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Is the continuation of smart darkspawn something people want?


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#26
LinksOcarina

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

As someone said, I want intelligent antagonists, not intelligent darkspawn.

The Darkspawn are like zombies, or predatory animals. Like a virus. They're doing what their nature rules for them to do.


I don't disagree they are doing what their nature rules them to do.

That said, why can't they be intelligent? Showing that emerging reasoning power makes then no more or less a race of their own, as the Architect tries to promote. Of course intentions matter in this case too. I think its an interesting dynamic, maybe some of these darkspawn want to be peaceful, to help people, but can't be because of their affliction.  There is a fair amount of drama in that that can be mined for future storylines. Especially with their relationship with the Gray Wardens.

#27
Cutlass Jack

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renjility wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The Messenger was awesome and should come back again. I love how he became Batman at the end of Awakening.


A Batman who makes the people he tries to help sick?


The weed of crime bears bitter fruit.

#28
Red Panda

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Cutlass Jack wrote...

renjility wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

The Messenger was awesome and should come back again. I love how he became Batman at the end of Awakening.


A Batman who makes the people he tries to help sick?


The weed of crime bears bitter fruit.


A true dark knight.

#29
Icy Magebane

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I don't really want to see more intelligent darkspawn, but I guess I wouldn't hate it.  Probably not, anyway...

#30
Medhia Nox

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I'm curious - does "intelligent" make them less killable?

#31
In Exile

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Ziegrif wrote...

Well first thing that comes to mind for an easy way to hand waive the disease would be an even BIGGER grey warden blood coktail. Also why not just have some awakened join the grey wardens? It'd be a purpose for some who decide to strive for a nobler existence. They might also be a more effective weapon against the darkspawn than Grey Wardens.


Darkspawn are monstrous rape abominations. If an Awakened decides that the extiction of its entire kind is not an OK thing, it's going to need to rape and mutate some women. That's... really bad. About 100 on the "absolutely evil" scale. Even if you can handwave away the fact that darkspawn are poison to living beings through magic, the rape abomination stuff doesn't go away. 

#32
Fast Jimmy

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In Exile wrote...

Ziegrif wrote...

Well first thing that comes to mind for an easy way to hand waive the disease would be an even BIGGER grey warden blood coktail. Also why not just have some awakened join the grey wardens? It'd be a purpose for some who decide to strive for a nobler existence. They might also be a more effective weapon against the darkspawn than Grey Wardens.


Darkspawn are monstrous rape abominations. If an Awakened decides that the extiction of its entire kind is not an OK thing, it's going to need to rape and mutate some women. That's... really bad. About 100 on the "absolutely evil" scale. Even if you can handwave away the fact that darkspawn are poison to living beings through magic, the rape abomination stuff doesn't go away. 


Darkspawn are immortal, though. There's nothing to indicate that it would ever need to reproduce if it was peaceful. 

This is is kind of like blaming humans when a chimp bites a kid's face off. Before being Awakened, they are little more than magically guided animals. 

#33
Fast Jimmy

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Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm curious - does "intelligent" make them less killable?


I was hesitant to try and put down The Messenger, simply because he was trying to do right. I had no qualms about putting down the Mother, however. 

So... not any more than killing other intelligent people in DA games. But being intelligent offers the chance to at least try and be good, instead of a mindless attacking creature. So I'd say "yes" with the caveat that we're probably killed more sentient beings (including Carta, bandits, slavers, blood Mages, Templars and generic guards) than we have mindless Darkspawn. 

#34
Hanako Ikezawa

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Ziegrif wrote...

Well first thing that comes to mind for an easy way to hand waive the disease would be an even BIGGER grey warden blood coktail. Also why not just have some awakened join the grey wardens? It'd be a purpose for some who decide to strive for a nobler existence. They might also be a more effective weapon against the darkspawn than Grey Wardens.


Darkspawn are monstrous rape abominations. If an Awakened decides that the extiction of its entire kind is not an OK thing, it's going to need to rape and mutate some women. That's... really bad. About 100 on the "absolutely evil" scale. Even if you can handwave away the fact that darkspawn are poison to living beings through magic, the rape abomination stuff doesn't go away. 


Darkspawn are immortal, though. There's nothing to indicate that it would ever need to reproduce if it was peaceful. 

This is is kind of like blaming humans when a chimp bites a kid's face off. Before being Awakened, they are little more than magically guided animals. 

That's what I personally interpreted it as. The only reason the Darkspawn kidnapped and possibly raped women in order for them to turn into Broodmothers was more to replenish their numbers lost to the Dwarves, Wardens or Blights rather than as a natural means. I mean, Corypheus is one of the first darkspawn and yet he is still alive and kicking after centuries.

#35
Toasted Llama

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

So I'd say "yes" with the caveat that we're probably killed more sentient beings (including Carta, bandits, slavers, blood Mages, Templars and generic guards) than we have mindless Darkspawn. 


Hah! I think my "People killed" count was alot higher than, if not a close second to "Darkspawn killed" by the end of DA:O  x'D

#36
Vortex13

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Ziegrif wrote...

Well first thing that comes to mind for an easy way to hand waive the disease would be an even BIGGER grey warden blood coktail. Also why not just have some awakened join the grey wardens? It'd be a purpose for some who decide to strive for a nobler existence. They might also be a more effective weapon against the darkspawn than Grey Wardens.


Darkspawn are monstrous rape abominations. If an Awakened decides that the extiction of its entire kind is not an OK thing, it's going to need to rape and mutate some women. That's... really bad. About 100 on the "absolutely evil" scale. Even if you can handwave away the fact that darkspawn are poison to living beings through magic, the rape abomination stuff doesn't go away. 


Darkspawn are immortal, though. There's nothing to indicate that it would ever need to reproduce if it was peaceful. 

This is is kind of like blaming humans when a chimp bites a kid's face off. Before being Awakened, they are little more than magically guided animals. 


Agreed. 

Also a character like the Messenger, doesn't seem to hold the survival of his species in high regards, considering that he activly helps the player fight off the Darkspawn attacking Amaranthie, and; should the player decide to kill him afterwards; makes no attempt to flee or defend himself.  If the Messenger, or another character like him, were to become a companion (with the magical 'cure' mentioned above) I highly doubt they would be interested in propogating the species.

#37
Gaav

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I want more interaction with the main antagonists during the course if the game.
I want to be able to see and learn a bit of what he's thinking and plotting and what my actions are doing to his plans.

#38
MKDAWUSS

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For now, the darkspawn should exit stage left for a while. They can come back hundreds of years later for the 6th Blight.

#39
In Exile

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Fast Jimmy wrote...
Darkspawn are immortal, though. There's nothing to indicate that it would ever need to reproduce if it was peaceful.  


Darkspawn are ageless. That's not the same as immortal. Let's suppose that Awakend darskpawn are identical to humans morally. In fact, let's assume all Awakend darkspawn are saints: they will never kill, main or even hurt another darkspawn. The darkspawn will still be extinct within a few hundred years just in virtue of accidents. 

Basic math indicates that they would need to reproduce to continue existing as a race, if we assume that they will form a single uniform society and never take the life of another darkspawn ever

This is is kind of like blaming humans when a chimp bites a kid's face off. Before being Awakened, they are little more than magically guided animals.  


Rape is how they reproduce. A chimp doesn't need to bite a kid's face off to make more kids. 

Vortex13 wrote...
Also a character like the Messenger, doesn't seem to hold the survival of his species in high regards, considering that he activly helps the player fight off the Darkspawn attacking Amaranthie, and; should the player decide to kill him afterwards; makes no attempt to flee or defend himself.  If the Messenger, or another character like him, were to become a companion (with the magical 'cure' mentioned above) I highly doubt they would be interested in propogating the species.


So now the Awakened darkspawn are dedicated to the genocide of their own race, are moral paragons that would allow their entire race to go extinct instead of raping women, and are magically incapable of propagating the taint. 

We've turned the darkspawn into ageless angels that happen to look like Ghouls from Fallout. 

Modifié par In Exile, 27 décembre 2013 - 09:53 .


#40
Heimdall

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renjility wrote...

I'm not sure, to be honest. It could be interesting if they are actually going somewhere with the intelligent darkspawn thing, but I'm not sure anymore whether the writers know where they are going with a lot of plot threads. I think it would be most interesting to discover more about the ancient magisters/Corypheus. Perhaps now that he's been freed, Cory will start digging for his old colleagues?

I'm of the opinion that the Architect likely is one of those colleagues (With memory loss).

So yes, I would like to see more of the intelligent Darkspawn.

#41
Hanako Ikezawa

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In Exile wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Darkspawn are immortal, though. There's nothing to indicate that it would ever need to reproduce if it was peaceful.  


Darkspawn are ageless. That's not the same as immortal.

Ageless is an adjective describing a person or thing whose age cannot be defined, is non-existent, or appears not to change. It can also describe something that has always existed without a precise beginning or an end. Agelessness can be used as a synonym for immortality; more specifically it refers to eternal youth.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 27 décembre 2013 - 10:17 .


#42
In Exile

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LDS Darth Revan wrote...
Ageless is an adjective describing a person or thing whose age cannot be defined, is non-existent, or appears not to change. It can also describe something that has always existed without a precise beginning or an end. Agelessness can be used as a synonym for immortality; more specifically it refers to eternal youth.


The bolded portion is not the same as immortality, and the sense I was using ageless in. Darkspawn do not die of old age, but they clearly die. 

#43
Zerker

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

As someone said, I want intelligent antagonists, not intelligent darkspawn.

The Darkspawn are like zombies, or predatory animals. Like a virus. They're doing what their nature rules for them to do.

Humans are predatory animals as well, it can be suggested that violence, and  even "using weapons" is hardcoded in our dna, being the sole "Killer Ape" species in the planet.

Sentience however, tends to render things complex, that can have the effect of setting the pack mechanisms mostly by mind alone with little influnce from the actual instinctive desires, apparent example being modern humanity. I don't understand why that can't happen to darkspawn, provided that they indeed possess a level of intelligence that can override instinct when needed.

#44
Angrywolves

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fine but a darkspawn can never be a party member.

#45
Killdren88

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I don't mind them. But lets keep the concept of coexistence away from the Darkspawn. The Geth and Quarians were enough. Can't work for a race that needs to rape women of all races for reproduction.

#46
Vortex13

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Killdren88 wrote...

I don't mind them. But lets keep the concept of coexistence away from the Darkspawn. The Geth and Quarians were enough. Can't work for a race that needs to rape women of all races for reproduction.



Well the whole coexistence thing wouldn't even need to be dealt with anyway. This isn't Mass Effect 3 here, where every single plot point had to be wrapped up in a single title; which I will say is a factor in how certain aspects of the end game turned out. We don't need to set up the Anti-Darkspawn Discrimination League, and firmly establish pro Awakened relations among non-Darkspawn and see all of these plot points out within the timeframe of DA:I.

If the actions of the Inquisition are being spurned by a world threating demon invasion; the kind of threat where everyone will die if it is not dealt with; then I see no reason why the narrative needs to explain how the Awakened allies will integrate with society hundreds of years from the time the story takes place, or even that they need to integrate with society. If we are looking at a do or die scenario, I don't think that people would look a gift horse in the mouth too closely if we had an Awakened like the Messenger offering aid; the common militia of Amaranthine didn't seem too offended at accepting a Darkspawn's help.

Maybe long term co-existence with the 'good' Awakened is impossible, but I don't see why that would need to be dealt with in the terms of one game's timeframe. The werewolves players could side with in DA:O didn't co-exist peacefully with the people of Ferelden after the Blight either, but that didn't stop the other armies, or the player from working with them for the benefit of all.

#47
Hanako Ikezawa

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In Exile wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
Ageless is an adjective describing a person or thing whose age cannot be defined, is non-existent, or appears not to change. It can also describe something that has always existed without a precise beginning or an end. Agelessness can be used as a synonym for immortality; more specifically it refers to eternal youth.


The bolded portion is not the same as immortality, and the sense I was using ageless in. Darkspawn do not die of old age, but they clearly die. 

Exactly. They don't die of old age, thus have no need to reproduce to keep their numbers up. The only reason they need Broodmothers is to replace the Darkspawn who are killed in combat. If the Awakened Ones lead the Darkspawn to no longer mindlessly slaughter people, then that eliminates the need for them to create Broodmothers and thus no longer need to kidnap women.

#48
In Exile

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Vortex13 wrote...
If the actions of the Inquisition are being spurned by a world threating demon invasion; the kind of threat where everyone will die if it is not dealt with; then I see no reason why the narrative needs to explain how the Awakened allies will integrate with society hundreds of years from the time the story takes place, or even that they need to integrate with society. If we are looking at a do or die scenario, I don't think that people would look a gift horse in the mouth too closely if we had an Awakened like the Messenger offering aid; the common militia of Amaranthine didn't seem too offended at accepting a Darkspawn's help.


The game needs to explain why we allow the Awakened rape factories to continue unabated, why the rape factories are somehow a morally better choice than just killing the lot of them and dealing with the demon invasion alone, and why every group in Thedas is suddenly OK with the idea of things that literally poison all of existence massing an army and crossing into their lands - the thing which is a blight by definition. Darkspawn are the closest thing to absolute evil in the setting, and are, in theological terms, basically devils. 

Let's work with the rape abominations requires a lot of justifications, since at minimum you have to sell everyone on the fact that they're less bad than the demons. Who don't poison the land. And who, in the endgame, would be banished forever beyond the Veil. 

DA:A has the people that opened with "kill it immediately on sight" not react to the "let it help option", but that looks like a complete failure of the game as opposed to a plausible reaction, given how strongly they then advocate for killing it if you tie it up. 

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
 Exactly. They don't die of old age, thus have no need to reproduce to keep their numbers up. The only reason they need Broodmothers is to replace the Darkspawn who are killed in combat. If the Awakened Ones lead the Darkspawn to no longer mindlessly slaughter people, then that eliminates the need for them to create Broodmothers and thus no longer need to kidnap women.


Like I said: that's just ignorant. We started DA:A with a darkspawn civil war. If the Awakend all decide to hold hands and sing kumbaya, and there is never under any circumstances any fracturing or crime in their society, then they would still need a peace treaty with the dwarves and suffer 0 losses from raids or any kind of foreign attack. 

And again, that's clearly ignoring the fact that darkspawn can die if they trip on a rock and break their neck. Or fall of a bronto. Or get caught in a cave-in. 

But yes, if somehow the darkspawn become more morally pure than every other single race in Thedas, more socially and cullturally unified than every race in Thedas, then yes, they won't need to reproduce. 

All it takes for that is for the Awakened darkspawn to create a literal utopia. That's about as likely as the Maker (a) existing and (B) coming down from the sky and curing the lot of them from the taint. 

Modifié par In Exile, 28 décembre 2013 - 03:00 .


#49
Hanako Ikezawa

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In Exile wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
 Exactly. They don't die of old age, thus have no need to reproduce to keep their numbers up. The only reason they need Broodmothers is to replace the Darkspawn who are killed in combat. If the Awakened Ones lead the Darkspawn to no longer mindlessly slaughter people, then that eliminates the need for them to create Broodmothers and thus no longer need to kidnap women.


Like I said: that's just ignorant. We started DA:A with a darkspawn civil war. If the Awakend all decide to hold hands and sing kumbaya, and there is never under any circumstances any fracturing or crime in their society, then they would still need a peace treaty with the dwarves and suffer 0 losses from raids or any kind of foreign attack. 

And again, that's clearly ignoring the fact that darkspawn can die if they trip on a rock and break their neck. Or fall of a bronto. Or get caught in a cave-in. 

But yes, if somehow the darkspawn become more morally pure than every other single race in Thedas, more socially and cullturally unified than every race in Thedas, then yes, they won't need to reproduce. 

All it takes for that is for the Awakened darkspawn to create a literal utopia. That's about as likely as the Maker (a) existing and (B) coming down from the sky and curing the lot of them from the taint. 

A small civil war. There was no way that more than tiny fraction of Darkspawn were with either the Arcitect or Mother. And I'm not advocating a complete utopia, I'm advocating more the Darkspawn become more isolationist as they seem to have been doing if you spare the Architect. The Darkspawn need nothing from us, so there's no need to be in contact with races that hate them. Just look at the Geth until the Reapers had the Heretics reintroduce themselves onto the galactic stage. Would there still be a few bands that occasionally kidnap and possibly rape women? Probably. And yet even when mindless monsters, I bet annually more women were taken and turned into sex slaves by non-Darkspawn than taken and turned into Broodmothers by Darkspawn.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 28 décembre 2013 - 03:37 .


#50
Angrywolves

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I bet annually more women were taken and turned into sex slaves by slavers than taken and turned into Broodmothers by Darkspawn.

not sure if that's true.