442 réponses à ce sujet

[Red Panda]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Invisible Man wrote...

there is the templar-free circle in the imperium too.

Templar exist in the Imperium. It's how they keep weak mages in line and deal with abominations.

Difference is, Tevinter Templar's checks are paid by the magisters rather than the Chantry.

Templars in the imperium don't know how to fight against magic so no they don't keep anyone  in check.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

[Texhnolyze101]

OperatingWookie wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Invisible Man wrote...

there is the templar-free circle in the imperium too.

Templar exist in the Imperium. It's how they keep weak mages in line and deal with abominations.

Difference is, Tevinter Templar's checks are paid by the magisters rather than the Chantry.

Templars in the imperium don't know how to fight against magic so no they don't keep anyone  in check.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

It says so on the wiki

[Red Panda]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Invisible Man wrote...

there is the templar-free circle in the imperium too.

Templar exist in the Imperium. It's how they keep weak mages in line and deal with abominations.

Difference is, Tevinter Templar's checks are paid by the magisters rather than the Chantry.

Templars in the imperium don't know how to fight against magic so no they don't keep anyone  in check.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

It says so on the wiki

The wiki is not a scholarly source.

Right? Right?


Alright, checkmate, you win.

[Texhnolyze101]

OperatingWookie wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

OperatingWookie wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Invisible Man wrote...

there is the templar-free circle in the imperium too.

Templar exist in the Imperium. It's how they keep weak mages in line and deal with abominations.

Difference is, Tevinter Templar's checks are paid by the magisters rather than the Chantry.

Templars in the imperium don't know how to fight against magic so no they don't keep anyone  in check.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

It says so on the wiki

The wiki is not a scholarly source.

Right? Right?


Alright, checkmate, you win.

Well I guess we will all find out if we get to see Tevinter which IMO is the only place worth seeing other then the Anderfels and Nevarra.

[Treacherous J Slither]

BlueMagitek wrote...

JSlither wrote...

I support the mages. With training they are no longer dangerous and oppressing them cannot be justified.

Who is Wynne a danger to? Bethany? Zarathian? Merrill? Malcolm?

What's the big deal?

Should Professor Xavier of Marvels X-Men be locked up?
Should his enemy Magneto be locked up?

One is praised for his good deeds. The other is hated for his evil deeds. They are judged on their actions. Only ignorant, hateful fools fearful of their power condemn them both.

They still face danger even with training; you see a Senior Enchanter (Uldred) become an abomination, and he seemed to be in Irving's trusted circle.

Also, Xavier should totally be locked up for what he has done.  Have you forgotten Onslaught?

Uldred was a dummy that fooled around with a demon stronger than him. There will always be some dummy to do something dumb. That's where the magic police come in. Mages and mundanes trained to handle stuff like that. But that kind of thing is rare. Your average mage will never encounter an abomination much less your average thedosian. Demonic possession is a fringe threat. Proper knowledge and training makes it even less of a threat.
Appaerently I have forgotten Onslaught. Still, he's judged on his actions and not his potential. Same should be for the mages.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Youth4Ever wrote...

*Flips coin.

This.

Without context, mage v. Templar is as meaningful a decision to me as a coin-flip.

[dragonflight288]

OperatingWookie wrote...

I still think a mandate requiring mages and templars to procreate with each other would go a long way in flipping the gravity of the situation on its head.

That already happens. It's called templars raping mages in their quarters, and possibly illegally tranquilizing them afterwards or before.

[EmperorSahlertz]

And heere we go again.... Funny how a grand total of TWO cases of Templars raping mages in the game, has suddenly become to accepted norm for the pro-mages. Yet they continuesly cry their eyes out, if someone were to generalize all mages as blood mages.

Can you PLEASE start use logic in your arguments, and empirical proof to your statements?

[Invisible Man]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And heere we go again.... Funny how a grand total of TWO cases of Templars raping mages in the game, has suddenly become to accepted norm for the pro-mages. Yet they continuesly cry their eyes out, if someone were to generalize all mages as blood mages.

Can you PLEASE start use logic in your arguments, and empirical proof to your statements?

I guess I happen to be a mage supporter, or maybe a mage-templar diplomat (if you get my meaning), though I do have to agree with you about that, or most of that. I've seen it myself. not so much the crying eyes and all but still.  

[BlueMagitek]

JSlither wrote...

Uldred was a dummy that fooled around with a demon stronger than him. There will always be some dummy to do something dumb. That's where the magic police come in. Mages and mundanes trained to handle stuff like that. But that kind of thing is rare. Your average mage will never encounter an abomination much less your average thedosian. Demonic possession is a fringe threat. Proper knowledge and training makes it even less of a threat.
Appaerently I have forgotten Onslaught. Still, he's judged on his actions and not his potential. Same should be for the mages.

But that goes against your initial argument, that training gets rid of the general dangers of magic; when it is possible for a senior enchanter to be susceptible to such a thing, that argument falls flat. 
The average mundane never encounters that, because most mages are in the Circle.  Have you forgotten Redcliffe?

You asked if both Xavier and Magneto should be locked up; I would actually advocate that, on the basis of their potentials, Xavier be watched more than Magneto, as Xavier is capable of completely rewriting a person's memory and more.

[Medhia Nox]

@JSlither: Where do you get demonic possession is a "fringe" threat? It happens ALL the time in two games.

Now, you could say: "It only happens in Circles." Yeah - it only happens where mages are, and mages are - for the most part - in Circles.

People cannot use the PC, and their own ego, to diminish the demonic threat - the person I would trust LEAST to handle demons, would be the person confident they could handle demons.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 29 décembre 2013 - 04:17 .

[wright1978]

I'd have to opt for mages if it was a straight black and white choice. I however hope there's more nuance to the options.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And heere we go again.... Funny how a grand total of TWO cases of Templars raping mages in the game, has suddenly become to accepted norm for the pro-mages. Yet they continuesly cry their eyes out, if someone were to generalize all mages as blood mages.

Can you PLEASE start use logic in your arguments, and empirical proof to your statements?

How about another example that is canon and isn't really rape...although we don't know the full details.

Wynne and her son Rys, we know the father was a templar, or at least it's heavily implied.

EDIT: This doesn't mean Wynne was raped, as we don't know the details, so I'm making no claims.

But we have two confirmed templars we know about, but based on conversations with Anders and a lot of the subtext we hear from the apprentices in the mage origin, we know it's likely quite common.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 29 décembre 2013 - 06:23 .

[Dabrikishaw]

Templars first, Then Mages.

[Navasha]

No question about it.   Mages.   Of course, that assuming that you have to choose one or the other based solely on what we already know about the situation.  

The mages have by far the greatest number of innocent people within their ranks and the Templars have by far the greatest number of abusers in theirs. 

Templars hold power over the mages of the circle, hence any abuse by those in authority and power is a malicious act.   Pretty plain and simple as far as I am concerned.   The whole circle concept is basically set up to condemn innocent people based solely on the POTENTIAL for them do do harm.  

Under that system the Divine herself should be condemned to a prison for her sole potential to call a holy war that could destroy thousands of lives at a whim.  

Modifié par Navasha, 29 décembre 2013 - 06:38 .

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

Since people were too busy arguing with each other yesterday to see my posts...

Neverwinter_Knight77 wrote...

I've always thought the mages vs. templars thing was pretty uninteresting, honestly.  I had hoped it would remain a side plot, as it was in DA:O.  But if I had to choose, I would liberate the mages.  I'm 100% certain that (unless the writing is just garbage), most of Thedas's nutjobs were in Kirkwall, so normal, smart mages would never consort with demons.

I mean, seriously, in DA 2, mages were like "Oh, snap.  I'm gonna be scolded for not throwing my trash away.  Better cut myself.  Demons RULE!!  Possess me plox!"

Neverwinter_Knight77 wrote...

Speaking of blood mages cutting themselves, I'm still trying to process Grace impaling herself and pulling an entire staff through her body.

[Magdalena11]

I pick mages and here's why:

Templars can disrupt magic and drain mana but they need expensive, addictive lyrium to do it. They can help enforce law and order but that's a job that the non-templar guard and army can do just as well.

Mages can heal wounds and use their power to make everyone's lives better. Magic can be used to clear rubble or mine. Mages are called upon in times of war to help defend the weak.

What about possession? The mages can prevent that amongst themselves. They have every bit if not more desire to make sure no one gets possessed. It's in their midst the abomination is going to manifest. They can fight the abomination themselves too. Wynne and the apprentices were doing a pretty good job keeping the abominations in.

And, of course the fact that everyone assumes the templars are good and noble and would never stoop to using their position to abuse their charges belies the fact is that they're only human and have been shown to be susceptible to the same human frailties as anyone else.

[SgtSteel91]

Magdalena11 wrote...
And, of course the fact that everyone assumes the templars are good and noble and would never stoop to using their position to abuse their charges belies the fact is that they're only human and have been shown to be susceptible to the same human frailties as anyone else.

But mages aren't susceptible those same frailities? If not more so since they can use their superior abilites to rule the population as they see fit?

[BlueMagitek]

Neverwinter_Knight77 wrote...

Since people were too busy arguing with each other yesterday to see my posts...

Neverwinter_Knight77 wrote...

I've always thought the mages vs. templars thing was pretty uninteresting, honestly.  I had hoped it would remain a side plot, as it was in DA:O.  But if I had to choose, I would liberate the mages.  I'm 100% certain that (unless the writing is just garbage), most of Thedas's nutjobs were in Kirkwall, so normal, smart mages would never consort with demons.

I mean, seriously, in DA 2, mages were like "Oh, snap.  I'm gonna be scolded for not throwing my trash away.  Better cut myself.  Demons RULE!!  Possess me plox!"

Neverwinter_Knight77 wrote...

Speaking of blood mages cutting themselves, I'm still trying to process Grace impaling herself and pulling an entire staff through her body.

Well, since you asked, we see a supposedly normal mage, Wilhelm, consort with demons, trapping a Desire Demon in the basement (along with a number of Shades and things), which potentially led to his granddaughter being possessed.  See: Shale DLC.

So really, it just takes one act of pride or lack of foresight for something terrible to happen.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And heere we go again.... Funny how a grand total of TWO cases of Templars raping mages in the game, has suddenly become to accepted norm for the pro-mages. Yet they continuesly cry their eyes out, if someone were to generalize all mages as blood mages.

Can you PLEASE start use logic in your arguments, and empirical proof to your statements?

How about another example that is canon and isn't really rape...although we don't know the full details.

Wynne and her son Rys, we know the father was a templar, or at least it's heavily implied.

EDIT: This doesn't mean Wynne was raped, as we don't know the details, so I'm making no claims.

But we have two confirmed templars we know about, but based on conversations with Anders and a lot of the subtext we hear from the apprentices in the mage origin, we know it's likely quite common.

I sincerly doubt Wynne was raped considering her whole attitude towards it. Anders is a highly unreliable source, since he is just about as bad as most pro-mages on BSN, and likely embelish "facts" to further empower his claims. And what exactly are you referring to in the mage origins? I don't recall ANY of the other mages say that they were raped by Templars... Nor do I recall reading about it anywhere..

SO to sum up: We got TWO cases of known Templars raping mages and then we got the claims of Anders..... Yeah... All Tempalrs are like totally rapists and stuff. Or at least 9 out of 10 of them!

[Magdalena11]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Magdalena11 wrote...
And, of course the fact that everyone assumes the templars are good and noble and would never stoop to using their position to abuse their charges belies the fact is that they're only human and have been shown to be susceptible to the same human frailties as anyone else.

But mages aren't susceptible those same frailities? If not more so since they can use their superior abilites to rule the population as they see fit?

Of course they are subject to the same frailties, which is why I suggested some restrictions to their liberty.  

Here's another question - If mages have such superior ability why do they consent to being locked away in the first place?

[SgtSteel91]

Magdalena11 wrote...

Here's another question - If mages have such superior ability why do they consent to being locked away in the first place?

Because by the time the Templars come to take them away they have no idea how to control their powers. It seems to me that after being taken to a Circle and trained that some mages want to no longer be locked up.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And heere we go again.... Funny how a grand total of TWO cases of Templars raping mages in the game, has suddenly become to accepted norm for the pro-mages. Yet they continuesly cry their eyes out, if someone were to generalize all mages as blood mages.

Can you PLEASE start use logic in your arguments, and empirical proof to your statements?

How about another example that is canon and isn't really rape...although we don't know the full details.

Wynne and her son Rys, we know the father was a templar, or at least it's heavily implied.

EDIT: This doesn't mean Wynne was raped, as we don't know the details, so I'm making no claims.

But we have two confirmed templars we know about, but based on conversations with Anders and a lot of the subtext we hear from the apprentices in the mage origin, we know it's likely quite common.

I sincerly doubt Wynne was raped considering her whole attitude towards it. Anders is a highly unreliable source, since he is just about as bad as most pro-mages on BSN, and likely embelish "facts" to further empower his claims. And what exactly are you referring to in the mage origins? I don't recall ANY of the other mages say that they were raped by Templars... Nor do I recall reading about it anywhere..

SO to sum up: We got TWO cases of known Templars raping mages and then we got the claims of Anders..... Yeah... All Tempalrs are like totally rapists and stuff. Or at least 9 out of 10 of them!

I never said she was raped and openly stated that we don't have the details so I wasn't calling it that.

But you can't dismiss Anders's words either. He was overly biased, yes, and he only saw the negatives of templars and the Circles and kind of gave a free pass to mages where he shouldn't, but it is equally wrong to dismiss what he says out of hand simply because he's biased. It's better to take what he says with a grain of salt,. But as someone who lived in the Circle, he would be more knowledgable about conditions there than we as gamers are.

As for Origins, there are a few things. That one female apprentice who says that the templars watch them, even when they bathe. There is that Templar in Broken Circle who was ensnared by a Desire Demon over his longing for a family. If you kill him and loot his corpse you get a note from Gregoire that says he was behaving inappropriately around the mages, especially the apprentices, and was being reassigned. His notes in the margins say he's being sent on a dead-end job. I think it's supposed to be implied that his desire for a family with the desire demon, alongside that note, shows that he was a danger to the female mages in Ferelden.

Those two cases we have are the only ones we know of that are explicity stated and made quite clear. There is plenty of subliminal implications throughout that expands it being just the two.

I'm not saying all templars are monsters and rapists, and never have I said that. There are pleny of cool templars I like and respect, but so long as the potential for abuse is there, and the templars have no oversight or fear of reprisal for their actions then there is a very serious problem with the whole system, and not just the templars or mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

But you can't dismiss Anders's words either. He was overly biased, yes, and he only saw the negatives of templars and the Circles and kind of gave a free pass to mages where he shouldn't, but it is equally wrong to dismiss what he says out of hand simply because he's biased. It's better to take what he says with a grain of salt,. But as someone who lived in the Circle, he would be more knowledgable about conditions there than we as gamers are. 

Yes, we most certainly can entirely dismiss Anders' claims, because they are entirely untrustworthy. If you want to get a realistic insight into life within the Circle you should listen to persons like Wynne, Rhys and Finn.
What Anders spew is propaganda, and should be dismissed as unusable in the gathering of empirical proof. It can be used in showcasing mage propaganda tactics though.

dragonflight288 wrote...

As for Origins, there are a few things. That one female apprentice who says that the templars watch them, even when they bathe. There is that Templar in Broken Circle who was ensnared by a Desire Demon over his longing for a family. If you kill him and loot his corpse you get a note from Gregoire that says he was behaving inappropriately around the mages, especially the apprentices, and was being reassigned. His notes in the margins say he's being sent on a dead-end job. I think it's supposed to be implied that his desire for a family with the desire demon, alongside that note, shows that he was a danger to the female mages in Ferelden.

We know there are female Templars, which I would imagine woudl be the kind of Templar assigned to watch over female mages bathing. In prisons on Earth prisoners are also watched in the bathes too, yet I don't see people use that as some sort of indicator that all prison wardens are rapists...
And I did not get that at all from the note. Especially since it doesn't mention mage apprentices AT ALL in that note, but rather Templar recruits....

dragonflight288 wrote...

Those two cases we have are the only ones we know of that are explicity stated and made quite clear. There is plenty of subliminal implications throughout that expands it being just the two.

I have yet to see ANY.

dragonflight288 wrote...

I'm not saying all templars are monsters and rapists, and never have I said that. There are pleny of cool templars I like and respect, but so long as the potential for abuse is there, and the templars have no oversight or fear of reprisal for their actions then there is a very serious problem with the whole system, and not just the templars or mages.

Potential for abuse is present in ALL systems. To demand that the Circle to be void of abuse is being unreasonable. What you should demand is better reactivity to such abuses.
And considering that the ONLY two cases we have of certified rape, both Templars went to great lengths to make sure that they weren't found out, seems to indicate that Templars CANNOT rape and murder mages with impunity.... Who would have thunk it, eh?

[Master Warder Z_]

 As i have said for years.

Lambert had the right of it.

Templars