That doesn't "end" the war, it just puts it on a backburner ... the only way to end it is to change the way magic works.dragonflight288 wrote...
Or have a Qunari invasion and pretty much force both sides to stop fighting simply to maintain their ways of life without being killed, their tongues cut out and their mouths sewn shut, or forcibly converted.
Modifié par PinkysPain, 30 décembre 2013 - 03:55 .
Medhia Nox wrote...
@JSlither: Where do you get demonic possession is a "fringe" threat? It happens ALL the time in two games.
Now, you could say: "It only happens in Circles." Yeah - it only happens where mages are, and mages are - for the most part - in Circles.
People cannot use the PC, and their own ego, to diminish the demonic threat - the person I would trust LEAST to handle demons, would be the person confident they could handle demons.
Modifié par JSlither, 30 décembre 2013 - 04:02 .
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I don't think you should take the ambient dialogue (or monologue technically) too seriously. It is there to set the atmosphere but that is about it. And the Gallows is a Circle with historically high numbers of failed Harrowings and Blood Mages. I don't think anyone can keep full track of every single Tranquil there. The Circle must house several hundreds of amges, remembering everyone of them by name and face, will be nigh on impossible for the higer ranked Templars, who probably don't have daily interactions with the lower ranked mages. And the lower ranked Templars are being coerced by Alrik to not bring the issue to Meredith.dragonflight288 wrote...
I don't think Alrik went to that great of length. True, Alrik really got onto his inferior for questioning his orders and pretty much kept him from going to Meredith, and Kerras warned Alain not to tell anyone about him going into his room at night, but a simple walk around the Gallows courtyard is enough to gather all necessary evidence against them. For Alrik, just count how many new tranquil there are, what they're saying and how they even say they belong to Alrik now.
Basically it is a case of the higher ups not knowing anything is amiss (and having no reasonable way of finding out on their own), and the lower ranks being incapable of bringing the issue up.I would guess that it really started deteriorating the moment Lambert was named High Lord Seeker. He was clearly better suited in the role as a Templar, but the Divine in her eternal wisdom made him Lord Seeker. Which brings me to my other point, the Templars had a high influence over the previous Divine (whose name I cannot remember), so it stands to reason that they would influence her to install a Lord Seeker who would be more sympathetic to the Templars than doing his actual job.dragonflight288 wrote...
But that brings me to the next thing you brought up. When did the templars stop fearing when the Seeker's showed up? When did they stop caring about being investigated? It's not really clear in the time-line so I won't speculate on that, but I think we can agree that as of the events of Asunder, or more accurately before the novel began but after Kirkwall, that the system wasn't working like it was originally designed in the Nevarran Accord where mages were allowed a certain level of autonomy whereas templars merely watched and advised (Gregoire, as well as World of Thedas on the Nevarran Accord.)
I don't know when things started going downhill, but the system as of the Dragon Age doesn't work and needs reformation.
Now don't get me wrong, I think what most of Lambert does in Asunder is fully justified, and even the correct course of action, but... His fervor does get the better of him, and as I said he would have been a far better Knight-Commander (or even Knight-Divine which supposedly is the highest ranking Templar) than Lord Seeker.
Modifié par Magdalena11, 30 décembre 2013 - 04:25 .
Medhia Nox wrote...
@JSlither: Where do you get demonic possession is a "fringe" threat? It happens ALL the time in two games.
Now, you could say: "It only happens in Circles." Yeah - it only happens where mages are, and mages are - for the most part - in Circles.
People cannot use the PC, and their own ego, to diminish the demonic threat - the person I would trust LEAST to handle demons, would be the person confident they could handle demons.
PinkysPain wrote...
That doesn't "end" the war, it just puts it on a backburner ... the only way to end it is to change the way magic works.dragonflight288 wrote...
Or have a Qunari invasion and pretty much force both sides to stop fighting simply to maintain their ways of life without being killed, their tongues cut out and their mouths sewn shut, or forcibly converted.
JSlither wrote...
I support the mages. With training they are no longer dangerous and oppressing them cannot be justified.
Should Professor Xavier of Marvels X-Men be locked up?
Should his enemy Magneto be locked up?
One is praised for his good deeds. The other is hated for his evil deeds. They are judged on their actions. Only ignorant, hateful fools fearful of their power condemn them both.
Magdalena11 wrote..
I don't think the facts support the statement that harrowed mages turn to abominations frequently. I don't think human beings and elves should be caged because of a few individuals or the theoretical harm they might do.
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Then I guess you're agaisnt quaranteens and locking people into mental wards?
Fast Jimmy wrote...
And what of the families who would murder their own child if they started showing magic behaviors? What of the village that would blame every death, crop failure and sickness on the local Mage and kill them for it? What of the Mages who would be forced to hide their own power, having no formal training and be even more likely to hurt themselves or someone else?
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Magdalena11 wrote..
I don't think the facts support the statement that harrowed mages turn to abominations frequently. I don't think human beings and elves should be caged because of a few individuals or the theoretical harm they might do.
Then I guess you're agaisnt quaranteens and locking people into mental wards?
Modifié par Magdalena11, 30 décembre 2013 - 12:29 .
Fast Jimmy wrote...
And what of the families who would murder their own child if they started showing magic behaviors? What of the village that would blame every death, crop failure and sickness on the local Mage and kill them for it? What of the Mages who would be forced to hide their own power, having no formal training and be even more likely to hurt themselves or someone else?
The Circles provide just as much protection to Mages as it does to the outside world.
Magdalena11 wrote...
You raise a good point (but I think a family would call for the templars before killing their child). The circle does protect those who can't protect themselves. If the chantry hadn't indoctrinated the public to be afraid it wouldn't be like that but that boat's already sailed. Having said this, a mage who has completed training and proven him- or herself to be both capable of adequate defense and self-restraint no longer needs these protections.
Modifié par BoBear, 30 décembre 2013 - 12:57 .
BoBear wrote...
Magdalena11 wrote...
You raise a good point (but I think a family would call for the templars before killing their child). The circle does protect those who can't protect themselves. If the chantry hadn't indoctrinated the public to be afraid it wouldn't be like that but that boat's already sailed. Having said this, a mage who has completed training and proven him- or herself to be both capable of adequate defense and self-restraint no longer needs these protections.
You can blame the peoples fear of magic on the Tevinter Imperium and mages themselves. Andraste didn't lead a rebellion against the Imperium because she was bored. The ship sailed with Tevinter at the wheel.
Mages may not hold any political power any more, but the people are still fully aware of the destructive capabilities of mages, and it is this which causes the fear and resentment. Not to mention that the Circle is of little comfort for a village ,if a blood mage or Abomination is already ravaging the village.Magdalena11 wrote...
Another good point but the Tevinter magisters haven't controlled Ferelden, the Free Marches, Orlais etc. for hundreds of years. Mages can't have political power but they can have rights. If the hate and fear hadn't been kept alive after the danger was past things might have been different. Of course might have beens are pointless and the world of the inquisition must be dealt with as it is found.
City Guards are barely trained militia, Templars are highly trained elite soldiers. If that isn't enough of a discrepancy to discourage the City Guard handling mages, then there is the issue of Lyrium.Magdalena11 wrote...
To reiterate - I support the mages because they are capable of contributing to society as healers, workers and protectors. The only purpose templars serve that couldn't be filled as well by a city guard or a standing army is to restrict mages, a job that could easily be filled by the mages themselves. I think everyone deserves the right to govern themselves.
Magdalena11 wrote...
Trained adult mages are unlikely to torch a village if the baker sells short weight. They realize the potential consequences of their actions. Remember that Willhelm lived in his tower in Honnleath and Rhys' sometime boss traveled to Tevinter to spy with Ryhs in tow under full permission of the circle. I discussed the actual rarity of abominations in a previous post.EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages may not hold any political power any more, but the people are still fully aware of the destructive capabilities of mages, and it is this which causes the fear and resentment. Not to mention that the Circle is of little comfort for a village ,if a blood mage or Abomination is already ravaging the village.Magdalena11 wrote...
Another good point but the Tevinter magisters haven't controlled Ferelden, the Free Marches, Orlais etc. for hundreds of years. Mages can't have political power but they can have rights. If the hate and fear hadn't been kept alive after the danger was past things might have been different. Of course might have beens are pointless and the world of the inquisition must be dealt with as it is found.Magdalena11 wrote...
To reiterate - I support the mages because they are capable of contributing to society as healers, workers and protectors. The only purpose templars serve that couldn't be filled as well by a city guard or a standing army is to restrict mages, a job that could easily be filled by the mages themselves. I think everyone deserves the right to govern themselves.If templars can be trained so can guards and militia. If templars can recruit any random orphan dropped on their doorstep and turn him into an elite soldier so can the guards and standing army. Note I did not use the word militia. There's a difference.EmporerSahlertz wrote...
City Guards are barely trained militia, Templars are highly trained elite soldiers. If that isn't enough of a discrepancy to discourage the City Guard handling mages, then there is the issue of Lyrium.
Yes, there's the issue of lyrium. It's expensive, addictive and encourages crime (the carta and coterie.) If mages were allowed to police their own, lyrium wouldn't be needed by the the vast majority of the people who use it. Actually, it would be because those who already use it are addicted but no new templars would get hooked.
The only reason Abominations are so rare is because the mages are being controlled to such a high degree. And while trained CIRCLE mages are unlikely to cause accidents and/or incidents, hedge mages are an entirely different matter, and blood mages an entirely third matter. Hedge mages do not have any formal certified trainning, and may therefore snap at any moment, and blood mages could just want to cut up the entire village to just get enough blood for whatever ritual he was planning.Magdalena11 wrote...
Trained adult mages are unlikely to torch a village if the baker sells short weight. They realize the potential consequences of their actions. Remember that Willhelm lived in his tower in Honnleath and Rhys' sometime boss traveled to Tevinter to spy with Ryhs in tow under full permission of the circle. I discussed the actual rarity of abominations in a previous post.EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Mages may not hold any political power any more, but the people are still fully aware of the destructive capabilities of mages, and it is this which causes the fear and resentment. Not to mention that the Circle is of little comfort for a village ,if a blood mage or Abomination is already ravaging the village.Magdalena11 wrote...
Another good point but the Tevinter magisters haven't controlled Ferelden, the Free Marches, Orlais etc. for hundreds of years. Mages can't have political power but they can have rights. If the hate and fear hadn't been kept alive after the danger was past things might have been different. Of course might have beens are pointless and the world of the inquisition must be dealt with as it is found.
There are no "standing armies" in Thedas. Other than the Templars, the Kirkwall City Guard and the Qunari. At least none that we know of.Magdalena11 wrote...
'If templars can be trained so can guards and militia. If templars can recruit any random orphan dropped on their doorstep and turn him into an elite soldier so can the guards and standing army. Note I did not use the word militia. There's a difference.EmperorSahlertz wrote...
City Guards are barely trained militia, Templars are highly trained elite soldiers. If that isn't enough of a discrepancy to discourage the City Guard handling mages, then there is the issue of Lyrium.Magdalena11 wrote...
To reiterate - I support the mages because they are capable of contributing to society as healers, workers and protectors. The only purpose templars serve that couldn't be filled as well by a city guard or a standing army is to restrict mages, a job that could easily be filled by the mages themselves. I think everyone deserves the right to govern themselves.
Yes, there's the issue of lyrium. It's expensive, addictive and encourages crime (the carta and coterie.) If mages were allowed to police their own, lyrium wouldn't be needed by the the vast majority of the people who use it. Actually, it would be because those who already use it are addicted but no new templars would get hooked.
You raise a good point (but I think a family would call for the templars before killing their child). The circle does protect those who can't protect themselves. If the chantry hadn't indoctrinated the public to be afraid it wouldn't be like that but that boat's already sailed. Having said this, a mage who has completed training and proven him- or herself to be both capable of adequate defense and self-restraint no longer needs these protections.
Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 30 décembre 2013 - 02:20 .
Fast Jimmy wrote...
Does it provide tons of safeguards and structure to keep the world at large safe? Yes. Absolutely.
eluvianix wrote...
No, the point of the post was to show that by forcing the Gallows conflict, Anders caused quite a few innocent deaths, both mages and nonmages, caught in the crossfire.Lord Raijin wrote...
@MisterJB Congratulations! You just showed just how brutal the Templar's are. Look how they're murdering the innocent mages of the Circle. Great job exposing your Templar's true form.
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