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[lil yonce]

The old thread was shut down. Please follow site rules in this one. Saying there can be no compromise is spam.

What does a compromise between mages and templars entail?

The fundamental flaw I see with circles as they work now, is that templars have too great a presence in them, and too much authority over their operation.

WoT says templar power has extended, in practice, to their selecting First Enchanters, yet, under the Nevarran Accord, the circle is supposed to be autonomous.

This is unacceptable.

Consequently, I suggest templar presence in circles be restricted to rotating patrols.

They should not make home in a circle. The Knight-Commander should have no office in circle buildings. Templar quarters or templar-only sections of the circle should not exist IMO. Compounds and outposts on circle grounds to house, train, and facilitate templar guard duties should mark the extent of their involvement in daily circle operation.

The templars must be busted down to the guards they were meant to be.

Magic use and it monitorization, particularly outside circles, must be regulated through joint convention by treaty. The Chantry should control still the lyrium supply, though the circle should be able to purchase lyrium as needed, first complying with regulation and law on the matter.

All other civil, criminal, and commerical matters concerning mages are handled by the circles.

Can this work? What problems do you see with it? And what kind of compromise do you like?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 29 décembre 2013 - 06:52 .

[Hellion Rex]

In regards to your post, Youth, how do you propose Annulments and Tranquility be dealt with?

And in regards to my own views on what we need compromise for, I believe IMO that the primary issue is that there must be a better check to the Templar Order, to better prevent abuses in the Circles.

Modifié par eluvianix, 28 décembre 2013 - 09:54 .

[Nightdragon8]

hmm like most of it, would still feel like a jail cause of the imcampent outside.

Now what about unsupervised leave of the circle...

What I was thinking was some sort of check in staions around Theadas, that they go in, check in say "I'm here" sort of like a passport type deal. That is completely sepeart from the government as to prevent magenapping from rulers.

So while it will still be a restriction of a sort it would be a ton more freedom than they already have.

[SgtSteel91]

Brace yourselves

Mage/Templar debate is coming

I think demonic possession needs to be better understood such that methods can be developed to prevent a mage from being possessed at any time or 'hidden' from demons in the Fade. That seems to be the crux of why some people want mages removed from normal society, as well as mages having the potential to rain fire down on anyone.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 28 décembre 2013 - 09:58 .

[Gileadan]

- Templar quarters should be outside the mage quarters.
- Templars may only enter the mage quarters at the request of the mages
- Templars stop any vaguely abomination or demon-like thing from exiting the premises
- Templars have no authority about what happens inside the mage quarters

It should be up to any given mage community and their assigned templars to discuss the time the templars have to wait when they get no more life signs from inside and may enter by force to clear out whatever critters overran the place. If they receive a request for help, they will assist immediately, of course.

[Vandicus]

Youth4Ever wrote...

The old thread was shut down. Please follow site rules in this one. Saying there can be no compromise is spam.

What does a compromise between mages and templars entail?

The fundamental flaw I see with circles as they work now, is that templars have too great a presence in them and too much authority over their operation. WoT says templar power has extended, in practice, to their selecting First Enchanters, yet, under the Nevarran Accord, the circle is supposed to be autonomous. This is unacceptable. Consequently, I suggest templar presence in circles be restricted to rotating patrols.

They should not make home in a circle. The Knight-Commander should have no office in circle buildings. Templar quarters or templar-only sections of the circle should not exist IMO. Compounds and outposts on circle grounds to house, train, and facilitate templar guard duties should mark the extent of their involvement in daily circle operation. The templars must be busted down to the guards they were meant to be.

Magic use and it monitorization, particularly outside circles, must be regulated through joint convention by treaty. The Chantry should control still the lyrium supply, though the circle should be able to purchase lyrium as needed, first complying with regulation and law on the matter. All other civil, criminal, and commerical matters concerning mages are handled by the circles.

Can this work? What problems do you see with it? And what kind of compromise do you like?

I don't think relocating ALL of the templars away from the potential Ground Zero of an abomination massacre is the way to go. Even as a mage, I'd definitely like at least a few handy. However it doesn't seem necessary(nor practical) to have the majority or the headquarters of local templars be in the Circle.
I do believe the First Enchanter should be selected by the templars, but should given plenty of free reign in his administration. We don't exactly want an Uldred or Quentin to be First Enchanter, but there's little benefit to having a fake "First Enchanter" position that is only used as a puppet. Also, I'd have the position be rotated every 4-5 years in case there are fundamental problems in between the Order and the Circle(this also helps mitigate any potential cooperation based corruption between the First Enchanter and Knight Commander, should they conspire to abuse their power).

The relation between mages, templars, and the rest of the world should be made openly symbiotic.

"Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him." Is there a more clear suggestion for public charity through magic than that?

To make their relationships symbiotic, have templars get their funding through the production of magic goods made by the Circle. Make it clear to the templars that their ability to rise above their original stations(serfs in some cases) is due to the prosperity provided through magic crafting, and make it clear to both sides that templars are there to help and protect mages from themselves as much as other people. Encourage friendly and amicable relationships between members of both parties. Implement greater travel privileges and the like for mages accompanied by a templar(which is made substantially less risky and more acceptable to both sides if they're close friends). Have templars be more active in protecting their local community, especially in conjunction with mages, who can at least provide healing services.

My last major suggestion would be to allow clear lines of communication between mages and templars of all ranks to their superiors. It seems one of the major problems in the Circles has been that rules have been violated, but no one has been able to contact someone powerful enough to punish the culprits. Fixing this would go a long way towards preventing abuse.

Modifié par Vandicus, 28 décembre 2013 - 10:05 .

[lil yonce]

eluvianix wrote...
In regards to your post, Youth, how do you propose Annulments and Tranquility be dealt with?

I won't eliminate the Right of Annulment or the Rite of Tranquility - invoking them will be far more difficult, however.

A Knight-Commander cannot simply decide its necessary and request it.

That's one issue the Kirkwall annulment had. Cullen didn't believe it necessary - he did not believe the danger great enough to call it down - but Meredith did - and there was no procedure to deny her.

What's unclear is what would be enough - that has to be hashed out in negotations.

Looking at the twenty times its been invoked in history, and achieving consensus on when it hasn't been unavoidable and when it has is a good place to start.

It should only be used as a last resort when a circle is truly lost, thus it should be invoked only when a set of conditions are met that warrant the use of an annulment, and after an exhaustive list of other measures, agreed to by all parties, can be or have been reasonably tried.

And I want more testing before the Harrowing is conducted.

Forcing apprentices from bed in the dark of night, blindsiding them with "testing" that - on the spot - decides their continued existence in this world or their becoming an abomination, is nowhere near the best method to ensure a mage is prepared to resist temptation.

Complementary testing to contemplate in all circles: summoning a lesser demon [either with magic, and aided by a spirit medium when necessary, or by use of a summoning circle] and constraining it with a binding circle, where still it can cajole and battle apprentices.

Distinctions from the Harrowing-- the apprentice's mental capacity and conditioning, stability, awareness, skills, battle tactics, and overall arcane knowledge can be evaluated by senior enchanters. Senior mages and templars who oversee the trial will intervene should an apprentice be at risk of failure. The harrowing should later be conducted. Should an apprentice fail consecutively in lesser testings, the rite of tranquility should be seriously considered.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 30 décembre 2013 - 07:26 .

[lil yonce]

Nightdragon8 wrote...
hmm like most of it, would still feel like a jail cause of the imcampent outside.

Some oversight is going to be a way of life. And I want to build up circle campuses to make them much more like homes.

Now what about unsupervised leave of the circle...

Does not exist. Templars will accompany mages on trips outside circle borders.

What I was thinking was some sort of check in staions around Theadas, that they go in, check in say "I'm here" sort of like a passport type deal. That is completely sepeart from the government as to prevent magenapping from rulers. So while it will still be a restriction of a sort it would be a ton more freedom than they already have.

Maybe in time. I don't think anyone in Thedas trust mages enough to let them do that now, however. Public opinion is too low.

Mages would need a greater presence in communities to permit their travel even over short distances alone IMO.

Right now, most of their travel is going to be from their circle, to their destination - with only a few necessary stops in between - and back.

If mages had a permanent presence in say Ghislain, maybe I don't have much problem with their traveling to Churneau and back without templar escort.

Their status in the circle - enchanter, senior enchanter, harrowed mage, lowly apprentice - would also dictate those sorts of freedoms.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 28 décembre 2013 - 11:05 .

[MisterJB]

(Grrr, I had a big ass post and this website just decided to delete it)

By reducing the active role of Templars within the Circle, you compromise their ability to protect the normal people, not just from attacks upon their physical security but also from attacks upon their independence and freedom.
You said it yourself that you wish for the Circle to have free reign in how they hand commercial matters. However, money is power and it is not simply obvious but also inevitable that the mages would use the advantages granted by magic to dominate the infrastructure of society which would destroy the independence of non-mages who would then come to rely upon mages just like how we, in modern society, rely upon technology. It would be return of Tevinter in everything but name; non-mages would become second class citizens that would only be employed to do the tasks mages would have no interest in performing.
Plus, this would also compromise the ability of Templars to police mages because their salaries would be paid by mages and thus, their interests would align with those of the mages rather than those of the people of Thedas.
And, of course, there is always the possibltiy of mages stockpiling lyrium in preparation for an open conflict. Plus, if there is a Abominatio outbreak, not having Templars present in the Circles would increase the number of casualties.

I would not be willing to compromise on these terms.

Modifié par MisterJB, 28 décembre 2013 - 10:17 .

[The Elder King]

eluvianix wrote...

And in regards to my own views on what we need compromise for, I believe IMO that the primary issue is that there must be a better check to the Templar Order, to better prevent abuses in the Circles.

Agreed. The Seekers failed spectacularly in this job, though if Lambert was the lord seeker back in DA2 I understand an the didn't send anyone to Kirkwall.

[lil yonce]

MisterJB wrote...
(Grrr, I had a big ass post and this website just decided to delete it)

Hehe. I had nothing to do with that. I swear. 

By reducing the active role of Templars within the Circle, you compromise their ability to protect the normal people, not just from attacks upon their physical security but also from attacks upon their independence and freedom.

And too great a templar presence in circles infringes upon mage civil liberty - liberty they are guaranteed under the Nevarran Accord. If that compact is to be renewed, I expect an adequate degree of autonomy.

You said it yourself that you wish for the Circle to have free reign in how they hand commercial matters.

Yes. The circles need more coin to build up their operations. To conduct research. To renovate. To add more buidlings. To buy land for their use. To buy more food. To support more residents that would result from mage marriage, mage relatives living on circle grounds, and the allowance of mundane scholars and their familes on site. The circle will require more coin than they now possess.

Currently, they struggle to afford the lyrium necessary to harrow apprentices. All are not even premitted a chance at the test. Deemed to weak? Too bad. That's one of many issues that can be helped with coin.

However, money is power and it is not simply obvious but also inevitable that the mages would use the advantages granted by magic to dominate the infrastructure of society which would destroy the independence of non-mages who would then come to rely upon mages just like how we, in modern society, rely upon technology. It would be return of Tevinter in everything but name; non-mages would become second class citizens that would only be employed to do the tasks mages would have no interest in performing.

As all magic use would be regulated in my system, all of it, particularly outside circles, I think you overstate the circle's ability to hijack the world economy.

And circle accounts would be open to the public. All their assets must be public knowledge, the books checked for accuracy, follow ups on all property, coin, etc conducted.

The circle cannot be permited to hold assets in excess without facing penalty-- stiff taxes, punishment, cutting lyrium, etc.

And if magic is useful - its useful.

Come up with tech that is more efficient than or cheaper than magic and run the circle out of business if you dislike relying on it.

Plus, this would also compromise the ability of Templars to police mages because their salaries would be paid by mages and thus, their interests would align with those of the mages rather than those of the people of Thedas.

Untrue. I don't want the circle to pay templars.

The circle will pay interest to the chantry for extra lyrium bought - and while I suggest that coin be used to pay the templar order - its up to the Chantry to decide where that money is used. They are required to pay the templars however its done.

And the circle does not pay the templars now, why would they pay them in the future?

And, of course, there is always the possibltiy of mages stockpiling lyrium in preparation for an open conflict. Plus, if there is a Abominatio outbreak, not having Templars present in the Circles would increase the number of casualties.

Taxes and interest on all extra lyrium can help prevent a stockpile.

And I'm willing to risk casualties to ensure circle autonomy from the templars.

All templars realize the danger of the job they're doing - and mages live their lives understanding of the danger abominations pose.

I would not be willing to compromise on these terms.

What about now?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 28 décembre 2013 - 11:35 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

Gileadan wrote...

- Templar quarters should be outside the mage quarters.
- Templars may only enter the mage quarters at the request of the mages
- Templars stop any vaguely abomination or demon-like thing from exiting the premises
- Templars have no authority about what happens inside the mage quarters

It should be up to any given mage community and their assigned templars to discuss the time the templars have to wait when they get no more life signs from inside and may enter by force to clear out whatever critters overran the place. If they receive a request for help, they will assist immediately, of course.

If templars can't enter then how would they stop an abomination? When a few mage survivors come running out? That's if they can even escape. Also who'd spot the blood mages? Sure there are some mages who would rat out their friend but others wouldn't. Mages need some form of surveillance otherwise things get out of hand and always have in the case of the Circle Tower and Kirkwall.

[Vandicus]

Allowing the mages to run businesses themselves would violate their alleged neutrality and get nobles all in a tiff. Currently, everything runs through the Chantry, which is practically a nation unto itself and something that only kings or emperors might dare oppose. Rightfully, most mages are actually serfs, and thus owe a great portion of their income to their respective lords. If mages were allowed to leave their lands of origin, owe no taxes nor service to their lord, and receive all the benefits and protections currently afforded to them, they'd be a privileged class. As it has stood already, they were far better off than serfs. If you remove people's impressions of them as beholden to the Chantry, they no longer appear to be so neutral and instead appear to be an independent entity. The nobles would attempt to collect their dues in both taxes and military service.

[dragonflight288]

I think one of the largest issues overall that stands between the compromise of mage and templar/chantry is the lack of trust and history on both sides. Many in the Chantry and the Templars/Seekers look at mages and all they can see is Tevinter, and are so utterly incapable of seeing beyond that that the thought of any freedoms given to mages they would resist with every fiber of their beings, whereas many mages will take one look at a Templar or a Seeker and they'll remember Meredith or Lambert, and how much power they had over mages and their rights, as well as how little rights they actually did have, even when guaranteed such by the Divine as it'll mean nothing if the guy with the swords disagrees.

Before any negotiations on the little details can begin, I think both sides need to agree on a single long-term goal that they both can work towards. Do they seek to simply contain abominations and blood mages or do they actually wish to advance their knowledge to better protect themselves from demons or how best to serve their countries?

Many templars would see only containments measures as necessary, and many mages don't want to be contained. In any negotiation or transaction, in order to get something, you ought to give up something of roughly equal value.

[lil yonce]

Vandicus wrote...
Allowing the mages to run businesses themselves would violate their alleged neutrality and get nobles all in a tiff.

The circle has businesses now.

You can shop at quite a few in the Gallows, and the Wonders of Thedas is open to the public in Denerim.

And if nobles and merchants benefit from magic and mage operations, they won't say no to a little magic in their politics.

Currently, everything runs through the Chantry, which is practically a nation unto itself and something that only kings or emperors might dare oppose. Rightfully, most mages are actually serfs, and thus owe a great portion of their income to their respective lords. If mages were allowed to leave their lands of origin, owe no taxes nor service to their lord, and receive all the benefits and protections currently afforded to them, they'd be a privileged class. As it has stood already, they were far better off than serfs. If you remove people's impressions of them as beholden to the Chantry, they no longer appear to be so neutral and instead appear to be an independent entity. The nobles would attempt to collect their dues in both taxes and military service.

Tough sledding for the peasants. Don't hate on someone else's revolution.

And I'm willing to pay tribute to nations circle resides in, and even cut the nobility in on profitable operations, out of necessity if nothing else, but that's it. They get no more, and screw them if they think they're entitled to more.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 28 décembre 2013 - 11:32 .

[dragonflight288]

And I'm willing to pay tribute to nations circle resides in, and even cut the nobility in on profitable operations, out of necessity if nothing else, but that's it. They get no more, and screw them if they think they're entitled to more.

I wouldn't even go this far. I would pay tribute only to the crown that houses the Circle, not the nobility itself, otherwise every count, Duke, Arl, Teyrn, and so on will want in.

[lil yonce]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And I'm willing to pay tribute to nations circle resides in, and even cut the nobility in on profitable operations, out of necessity if nothing else, but that's it. They get no more, and screw them if they think they're entitled to more.

I wouldn't even go this far. I would pay tribute only to the crown that houses the Circle, not the nobility itself, otherwise every count, Duke, Arl, Teyrn, and so on will want in.

That's what I mean. Only the crown will receive tribute.

I'm counting on the nobility for business, so I'm willing to give them a share in some operations, only by necessity, but it works out in magi favor, I think.

Mages can't foot the bill for large mine development and operation themselves in Nevarra, for example, so the nobility can invest - that sort of thing. After that, they get nothing. Look elsewhere for your taxes and soldiers.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 30 décembre 2013 - 07:28 .

[Fortlowe]

Tranquil Templars. They would never abuse their power, abandon their posts, hesitate or be hasty. Choosing to be made tranquil may then be less shaming.

[dragonflight288]

Fortlowe wrote...

Tranquil Templars. They would never abuse their power, abandon their posts, hesitate or be hasty. Choosing to be made tranquil may then be less shaming.

Tranquil have no power to abuse.

[MisterJB]

Youth4Ever wrote...
And too great a templar presence in circles infringes upon mage civil liberty. Liberty they are guaranteed under the Nevarran Accord. If that compact is to be renewed, I expect an adequate degree of autonomy.

The Nevarran Accord not only places the Templars on equal ground with elder mages, it also presents the Circle as a closed society; closed societies don't usually conduct business with others.
If that is your wish, be my guest. Otherwise, I expect an adequate degree of control.

Yes. The circles need more coin to build up their operations. To conduct research. To renovate. To add more buidlings. To buy land for their use. To buy more food. To support more residents that would result from mage marriage, mage relatives living on circle grounds, and the allowance of mundane scholars and their familes on site. The circle will require more coin than they now possess.

Currently, they struggle to afford the lyrium necessary to harrow apprentices. All are not even premitted a chance at the test. Deemed to weak? Too bad. That's one of many issues that can be helped with coin.

That sounds suspiciously like a city capable of challeging the dominion of already extablished ones.
I recognize that, perhaps, there might be a few more basic necessities that could be better provided but that is where the line should be drawn.

As all magic use would be regulated in my system, all of it, particularly outside circles, I think you overstate the circle's ability to hijack the world economy.

And circle accounts would be open to the public. All their assets must be public knowledge, the books checked for accuracy, follow ups on all property, coin, etc conducted.

The circle cannot be permited to hold assets in excess without facing penalty-- stiff taxes, punishment, cutting lyrium, etc.

And if magic is useful - its useful.

Come up with tech that is more efficient than or cheaper than magic and run the circle out of business if you dislike relying on it.

You and I both know how useless the last suggestion was. People are short-sigthed and will not search for better ways of doing things when there is an already existing one.
Also, telling me to accept the usefulness of magic is rather similar to telling tevinter slaves to accep the superiority of the magisters. Such an argument is not very compelling.

My faith in the usefulness of these regulamentations is rather short considering how the powerful (nobles and merchants) will have little interest in enforcing them if ignoring them will earn them coin; which I am sure it will, can you say importing cheaper workers?
But, fine, let's hear these regulamentations. I already know that vetoing projects that do not serve to attend to basic necessities is not included.

Untrue. I don't want the circle to pay templars.

The circle will pay interest to the chantry for extra lyrium bought - and while I suggest that coin be used to pay the templar order - its up to the Chantry to decide where that money is used. They are required to pay the templars however its done.

And the circle does not pay the templars now, why would they pay them in the future?

It's called a bribe.

Taxes and interest on all extra lyrium can help prevent a stockpile

Taxes that I am sure they will have no trouble affording. It's better to prevent extra lyrium to be found in mage's hand in the first place.
Is there a batch of ten new apprentices to take the Harrowing? Fine, you will receive the precise amount required and not a pound more. 

And I'm willing to risk casualties to ensure circle autonomy from the templars.

All templars realize the danger of the job they're doing - and mages live their lives understanding of the danger abominations pose.

And I'm not. What could be one or two Abominations could suddenly become a hundred because there weren't Templars there.

What about now?

Nothing really changed.

[Dave of Canada]

I mentioned this in the previous thread.

Community built surrounding the tower which allows families to reside within, both Templar and Mages. Mage families have to give up ownership of their properties to the Chantry to be allowed within, this would prevent people from abusing the system and trying to have mage children for easy lives and gains the Chantry some extra property and financing for the new people they have to take care of.

By co-existing with Templar families, both sides would grow closer as a community and would foster some cross-communication. However, multiple Templar will supervise mages at all times when they come into contact with their parents to prevent illegal communications and/or transferring of goods or the fact that Templar might have mage sympathies and allow the parents to do something.

All families in the community knows they've got to play their part in the role of the Circle, they do food preparation / knitting and what say you in exchange for the Chantry sheltering and feeding them. They're also warned that if the situation goes bad and an apostate or abomination escapes, they're the first in the line of fire.

Meanwhile the Circles remain identical to the system in place prior to the war.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 28 décembre 2013 - 11:40 .

[dragonflight288]

Youth4Ever wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

And I'm willing to pay tribute to nations circle resides in, and even cut the nobility in on profitable operations, out of necessity if nothing else, but that's it. They get no more, and screw them if they think they're entitled to more.

I wouldn't even go this far. I would pay tribute only to the crown that houses the Circle, not the nobility itself, otherwise every count, Duke, Arl, Teyrn, and so on will want in.

That's what I mean. Only the crown will receive tribute.

I'm counting on the nobility for business, so I'm willing to give them a share in some operations, only by necessity, but it works out in magi favor, I think.

Mages can't foot the bill for large mine development and operation themselves in Nevarra, for example, so the nobility can invest - that sort of thing. After that, they get nothing. Look elsewhere for your taxes and soldiers.

Ah, then you and I are likeminded on that.

[MisterJB]

Youth4Ever wrote...
And if nobles and merchants benefit from magic and mage operations, they won't say no to a little magic in their politics.

I am well aware of how greed and short-sigthedness would work in your favor.

Tough sledding for the peasants. Don't hate on someone else's revolution.

[Fortlowe]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Fortlowe wrote...

Tranquil Templars. They would never abuse their power, abandon their posts, hesitate or be hasty. Choosing to be made tranquil may then be less shaming.

Tranquil have no power to abuse.

I think you maybe be misunderstanding. When I mean abusing power, I'm not talking about magic. I'm talking about authority.

[Toasted Llama]

Although I fully support this thread, I fear it is going to get taken down just like the other one when the radical pro-mages or pro-templars barge in. Which they most likely are going to.

Anyway, I THINK, that at some point, either there needs to be a new order to protect/help the Circles or that there needs to be some sort of counter measure that mages have access to, should the templars abuse their power again.

Though the latter would again lead a snowball effect :\\

I'm thinking of Trias Politica... No idea how to implement that in the Circles though...