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[Hellion Rex]

Veruin wrote...

They're getting crazier and crazier.

Sooner or later, we'll just slit our wrists and dance naked under the moonlight.

[EmperorSahlertz]

There is a reason why "chaotic evil" is often called "chaotic stupid"...

And the demon doesn't care about you, and it is probably jsut happy that it find a mage gullible enough to even try such a "bond"...

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There is a reason why "chaotic evil" is often called "chaotic stupid"...

And the demon doesn't care about you, and it is probably jsut happy that it find a mage gullible enough to even try such a "bond"...

Is Kain trying to justify bargaining with demons?

[KainD]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There is a reason why "chaotic evil" is often called "chaotic stupid"...

And the demon doesn't care about you, and it is probably jsut happy that it find a mage gullible enough to even try such a "bond"...

Yeah, the reason is, this alligment is the least understood, which is why it is considered stupid, mindless and random. Not without a reason of course, after all there are no laws or morals a chaotic evil follows, other than their own. 

You won't get to bond with a demon that doesn't want one, if that is your focus, they won't go there. 

[KainD]

eluvianix wrote...

Is Kain trying to justify bargaining with demons?

No. There is no need for any kind of justification and it is not a bargain. 

I mean, bargains can work as well, but only outside of possesion. 

Modifié par KainD, 01 janvier 2014 - 10:58 .

[Hellion Rex]

KainD wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There is a reason why "chaotic evil" is often called "chaotic stupid"...

And the demon doesn't care about you, and it is probably jsut happy that it find a mage gullible enough to even try such a "bond"...

Yeah, the reason is, this alligment is the least understood, which is why it is considered stupid, mindless and random. Not without a reason of course, after all there are no laws or morals a chaotic evil follows, other than their own. 

You won't get to bond with a demon that doesn't want one, if that is your focus, they won't go there.

Why would a bond with a demon necessarily be symbiotic and not just terribly one sided on their end?

[Veruin]

Bargain - an agreement between two or more parties as to what each party will do for the other.

Sounds like a bargain to me.

[KainD]

eluvianix wrote...

Why would a bond with a demon necessarily be symbiotic and not just terribly one sided on their end?

Because a demon can have much more from you than from your body. 

[Hellion Rex]

Veruin wrote...

Bargain - an agreement between two or more parties as to what each party will do for the other.

Sounds like a bargain to me.

It's a demon. Demons can lie. Hell, they're probably some of the best liars out there. Even if they claimed to desire a beneficial "partnership," once you let a demon in, there is absolutely nothing stopping it from gaining total dominion.

[KainD]

Veruin wrote...

Bargain - an agreement between two or more parties as to what each party will do for the other.

Sounds like a bargain to me.

I prefer the ''What each party will get from the other.'' 

That way it doesn't sound like some unpleasant work is to be done. 

[Veruin]

KainD wrote...

Because a demon can have much more from you than from your body. 

Barring your soul, (if those even exist in Dragon Age), there really isn't anything that a demon DOESN'T have when they are inside you.

eluvianix wrote...

It's a demon. Demons can lie. Hell, they're probably some of the best liars out there. Even if they claimed to desire a beneficial "partnership," once you let a demon in, there is absolutely nothing stopping it from gaining total dominion.

My main point was to counter Kain saying that the demon deal isn't a bargain.

Modifié par Veruin, 01 janvier 2014 - 11:02 .

[KainD]

Veruin wrote...
Barring your soul, (if those even exist in Dragon Age), there really isn't anything that a demon DOESN'T have when they are inside you.

No feed, no guidence, shock, that's what a demon gets. 

[The Elder King]

@KainD: you're assuming that a demon wants to cooperate with a mage, to from an equal bond. Until I'll see a demon that would want such a thing, there is nothing in the game or lore that suggest that demons would be interested in such a relationship. From the little Bioware talked about demons so far in DAI development, I don't think demons will be portrayed in a way where they'd be interested in a equal relationship with a mage.

[KainD]

hhh89 wrote...

@KainD: you're assuming that a demon wants to cooperate with a mage, to from an equal bond. Until I'll see a demon that would want such a thing, there is nothing in the game or lore that suggest that demons would be interested in such a relationship. From the little Bioware talked about demons so far in DAI development, I don't think demons will be portrayed in a way where they'd be interested in a equal relationship with a mage.

I agree that we should learn about demon nature more, but from what I've seen so far, it would be very possible. 
I'd like to point out though, that the Rivain mages that become possesed for mutual benefit. 

[Hellion Rex]

KainD wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@KainD: you're assuming that a demon wants to cooperate with a mage, to from an equal bond. Until I'll see a demon that would want such a thing, there is nothing in the game or lore that suggest that demons would be interested in such a relationship. From the little Bioware talked about demons so far in DAI development, I don't think demons will be portrayed in a way where they'd be interested in a equal relationship with a mage.

I agree that we should learn about demon nature more, but from what I've seen so far, it would be very possible. 
I'd like to point out though, that the Rivain mages that become possesed for mutual benefit. 

In Rivain though, I don't think they would allow possession by a demon. I would argue that they would only allow possession by more benevolent spirits.

[KainD]

eluvianix wrote...

In Rivain though, I don't think they would allow possession by a demon. I would argue that they would only allow possession by more benevolent spirits.

I'm sure there are lots of different entities in the fade demons/spirits, a bit black&white understanding. There are wisps, there could be more powerful wisps, or other interesting inhabitants. And even demons/spirits, they don't exactly always represent what they are feeding from, it's just their resourse, and I'm sure they can switch around a bit as well. 

[Invisible Man]

@KainD
no offense, but... you're crazier than anyone I've ever heard about, ever. and that's saying quite a lot.

[The Elder King]

@KainD: in Rivaini it is known that some of the seers who merge with spirits lost control, became abominations and massacrate people. The Rivaini don't care much about it becuase they believe it's part of the natural cycle or something like that. Plus, the codex probably talks about spirits, not demons so there's still no source that a demon (or a spirit of pride, desire, sloth, rage or hunger if you prefer) is willing to form an equal relationship with a mage. Unless I saw an example of this, I'll still continue to believe that demons aren't willing to cooperate with mortals, as far as I see it. I'd like to know what makes you believe that some demons would be willing to cooperate on equal terms with mortals.
Though to be fair, I'm wary about spirits too. The codex about Rivaini seers, as well as Anders, shown that spirit merging isn't completely safe, and that it's not something every mage could do, expecially without proper training (which I hope the seers do).

[Hellion Rex]

hhh89 wrote...

@KainD: in Rivaini it is known that some of the seers who merge with spirits lost control, became abominations and massacrate people. The Rivaini don't care much about it becuase they believe it's part of the natural cycle or something like that. Plus, the codex probably talks about spirits, not demons so there's still no source that a demon (or a spirit of pride, desire, sloth, rage or hunger if you prefer) is willing to form an equal relationship with a mage. Unless I saw an example of this, I'll still continue to believe that demons aren't willing to cooperate with mortals, as far as I see it. I'd like to know what makes you believe that some demons would be willing to cooperate on equal terms with mortals.
Though to be fair, I'm wary about spirits too. The codex about Rivaini seers, as well as Anders, shown that spirit merging isn't completely safe, and that it's not something every mage could do, expecially without proper training (which I hope the seers do).

Whoa who whoa, we have no data whatsoever on the Rivaini seers other than that they do indeed practice spirit possession, and that they were Annulled in part because of it. We have no idea the range of abominations that were produced, or even if they were produced at all.

[The Elder King]

I remember reading that some seers lost control. I'll try to find it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

We know that there have been Abominations in Rivain. And we know the attitude of the Rivaini poeple towards Abomination,

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We know that there have been Abominations in Rivain. And we know the attitude of the Rivaini poeple towards Abomination,

I am not disagreeing with the fact there were undoubtably Abominations within Rivain. I am just saying we have no evidence as to how many were a result of Rivaini seer possession or how many were just run of the mill mages turning into abominations.

[The Elder King]

Eh, I can't find it. My apologies, I must have confused the Rivaini attitude about abominations with some seers losing control.
Anyway, Anders alone shown that there is danger in spirit merging. And I'd be glad if the possessed seers don't lose control of their spirits, since it'd mean that their training and selection of the seers for the merge is good and effective, and that they're careful.

Modifié par hhh89, 02 janvier 2014 - 02:31 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We know that there have been Abominations in Rivain. And we know the attitude of the Rivaini poeple towards Abomination,

I am not disagreeing with the fact there were undoubtably Abominations within Rivain. I am just saying we have no evidence as to how many were a result of Rivaini seer possession or how many were just run of the mill mages turning into abominations.

Considering that MOST other mages would still be in the Circle, and only the Seers were living outside the Circles. With this knowledge we can deduce that most Abominations on the countryside would be the result of Seers. Especially because of the fact that we know they practice willing spirit possession.

[KainD]

hhh89 wrote...
I'll still continue to believe that demons aren't willing to cooperate with mortals, as far as I see it.

If what we have so far is not enough for you, fair enough, let's see what else Bioware has in store for us. 

hhh89 wrote...
I'd like to know what makes you believe that some demons would be willing to cooperate on equal terms with mortals.

They feed of mortals. Having your own personal battery at your disposal at all times is quote beneficial. Having someone from the world, to show it to you in proper light is a good way to satisfy curiosity.