442 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Eliminating the only police force equipped to stop them is only going to encourage mages to abuse their powers.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

Eliminating the only police force equipped to stop them is only going to encourage mages to abuse their powers.

Some, yes. Not all.

[Lulupab]

MisterJB wrote...

Eliminating the only police force equipped to stop them is only going to encourage mages to abuse their powers.

First of all lets take a look this "police force equipped to stop mages". Templar talents and advantanges are useless against blood magic as it targets the blood itself to which lyrium is no protection. To sum this up all blood magic spells ignore every kind of resistance in-game in both games. In DA2 if it wasn't for Hawke kirkwall and its Templars would have fallen to blood magic ages ago. So they are not as strong as you think they are. the only advnatage Templars have in this matter is the fact that there are not a lot of blood mages but harrass mages further and see what happens.

I'm not against controlling mages but current method involving the cricles was comptletely harsh and inhuman. A better method never hurts. Maybe sir thrask version where Templars  and mages are united against Demons is a better solution. Instead Templars squeeze the mages and anger them, making them desperate for a little bit of freedom and we all know that there is almost nothing a desperate person wont do.

Besides we can alwasy get rid of Templars and start a new and less harsh order to control mages. One that doesn't think maker is on their side therefore they can do anything. Lets name them Guardians for sake of helping mages not get possessed.

[Hellion Rex]

Rassler wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Eliminating the only police force equipped to stop them is only going to encourage mages to abuse their powers.

First of all lets take a look this "police force equipped to stop mages". Templar talents and advantanges are useless against blood magic as it targets the blood itself to which lyrium is no protection. To sum this up all blood magic spells ignore every kind of resistance in-game in both games.

Templars can actually defend against blood magic (see Evangeline in Asunder), it is just a hell of a lot harder to do. Also, if you Holy Smite a blood mage, it would still harm that mage greatly, regardless if they are using actual blood magic or not. Templar powers hurt any mage, and use of blood magic doesn't negate the efficiency of Templar abilities to hurt a maleficar.

Modifié par eluvianix, 28 décembre 2013 - 07:46 .

[Lulupab]

eluvianix wrote...

Rassler wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Eliminating the only police force equipped to stop them is only going to encourage mages to abuse their powers.

First of all lets take a look this "police force equipped to stop mages". Templar talents and advantanges are useless against blood magic as it targets the blood itself to which lyrium is no protection. To sum this up all blood magic spells ignore every kind of resistance in-game in both games.

Templars can actually defend against blood magic (see Evangeline in Asunder), it is just a hell of a lot harder to do. Also, if you Holy Smite a blood mage, it would still harm that mage greatly, regardless if they are using actual blood magic or not. Templar powers hurt any mage, and use of blood magic doesn't negate the efficiency of Templar abilities to hurt a maleficar.

That wouldn't have stopped templars dying horribly in kirkwall without Hawke's help. Possessd Templars was epic. Also don't forget the only way to stop blood magic's mind control effects is a scribed magic which can only be prepared by another mage which puts templars at a disadvantage in current war as they no longer have mages at hand to do it for them.

Also according to lore a templar can only smite once after each injecttion of lyrium so it can't be used that frequently.

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...
First of all lets take a look this "police force equipped to stop mages". Templar talents and advantanges are useless against blood magic as it targets the blood itself to which lyrium is no protection. To sum this up all blood magic spells ignore every kind of resistance in-game in both games. In DA2 if it wasn't for Hawke kirkwall and its Templars would have fallen to blood magic ages ago. So they are not as strong as you think they are.

Even if Hawke sides with the mages, the best they can do is escape. The Templars win the battle.
While blood magic can't be nullified, there is such a thing as tactics. Dodge, attack while he is charging the spell, attack from a distance with arrows, present a bait in the form of a shield wall while a templar hunter backstabs, etc.

the only advnatage Templars have in this matter is the fact that there are not a lot of blood mages but harrass mages further and see what happens.

And if they are no deterrents, they will turn to blood magic.

I'm not against controlling mages but current method involving the cricles was comptletely harsh and inhuman. A better method never hurts. Maybe sir thrask version where Templars  and mages are united against Demons is a better solution. Instead Templars squeeze the mages and anger them, making them desperate for a little bit of freedom and we all know that there is almost nothing a desperate person wont do.

Besides we can alwasy get rid of Templars and start a new and less harsh order to control mages. One that doesn't think maker is on their side therefore they can do anything. Lets name them Guardians for sake of helping mages not get possessed.

I disagree entirely. The Circle provided better living conditions than most of Thedas; Thrask allowed blood magic and couldn't tell that his co-conspirator was an Abomination so, everything that leaves his mouth should be disregarded imediatelly; and you didn't mention extablishing a "new order" in your original post hence my original response.
Plus, a templar by any other name is still a templar. A new name isn't going to erase two thousand years of hatred and conflict between normals and mages.

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...
That wouldn't have stopped templars dying horribly in kirkwall without Hawke's help.

Hawke's help didn't stop the mages from dying horribly in Kirkwall.

Also don't forget the only way to stop blood magic's mind control effects is a scribed magic which can only be prepared by another mage which puts templars at a disadvantage in current war as they no longer have mages at hand to do it for them.

There is nothing that indicates magic needs to be involved in Andralla's Litany at all. As far as we know, you just have to read words on a paper.
Also, with enough willpower, people can resist a blood mage's control.

Also according to lore a templar can only smite once after each injecttion of lyrium so it can't be used that frequently.

And where would that be stated?

[Hellion Rex]

Rassler wrote...
Also according to lore a templar can only smite once after each injecttion of lyrium so it can't be used that frequently.

Completely not true.

[Lulupab]

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...
First of all lets take a look this "police force equipped to stop mages". Templar talents and advantanges are useless against blood magic as it targets the blood itself to which lyrium is no protection. To sum this up all blood magic spells ignore every kind of resistance in-game in both games. In DA2 if it wasn't for Hawke kirkwall and its Templars would have fallen to blood magic ages ago. So they are not as strong as you think they are.

Even if Hawke sides with the mages, the best they can do is escape. The Templars win the battle.
While blood magic can't be nullified, there is such a thing as tactics. Dodge, attack while he is charging the spell, attack from a distance with arrows, present a bait in the form of a shield wall while a templar hunter backstabs, etc.

the only advnatage Templars have in this matter is the fact that there are not a lot of blood mages but harrass mages further and see what happens.

And if they are no deterrents, they will turn to blood magic.

I'm not against controlling mages but current method involving the cricles was comptletely harsh and inhuman. A better method never hurts. Maybe sir thrask version where Templars  and mages are united against Demons is a better solution. Instead Templars squeeze the mages and anger them, making them desperate for a little bit of freedom and we all know that there is almost nothing a desperate person wont do.

Besides we can alwasy get rid of Templars and start a new and less harsh order to control mages. One that doesn't think maker is on their side therefore they can do anything. Lets name them Guardians for sake of helping mages not get possessed.

I disagree entirely. The Circle provided better living conditions than most of Thedas; Thrask allowed blood magic and couldn't tell that his co-conspirator was an Abomination so, everything that leaves his mouth should be disregarded imediatelly; and you didn't mention extablishing a "new order" in your original post hence my original response.
Plus, a templar by any other name is still a templar. A new name isn't going to erase two thousand years of hatred and conflict between normals and mages.

What do you think would have happened if Hawke didn't stop demons possessing Templars? What do you think would have happend if Hawke didn't kill Orsino's abomination form whatever he was called. Templars have lost against mages a lot of times, it also happened in DA:O and uldred's case and all the time Templars had to wait for reinforcements to control the situation otherwise they already lost horribly, a reinforcement that mages never had. But now it will be different because this time reinforcements will come for mages as well.

In short Templars always had the number advantages as other templars joined them from other cities but mages didn't have any help. In this war they will have help and a lot of it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I think you overestimate the mages' numbers.

[Lulupab]

MisterJB wrote...

Rassler wrote...
That wouldn't have stopped templars dying horribly in kirkwall without Hawke's help.

Hawke's help didn't stop the mages from dying horribly in Kirkwall.

Also don't forget the only way to stop blood magic's mind control effects is a scribed magic which can only be prepared by another mage which puts templars at a disadvantage in current war as they no longer have mages at hand to do it for them.

There is nothing that indicates magic needs to be involved in Andralla's Litany at all. As far as we know, you just have to read words on a paper.
Also, with enough willpower, people can resist a blood mage's control.

Also according to lore a templar can only smite once after each injecttion of lyrium so it can't be used that frequently.

And where would that be stated?

Quote form wiki "The Litany of Adralla disrupts the  casting of mind control spells. Use the Litany whenever a creature tries to dominate another with magic, and it will interrupt the casting. Once the spell is in effect and a character is under a blood mage's power,  it is too late.

I think a mage has to write those words magically but after that anyone can use it. The Litany was invented by a mage as well, named Adralla of Vyrantium.

Also I forget where but I read that casting holy smite is very tiring for templars and it requires frequnet injection of lyrium. I think its true because we never saw a templar use holy smite in game demos etc... only the player uses it. Besides it has ridiculus stamina cost.

Hawke's help didn't stop the mages from dying horribly in Kirkwall.

Irrelevant. Hawke stopped events that would have ended Templars in Kirkwall. Like possessed Templars or Orsino's demon form.

Modifié par Rassler, 28 décembre 2013 - 08:11 .

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think you overestimate the mages' numbers.

Do we actually have any statistics in the lore that gives a clue as to the average number of mages born in a certain population group? I know that mages are an extreme minority, but still.

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...
What do you think would have happened if Hawke didn't stop demons possessing Templars? 

Considering that all it took was a kick to the groin to have those demon reveal themselves, I'm not worried
They'd be discovered and killed.

What do you think would have happend if Hawke didn't kill Orsino's abomination form whatever he was called.

Harvester.
And the Templar army stationed in the Gallows would have killed it.

Templars have lost against mages a lot of times, it also happened in DA:O and uldred's case and all the time Templars had to wait for reinforcements to control the situation otherwise they already lost horribly, a reinforcement that mages never had.

Those weren't mages, those were Abominations and Demons. The actualy mages got overrun even quicker.

But now it will be different because this time reinforcements will come for mages as well.

In short Templars always had the number advantages as other templars joined them from other cities but mages didn't have any help. In this war they will have help and a lot of it.

Mages are ridiculously, impossibly outnumbered.

[Hellion Rex]

Rassler wrote...

Hawke's help didn't stop the mages from dying horribly in Kirkwall.

Irrelevant. Hawke stopped events that would have ended Templars in Kirkwall. Like possessed Templars or Orsino's demon form.

Ok, I doubt Tarohne's plan would have gotten much farther. Hawke certainly helped but the Knight Captain, Cullen, clearly knew something was up, and that Meredith knew stuff was going on. Hence, I think she would have handled it eventually. Also, considering Orsino transformed into a Harvester, which is not a demon, the Templar Order could have destroyed the creature with or without Hawke's help. The Harvester is still a creature of magic, and would be susceptible to Templar powers, not to mention Meredith red lyrium sword which would probably cut through Orsino like butter.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

Mages are ridiculously, impossibly outnumbered.

I wouldn't say impossibly. The odds are not in our favor, but we don't know the state of the Templar order either, considering Lambert is MIA, and he led the Templar and Seeker split from the Chantry.

[MisterJB]

Rassler wrote...
I think a mage has to write those words magically but after that anyone can use it. The Litany was invented by a mage as well, named Adralla of Vyrantium.

Also I forget where but I read that casting holy smite is very tiring for templars and it requires frequnet injection of lyrium. I think its true because we never saw a templar use holy smite in game demos etc... only the player uses it. Besides it has ridiculus stamina cost.

You "thinK" and  you "forget".

The first one is speculation and the second one "frequent injection of lyrium" could mean anything from every five minutes to the normal monthly dose.

Irrelevant.

Mages went toe to toe with Templars and lost.
That is a very relevant information in the subject matter of "Mage-Templar War".

[The Hierophant]

Rassler wrote...

What do you think would have happened if Hawke didn't stop demons possessing Templars? What do you think would have happend if Hawke didn't kill Orsino's abomination form whatever he was called. Templars have lost against mages a lot of times, it also happened in DA:O and uldred's case and all the time Templars had to wait for reinforcements to control the situation otherwise they already lost horribly, a reinforcement that mages never had. But now it will be different because this time reinforcements will come for mages as well.

It's debateable that Tarohne's plan would've succeeded in crippling the Templer Order when there's already suspicion towards the missing Templer recruits, while Meredith would've torn Orsino a new one with the feats she displayed in Act3.

[Dave of Canada]

Majority > Minority.

I don't like condemning everyone else to **** lives because a few people think they have it bad when they don't.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 28 décembre 2013 - 08:22 .

[Hellion Rex]

The Hierophant wrote...

Rassler wrote...

What do you think would have happened if Hawke didn't stop demons possessing Templars? What do you think would have happend if Hawke didn't kill Orsino's abomination form whatever he was called. Templars have lost against mages a lot of times, it also happened in DA:O and uldred's case and all the time Templars had to wait for reinforcements to control the situation otherwise they already lost horribly, a reinforcement that mages never had. But now it will be different because this time reinforcements will come for mages as well.

It's debateable that Tarohne's plan would've succeeded in crippling the Templer Order when there's already suspicion towards the missing Templer recruits, while Meredith would've torn Orsino a new one with the feats she displayed in Act3.

Yeah, I am thinking that the big*** lyrium sword would cut through Orsino like butter.

[Lulupab]

MisterJB wrote...
Mages are ridiculously, impossibly outnumbered.

We have to agree to disagree as the events are quite unkown if Hawke didn't interupt. But you have to accept the possibility of Templar failure. It could have happen. there is no sure way to know


Mages are outnumbered but it hasn't stopped them before. For example Anders killed Rolan and a few dozen of templars along with a full patrol of grey wardens without a scratch. Have you read his story written by Jennifer Helper? Rolan stabbed Anders with his sword but nothing happened and Anders ripped his head off. It depends of how mages decide to fight the war. with just magic or help from the fade.

It seems spirit possession is a much better way to fight templars than blood magic or anything else and with Anders or at least Justice alive I'd say an army of mages possessed by spirits capable of curing tranquility incoming!

[billy the squid]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I think you overestimate the mages' numbers.

Do we actually have any statistics in the lore that gives a clue as to the average number of mages born in a certain population group? I know that mages are an extreme minority, but still.

No, but consider, all the mages in Ferelden are supposed to be housed in the Circle, it doesn't bode well for mage numbers if they can be housed in a single structure for that state. Maybe a couple of hundred, if that, maybe a few more if you include children, considering the support staff and Templar keepers are also housed in the Tower there is a simple issue of logistical support of the occupants if people think there's room for more than a few hundred occupants in the Tower to live, train, sleep and be fed.

But, depends on the size of the population, Orlais may have a larger number if it's more highly populated. 

Modifié par billy the squid, 28 décembre 2013 - 08:29 .

[The Elder King]

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Mages are ridiculously, impossibly outnumbered.

I wouldn't say impossibly. The odds are not in our favor, but we don't know the state of the Templar order either, considering Lambert is MIA, and he led the Templar and Seeker split from the Chantry.

Indeed. 
I think that the templars would have a great advantage in theory, but the fact that they might not have a leader able to mantain the unity of the Order (the fact that that some of them probably split in the RT isn't a good sign for them), and that they might have troubles in continously supplying all templars of lyrium could balance a bit the situation.
Lambert was surely able to mantain them united under one goal. I don't know if his successor will be able to do the same.

[MisterJB]

Meredith and some Templars help fight Orsino if you sided with them.

[The Elder King]

@Rassler: Anders was an abomination at that point/merged with Justice at that point. Abominations are lorewise enourmously powerful, and in Asunder Wynne when 'used' by Faith could easily defeat a pride demon alone.

Modifié par hhh89, 28 décembre 2013 - 08:32 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rassler wrote...

Hawke's help didn't stop the mages from dying horribly in Kirkwall.

Irrelevant. Hawke stopped events that would have ended Templars in Kirkwall. Like possessed Templars or Orsino's demon form.

The Harvester would have been destroyed by the Templars regardless of Hawke. And Tarohne's plan would have been stopped by the Templars. Remember that Hawke was working under orders from the Templars? No? WEll, he was. What do you think the Templars would have done, if they couldn't hire Hawke? Just forget about it, and let go of their investigation? No. They would just have handled it on their own.