Aller au contenu

Photo

Questions regarding continuity and world building


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
21 réponses à ce sujet

#1
azerSheppard

azerSheppard
  • Members
  • 1 279 messages
 Hello,

I have been contemplating a few -in my eyes- issues with the Mass Effect universe and time-line. It is stated in the game that the asari are the first to reach the citidel followed by the salarians. This occurs at around 500 b.c. in our timeline. 

How come during this entire time the two races have not developed any technological leaps; does Moore's law not hold in any which way? Why haven't they made any progress at all compared to the technology they had several thousand years ago? 

XO Pressley says his grandfather fought in the first contact war. How is the possible, considering Anderson was a full fledged N7 soldier. The age just doesn't add up.

And finally, humanity enters the fray and somehow, having just made some leaps in their technological advancement. How do they catch up to the council level of technological innovation all of a sudden? Do they just skip those 2000 odd years of technological evolution the salarians and asari made and suddenly "get on their level"?

what the hell is happening here. The writers clearly weren't paying attention to what was going on. Did the aliens make no advancement at all for nearly 3 millenia? Did they sit on their ass and ******?
I can understand that the asari, due to their longevity would be less inclined to make enourmous steps, but the salarians, the most shortlived species of all should have made technological advancements beyond our imagination by the time humanity joined the council.
:huh::unsure::whistle:

#2
LisuPL

LisuPL
  • Members
  • 1 019 messages
I pity the fool who's illogical aswell!

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9...910873_700b.jpg

Modifié par LisuPL, 23 décembre 2013 - 08:09 .


#3
Guest_StreetMagic_*

Guest_StreetMagic_*
  • Guests
A lot of technology revolves around Reaper design and mass effect principles. The only thing I can guess is that it's so convenient and efficient that no one sees a need to improve upon it. And it turns out to be as Sovereign says.. that civilization follows the exact course they intended. Not just with mass relays, but the entire infrastructure. And all humanity is did is discover Prothean technology (which in turn could be traced to Reaper designs) - then adopt the principles to catch up to a similar state as others.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 23 décembre 2013 - 08:17 .


#4
Grizzly46

Grizzly46
  • Members
  • 519 messages
No, you are right - the timeline does not add up at all. But you have other things that makes for a really strange universe:

The asari reached the Citadel about 500 bc, right? And up to 'now' they have another 1800 years to explore and colonize the galaxy, yet they only have colonies in about 1/5 of the universe, which is approximately the same as the humans - who have been around for (drumroll please) about 30 years! In these 30 years humans have colonized Demeter, Eden Prime, Terra Nova, Tiptree, Beckenstein, Mindoir, Feros and at least 20-30 more worlds or so.

And lets not forget all the space stations, satellites or the fact that there were five fleets as well around when Soveriegn attacked - and which bailed out the asari (you know, the people that had a headstart for about 1800 years) and the turians (which allegedly had the best military in the galaxy...

I can buy a superiority in skill. I can buy a superiority in technological superiority over other races. I can buy that humanity managed to spread to so many worlds.

But I can not, repeat not buy that they have done so in such short time.

#5
AlexMBrennan

AlexMBrennan
  • Members
  • 7 002 messages
Dunno, wasn't Earth rather overcrowded? That might have resulted in humans pursuing colonisation projects with much greater urgency than other species.

#6
JamesFaith

JamesFaith
  • Members
  • 2 301 messages

Grizzly46 wrote...

The asari reached the Citadel about 500 bc, right? And up to 'now' they have another 1800 years to explore and colonize the galaxy, yet they only have colonies in about 1/5 of the universe, which is approximately the same as the humans - who have been around for (drumroll please) about 30 years! In these 30 years humans have colonized Demeter, Eden Prime, Terra Nova, Tiptree, Beckenstein, Mindoir, Feros and at least 20-30 more worlds or so.


There is correlation between natality and speed of colonisation.

Asari have about five (?) children per life and they are living for thousand year.

Human in third world commonly have six or eight children during 30 years.

People are simply more suitable candidate for fast spreading through galaxy then asari.

#7
Grizzly46

Grizzly46
  • Members
  • 519 messages

JamesFaith wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...

The asari reached the Citadel about 500 bc, right? And up to 'now' they have another 1800 years to explore and colonize the galaxy, yet they only have colonies in about 1/5 of the universe, which is approximately the same as the humans - who have been around for (drumroll please) about 30 years! In these 30 years humans have colonized Demeter, Eden Prime, Terra Nova, Tiptree, Beckenstein, Mindoir, Feros and at least 20-30 more worlds or so.


There is correlation between natality and speed of colonisation.

Asari have about five (?) children per life and they are living for thousand year.

Human in third world commonly have six or eight children during 30 years.

People are simply more suitable candidate for fast spreading through galaxy then asari.


Ah, but it isn't third world countries that is colonizing the galaxy - it is first world (third world's most pressing matter is simply to make sure there is enough food to go around).

Even if humans are more suitable to colonize the galaxy, that doesn't matter - the difference in time is simply too great between the other races and humans.

#8
JamesFaith

JamesFaith
  • Members
  • 2 301 messages

Grizzly46 wrote...

Ah, but it isn't third world countries that is colonizing the galaxy - it is first world (third world's most pressing matter is simply to make sure there is enough food to go around).

Even if humans are more suitable to colonize the galaxy, that doesn't matter - the difference in time is simply too great between the other races and humans.


Wrong.

History already showed us that poorest people are most eager colonists, because in their minds colonies can be only better or same as their current lifes. So from long-term perspective it logical to assume that Alliance loaded ships with people from overpopulated third world, gave them basic gear and spread them through galax.

And that difference in time between asari and humanity really isnť too big given to biological specific of asari.

Colonisation itself has three main motivation - living space, resources and urge for domination.

1) Living space - asari with long lifespan and selfcontrolled pregnancy haven't problem with overpopulation.
2) Resources - directly tied to point one. Smaller population needs less resources then big one.
3) Urge for domination- asari never showed some imperial tendencies like turian or batarian.
 

There is simply no reason why  should them colonize galaxy with same speed as humanity, which have strong all three motivations.

#9
Grizzly46

Grizzly46
  • Members
  • 519 messages

JamesFaith wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...

Ah, but it isn't third world countries that is colonizing the galaxy - it is first world (third world's most pressing matter is simply to make sure there is enough food to go around).

Even if humans are more suitable to colonize the galaxy, that doesn't matter - the difference in time is simply too great between the other races and humans.


Wrong.

History already showed us that poorest people are most eager colonists, because in their minds colonies can be only better or same as their current lifes. So from long-term perspective it logical to assume that Alliance loaded ships with people from overpopulated third world, gave them basic gear and spread them through galax.

And that difference in time between asari and humanity really isnť too big given to biological specific of asari.

Colonisation itself has three main motivation - living space, resources and urge for domination.

1) Living space - asari with long lifespan and selfcontrolled pregnancy haven't problem with overpopulation.
2) Resources - directly tied to point one. Smaller population needs less resources then big one.
3) Urge for domination- asari never showed some imperial tendencies like turian or batarian.
 

There is simply no reason why  should them colonize galaxy with same speed as humanity, which have strong all three motivations.


What you WANT to do and CAN do are two completely different issues - space colonization isn't about hitchhiking on a boat across the sea, it is much more complex than that. If you don't have the resources, you will stay put.

And regarding this thing about differences between humans and asairi, well:

Humans live to at most 150 years, asari can reach nearly 1000 years which is about seven times as long. They have been an intergalactical spacefaring race for 1800 years, humans 30 - more than 60 times longer than humans. Logically, asari should have a space empire 60 times larger than the humans, but they don't.

Resources then? If that would be the issue, then the drell would have tried to escape Kahje long before they fell into chaos. Humans had (at the start of ME3) 11 billion people, asari around a trillion and the largest economy in the galaxy

And regarding this surge for domination thing, well, I'd say a race that possess the best technology and largest economy fits the profile for an empire pretty well... For example, the US says it has no interest in dominating the world, yet it does.

#10
AlexMBrennan

AlexMBrennan
  • Members
  • 7 002 messages

Humans live to at most 150 years, asari can reach nearly 1000 years which is about seven times as long. They have been an intergalactical spacefaring race for 1800 years, humans 30 - more than 60 times longer than humans. Logically, asari should have a space empire 60 times larger than the humans, but they don't.

Nope; the number of generations is a much more useful number - no matter how great colonies are the asari are not going to have the 300 kids each to achieve the 60-fold increase in population in a single generation.

#11
Coming0fShadows

Coming0fShadows
  • Members
  • 188 messages
So in a period of like 30 years humanity can rapidly colonize and claim atleast 1/5 of the galaxy, and be considered one of the most powerful races. This looks like it would take a little longer to expand across...

#12
Ravensword

Ravensword
  • Members
  • 6 185 messages

besterisgood wrote...

So in a period of like 30 years humanity can rapidly colonize and claim atleast 1/5 of the galaxy, and be considered one of the most powerful races. This looks like it would take a little longer to expand across...


Yup. Humanity in the ME series was very much a Sue race. Even the narrative pushed the whole "humans are special" trope fiercly w/ the whole "genetic diversity" thing and Reaper obsession w/ the human race.

#13
JMTolan

JMTolan
  • Members
  • 104 messages
Saying the Asari made no technological advancement since the discovery of the Citadel is just ignorant--there's nothing saying they didn't, and quite a lot saying they did. Ships got bigger, more efficient. Weapons got better. Technological conveniences got more advanced or widespread. Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Humanity's leap forward upon meeting the galaxy is also relatively obviously explained--they'd just made several technological leaps, but those leaps were relatively irrelevant when they did connect because the council races provided them with their current technology. They did, functionally, skip the development the Asari et all had to go through because they didn't need to discover it for themselves. Somebody else already had, and was willing to share. This is shown to be standard practice in the ME universe with the Raoli (Mentions of gifts of technology) and more extremely with the Krogan (their uplifting). In general, once you meet up with the Citadel Counsel and agree to work within their structure, they get your civilization up to speed on tech. It might take a couple of years for everything to standardize, but certainly not the hundreds or thousands it took to come up with the stuff in the first place.

The timeline of the First Contact war is a bit more fuzzy, but it's not out of the question. Pressly's grandfather might have been old going into it, with would leave plenty of time for Anderson to become a decorated veteran during the war assuming Pressley's parents had him relatively young. Anderson isn't exactly young, after all.

-Tolan

#14
sH0tgUn jUliA

sH0tgUn jUliA
  • Members
  • 16 818 messages
The answer is simple: Hoomuns R Speshul. We were supposed to progress real fast and impress the Reapers, so that we would be harvested into the big Reapership to process Dark Energy and save the galaxy from annihilation, because ONE vewwy speshul 2 kilometer long human reapership was going to process all the dark energy from the mass relays and biotics and reverse the damage that eezo was doing to the galaxy. That's why.

#15
Guest_alleyd_*

Guest_alleyd_*
  • Guests
 The key could be the Skyhook effect of Prothean technology and the nature of the relevant uplifting in the race.

The Protheans uplifted the Asari, the Salarians, Turians etc and left data troves of their technology. You could assume that this "skyhook" effect would cause a rapid increase in the tech capability of the "next generation" BUT the Protheans could not make the uplift happen too quickly for fear of attracting Reaper attention. The Prothean data archives on homeworlds were limited in the technological lessons and progresses they made.

Of course we saw that the Asari Deified the Beacon, but they also did something more. The subliminated the Prothean legacy for an Asari iconography and built an organised controlling religion, that kept this power in the hands of elites. Long lived beings that could create powerful dynastic legacies of control, very subtle manipulation of the social structure of the Asari

The Salarians also have a control mechanism imposed by their society, in their form of breeding and pedigree. What if that was a control system by a power elite? Like the Asari temples, the dalatrasses are more concerned with dynastic legacies, than social progression, like the Asari this is subtle social manipulation.

Then you have the Turians, militaristic dynastys that have rigid social structures. Again the majoirty of the population are controlled by tradition in this case. 

So there you have 3 powerful dynastic regimes, ruled by elites. The next thing is they become a Triumvirate of mutual interest and this also inhibits the progression of the Entity that the regimes created, the Council of Races. None of the 3 can rush ahead of the other, without upsetting the sytem and creating imbalance. The Key is retetntion of power and influence of a relative few elite dynasties, the multitudes below are not allowed to progress too much. All factors that inhibit growth

Further evidence that could support an acusation of dynastic engineering is the Triumvirate's attitudes to "client" races, Volus, Hanar, Elcor, Quarian and Krogan. None are allowed a seat at the table, and dissent or "imbalance" is dealt with ruthlessly, and there is no real philanthropic attitude at elite level. The Rachni extinction, The AI betrayal. Krogan Genophage, The plight of the Quarians, the degradation of the Volus, the failure to intervene in the ongoing Drell extinction event, failure to police against an organised and systematic slaver system (Batarians) that degrades their own peoples. Creation of a legal system that operates wetware assets with impuinity (Spectres). And the exodus of large swathes of beings beyond the reach of council power, that are never allowed to progress beyond "barbarism" and "bandit" empires.

That was the political structure at the Council, and there was another thing in place, the Relay Network was a skyhook system that uplifted all the races equally. There has been very little research into this system, possibly because there was no need? Also possibly because the Elite discouraged anything that is beyond their control.

But all changed with the arrival of humanity, and the nature of our "skyhooks" The human expansion is exceptionally explosive event and looks strange, but when you look at certain events, maybe there are clues to explain how we were "Skyhooked" and how aspects of our own civilization impacted on more rigid social systems.

Human Skyhook is the base on Mars, a lore entry mentions the Mars Prothean site and that we actually had Prothean Ships, also our system had another incongruity. The relay had been sabotaged and the Reapers never attacked this system. You could infer that the Protheans who retired to the Mars base were an enclave that retreated from the Reapers, tried to disconnect from the system and possibly start again, hiding on Mars, but they never woke up, or were killed off.

Humanity learned the Mass Effect and Prothean technology very quickly, around a year or so, strange? Not if you consider how Shepard's own initiation into the Protheans. The Cypher, Possibly some human researcher got hit with a cypher event, either from an Orb or a Beacon. One that gave details of how to reverse the sabotage of the Relay and all the rest, possibly a galactic map of the Prothean Empire, because if you look at human colonisation, a lot of the sites are close to, or on Prothean sites. 

AND most of the planets share another thing in common, they are "company" planets of the EAE empire. This is another key as to why humans exploded, unlike the others we are a capitalistic, entrepreneurial system, we will exploit and create colonial opportunities and economic revolutions very quickly, and we can "Bubble" our econmoies to suit new opportunites. It isn't technology, nor military might nor political influence that has fuelled our Bubble of economic migration, it has been through the economy.

 The Triumvirate of races are like the ancient Asian and African empires that were outflanked through the power of a capitalistic system. Humans are doing to the Council Elite, what the Europeans did to the great Asian Dynastic empires of the 18th and 19th centuries. The power to move people, the fuel that lights the darkness, the flame of change is humanity, and it is because we are greedy, opportunistic little capitalists on the make, and the guys who rode the hog's back of human expansion have became very, very rich in this moribund galaxy.

Modifié par alleyd, 27 décembre 2013 - 07:35 .


#16
Invisible Man

Invisible Man
  • Members
  • 1 075 messages
@alleyd
nicely put. I couldn't agree more. nor could I have said it better.

#17
Guest_alleyd_*

Guest_alleyd_*
  • Guests

Invisible Man wrote...

@alleyd
nicely put. I couldn't agree more. nor could I have said it better.


Thank you so much :)

#18
Grizzly46

Grizzly46
  • Members
  • 519 messages

JMTolan wrote...

Saying the Asari made no technological advancement since the discovery of the Citadel is just ignorant--there's nothing saying they didn't, and quite a lot saying they did. Ships got bigger, more efficient. Weapons got better. Technological conveniences got more advanced or widespread. Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Humanity's leap forward upon meeting the galaxy is also relatively obviously explained--they'd just made several technological leaps, but those leaps were relatively irrelevant when they did connect because the council races provided them with their current technology. They did, functionally, skip the development the Asari et all had to go through because they didn't need to discover it for themselves. Somebody else already had, and was willing to share. This is shown to be standard practice in the ME universe with the Raoli (Mentions of gifts of technology) and more extremely with the Krogan (their uplifting). In general, once you meet up with the Citadel Counsel and agree to work within their structure, they get your civilization up to speed on tech. It might take a couple of years for everything to standardize, but certainly not the hundreds or thousands it took to come up with the stuff in the first place.

The timeline of the First Contact war is a bit more fuzzy, but it's not out of the question. Pressly's grandfather might have been old going into it, with would leave plenty of time for Anderson to become a decorated veteran during the war assuming Pressley's parents had him relatively young. Anderson isn't exactly young, after all.

-Tolan


I'm not questioning wether or not asari and/or humans have made technological advances, I'm questioning the fact that it only took humanity 30 years to reach this level of advancement. Things take TIME to build, including spaceships, and that is no matter how advanced your technology is.

#19
StarcloudSWG

StarcloudSWG
  • Members
  • 2 660 messages
Annnd... what examples of tech from 5000 years before current mass effect time have you seen in the game?

I certainly haven't seen any apart from the giant guns on Tuchanka in that one mission, and those were likely built during the Krogan/Rachni war and subsequent rebellion. Which would put them at about 1400 years old.

Further, the Mars Archive was an entire installation. Read the codex; it's not just data they found there, but actual derelict Prothean ships that they could study and reverse engineer.

If you're talking about the rifles the Asari are holding in the one Citadel Archives entry where they find the Citadel, those are clearly M-7 Avengers. Which.. are *human-built* rifles. The entire scene was clearly built quickly from existing models because they didn't have the time to create a custom asari ancient rifle model.

Modifié par StarcloudSWG, 01 janvier 2014 - 02:41 .


#20
Arcian

Arcian
  • Members
  • 2 470 messages

besterisgood wrote...

So in a period of like 30 years humanity can rapidly colonize and claim atleast 1/5 of the galaxy, and be considered one of the most powerful races. This looks like it would take a little longer to expand across...

Draw a parallell to Earth. Let's say Earth is the galaxy, each country is an intragalatic territory with thousands of planets and that each city is an inhabited planet. Out of the entirety of Earth's surface, only 29% is land. Now, only 1.5% of the entire landmass is occupied by humans.

A large country like, say, Canada or Russia aren't filled to the brim with people occupying every square inch of the country's area. The majority of it is wilderness occupied by miles and miles of nothing.

The same goes for space. You see, just like the governments of Canada and Russia, the Systems Alliance claims a humongous amount of intergalactic territory, but only a minute fraction of that territory is actively inhabited. The rest is just empty space or unclaimed star systems waiting to be explored, discovered and settled.

In the case of the Alliance, they are known in-universe for biting more than they can chew - they have more territory than they could possibly defend if attacked, which makes their outlying colonies extremely vulnerable to raiders and pirates. I like to imagine it as if a country like Sweden claimed all of Europe and tried to guard its borders with a measly population of 9 million.

#21
Coming0fShadows

Coming0fShadows
  • Members
  • 188 messages
I dont think claiming a bunch of land on earth is anywhere on the same scale as claiming like 800 million stars as belonging to you. I know people have claimed land without knowing whats in it all.. and I get what youre saying but still, the galaxy is pretty big. The codex in Mass Effect 1 says that not even 1% of the galaxy is explored. How exactly do you even chart something on that scale with nice lines? Plus who would even care to recognize that kind of claim? Perhaps no one can get into those systems because there is not enough mass relays. I guess the bottom line is having a full galaxy map looks cooler than a quarter of a galaxy map.

#22
Arcian

Arcian
  • Members
  • 2 470 messages

besterisgood wrote...

I guess the bottom line is having a full galaxy map looks cooler than a quarter of a galaxy map.

Yeah. Back in the 2006 build of Mass Effect 1, the galaxy map looked a lot more realistic.