure, since 1998 when Baldur's Gate hit. While it sounds nice to just say "no more power fantasies!", for the fans who've been living off that hype, it's not going to be so easy. Hell, DA2 was criticized partially because the PC was so powerless, which is very well the end result of what the save import will lead to.

You're essentially telling fans who have been playing that style of Bioware games for the last 15 years "Go find some other developer, this one's mine!", which isn't going to be taken happily, especially for a feature that is currently a gimmick and not guaranteed to work.

Modifié par Il Divo, 29 décembre 2013 - 02:10 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Not to be mean, but telling fans we are going to try and make a game that isn't a marry sue-centric tale doesn't sound like kicking them to the curb, just telling them to expect a higher standard of story to be told. And it isn't as if a power fantasy lies in the overall game of bioware, it lies more in setting up the main character as unbeatable and hyping them up too much. Dragon age origins, had it simply not been so reliant on the warden being the only one who could save the world out of destiny, but maybe the only warden close enough to do it, would have made it less of a power fantasy for example. Whoever was left ruling telling the warden they'd consider their boon request and that they were grateful, instead of saying "Oh yeah we will totally just throw out all laws and conventions just because you said so" would have made it less a power fantasy.

It isn't necessarily only what the main character does that makes it a power fantasy, but how they and what they want is treated that helps foster the attitude. Minor adjustments and alterations could arguably lessen the amount of such power trips immensely.

[Il Divo]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Not to be mean, but telling fans we are going to try and make a game that isn't a marry sue-centric tale doesn't sound like kicking them to the curb, just telling them to expect a higher standard of story to be told. And it isn't as if a power fantasy lies in the overall game of bioware, it lies more in setting up the main character as unbeatable and hyping them up too much. Dragon age origins, had it simply not been so reliant on the warden being the only one who could save the world out of destiny, but maybe the only warden close enough to do it, would have made it less of a power fantasy for example. Whoever was left ruling telling the warden they'd consider their boon request and that they were grateful, instead of saying "Oh yeah we will totally just throw out all laws and conventions just because you said so" would have made it less a power fantasy.

It isn't necessarily only what the main character does that makes it a power fantasy, but how they and what they want is treated that helps foster the attitude. Minor adjustments and alterations could arguably lessen the amount of such power trips immensely.

This isn't a solution though. Yes, this can help solve the power fantasy problem with some careful writing, but the key issue others have brought up is how the save import can be more manageable without world-changing decisions. Even if you hype the PC up less, if you still have him deciding issues like the Old God Baby, the import function will still never work.

What the main character does is the pure substance of the import problem, not how it's portrayed.

[Fast Jimmy]

When I hear people say "the player shouldn't be allowed to make big choices," I hear "Bioware should make a more linear game."

Choices that let the player "define their character" or "make more personal choices" but result in the same exact outcomes are linear in nature. Sure, it may result in a slight dialogue change or a scene playing of differently/showing different characters... but aren't those the critiques of how the Save Import is addressed in sequels?

Not every choice needs to be "appoint a king" or "save or destroy an epic level artifact," but without any level of divergence in the story, either in terms of how the choice should influence the future (DA:O) or the content the player sees (TW2), then having the choices diminishes their worth.

[David7204]

Let's see how many times we all can use 'power fantasy' or 'power trip' in a paragraph!

[Angrywolves]

Mike Smith wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
Issue with DA is that I don't really see the import as having ever been useful, especially with the shift in perspective from Warden to Hawke. With the return of Morrigan/Flemeth/possible old God child, this is where we're going to see if Bioware's going to fall into the Collector Base/Rachni trap. And given how mind-bending a plot involving an OGB should be, there are more than a few questions of whether Bioware can do it justice, without compromising either its importance or game length.

The genophage arc/Geth-Quarian war was the import system at its best, and even that wasn't perfect.

I agree. I was pushing for the DR to be canon before Awakening shipped, IIRC, pretty much for your reasons.

The DR SHOULD be cannon.If players chose not to do it then it should be their loss, imo.

So I don't agree with the developers on that point.:innocent::innocent:

The decision you make on whether or not to go through with the Dark Ritual is canon-because everyone will face that decision. The OGB is not, because not everyone will choose to do the Dark Ritual.

I know that. I think it shoulds be canon.
I agree with fast jimmy.At some point Bioware is going to have to abandon the save imports.It will get too complicated for them to continue.:innocent:Then what ? Either a future DA will have things such as an OBG and players who didn't do the DR will feel retconned or the future DA won't have the OGB and those of us who did the DR will feel cheated.