154 réponses à ce sujet

[Hrungr]

David Gaider wrote...

Hrungr wrote...
Thanks for chiming in on this. This last little bit is interesting though - by "total amount of content", I assume that means companion banter as well. In a game as large as DAI appears to be I'm kinda surprised the companion content wasn't upped as well.

That's probably due to my developer terminology--which isn't always the same as fan terminology (hence why I defined a few things in my response above, as I wasn't sure). From our perspective, the banter between followers that you hear throughout the game isn't part of the same batch of content as the follower interactions. That's considered "exploration writing", and comes from the budget assigned to levels (as the more levels there are, the more banter we'll need).

Thanks for the quick clarification David. And it makes more sense the banter would be proportionate to the amount of level content.

[werewoof]

kheldorin wrote...

tiktac wrote...

that's good to hear. i was all for the personal plot stuff in da2, but at times it felt kind of disjointed because like you said, a) you're being "told" when it's okay to to talk to them and if it's not, you just get a default bark and rarely was it just a casual chat about, say, where they're from, but a big personal event. it felt like i was being told that i know these characters really well, even though i didn't always feel like i did. 

of course some of that can be attributed to da2's limited developmental time. but i am looking forward to being able to chat them up for fun again.

although i'll never understand people who complain about how origins' content was gated and "omg you're CUTTING US OFF FROM CONTENT i actually have to TALK TO THESE PEOPLE to get to access it" and then subsequently ask for realism. even less so people who make a fuss over how "you can exhaust all those options in ten minutes if you use some gifts"

like alrighty then you deliberately exploited a game mechanic to blast through content you could have just as easily spaced out by not asking it all at once and then complained about it, cool 

Because you don't know when that conversation opportunity would expire. If you go back to camp very rarely, ie space your conversations too far apart, you'll miss a lot of dialogue. And personally, making a journey back to camp just to talk to your other team mates is pretty unrealistic. What are they doing at camp while you're away anyway? It's like they don't have a life and plans of their own.

er, while the camp was one set map probably for resource reasons, i think you're meant to assume it's just the camp for that night and they're traveling with you. why on earth would they just have one base camp in one set place and then travel all over the country, rather than camping as they travel?

as for missing out, i dunno what to tell you, if you never check in with them but complain about not actually accessing the content you ignored in the first place, that's kind of on you. 

David Gaider wrote...

tiktac wrote...
although i'll never understand people who complain about how origins' content was gated and "omg you're CUTTING US OFF FROM CONTENT i actually have to TALK TO THESE PEOPLE to get to access it" and then subsequently ask for realism. even less so people who make a fuss over how "you can exhaust all those options in ten minutes if you use some gifts"

like alrighty then you deliberately exploited a game mechanic to blast through content you could have just as easily spaced out by not asking it all at once and then complained about it, cool 

It boils down to the amount of hand-holding we engage in. It's always going to be a discussion on our part as to where on the spectrum we should fall--should we allow the player to gorge themselves if they wish, at the expense of pacing and lack of content further down the road, or forcibly gate the content to get better pacing, at the expense of agency? For DAI, we're pulling back the throttle a little to let the player have more content up-front (should they so desire) while still gating things further down the line as it makes sense. Meaning it won't be possible to "blast through" a follower's entire relationship when you first meet them, but neither are you restricted to one short conversation. Ideally this should feel more natural to the player (particularly since there's far more reason to return to the base than just to talk to followers), but that's a balance we'll need to work out over the next year.

sounds like a good balance to me. personally i'm a fan of player agency, i purposely space out my conversations with my companions because i roleplay it. tonight, my warden will ask zevran about why he's an assassin, and then next time maybe he'll ask him about something else. just because the other options are there doesn't mean i need to go through them all just to get the content. 

but roleplaying is the biggest part of the game for me, story and characters and creating my own character to develop. whereas gameplay and combat are really important for others so i guess they might be less likely to roleplay their character's relationships to other characters and so on and would prefer more linear character dialogue stuff. if that makes any sense.

[Sandy]

David Gaider wrote...

tiktac wrote...
although i'll never understand people who complain about how origins' content was gated and "omg you're CUTTING US OFF FROM CONTENT i actually have to TALK TO THESE PEOPLE to get to access it" and then subsequently ask for realism. even less so people who make a fuss over how "you can exhaust all those options in ten minutes if you use some gifts"

like alrighty then you deliberately exploited a game mechanic to blast through content you could have just as easily spaced out by not asking it all at once and then complained about it, cool 

It boils down to the amount of hand-holding we engage in. It's always going to be a discussion on our part as to where on the spectrum we should fall--should we allow the player to gorge themselves if they wish, at the expense of pacing and lack of content further down the road, or forcibly gate the content to get better pacing, at the expense of agency? For DAI, we're pulling back the throttle a little to let the player have more content up-front (should they so desire) while still gating things further down the line as it makes sense. Meaning it won't be possible to "blast through" a follower's entire relationship when you first meet them, but neither are you restricted to one short conversation. Ideally this should feel more natural to the player (particularly since there's far more reason to return to the base than just to talk to followers), but that's a balance we'll need to work out over the next year.

Thank you very much for this information Mr. Gaider. It seems you are aiming for a good middle ground in DA:I. I always felt that the DA:O system was a good one in general to get to know your companions, but it DID sometimes feel like you could "blast through" a follower's entire relationship when you first meet them if you picked the "right" (read: the ones that gave the most approval points) conversation options and/or gave them a few gifts early on. On the flip side, DA2 felt a bit to "forced/railroaded" being divided into different acts and being a bit "go to X and talk about Y, then you can never talk about Y ever again".

I think the way you are doing it in DA:I will be a happy middle that will suit me fine.

Modifié par sandellniklas, 26 décembre 2013 - 02:33 .

[AlanC9]

azarhal wrote...
And there was way more than companion quest in DA2. The companion quests were when they gave you something to do (Aveline and the ambush, Aveline and Donnic, Anders and meeting Karl, Anders and his bomb ingredients, etc where companion quests). The rest were all companion dialogs triggered by various things: friendship/rival threshold, advancing in the main story, Fade trip etc. They used quest markers to indicate that the companion had something new to say so you didn't have to talk to everyone after every damn quests like in DAO. It would have been a nightmare in DAII with them all living in different part of town...

One of the problems with DA2 and ME3 is using "mission" and "quest" in places where the term isn't really very appropriate. I think it would have been conceptually cleaner to have, say, a "conversation" tab in DA2 and an "item" tab for both games. ME3 board veterans may remember an idiotic tendentious graphic counting up the number of .missions of various types in an attempt to scientifically prove how much worse ME3's missions were than ME2's.

Edit: the graphic did what it was created to do. I shouldn't be mean to it.

Modifié par AlanC9, 26 décembre 2013 - 02:49 .

[David Gaider]

sandellniklas wrote...
I think the way you are doing it in DA:I will be a happy middle that will suit me fine.

It always seems that way when we're working on it. We are. after all, always addressing problems as we see them--and, at the same time, inevitably creating a few new ones. The new approach won't make everyone happy, but it feels pretty good right now...and if, at the end of the day, the biggest complaint will be "I wanted more" that's not a terrible place to be.

[kheldorin]

tiktac wrote...

kheldorin wrote...

tiktac wrote...

that's good to hear. i was all for the personal plot stuff in da2, but at times it felt kind of disjointed because like you said, a) you're being "told" when it's okay to to talk to them and if it's not, you just get a default bark and rarely was it just a casual chat about, say, where they're from, but a big personal event. it felt like i was being told that i know these characters really well, even though i didn't always feel like i did. 

of course some of that can be attributed to da2's limited developmental time. but i am looking forward to being able to chat them up for fun again.

although i'll never understand people who complain about how origins' content was gated and "omg you're CUTTING US OFF FROM CONTENT i actually have to TALK TO THESE PEOPLE to get to access it" and then subsequently ask for realism. even less so people who make a fuss over how "you can exhaust all those options in ten minutes if you use some gifts"

like alrighty then you deliberately exploited a game mechanic to blast through content you could have just as easily spaced out by not asking it all at once and then complained about it, cool 

Because you don't know when that conversation opportunity would expire. If you go back to camp very rarely, ie space your conversations too far apart, you'll miss a lot of dialogue. And personally, making a journey back to camp just to talk to your other team mates is pretty unrealistic. What are they doing at camp while you're away anyway? It's like they don't have a life and plans of their own.

er, while the camp was one set map probably for resource reasons, i think you're meant to assume it's just the camp for that night and they're traveling with you. why on earth would they just have one base camp in one set place and then travel all over the country, rather than camping as they travel?

as for missing out, i dunno what to tell you, if you never check in with them but complain about not actually accessing the content you ignored in the first place, that's kind of on you. 

Because it doesn't make sense to do so. You're on an urgent mission. Why go back to camp when there's no need to so especially when I'm not entirely sure that they're actually new dialogue available. To know how to space out dialogue, you need to have pre-knowledge of how much dialogue there is in the first place and at which plot points the dialogue expire. So to ensure that you don't miss out on anything, you just burn through the dialogue.

If I'm in Orzimmar, why would they be slumming it out in the forest? They should be out there staying in taverns or exploring the sights similar to how in ME3, your teammates are out there in the citadel when you dock there. It's not like they have a ship they have to attend to or manage. There's nothing in the forest.

[Angrywolves]

David Gaider wrote...

sandellniklas wrote...
I think the way you are doing it in DA:I will be a happy middle that will suit me fine.

It always seems that way when we're working on it. We are. after all, always addressing problems as we see them--and, at the same time, inevitably creating a few new ones. The new approach won't make everyone happy, but it feels pretty good right now...and if, at the end of the day, the biggest complaint will be "I wanted more" that's not a terrible place to be.

True.

As Laidlaw said in an interview, solve a few mysteries and create some new ones.Rotfl.

You guys are doing a fine job.I must admit that.I feel excited about the game.
Impossible to have everything you might want. Sandel is right. A happy medium is a GOOD THING.

[werewoof]

kheldorin wrote...

tiktac wrote...

kheldorin wrote...

tiktac wrote...

that's good to hear. i was all for the personal plot stuff in da2, but at times it felt kind of disjointed because like you said, a) you're being "told" when it's okay to to talk to them and if it's not, you just get a default bark and rarely was it just a casual chat about, say, where they're from, but a big personal event. it felt like i was being told that i know these characters really well, even though i didn't always feel like i did. 

of course some of that can be attributed to da2's limited developmental time. but i am looking forward to being able to chat them up for fun again.

although i'll never understand people who complain about how origins' content was gated and "omg you're CUTTING US OFF FROM CONTENT i actually have to TALK TO THESE PEOPLE to get to access it" and then subsequently ask for realism. even less so people who make a fuss over how "you can exhaust all those options in ten minutes if you use some gifts"

like alrighty then you deliberately exploited a game mechanic to blast through content you could have just as easily spaced out by not asking it all at once and then complained about it, cool 

Because you don't know when that conversation opportunity would expire. If you go back to camp very rarely, ie space your conversations too far apart, you'll miss a lot of dialogue. And personally, making a journey back to camp just to talk to your other team mates is pretty unrealistic. What are they doing at camp while you're away anyway? It's like they don't have a life and plans of their own.

er, while the camp was one set map probably for resource reasons, i think you're meant to assume it's just the camp for that night and they're traveling with you. why on earth would they just have one base camp in one set place and then travel all over the country, rather than camping as they travel?

as for missing out, i dunno what to tell you, if you never check in with them but complain about not actually accessing the content you ignored in the first place, that's kind of on you. 

Because it doesn't make sense to do so. You're on an urgent mission. Why go back to camp when there's no need to so especially when I'm not entirely sure that they're actually new dialogue available. To know how to space out dialogue, you need to have pre-knowledge of how much dialogue there is in the first place and at which plot points the dialogue expire. So to ensure that you don't miss out on anything, you just burn through the dialogue.

If I'm in Orzimmar, why would they be slumming it out in the forest? They should be out there staying in taverns or exploring the sights similar to how in ME3, your teammates are out there in the citadel when you dock there. It's not like they have a ship they have to attend to or manage. There's nothing in the forest.

like i just said, i think you're supposed to assume that you're just camping out that night. they probably didn't have the resources to actually add more than one campsite. from what i gathered it was meant to be as if you had stopped for the night. you have to sleep at some point, no matter how urgent the mission is.

yeah, it would have made more sense if you had a literal different campsite depending on where you were in the world, but for whatever reason they weren't able to do that. 

i see what you mean about going through the dialogue too fast because you think it might go away, but i still found it better than da2's errand list thing. but hey, gaider just said we're getting something in between so it's probably pointless to argue about that.

[addiction21]

David Gaider wrote...

inevitably creating a few new ones.

BioWare the company that always creates problems. Or I am sure you or marketing could think up a better slogan.

I have been around here long enough that every new release comes with a whole new set of problems from us but I can take solace in sitting back and looking overall it all there is a clear attempt to try and do better.

I personally would like a mix of DAO and DA2 companions. That they have there base but there is something more that carries thruought the game.

[AlanC9]

tiktac wrote..
sounds like a good balance to me. personally i'm a fan of player agency, i purposely space out my conversations with my companions because i roleplay it. tonight, my warden will ask zevran about why he's an assassin, and then next time maybe he'll ask him about something else. just because the other options are there doesn't mean i need to go through them all just to get the content. 

Managing the spacing out of the content = roleplay? For me it's the exact opposite. I see a question I want my character to ask right away, but I don't ask it because I don't want to burn out the companion's dialogue tree. I had a very annoying experience with Morrigan running out early in DA:O, which has colored my perceptions somewhat.

Modifié par AlanC9, 26 décembre 2013 - 03:04 .

[werewoof]

AlanC9 wrote...

tiktac wrote..
sounds like a good balance to me. personally i'm a fan of player agency, i purposely space out my conversations with my companions because i roleplay it. tonight, my warden will ask zevran about why he's an assassin, and then next time maybe he'll ask him about something else. just because the other options are there doesn't mean i need to go through them all just to get the content. 

Managing the spacing out of the content = roleplay? For me it's the exact opposite. I see a question I want my character to ask right away, but I don't ask it because I don't want to burn out the companion's dialogue tree. I had a very annoying experience with Morrigan running out early in DA:O, which has colored my perceptions somewhat.

with me it's like, i see it and think, "that's something my character would ask" and go for it. and then refrain on others because i think no, they wouldn't interrogate this companion with so many questions all at once. they might think of it, but they wouldn't actually ask until they know the companion better because asking someone about every detail of their life when you barely know them is sort of weird. 

combine that with some options not being available until you have a certain approval rating and it feels (to me) like you are actually getting to know them over time, rather than just being told, "your character has gotten to know them over time but you didn't see it when we did the time skip, now go do a quest for them"

but i guess it depends on how you prefer to play the game and wether you see managing a lot of the game yourself as agency or as a chore. 

not that origins' mehtod can't be improved on or that da2's didn't have their good qualities, of course. origins gave you more freedom to interact with your companions at the expense of personal quests, and da2 gave us more personal quests at the expense of...making it feel a little bit like you're scheduling a dentist appointment when you want to talk to them. like i said, i think da:i seems to be going for a good medium.

[AlanC9]

tiktac wrote...

with me it's like, i see it and think, "that's something my character would ask" and go for it. and then refrain on others because i think no, they wouldn't interrogate this companion with so many questions all at once. they might think of it, but they wouldn't actually ask until they know the companion better because asking someone about every detail of their life when you barely know them is sort of weird.

And when I tried playing like that I burned out all of Morrigan's unlocked convos before getting halfway to the Landsmeet. Unfun. But better than missing on the other side and losing content altogether. I suppose some players could be lucky and adopt a playstyle that exacty matches the amount of content, but relying on luck isn't sound technique, for designers or players. 

but i guess it depends on how you prefer to play the game and wether you see managing a lot of the game yourself as agency or as a chore. 

If it's something that my character wouldn't be managing, managing it is a chore. 

[Maria Caliban]

David Gaider wrote...

There are also no quests provided to alert you that a companion has a major conversation waiting. While those were intended as a convenience feature, some people evidently interpreted that as them being told to go and talk to the companion--and thus they felt they could only talk to a companion when the companion wanted. Which is perception only, sure, but what else is agency but perception? So the conversations are there for the player to discover, if they wish, short of the companion seeking them out on their own.

Will there be any indicators? Like those symbols that float over companion heads in Jade Empire and TOR, or the 'Carth has something to tell you' dialogue you'd get in KotOR?

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 26 décembre 2013 - 07:05 .

[addiction21]

AlanC9 wrote...

Managing the spacing out of the content = roleplay?

No it doesn't but for me it can make a better trip thru the game. That as you progress and thru previous interactions things can open up or change later. Instead of almost everything (aside from set places and items) being open from the start there is a sort of balance.

[werewoof]

AlanC9 wrote...

tiktac wrote...

with me it's like, i see it and think, "that's something my character would ask" and go for it. and then refrain on others because i think no, they wouldn't interrogate this companion with so many questions all at once. they might think of it, but they wouldn't actually ask until they know the companion better because asking someone about every detail of their life when you barely know them is sort of weird.

And when I tried playing like that I burned out all of Morrigan's unlocked convos before getting halfway to the Landsmeet. Unfun. But better than missing on the other side and losing content altogether. I suppose some players could be lucky and adopt a playstyle that exacty matches the amount of content, but relying on luck isn't sound technique, for designers or players. 

but i guess it depends on how you prefer to play the game and wether you see managing a lot of the game yourself as agency or as a chore. 

If it's something that my character wouldn't be managing, managing it is a chore. 

to you it is. i saw it more as my character thinking about what to ask them first, deciding when to ask something and when not to. but i also tend to play more like i'm telling the character's story than like they are me or an avatar for me. but at the same time, my viewpoint is a bit skewed because i have social anxiety disorder, which makes me tend to rehearse things in my head and manage what i'm about to say before i talk to people irl. maybe that's why it doesn't feel weird to me.  

like i said, origins isn't without flaw, the content does thin out a bit towards the end, i'll agree with you there. so i hope inquisition improves on that. but at the same time i hope it doesn't go to the railroaded extreme of da2. makes it a little more linear so it's a tighter plot, but not so linear that it feels like an errand list.

Modifié par tiktac, 26 décembre 2013 - 05:46 .

[Dean_the_Young]

David Gaider wrote...

sandellniklas wrote...
I think the way you are doing it in DA:I will be a happy middle that will suit me fine.

It always seems that way when we're working on it. We are. after all, always addressing problems as we see them--and, at the same time, inevitably creating a few new ones. The new approach won't make everyone happy, but it feels pretty good right now...and if, at the end of the day, the biggest complaint will be "I wanted more" that's not a terrible place to be.

Question for you. You mentioned not having a mission-indicator of new dialogue, but might there be other indicators to help recognize if there's, say, new investigate dialogue? SWTOR had the lightbulb icon, but maybe it could be something like a change in character pose or animation?

[Amirit]

David Gaider wrote...

sandellniklas wrote...
I think the way you are doing it in DA:I will be a happy middle that will suit me fine.

It always seems that way when we're working on it. We are. after all, always addressing problems as we see them--and, at the same time, inevitably creating a few new ones. The new approach won't make everyone happy, but it feels pretty good right now...and if, at the end of the day, the biggest complaint will be "I wanted more" that's not a terrible place to be.

Thank you for the answer and all clarifications. So far DA:I system sounds just perfect!
Though I can guarantee you will get your "I want more"  complaine. But was there any BW game where fans did not ask for it?  

[Bleachrude]

I really hope there's some inidication that there is new dialogue UNLESS you go the ME3 route. ME3 after each mission encouraged you to go through the whole Normandy top to bottom since the characters moved around and had very nice character interaction and at the LEAST, they had the Zaeed/Kasumi style dialogue.

I know people hated this but I actually thought it was a very nice way to get more dialogue without getting the "Can it wait for a bit, I'm in the middle of calibrations" bit.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Bleachrude wrote...

I really hope there's some inidication that there is new dialogue UNLESS you go the ME3 route. ME3 after each mission encouraged you to go through the whole Normandy top to bottom since the characters moved around and had very nice character interaction and at the LEAST, they had the Zaeed/Kasumi style dialogue.

I know people hated this but I actually thought it was a very nice way to get more dialogue without getting the "Can it wait for a bit, I'm in the middle of calibrations" bit.

I preferred the ME3 style character interactions too. In ME2, characters would just stop saying new things unless they were romanced while they commented on missions in ME3

[Jonathan Seagull]

I loved the ME3 interactions, probably more than any other BioWare game so far. First off, it was a nice touch and felt more organic that they moved around the ship a little bit and interacted with each other. But it was also great that after every mission, each squadmate would have at least one or two lines of "followup" dialogue. I pretty much always run around the ship after every mission to hear what each one (or at least each one that I care about during that playthrough) has to say.

I also prefer that there's at least some gating when it comes to content (more than what Origins provided). I think the issue a lot of people have isn't a question of "Why shouldn't I be able to run through their content early if I choose?" but rather "What if I don't realize I'm going through all of it now?" The first time you play a game, at least, you probably don't know at any given point whether a character will have more things to talk about later. So, for example, I might talk to Leliana about everything relatively early, because I figure that we'll have other things to talk about later. If I know that we won't, I might space it out more evenly -- but I can't really know.

Modifié par Jonathan Seagull, 26 décembre 2013 - 07:43 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...

Insofar as which game's approach is better, that's debatable. As I mentioned, some of the differences are largely one of perception. A player that was used to DAO's approach might have missed being able to go to a follower in the camp and run through all their dialogues at once, feeling like they "got to know" a follower after an hour of talking to them in the investigate conversation.

To me, I think the PC gets to know the companions by adventuring with them, not by talking to them.  So, if we've already fought side-by-side for weeks (or years), it makes no sense to talk to these people like I don't know them.

Moreover, I can't imagine that these people do fight side-by-side for extended periods without talking to each other.  That these conversations occur off-screen (we don't see them) is not evidence that they don't happen.  So, again, it makes sense to be able to run through all of the conversations without having to wait for specific plot events.

That said, I tend not to run through them all at once, because that would just seem weird and out-of-character for my PC most of the time, so I tend to have a conversation about a single topic and then move on until the next opportunity to chat arises.  Even if the content is already available, I don't always consume it right away.

[Champion1]

So I know we aren't talking about romance here and I'm not trying to turn things that way, but talking about gated conversation topics and story-based topics reminded me of this interview: http://gamerant.com/...omance-details/

This interview makes it sound like some romances will be closed off or opened depending on your overall game choices--which is probably a whole other thread somewhere that I can't find--but what I'm hoping is that this means that we can finally talk to and get some reactions from our companions about our actions after-the-fact, which I've been looking for since DAO.  It never felt realistic to me that I might have just done something that someone really disagreed with, but I never heard about it unless they were present, thereby bypassing a Crisis Moment with zero harm done.  From the interview and what Mr. Gaider is saying, I'm hoping that the Inquisitor will get called out on his actions more often by companions besides the ones that were there at the time, since that opens up a lot of opportunities for interaction and fleshing out of companions.

Modifié par Champion1, 26 décembre 2013 - 11:06 .

[karushna5]

David Gaider wrote...

The total amount of content, as in the actual amount of writing that goes into an individual follower and the amount of interaction you have with them over the course of the game, is the same in DAO as in DA2 as it will be in DAI.

This is something I am curious about, the amount of companions actually varries from one game to the next, I mean DA:O had 7 and 1/2 companions if you didn't count shale, and Dog not being speaking. Awakening had 6, DAII had 6 1/2 not counting Sebastian, Inquisition has 9 confirmed

Is the writing split between the companions, do they always have the same amount as a companion? Mass effect 2 felt as if for each companion there was less simply due to the number, and there seemed to be a quest and little other interaction. I do know you guys use different teams, so that is just one example. 

[Leomerya12]

David Gaider wrote...

...
Ultimately, the content for followers is being re-shuffled once again--the default investigate dialogue is re-appearing, so there is conversation to be had with a follower even when they don't have a big cinematic scene awaiting, and that comes at the expense of the extra personal plots as was in DA2....

Personally, I'm fine with that. I found all the fighting during their personal quest a distraction from interacting with the characters. Thanks, David!

Modifié par Leomerya12, 27 décembre 2013 - 04:15 .

[Mark of the Dragon]

Really I'm happy with how it sounds like companions interaction is being handled in DAI?

I just hope we get at least one relatively fleshed out companion quest. I was not fond of character interaction in DA2 but I did like the more fleshed out companion quest. While I don't need three quest lines for each companion having one that's a bit more detailed then the companion quests in DAO would be nice.