655 réponses à ce sujet

[Angrywolves]

David7204 wrote...

That's a very nice utterly irrelevant and misleading tirade.

wasn't a tirade.But I understand your pathology.

:innocent:

Modifié par Angrywolves, 29 décembre 2013 - 06:25 .

[Il Divo]

David7204 wrote...

Guess what?

This isn't any other medium. It is what it is.

Excellent observation. I'm glad you noticed that.

Hence my point that in this medium, the one we're operating in, the Old God Child is going to lead to a half-assed plot point.

Modifié par Il Divo, 29 décembre 2013 - 06:32 .

[David7204]

Perhaps.

A possibility is that one choice is reacted to very well by the story, and one isn't. Which happens quite often in Mass Effect. For example, having Jack spare the man at the end of her loyalty mission fits in well with her arc in ME 3. Forcing her to kill him really doesn't. I wouldn't call her becoming a teacher a 'half assed plot point.' It's a perfectly satisfying outcome to a player making Paragon choices.

Modifié par David7204, 29 décembre 2013 - 06:42 .

[Angrywolves]

Hence my point that in this medium, the one we're operating in, the Old God Child is going to lead to a half-assed plot point.


probably that.

But back on point.
I think we'll just see the OGB anyway., those of us who did the ritual.I doubt Morrigan is even caring for him.Ithink he has nannies.

Getting rid of the save imports is something that has to come.It just has to.Will take too much programnming to configure games indefinitely to fit everybody's choices.
Some players think one of the chairs in the pictures that were released is some kind of baby chair.I don't see that.No way we can tell imo.

Modifié par Angrywolves, 29 décembre 2013 - 06:45 .

[David7204]

No, it does not 'have to come.'

[Angrywolves]

we shall see.

[Nerdage]

Il Divo wrote...

Rules of foreshadowing. It's the same concept behind how keeping the Collector Base made everybody in the party flip out, which ultimately amounted to nothing.

Sure, on a technical level, you can argue we're making assumptions. There was no guarantee that TIM might find something from the Collector Base. But considering that was what all our efforts went towards and everyone is terrified of the implications, it should amount to something.

In Morrigan's case, the very reason she accompanies the protagonist, based on her and Flemeth's motivations, is for the possibility of creating this God Child. And we know that Morrigan (and likely Flemeth) will have a huge role to play in DAI, according to the build-up in DA:O. The God Child being just a hyped up mage would be a failure on Bioware's part, since in any other medium they could explore the full implications.

But the collector base choice is sold as "do you trust TIM with the power of knowledge and risk him turning against you (and the rest of the galaxy) or give up one of the most advanced pieces of technology in the galaxy when you still have no real idea how to fight the reapers?"

You'd expect then that, come ME3, you'd be thinking: "Damn, I wish I hadn't given TIM that base!", or: "The reapers are here! I wish I'd kept that base!", but no. The base being rescued neither helps defeat the reapers nor strengthens Cerberus when they turn on you, it's just a matter of fact which basically never comes up.

On the other hand, there's no reason to assume the child is important to anything in particular, we only know that it's important to Flemeth and then Morrigan. It may only be useful to Flemeth given her unique nature, so she wanted it to increase her own power, and Morrigan is trying to keep it from her and so preventing it filling whatever world-changing potential it has. Given Flemeth's "She's a girl who thinks the knows what's what better than I or anyone" when asked about Morrigan you could even call that foreshadowed. So then the implications of the choice may only be giving Flemeth greater cause to hunt Morrigan, and that's something which could easily be explored in one quest.

I think there could easily be a relatively mundane but still dramatic and satisfying (on a character level, rather than a world level) outcome which doesn't leave players feeling like the game is trying to worm its way around their decisions, but I guess that depends how invested you are in the idea of it being world-changing.

[Il Divo]

nerdage wrote...

But the collector base choice is sold as "do you trust TIM with the power of knowledge and risk him turning against you (and the rest of the galaxy) or give up one of the most advanced pieces of technology in the galaxy when you still have no real idea how to fight the reapers?"

You'd expect then that, come ME3, you'd be thinking: "Damn, I wish I hadn't given TIM that base!", or: "The reapers are here! I wish I'd kept that base!", but no. The base being rescued neither helps defeat the reapers nor strengthens Cerberus when they turn on you, it's just a matter of fact which basically never comes up.

But Morrigan's is sold on the exact same premise. Do you trust her with this child, who has the soul of an evil God, which can have plenty of unforeseen consequences? 

The consequences don't need to be evil necessarily, that's where the doubt comes in on the part of the player. But diminishing that to "he's just a bit stronger than magic" nullifies the build-up from both Morrigan and Flemeth. I don't think there's a way to sell the Collector Base as being important in a manner which wouldn't equally apply to Dragon Age, given the similar set-ups.  

On the other hand, there's no reason to assume the child is important to anything in particular, we only know that it's important to Flemeth and then Morrigan. It may only be useful to Flemeth given her unique nature, so she wanted it to increase her own power, and Morrigan is trying to keep it from her and so preventing it filling whatever world-changing potential it has. Given Flemeth's "She's a girl who thinks the knows what's what better than I or anyone" when asked about Morrigan you could even call that foreshadowed. So then the implications of the choice may only be giving Flemeth greater cause to hunt Morrigan, and that's something which could easily be explored in one quest.

I'd say we have even more reason to believe the child is important in DA:O, given that Flemeth (herself a significant presence) wants it, where as TIM is still only relying on theories, which might not pan out regarding the Collector Base.

Flemeth's search for this child is something that would, properly-speaking, drive an entire narrative.

Modifié par Il Divo, 29 décembre 2013 - 07:47 .

[Angrywolves]

I think Flemeth correctly deduced that Morrigan would take the child and run off somewhere to raise it and try to accumulate personal power for herself.
Bioware has said we'll see the human side of Morrigan in DAI.Maybe she has been softened by the experience of motherhood. Women often are.
I think players assume things about Flemeth's intentions that are incorrect.Certainly they aren't proven imo.
I don't think Flemeth is hunting Morrigan.I think she knows exactly where Morrigan is, and we will see that in DAI.

Agree that the OGB could drive an entire narrative but Bioware has boxed themselves into a corner with the way they've handled it.:innocent:

Modifié par Angrywolves, 29 décembre 2013 - 08:00 .

[ianvillan]

Angrywolves wrote...

I think Flemeth correctly deduced that Morrigan would take the child and run off somewhere to raise it and try to accumulate personal power for herself.
Bioware has said we'll see the human side of Morrigan in DAI.Maybe she has been softened by the experience of motherhood. Women often are.
I think players assume things about Flemeth's intentions that are incorrect.Certainly they aren't proven imo.
I don't think Flemeth is hunting Morrigan.I think she knows exactly where Morrigan is, and we will see that in DAI.

Agree that the OGB could drive an entire narrative but Bioware has boxed themselves into a corner with the way they've handled it.:innocent:

I think you are right about this, I don't think Flemeth would want to raise a child with all that entails when a massive war and cataclysm that she may of had a part in creating is about to happen.

Flemeth raised Morrigan strong and with her ideals and is confident that Morrigan can take care of the child till she is ready to take the child back. Knowing Flemeth she probably raised Morrigan for that exact perpose all along.

[Angrywolves]

and the other daughters may have had individual purposes as well.Certainly the Yevana thing came out badly and I wonder how badly that hurt Flemeth.
The whole Maric and dragons blood thing is ripe for a retcon as well. We don't know why that was done, made a big deal of and involved the books. We don't know if that will all be explained in DAI or if it will be ignored and forgotten.

[ianvillan]

Angrywolves wrote...

and the other daughters may have had individual purposes as well.Certainly the Yevana thing came out badly and I wonder how badly that hurt Flemeth.
The whole Maric and dragons blood thing is ripe for a retcon as well. We don't know why that was done, made a big deal of and involved the books. We don't know if that will all be explained in DAI or if it will be ignored and forgotten.

I think it might of been said that Flemeth killed her daughters after they got to a certain age, maybe some of her daughters were meant to take the Morrigan role but the blight had not happened yet so she killed them to start again with a new daughter until the blight did happen.

[Fast Jimmy]

Also, Flemeth risked a LOT sending Morrigan with the Warden. She spent decades raising Morrogna, teaching her, keeping her safe... and then she just cut her loose, risking her being killed by the Blight, or Loghain's forces, to accompany the Warden. And the reason why was to get the OGB.

To have Flemeth possibly lose her ability to transfer to her next host, possibly risking her very existence by shipping off her next host body, means she thought it was INCREDIBLY important. And Flemeth doesn't seem like the type who would risk that much on a magical nature preserve mission.

But we'll likely just have it hand waved in some form. It can't be earth shattering, since the players who did the U.S. will feel like they died in DA:O only to be cheated out of content in future games. And it can't be totally glossed over, for the exact same reasons - if nothing bad happens at all, then everyone who did the U.S. will have done so in vain - their deaths would have been fairly useless, unless the reasons for not doing the DR had nothing to do with the OGB or trusting Morrigan (entirely plausible, but I'd also say not the leading driver for not making that choice).

[Nerdage]

Il Divo wrote...

But Morrigan's is sold on the exact same premise. Do you trust her with this child, who has the soul of an evil God, which can have plenty of unforeseen consequences? 

The consequences don't need to be evil necessarily, that's where the doubt comes in on the part of the player. But diminishing that to "he's just a bit stronger than magic" nullifies the build-up from both Morrigan and Flemeth. I don't think there's a way to sell the Collector Base as being important in a manner which wouldn't equally apply to Dragon Age, given the similar set-ups.  

The risks and possible payoffs are clear to you in ME before you make the choice, and they relate to your main goal of fighting the reapers. The selling point of the ritual is that it saves your life, which it does, but nobody has really claimed anything fantastic about the child. When pressed, Morrigan only says it will "represent freedom for a ancient power" or something like that, which could mean absolutely nothing. Sure it could be a world-changer, but if it isn't I don't think that's a failure to do it justice in any way, because it was only really sold to the player as a byproduct of the ritual to stop you dying to the archdemon in the first place, not to fill some kind of purpose we know anything about.

... It may only be useful to Flemeth given her unique nature ...

I'd say we have even more reason to believe the child is important in DA:O, given that Flemeth (herself a significant presence) wants it, where as TIM is still only relying on theories, which might not pan out regarding the Collector Base.

Flemeth's search for this child is something that would, properly-speaking, drive an entire narrative.

But then, so long as Flemeth doesn't have the child, it's not really important to the world? That's my point. Plenty of people have said Bioware can't possibly honour the choice in-game, to the point where the only possible solution is to retcon the event into ether always happening or never happening, but I think that's overestimating the apparently inevitable and immense consequences of the child even just existing.

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Also, Flemeth risked a LOT sending Morrigan with the Warden. She spent decades raising Morrogna, teaching her, keeping her safe... and then she just cut her loose, risking her being killed by the Blight, or Loghain's forces, to accompany the Warden. And the reason why was to get the OGB.

To have Flemeth possibly lose her ability to transfer to her next host, possibly risking her very existence by shipping off her next host body, means she thought it was INCREDIBLY important. And Flemeth doesn't seem like the type who would risk that much on a magical nature preserve mission.  

You're overthinking it. Bioware doesn't - and we've never seen them - have elaborate series spanning plots. This was likely just a neat series of quests that they thought up, including the option to fight Flemeth, and didn't consdier the setting wide-metaphysical implication of the goal/means.

Bioware games have never been good at having antagonists follow sensible risk/reward paths. Just look at Loghain: under the not-mind-controlled-by-the-archdemon version we got in the final game, he blunders from incompetent decision to incompetent decision, actively undermining his chance at success at every turn. Taking it for grant he could have won his civil war on military terms, the only reasont he war still goes on by the Landsmeet is his own incompetence in every other arena. 

[Angrywolves]

ianvillan wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

and the other daughters may have had individual purposes as well.Certainly the Yevana thing came out badly and I wonder how badly that hurt Flemeth.
The whole Maric and dragons blood thing is ripe for a retcon as well. We don't know why that was done, made a big deal of and involved the books. We don't know if that will all be explained in DAI or if it will be ignored and forgotten.

I think it might of been said that Flemeth killed her daughters after they got to a certain age, maybe some of her daughters were meant to take the Morrigan role but the blight had not happened yet so she killed them to start again with a new daughter until the blight did happen.

The killing daughters stuff was just a Chasind legend and never proven.
Yevana';s existence pretty much disproves the legend.
I feel we'll meet other Flemeth daughters in DAI.

We do need some clarity on the dragonsblood/Maric/Yevana stuff.

[DarthSliver]

nerdage wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Rules of foreshadowing. It's the same concept behind how keeping the Collector Base made everybody in the party flip out, which ultimately amounted to nothing.

Sure, on a technical level, you can argue we're making assumptions. There was no guarantee that TIM might find something from the Collector Base. But considering that was what all our efforts went towards and everyone is terrified of the implications, it should amount to something.

In Morrigan's case, the very reason she accompanies the protagonist, based on her and Flemeth's motivations, is for the possibility of creating this God Child. And we know that Morrigan (and likely Flemeth) will have a huge role to play in DAI, according to the build-up in DA:O. The God Child being just a hyped up mage would be a failure on Bioware's part, since in any other medium they could explore the full implications.

But the collector base choice is sold as "do you trust TIM with the power of knowledge and risk him turning against you (and the rest of the galaxy) or give up one of the most advanced pieces of technology in the galaxy when you still have no real idea how to fight the reapers?"

You'd expect then that, come ME3, you'd be thinking: "Damn, I wish I hadn't given TIM that base!", or: "The reapers are here! I wish I'd kept that base!", but no. The base being rescued neither helps defeat the reapers nor strengthens Cerberus when they turn on you, it's just a matter of fact which basically never comes up.

On the other hand, there's no reason to assume the child is important to anything in particular, we only know that it's important to Flemeth and then Morrigan. It may only be useful to Flemeth given her unique nature, so she wanted it to increase her own power, and Morrigan is trying to keep it from her and so preventing it filling whatever world-changing potential it has. Given Flemeth's "She's a girl who thinks the knows what's what better than I or anyone" when asked about Morrigan you could even call that foreshadowed. So then the implications of the choice may only be giving Flemeth greater cause to hunt Morrigan, and that's something which could easily be explored in one quest.

I think there could easily be a relatively mundane but still dramatic and satisfying (on a character level, rather than a world level) outcome which doesn't leave players feeling like the game is trying to worm its way around their decisions, but I guess that depends how invested you are in the idea of it being world-changing.

I am going to say this in a "nice way" choices didnt mean a damn in Mass Effect because they were more worried about bringing in new players with each game rather than making the choices in previous games matter in the next installment. Mass Effect 3 we should've saw I choices make an impact but what we got in the game was seeing that choices didnt matter worth squat. 

Now this goes into Dragon Age series because both Dragon Age and Mass Effect are Bioware products. I do hope Dragon Age team has learned from the Mass Effect team mistakes and make certain choices actually mean a thing in upcoming Dragon Age games. I dont expect minor choices to see ripping effects but the major choices I do. I feel the OGB if we did it will give us a extra companion in the Dragon Age game to come after Inquistion, but as of now I don't really see it making quite a major effect. The major effect that choice should have is the Wardens not dying in the Fifth Blight, PC and Alistar. Both those characters still being alive might have negative or positive outcomes, Alistar still being alive might change how Feralden has been shaped or how it stands as a Country assuming he was made King. 

[Angrywolves]

fast jimmy wrote:

" transfer to her next host,"

We don't know if that assertion is correct.

Morrigan isn't keeping the child for altruistic purposes.She has the child to use it to gain power for herself.

We don't know about OGB but I think he'll disappear and won't be a factor in future games due to his not being canon. Bioware will try to make us forget him.

[Sanunes]

nerdage wrote...

I think there could easily be a relatively mundane but still dramatic and satisfying (on a character level, rather than a world level) outcome which doesn't leave players feeling like the game is trying to worm its way around their decisions, but I guess that depends how invested you are in the idea of it being world-changing.

My belief is no matter what BioWare does on this front people aren't going to like it for it won't be enough until the game is split into two seperate games, one where the OGB happens and one where it doesn't otherwise its a cheap cop-out and then they will complain the game is too short.  My belief is choices should matter in the game you are playing not in future titles for eventually it will boil down into a two hour game because they are expected to incorporate every single major choice with major impact from the series.

Modifié par Sanunes, 29 décembre 2013 - 09:55 .

[DarthSliver]

Sanunes wrote...

nerdage wrote...

I think there could easily be a relatively mundane but still dramatic and satisfying (on a character level, rather than a world level) outcome which doesn't leave players feeling like the game is trying to worm its way around their decisions, but I guess that depends how invested you are in the idea of it being world-changing.

My belief is no matter what BioWare does on this front people aren't going to like it for it won't be enough until the game is split into two seperate games, one where the OGB happens and one where it doesn't otherwise its a cheap cop-out and then they will complain the game is too short.  My belief is choices should matter in the game you are playing not in future titles for eventually it will boil down into a two hour game because they are expected to incorporate every single major choice with major impact from the series.

Well Dragon Age team never did say choices matter completely going from one game to next game, the fact that some are ending up to matter from previous games is cookie points for them. But I'd say OGB should just pan out into an extra companion in future installments/ How Feralden is shaped as a Country under the rule of Alistar or Aunora. I only say that one because how Alistar was through Origins when going through the game, just because Alistar became King doesnt mean its good for the country. 

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...
Bioware games have never been good at having antagonists follow sensible risk/reward paths. Just look at Loghain: under the not-mind-controlled-by-the-archdemon version we got in the final game, he blunders from incompetent decision to incompetent decision, actively undermining his chance at success at every turn. Taking it for grant he could have won his civil war on military terms, the only reasont he war still goes on by the Landsmeet is his own incompetence in every other arena. 

Well, it's not precisely incompetent decisions. As I read it, his problem is more like bad intel. If he had been correct about the Wardens being both dangerous to the kingdom and not particularly important for the war, his plan yould have made a lot more sense.

[Fast Jimmy]

In Exile wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Also, Flemeth risked a LOT sending Morrigan with the Warden. She spent decades raising Morrogna, teaching her, keeping her safe... and then she just cut her loose, risking her being killed by the Blight, or Loghain's forces, to accompany the Warden. And the reason why was to get the OGB.

To have Flemeth possibly lose her ability to transfer to her next host, possibly risking her very existence by shipping off her next host body, means she thought it was INCREDIBLY important. And Flemeth doesn't seem like the type who would risk that much on a magical nature preserve mission.  

You're overthinking it. Bioware doesn't - and we've never seen them - have elaborate series spanning plots. This was likely just a neat series of quests that they thought up, including the option to fight Flemeth, and didn't consdier the setting wide-metaphysical implication of the goal/means.

Bioware games have never been good at having antagonists follow sensible risk/reward paths. Just look at Loghain: under the not-mind-controlled-by-the-archdemon version we got in the final game, he blunders from incompetent decision to incompetent decision, actively undermining his chance at success at every turn. Taking it for grant he could have won his civil war on military terms, the only reasont he war still goes on by the Landsmeet is his own incompetence in every other arena. 

But this is why Bioware would be better served by a canon from game to game, instead of an attempt at the Save Import. If they can't be trusted to give choices that can be properly followed up on, like you ascertain, then their only viable way to course correct inbetween games in a series would be to set a canon that let's them work off the choices they want to work off of, not be tied to every variance they included on a choice that they hadn't taken to the next logical conclusional step.

[Fast Jimmy]

AlanC9 wrote...

In Exile wrote...
Bioware games have never been good at having antagonists follow sensible risk/reward paths. Just look at Loghain: under the not-mind-controlled-by-the-archdemon version we got in the final game, he blunders from incompetent decision to incompetent decision, actively undermining his chance at success at every turn. Taking it for grant he could have won his civil war on military terms, the only reasont he war still goes on by the Landsmeet is his own incompetence in every other arena. 

Well, it's not precisely incompetent decisions. As I read it, his problem is more like bad intel. If he had been correct about the Wardens being both dangerous to the kingdom and not particularly important for the war, his plan yould have made a lot more sense.

You could say that the way he perceived things - that the Wardens were a danger that needed to be put down and where he would need to take any steps neccessary to put down the civil war before it left them even more exposed, wound up becoming reality...

[Hazegurl]

Il Divo wrote...
You don't see why they shouldn't expand to a feature, which for more than a few reasons, will never pan out? Especially while they want to hold onto their "world-shaking decisions"? If Bioware wants to drop the latter, shoot for the stars! But nothing that they have advertised hints that they have learned that lesson.

Hell, I'd love to see what ME4 is going to turn up, with the decisions the writers let Shepard make.

You'll never know if it'll never pan out by quitting over every little mistake made.  As for ME4, well the story of the Reapers is done along with Shepard's so I don't mind them doing something different like an alternate universe. They don't have to carry those choices over. Not because I didn't like them but because that trilogy is done and they don't even want to call it ME4.

Who said anything about resources before? I pointed out that one of DA2's myriad of criticisms is that players felt like Hawke did not achieve anything of significance, he's powerless. There was no divergent content. You yourself, only just earlier, remarked on how if gamers got off their power fantasy, the save import would function.

It seems that quite a few gamers do not want to get off that power fantasy, hence the problem. 

I was talking about another poster mentioning resources in response to my question of how DA2's problems had anything to do with the import feature. Actually I believe that there should be a compromise. A series of small and even insignificant PC choices can lead to several larger more significant choices for the last game of the story. Yes, It would pretty much mean that the player would have to get over the power fantasy for every game. However, it doesn't mean that players can't feel powerful in other ways beyond deciding every single world changing event.  

The problem with Hawke had nothing to do with the import feature, it was the failure of the writers, the company, and so on.  Keeping him in one location meant that they could have had Hawke do anything including overthrow Meredith and become Viscount in the game. What difference would it make when the next game would star a new PC in another set of locations? Hawke becomes Viscount anyway if he sides with the Templars so why couldn't they have let it happen in game instead of being told to us after killing Meredith? Mages rebel anyway. Why couldn't they have Hawke lead a full scale Mage rebellion during Act 2? You're argument that the import feature is holding the story back is moot when the writers could have given players the massive choices anyway and it still would have transferred well to the inquisition. 

Hawke leads a mage rebellion to overthrow Meredith in Act 2 but at the end of Act 3 Hawke has to save the Mages and flee Kirkwall. Or he could change his mind and put them down to secure his own escape.

Hawke overthrows Meredith and becomes Viscount in Act 2. He deals with the possible march of the Divine on Kirkwall, Mages rebelling and so forth which leads to Hawke putting down a full blown rebellion and remain the Viscount at the end of Act 3 or he could decide to help the Mages anyway.

From a resource perspective, the problem isn't "there's not enough money for other game features". The problem is Bioware has to take into account 3+different plot lines and the amount of time they spend on each is less time for the overall narrative. Perfect example: look at what happened to the Rachni/Collector Base decisions. Lack of resources killed these two plot points stone dead.

 
I agree that something more could have been done with the Collector base (if you mean the ending choice). As for the Rachni, well I wasn't expecting much from them because it was an old conflict. Personally, I think players who killed the first Rachni Queen shouldn't have gotten a Rachni mission. But I do like the idea that if you free the clone one she turns on you.  

I'm fully expecting the Old God Child plot point to fail because in any other medium, such as a book, you could give such a plot point proper exposition.

I'm not really interested in the whole God child thing. I love Morrigan but she could have stayed in the Eluvian.  I just hope that her story will be interesting since she's coming back.

[Angrywolves]

Morrigan will obviously be the central character in DAI that your Inquisitor has dealings with.

I would have liked the OGB to be important in future games, but I don't trust Bioware to handle it properly.

Modifié par Angrywolves, 30 décembre 2013 - 02:46 .