56 réponses à ce sujet

[Warlokki]

Schneidend wrote...

Warlokki wrote...

So, where's the recoil going? On that
small weapon, i can't belive ME fields could absorb it (and even then,
what would happen to the weapon or environment. Energy doesn't just
vanish... any "Scifi" that breaks that rule is no Scifi at all)

You already answered your own question. Mass effect fields absorb the
recoil. That you can't imagine it does not make it less true.

First off, it's unbeliveable that the weapon could have strong enough ME fields that could absorb the recoil. And even then, what happens to the field generators? Do they heat up? Likely they'd heat up VERY MUCH, too hot so that the weapon couldn't be held. It's normal that a lot of stuff is left out  or left unexplained in imaginary worlds but considering how ME tries to be consistent, i'd like to have a real explanation. Sure, ME is not hard scifi but still...

I did not answer my question really, didn't get the final answer.

[WrexShepard]

I wonder if there will be a counterpart "Abel" weapon that has a less destructive theme.

[Schneidend]

Warlokki wrote...

First off, it's unbeliveable that the weapon could have strong enough ME fields that could absorb the recoil. And even then, what happens to the field generators? Do they heat up? Likely they'd heat up VERY MUCH, too hot so that the weapon couldn't be held. It's normal that a lot of stuff is left out  or left unexplained in imaginary worlds but considering how ME tries to be consistent, i'd like to have a real explanation. Sure, ME is not hard scifi but still...

I did not answer my question really, didn't get the final answer.

The weapon is huge. Most of its bulk is probably dampeners, cooling mechanisms, and internal kinetic barrier projectors. According to the codex, size is only a limiting factor for absorbing the recoil of extremely powerful rail guns in the Mass Effect universe, and that even small arms could theoretically propel slugs at unfathomable velocities. My guess is that the Cain is about 80% recoil reduction and only 20% gun.

Modifié par Schneidend, 20 janvier 2010 - 11:39 .

[akintu]

Warlokki wrote...
First off, it's unbeliveable that the weapon could have strong enough ME fields that could absorb the recoil. And even then, what happens to the field generators? Do they heat up? Likely they'd heat up VERY MUCH, too hot so that the weapon couldn't be held. It's normal that a lot of stuff is left out  or left unexplained in imaginary worlds but considering how ME tries to be consistent, i'd like to have a real explanation. Sure, ME is not hard scifi but still...

I did not answer my question really, didn't get the final answer.

Mass effect fields do not absorb recoil.  They either increase mass or reduce mass.  This is according to the lore, anyway.

25g @ 5km/s produces recoil, sure.  If the mass effect field reduces the mass to .00025kg (250mg) @ 5km/s, then the recoil is reduced to about twice that of a 5.56mm.

[Warlokki]

And the energy used for this is released as heat, no? How much heat would that produce? Somehow i have a feeling it's rather a lot. Of course it goes to a heat sink (wrong term really isn't it? and do HWs even have heat sinks?) but still...

Very well.

I still don't like the weapon. Called nuke gun for some idiotic reason, it has nothing to do with nuclear energy, makes a nuke-like blast... sigh. I'm sticking to other weapons. Unless there's environmental damage in ME2

[Schneidend]

Warlokki wrote...

And the energy used for this is released as heat, no? How much heat would that produce? Somehow i have a feeling it's rather a lot. Of course it goes to a heat sink (wrong term really isn't it? and do HWs even have heat sinks?) but still...
Very well.
I still don't like the weapon. Called nuke gun for some idiotic reason, it has nothing to do with nuclear energy, makes a nuke-like blast... sigh. I'm sticking to other weapons. Unless there's environmental damage in ME2

Again, you answered your own question. It is colloquially called a "nuke gun" because it makes a big, iconic explosion. Similiarly, the incendiary rocket launchers in Borderlands are often called "nukes" by the fans because they cause big, black, columns of smoke and fire with their explosions.

[akintu]

Warlokki wrote...

And the energy used for this is released as heat, no? How much heat would that produce? Somehow i have a feeling it's rather a lot. Of course it goes to a heat sink (wrong term really isn't it? and do HWs even have heat sinks?) but still...
Very well.
I still don't like the weapon. Called nuke gun for some idiotic reason, it has nothing to do with nuclear energy, makes a nuke-like blast... sigh. I'm sticking to other weapons. Unless there's environmental damage in ME2

I've written quite a bit on cooling/heatsinks in other threads, and here is my basic theory on heat dissipation.

I think the weapons are using liquid helium as a coolant.  Helium3 is used as fuel for fusion in the ME universe, so it is quite plentiful, and they have apparently solved storage problems.  Coincidentally, liquid helium is the best known conductor of heat.  So we're inserting new canisters of liquid helium into our weapons when we slot a new "heatsink" in.  It may be that the heatsink itself is disposable and combined with the coolant in one package, or it may be that only the coolant is inserted, and they just call them heatsinks (I think they are technically called thermal clips in game, so either way is valid).

Anyway, the helium bathes the heatsink, soaking up all the heat produced, evaporating as you fire.  This is why our shots are limited.  Not because the guns never cool down, but because there is only enough helium coolant for 40 shots before you need to refill it.  Fun fact:  in a specific state of helium, heat moves as a wave through it.

Not a stretch to say that if the M-92 requires such cooling, it is probably included in the ammo it uses.

Modifié par alex_ladik, 21 janvier 2010 - 12:07 .

[Warlokki]

I was just complaining about the weapon. Calling it nuke gun (stupid name), not being nuclear weapon and making a mushroom cloud. Don't like any of those (well that is has nothing to do with nuclear energy is good but combine with the others...)



Seriously, after FO3's lackluster Fat Man (because it wasn't strong enough ), i very much have begun disliking nuclear weapons in games. If they'd just be portayed realistically...

[bzsound178]

Oh, look stronger. I like it-

[Darth Sithari]

Only one big problem with it: who the HELL did the proofreading for that description? Grammar errors, typos, incorrect word placement, DAMN!

[Murmillos]

I was thinking Robo-cop 2.. since there are already a lot of Robo-cop references within this series..

[Mal_Luck]

Quoting myself from the other thread.

Mal_Luck wrote...



The nuke sticker probably isn't a warning perse, more of a joke from whomever builds the Cain because of the explosions similarity to a nuke when it explodes.

I have no problem with this weapon and anticipate using it.

Although I would have called it the Little Boy as a nod to Fallout's Fat Man.

If I remember correctly, mushroom clouds aren't limited to nuclear bombs... so this weapon may not be nuclear but it can atleast portray a mushroom cloud semi-correctly...

[Matterialize]

5km/s? Doesn't the gun lazily lob the projectile over those husks in the E3 trailer?



Meh, cryo-blaster looks cooler. doho.

[Chimpeau]

Warlokki wrote...

I was just complaining about the weapon. Calling it nuke gun (stupid name), not being nuclear weapon and making a mushroom cloud. Don't like any of those (well that is has nothing to do with nuclear energy is good but combine with the others...)

Seriously, after FO3's lackluster Fat Man (because it wasn't strong enough ), i very much have begun disliking nuclear weapons in games. If they'd just be portayed realistically...

>Handheld nuclear weapons
>Realism
>.<

[lv12medic]

Matterialize wrote...

5km/s? Doesn't the gun lazily lob the projectile over those husks in the E3 trailer?

Meh, cryo-blaster looks cooler. doho.

If it went 5 km/s in the game, you'd never even see the projectile which means no cool glowy flying bullet of death graphics .

Anyways, the only thing cooler is if you can have a mass relay for a gun that accidentally intercepts traveling spaceships and launches those at the baddies.  Collateral damage could be an issue though... :innocent:

[Velcro5000]

Mass Effect Universe wrote...

high-explosive matrix generates an archetypal mushroom cloud on impact.

LOL

The mushroom cloud that appears when a nuclear bomb detonates is a result of the explosion being very big. It has nothing at all to do with the explosion being nuclear in nature.

Gotta love sci-fi

[Murmillos]

Velcro5000 wrote...

Mass Effect Universe wrote...

high-explosive matrix generates an archetypal mushroom cloud on impact.

LOL

The mushroom cloud that appears when a nuclear bomb detonates is a result of the explosion being very big. It has nothing at all to do with the explosion being nuclear in nature.

Gotta love sci-fi

Its the truth..  The reason - or how - mushroom clouds occur is due to heat  - a hell lot of heat - and low pressure.  It just happens current nuclear weapons provides that amount of heat and an massive amount of low pressure - other non nuke ordance can create the same effect - just not as "pretty" as a nuke can.

Mushroom clouds form as a result of the sudden formation of a large mass of hot, low-density gases near the ground creating instability beteween the two different air densities. The  hot low-mass of gas rises rapidly, resulting in turbulent vortices curling downward around its edges and drawing up a column of additional smoke and debris in the center to form its "stem". The mass of gas eventually reaches an altitude where it is no longer of lower density than the surrounding air and disperses, creating the mushroom top.

Gota love real science...


Edit: TSAR Nuke.. Biggest ever set off.

Modifié par Murmillos, 21 janvier 2010 - 01:19 .

[Litos456]

Lol that weapon is so fallout 3

[Schneidend]

Velcro5000 wrote...

Mass Effect Universe wrote...

high-explosive matrix generates an archetypal mushroom cloud on impact.

LOL

The mushroom cloud that appears when a nuclear bomb detonates is a result of the explosion being very big. It has nothing at all to do with the explosion being nuclear in nature.

Gotta love sci-fi

Yeah, no crap, "high-explosive" means it causes a big, powerful explosion.

[Velcro5000]

Schneidend wrote...

Velcro5000 wrote...

Mass Effect Universe wrote...

high-explosive matrix generates an archetypal mushroom cloud on impact.

LOL

The mushroom cloud that appears when a nuclear bomb detonates is a result of the explosion being very big. It has nothing at all to do with the explosion being nuclear in nature.

Gotta love sci-fi

Yeah, no crap, "high-explosive" means it causes a big, powerful explosion.

Yeah, but the explosions I've seen on screenshots so far isn't nearly large enough to form an actual mushroom cloud.

In physics the term "mushroom cloud" refers to a very specific phnomenon like the one Murmillos described:

Murmillos wrote...

-other non nuke ordance can create the same effect - just not as "pretty" as a nuke can.

Mushroom clouds form as a result of the sudden formation of a large mass of hot, low-density gases near the ground creating instability beteween the two different air densities. The  hot low-mass of gas rises rapidly, resulting in turbulent vortices curling downward around its edges and drawing up a column of additional smoke and debris in the center to form its "stem". The mass of gas eventually reaches an altitude where it is no longer of lower density than the surrounding air and disperses, creating the mushroom top.

Now THAT is a "true" mushroom cloud. Although I suppose a smaller explosion could form "mushroom like" features

[Teivel]

I'm not sure why this weapon looks like it's trying to do two things at once.



Accelerating the projectile to 5KM/S and using only a 25 gram projectile is more indicative of a big kinetic kill weapon, a large version of a conventional mass effect based weapon.



To be honest i was expecting this to be more low tech than anything else. Get a big, heavy projectile packed with high explosives. Reduce the mass if neccessary so you can actually hurl it. You don't need kinetic energy because you're doing damage using using the chemical energy released when it hits home.



If i was the devs i'd quickly retcon this thing to be basically a glorified SMAW packing a large quantity of highly energetic explosive into a large, slow moving projectile with a relatively simple launch system.

[WrexShepard]

You guys are acting like explosions must be huge to produce a mushroom cloud:



http://www.blackanth...ives21053.shtml



Mushroom clouds can form even with smaller explosions. I've even seen mushroom clouds from a fire ******.



Secondly, Mass Effect tech can certainly absorb recoil. If Mass Effect fields can generate force, they can generate a force that pushes in the opposite direction of the recoil thus negating or at least reducing it.



Care to try to refute me? The idea that Mass Effect fields cannot exert force and are limited only to augmentation/reduction of mass is ludicrous. If this was true, how do barriers and shields work?



How do biotics work? It's very clear that Mass Effect can in fact be capable of dampening recoil. In fact, I have a suspicion that's how the Recoil Damper/Kinetic Coil mods from ME1 worked.



The Nuke Gun is just a nickname. Mushroom clouds are iconically associated with Nuclear weapons. Since this weapon produces such clouds in its explosions, that's what it's been nicknamed.



Lastly, I'd like to ask you guys who doubt that this weapon would be capable of absorbing the recoil and heat generated by the weapon where your Bioware tags are- because unless you're devs, you really have no authority to speak on what new technologies being introduced in this game can or cannot do.

[akintu]

 

Element zero can increase or decrease the mass of volume of space-time when subjected to an electrical current. With a positive current, mass is increased. With a negative current, mass is decreased. The stronger the current, the greater the magnitude of the dark energy mass effect.In space, low-mass fields allow FTL travel and inexpensive surface-to-orbit transit. High-mass fields create artificial gravity and push space debris away from vessels. In manufacturing low-mass fields permit the creation of evenly-blended alloys, while high mass compaction creates dense, sturdy construction materials.The military makes extensive use of mobility enhancing technologies, with mass effect utilizing fighting vehicles standard front-line issue in most military forces. Mass effect fields are also essential in the creation of kinetic barriers or shields to protect against enemy fire.

Biotics is the ability of rare individuals to manipulate dark energy and create Mass effect fields through the use of electrical impulses from the brain. Intense training and surgically-implanted amplifiers are necessary for a biotic to produce mass effect fields powerful enough for practical use. The relative strength of biotic abilities varies greatly among species and with each individual.There are three branches of biotics. TELEKINESIS uses mass-lowering fields to levitate or impel objects. Mass-raising KINETIC FIELDS are used to block or pin objects. DISTORTION uses rapidly shifting mass fields to shred objects.Most organic species are capable of developing biotic abilities, though there are risks involved. Biotics are the result of in-utero exposure to Element zero. This usually causes fatal cancers in the victim, but in rare cases it coalesces into nodules within the fetus's developing nervous system.

Those are the codex entries.  http://masseffect.wi...odex/Technology

Modifié par alex_ladik, 21 janvier 2010 - 02:02 .

[WrexShepard]

alex_ladik wrote...

 

Element zero can increase or decrease the mass of volume of space-time when subjected to an electrical current. With a positive current, mass is increased. With a negative current, mass is decreased. The stronger the current, the greater the magnitude of the dark energy mass effect.In space, low-mass fields allow FTL travel and inexpensive surface-to-orbit transit. High-mass fields create artificial gravity and push space debris away from vessels. In manufacturing low-mass fields permit the creation of evenly-blended alloys, while high mass compaction creates dense, sturdy construction materials.The military makes extensive use of mobility enhancing technologies, with mass effect utilizing fighting vehicles standard front-line issue in most military forces. Mass effect fields are also essential in the creation of kinetic barriers or shields to protect against enemy fire.

Biotics is the ability of rare individuals to manipulate dark energy and create Mass effect fields through the use of electrical impulses from the brain. Intense training and surgically-implanted amplifiers are necessary for a biotic to produce mass effect fields powerful enough for practical use. The relative strength of biotic abilities varies greatly among species and with each individual.There are three branches of biotics. TELEKINESIS uses mass-lowering fields to levitate or impel objects. Mass-raising KINETIC FIELDS are used to block or pin objects. DISTORTION uses rapidly shifting mass fields to shred objects.Most organic species are capable of developing biotic abilities, though there are risks involved. Biotics are the result of in-utero exposure to Element zero. This usually causes fatal cancers in the victim, but in rare cases it coalesces into nodules within the fetus's developing nervous system.

Those are the codex entries.  http://masseffect.wi...odex/Technology

Oh, thanks for providing the texts which prove my points.  it says right here that telekinesis levitates or impels objects. If the telekinesis ability were only capable of lowering the mass and ONLY that, you wouldn't be able to move anything. The fact is that biotics and by extension mass effect fields are entirely capable of exerting force on objects.

Hence, if one were to give a Mass Effect driven "push" to a recoiling weapon, it would counteract the recoil.

[T1l]

I’m not a physicist, but if a projectile had zero mass then it wouldn’t have any recoil at all, would it? The force required to propel an object with zero mass would be miniscule (and I’m pretty sure that’s how Bioware have justified FTL travel, zero mass gets around the whole power to weight problem).

Friction and heat are still an issue, though.

EDIT: Wait; the projectile moves air in the chamber, creating recoil. Disregard. I'm an idiot.

Modifié par T1l, 21 janvier 2010 - 02:33 .