191 réponses à ce sujet

[Zatche]

Freshisstay. The context didn't make it sound better on first read. It sounded more like "just because i disapprove doesn't make me antigay." Sorry I misunderstood.

I still wouldn't hold your breath though.

Modifié par Zatche, 24 décembre 2013 - 07:00 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Jesus Christ, Quote Me fully, dont make me look like I have a problem with lgbt content. I FULLY SUPPORT LGBT CONTENT.  The only thing I have a problem with, is the player character not being able to have a problem and that's PURELY for gameplay purposes. Same way I feel about Leliana, I PERSONALLY, never made the choice to kill her BUT those that did should be a little upset. Exact same thing.

What you're refusing to get is that it wouldn't make any sense for your character to be homophobic in a world where no cultures are homophobic.  There is in-game precedent for prejudice between humans and elves, etc., but there is NO basis for homophobia within the world. 

Don't try to tell me what makes sense for my character, and by the way, my character wouldn't be homophobic. 
He would be rude if a same sex person hit on him, he would be rude if ANYONE he didnt like hit on him. Nonchalance won't do, for me, which is something I'll deal with because it's not the end of the world.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 24 décembre 2013 - 07:10 .

[Silfren]

FreshIstay wrote...

Jesus Christ, Quote Me fully, dont make me look like I have a problem with lgbt content. I FULLY SUPPORT LGBT CONTENT.  The only thing I have a problem with, is the player character not being able to have a problem and that's PURELY for gameplay purposes. Same way I feel about Leliana, I PERSONALLY, never made the choice to kill her BUT those that did should be a little upset. Exact same thing.

What you're refusing to get is that it wouldn't make any sense for your character to be homophobic in a world where no cultures are homophobic.  There is in-game precedent for prejudice between humans and elves, etc., but there is NO basis for homophobia within the world. 

Don't try to tell me what makes sense for my character, and by the way, my character wouldn't be homophobic. 
He would be rude if a same sex person hit on him, he would be rude if ANYONE he didnt like hit on him. Nonchalance won't do, for me, which is something I'll deal with because it's not the end of the world.

Casting my vote with the guy above you.  You keep trying to insist that your character can be against homosexuality without being homophobic.  That's not at all how it works.  Homophobia as a form of bigotry does not exist within Thedas, so individuals are not going to be against it the way you keep insisting, because whether you accept it or not, "I disapprove of this lifestyle" IS a form of homophobia.  People who grow up within cultures that don't care much about it aren't going to form that kind of opinion...they're going to not care.

[GreyLycanTrope]

MevenSelas wrote...

It's really odd that this thread has become singularly focused on sexual orientation.

What about race and religion? They are the more important social cleavages in Thedas, in my opinion.

That's a lot easier to do since we're dealing with fictional nations and religions. Sexual orientation's much more of a sensative issue since both it and discrimination towards it are very real things. Bioware would be rather foolish to allow that into the game especially this far down the line of orientation not being an issue in Thedas. The only group who I'd say could within context still have an issue with that would be the Qunari as they reject to concept of personal identity and relationships in general.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 24 décembre 2013 - 07:27 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Silfren wrote..

Casting my vote with the guy above you.  You keep trying to insist that your character can be against homosexuality without being homophobic.  That's not at all how it works.  Homophobia as a form of bigotry does not exist within Thedas, so individuals are not going to be against it the way you keep insisting, because whether you accept it or not, "I disapprove of this lifestyle" IS a form of homophobia.  People who grow up within cultures that don't care much about it aren't going to form that kind of opinion...they're going to not care.

You keep trying to turn my words into something else. And you can be against Homosexuality without being homophobic. I dont have to love everything, I'll sit down with Kenney Chesney and drink a few beers and in the same breath I'd tell him I dont like  Country Music. Do I have a phobia?  I think a Player Character should be able to be rude when ANYONE hits on him/her. < That's what I'm discussing. Wouldn't you support being able to tell a straight NPC that he/she is barking up the wrong tree?
 

[Silfren]

FreshIstay wrote...

Silfren wrote..

Casting my vote with the guy above you.  You keep trying to insist that your character can be against homosexuality without being homophobic.  That's not at all how it works.  Homophobia as a form of bigotry does not exist within Thedas, so individuals are not going to be against it the way you keep insisting, because whether you accept it or not, "I disapprove of this lifestyle" IS a form of homophobia.  People who grow up within cultures that don't care much about it aren't going to form that kind of opinion...they're going to not care.

You keep trying to turn my words into something else. And you can be against Homosexuality without being homophobic. I dont have to love everything, I'll sit down with Kenney Chesney and drink a few beers and in the same breath I'd tell him I dont like  Country Music. Do I have a phobia?  I think a Player Character should be able to be rude when ANYONE hits on him/her. < That's what I'm discussing. Wouldn't you support being able to tell a straight NPC that he/she is barking up the wrong tree?

A lot of people want to believe they can be against homosexuality without being homophobic, but they can't, sorry.  It makes no more sense than trying to claim, "I'm not racist, but..."  Your analogy falls flat because there's no comparison between disliking a genre of music and having an opinion about what other people do with their sex lives.  You're trying to conflate not being gay with being against homosexuality.

Being rude to someone who hits on you can be done without making it being rude to them on the basis of their being the same gender as you.  You're not saying you want the option to be generally rude, you're saying you want the option to be specifically homophobically rude, a stance that won't ever make sense for a character who is raised within a society that is NOT homophobic. 

Of course I'd support being able to tell an NPC that they're barking up the wrong tree, but there's no reason why such an option HAS to be a rude brush-off.  But again, you're assuming that the only way to do that with bi or gay characters is by being specifically rude in a homophobic way.  I DON'T support a homophobic response at all and I never will--and rudeness does not require bigotry.

Modifié par Silfren, 24 décembre 2013 - 07:56 .

[IC-07]

FreshIstay wrote...

Silfren wrote..

Casting my vote with the guy above you.  You keep trying to insist that your character can be against homosexuality without being homophobic.  That's not at all how it works.  Homophobia as a form of bigotry does not exist within Thedas, so individuals are not going to be against it the way you keep insisting, because whether you accept it or not, "I disapprove of this lifestyle" IS a form of homophobia.  People who grow up within cultures that don't care much about it aren't going to form that kind of opinion...they're going to not care.

You keep trying to turn my words into something else. And you can be against Homosexuality without being homophobic. I dont have to love everything, I'll sit down with Kenney Chesney and drink a few beers and in the same breath I'd tell him I dont like  Country Music. Do I have a phobia?  I think a Player Character should be able to be rude when ANYONE hits on him/her. < That's what I'm discussing. Wouldn't you support being able to tell a straight NPC that he/she is barking up the wrong tree?
 

Yep, this is correct.

[Iron Fist]

Can I play a straight character who has no strong opinion, positive or negative, on homosexuality? Like in real life?

I would rather express my venomous hatred for the filthy shemlen. The whole lot of 'em. Their ears are flat. And they smell of ******-flavored ale.

Modifié par MevenSelas, 24 décembre 2013 - 07:59 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

"Don't tell me my character has to hate someone while I tell your character they aren't allowed to hate someone and I rally for the removal of any option for any character to react in any way but my own because THIS IS MY STORY AND YOU DONT MATTER!!!!"

BSN logic is in full bloom today. Wear your surgical masks.

[daveliam]

FreshIstay wrote...

Again, for context, I dont want player character's hurling F bombs or committing hate crimes and demeaning character's because of their sexuality, I only want the PC to be able to express that this way of life is not acceptable to him/her In a way that's more beleivable.

How is this the same thing as not liking country music?

Also, telling someone that their "way of life is not acceptable" is "demeaning" them "because of their sexuality".

I see what you are saying in general, but the sticking point for people is the fact that you want your character to say things that many people consider to be homophobic (such as the quote above) specifically to s/s characters that hit on you.  It's not the same thing to assertively reject an o/s character that hits on you and to assertively reject a s/s character that hits on you by stating that their lifestyle is unacceptable to you.  Unless you are rejecting the o/s character in a way that is equally insulting to them, although I'm not sure what the parallel would be in that case.  Silfen's point is that your character would be out of place by being anti-gay in a society that isn't.  It's not that you couldn't role-play a character like that if given the option (You are free to play your game however you like), but it's unlikely to be placed in to allow you this option because it's out of place in Thedas.

[Zkyire]

daveliam wrote...

Dragons?  Amazing!
Werewolves?  Awesome!
Mythical Races?  Perfect!
Magic? Great!
Resurrection?  Believable!
Potions that immediately heal all wounds?  Fantastic!
Weapons and armor that never damage or break?  Fabulous!

A world where the majority of the populace isn't overtly prejudice?  WHAT!?!  That's not realistic at all!  How can I enjoy a game that has such an unrealistic aspect?  I'll never be able to relate to that!

The list you gave are creatures and materials that exist, not themes and dialogue.

Huge difference.

Modifié par Zkyire, 24 décembre 2013 - 08:02 .

[chrstnmonks]

It's been awhile since I have played the games, but what about classism? I would imagine more nobles being snotty toward someone they considered lower class than themselves.

[daveliam]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

BSN logic is in full bloom today. Wear your surgical masks.

It's similar to the BSN logic that argues that because specific types of prejudice are present in our society, Bioware should place those same prejudices in Thedas because that is "more realistic" or "relatable".  Despite the fact that it hasn't existed in Thedas so it would actually be LESS realistic to add it in in the third game. 

[Iron Fist]

chrstnmonks wrote...

It's been awhile since I have played the games, but what about classism? I would imagine more nobles being snotty toward someone they considered lower class than themselves.

Yes, the class struggle should be addressed. Surely, the peasants are planning some kind of rebellion. I want to be on the front lines of it.

My Inquisitor is a communist, ahead of his time I suppose.

[daveliam]

Zkyire wrote...

The list you gave are creatures and materials that exist, not themes and dialogue.

Huge difference.

They exist because the authors chose to add those fictional elements into the story.  The same way that they chose not to add in certain types of prejudice into their fictional world. 

[Silfren]

daveliam wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Again, for context, I dont want player character's hurling F bombs or committing hate crimes and demeaning character's because of their sexuality, I only want the PC to be able to express that this way of life is not acceptable to him/her In a way that's more beleivable.

How is this the same thing as not liking country music?

Also, telling someone that their "way of life is not acceptable" is "demeaning" them "because of their sexuality".

I see what you are saying in general, but the sticking point for people is the fact that you want your character to say things that many people consider to be homophobic (such as the quote above) specifically to s/s characters that hit on you.  It's not the same thing to assertively reject an o/s character that hits on you and to assertively reject a s/s character that hits on you by stating that their lifestyle is unacceptable to you.  Unless you are rejecting the o/s character in a way that is equally insulting to them, although I'm not sure what the parallel would be in that case.  Silfen's point is that your character would be out of place by being anti-gay in a society that isn't.  It's not that you couldn't role-play a character like that if given the option (You are free to play your game however you like), but it's unlikely to be placed in to allow you this option because it's out of place in Thedas.

This. 

Saying to someone of a different gender "Sorry I'm not interested" or "Go the f*ck away I could never be interested in you" is NOT equivalent to saying to someone of the same gender "Sorry I find your orientation unacceptable," or "Ew go the f*ck away I hate when people of the same gender hit on me!"  I don't object to having the option to rudely reject someone who expresses interest, but I do object to the idea that the only way to be rude to the one is by making a homophobic insult.  If you want to make the rejection on the basis of their gender, it would be better to leave it simply as "Sorry, I'm just not interested in x."  Putting an ideological spin on it just wouldn't fit the setting, unless you want to explain to me how a character could turn out to be homophobic in a culture wherein homophobia does not exist.

[Zkyire]

While there is more of a hand-holding and sugar and rainbows approach to race, sex and sexuality than I would expect in a setting such as Dragon Age, the series is still admittedly not devoid of them.

Any more than what it has and it'll be heading more into grimdark, hopeless, nothing-really-matters-because-most-people-are-bastards-anyway territory.

[Ridwan]

KainD wrote...

M25105 wrote...

This is exactly what I'm talking about. We don't need more chicks with dicks, where there is no difference at all. Men and women are different, it's not rocket science and that difference goes beyond genitals.

The difference is miniscule and practically non-existant if both are brought up in the same enviroment with the same atitutude. 

Wow.... you're not serious are you?

[Cainhurst Crow]

daveliam wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

BSN logic is in full bloom today. Wear your surgical masks.

It's similar to the BSN logic that argues that because specific types of prejudice are present in our society, Bioware should place those same prejudices in Thedas because that is "more realistic" or "relatable".  Despite the fact that it hasn't existed in Thedas so it would actually be LESS realistic to add it in in the third game. 

To be honest a person saying they want their character to be able to express a certain view or action because it is what their character would do is perfectly alright. Going in and telling them you aren't allowed to expess that view because my character wouldn't do that, despite the person talking about their own character and not the other persons, is the crazier part. More so because it's basically imposing one playstyle and mindset to everyone else and forcing them to conform to it, rather then presenting more varied options and letting you choose what to express, that is nuttier.

Also, "types of prejudice are present in our society" hasn't stopped players from demanding their character be anti-religious or atheist in a middle ages analouge where religious thought is highly dominant and crying foul when it doesn't happen all the time. I don't see why they should get to express disaproval at orginized religions just for being orginized religions and yet others can't express disaproval at aspects of people for similar reasons.

[werewoof]

Silfren wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Silfren wrote..

Casting my vote with the guy above you.  You keep trying to insist that your character can be against homosexuality without being homophobic.  That's not at all how it works.  Homophobia as a form of bigotry does not exist within Thedas, so individuals are not going to be against it the way you keep insisting, because whether you accept it or not, "I disapprove of this lifestyle" IS a form of homophobia.  People who grow up within cultures that don't care much about it aren't going to form that kind of opinion...they're going to not care.

You keep trying to turn my words into something else. And you can be against Homosexuality without being homophobic. I dont have to love everything, I'll sit down with Kenney Chesney and drink a few beers and in the same breath I'd tell him I dont like  Country Music. Do I have a phobia?  I think a Player Character should be able to be rude when ANYONE hits on him/her. < That's what I'm discussing. Wouldn't you support being able to tell a straight NPC that he/she is barking up the wrong tree?

A lot of people want to believe they can be against homosexuality without being homophobic, but they can't, sorry.  It makes no more sense than trying to claim, "I'm not racist, but..."  Your analogy falls flat because there's no comparison between disliking a genre of music and having an opinion about what other people do with their sex lives.  You're trying to conflate not being gay with being against homosexuality.

Being rude to someone who hits on you can be done without making it being rude to them on the basis of their being the same gender as you.  You're not saying you want the option to be generally rude, you're saying you want the option to be specifically homophobically rude, a stance that won't ever make sense for a character who is raised within a society that is NOT homophobic. 

Of course I'd support being able to tell an NPC that they're barking up the wrong tree, but there's no reason why such an option HAS to be a rude brush-off.  But again, you're assuming that the only way to do that with bi or gay characters is by being specifically rude in a homophobic way.  I DON'T support a homophobic response at all and I never will--and rudeness does not require bigotry.

bless you silfren

its almost as if FreshIstay doesn't actually care about dragon age canon or their characters' narrative at all and is just looking for an excuse to be homophobic because they got all ickied out when anders hit on them, oh no

telling an npc you aren't into them? fine

telling an npc you aren't into them because of their gender? whatever

rudely telling an npc you aren't into them because they're being a creep or your character is just harsh? fine

specifically wanting to be disgusted by an npc's advances because of their gender despite no canon societal context to imply anything more than being slightly offput? transparent plea for an excuse to bash queer people in game 

Modifié par tiktac, 24 décembre 2013 - 08:13 .

[Zatche]

FreshIstay wrote...

You keep trying to turn my words into something else. And you can be against Homosexuality without being homophobic. I dont have to love everything, I'll sit down with Kenney Chesney and drink a few beers and in the same breath I'd tell him I dont like  Country Music. Do I have a phobia?  I think a Player Character should be able to be rude when ANYONE hits on him/her. < That's what I'm discussing. Wouldn't you support being able to tell a straight NPC that he/she is barking up the wrong tree?

There is an infinite number of ways to roleplay in your mind. But with "word budgets" and other limited resources,  there are only so many ways that can be implemented. 

So, why is the option to say "I disapprove of homosexuality" so important? Given how recently the lgbt community has started winning rights, I'd imagine that option being available would hit a raw nerve for those who have experienced anti-gay prejudice in real life. It would be a personal blow for them against a small gain for those who just want the option to "roleplay" that way.

And as others have said, saying "I don't like listening to country music" isn't comparable to "I disapprove of homosexuality." The former is personal preference.  The latter is may not be fear, but it is certainly prejudiced. 

[Zkyire]

Silfren wrote...

What you're refusing to get is that it wouldn't make any sense for your character to be homophobic in a world where no cultures are homophobic.  There is in-game precedent for prejudice between humans and elves, etc., but there is NO basis for homophobia within the world. 

The closest that could come to to it qould be Qunari mating practices. Whereby individual Qunari are paired up for purely heterosexual sex whether they're interested or not.

But that's not really "Ew, gays" but more "We need more Qunari. This gets us more Qunari. We'll do this. Anything else is a waste".

So I could see a Qunari squadmate confused as to why your PC would be interested in another same-sex NPC, but beyond that *shrug*.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Silfren wrote...

What you're refusing to get is that it wouldn't make any sense for your character to be homophobic in a world where no cultures are homophobic.  There is in-game precedent for prejudice between humans and elves, etc., but there is NO basis for homophobia within the world. 

I think I remember when you steal from Bann Darby's silversmith, if you try to insinuate he's gay he looks wrongfooted for a second, the guard laughs derisively, and the silversmith tells you to screw off. That's about as homophobic as it gets though.

[werewoof]

Zatche wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

You keep trying to turn my words into something else. And you can be against Homosexuality without being homophobic. I dont have to love everything, I'll sit down with Kenney Chesney and drink a few beers and in the same breath I'd tell him I dont like  Country Music. Do I have a phobia?  I think a Player Character should be able to be rude when ANYONE hits on him/her. < That's what I'm discussing. Wouldn't you support being able to tell a straight NPC that he/she is barking up the wrong tree?

There is an infinite number of ways to roleplay in your mind. But with "word budgets" and other limited resources,  there are only so many ways that can be implemented. 

So, why is the option to say "I disapprove of homosexuality" so important? Given how recently the lgbt community has started winning rights, I'd imagine that option being available would hit a raw nerve for those who have experienced anti-gay prejudice in real life. It would be a personal blow for them against a small gain for those who just want the option to "roleplay" that way.

And as others have said, saying "I don't like listening to country music" isn't comparable to "I disapprove of homosexuality." The former is personal preference.  The latter is may not be fear, but it is certainly prejudiced. 

not to mention you usually don't have your life put in danger because of country music. whereas queer people still face a lot of violence and long-standing systematic oppression blah blah blah

seems like kind of a jackass thing to ask for, "screw giving actual representation and support to groups that barely recieve any of either from mainstream media, i wanna ~roleplay~ a total jerk, which i am definitely not in real life mind you"

Modifié par tiktac, 24 décembre 2013 - 08:17 .