203 réponses à ce sujet

[Fortlowe]

Perhaps an order of Tranquil Templars?

[MisterJB]

I have my own suggestion:

Mages would extablish their own villages that would fall under the authority of the king of the nation they reside in but would be independent from nobles. The mages would understand that they would be forbidden from becoming involved in industry; which would adress the possiblity of mages becoming wealthy enough to do anything they wish; and that their sole duty would be acting as both mercenary units as well as the standing armies of the larger countries they reside in.

These villages would answer to independant contracts; and they would be accompanied by Templars; who would be mantained by either the kings or the Chantry; just in case; and they would be financed by their kings; which means that, if a village gets unruly, the kings can, quite simply, starve them out by ceasing the funds but also means that the kings have an interest in keeping them functional should a war break out; and, in the eventuality of a war, it would be the mages who would have the duty to fight to defend the nation and, again, they would be accompanied by the Templars.
It would be forbidden for mages and non-mages to live amongst each other. But within the villages, the mages would be free to extablish what laws and rule they wish so long as they obey the most fundamental ones that apply to all villages such as, for example, the prohibition of any form of industry.

Of course, I can already see several problems with this system; such as the mages having the incentive to cause conflict in order for them to maintain their importance; but it might be a start.

[Veruin]

Fortlowe wrote...

Perhaps an order of Tranquil Templars?

Can you even make non mages tranquil?  If so, is it even the same method as you do for mages?

[Fortlowe]

Veruin wrote...

Fortlowe wrote...

Perhaps an order of Tranquil Templars?

Can you even make non mages tranquil?  If so, is it even the same method as you do for mages?

I would imagine so, but why not make tranquil mages Templars as well?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

A lot of interesting suggestions in here. I like it.

@Turning Templars Tranquil: Since all Tranquilizing someone is is that you sever their connection to the Fade, it should work on all people except Dwarves.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 29 décembre 2013 - 12:09 .

[Treacherous J Slither]

The only compromise i'm willing to accept is one in which the Circle is simply a school where mages learn how to develop and control their powers. Where they are taught how to use their abilities to benefit society as healers, teachers, builders, manufacturers, the arts etc. Mundanes can also attend to gain a better understanding of magic and the Fade and possibly even learn some antimagic spells like the Templars. The students and staff are free to come and go as they please. The Harrowing should be a test that every student is taught to prepare for. No secrets. Every student is taught how to fend off and defeat demons. The weak and the strong alike. All schools of magic are available for learning. Even blood magic if a student chooses to study it. Any country or organization with the means should be able to set up a magic school.

The Templars should be a police force made up of anyone brave enough to join. Mage and mundane alike. Blood magic should not be punishable by death. Only mages accused and convicted of a crime recieve punishment. Lyrium is no longer mandatory for use. The Templars don't have to be the sole antimagic force around. Any country should be able to set up a similar force in order to protect it's people.

No more forced tranquility. It should be the choice of the individual mage themselves only. No more annulments. The occurrence must be investigated. The magic defense force only kills when attacked or to save the life of someone in danger from a threat. Everyone involved is captured alive if possible and tested to see if they are possessed.

The way things are currently is wrong IMO. The way that I suggest would be beneficial to everyone and is the only way to move forward.

[billy the squid]

Youth4Ever wrote...

The old thread was shut down. Please follow site rules in this one. Saying there can be no compromise is spam.

There can be no compromise, the Mages need to be burnt.


Edited: removed spam... literally. ~Mod05

Modifié par BioWareMod05, 29 décembre 2013 - 01:50 .

[lil yonce]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...
The Nevarran Accord not only places the Templars on equal ground with elder mages,[/quote]And where is that stated? WoT says the circle is autonomous under the Nevarran Accord.

[quote]it also presents the Circle as a closed society; closed societies don't usually conduct business with others.
If that is your wish, be my guest. Otherwise, I expect an adequate degree of control.[/quote]???

Closed society? No. There is no Isolationist mentality here.

The circle's lifeblood will be commerce, and thus interaction with those outside circle borders is a necessity.

[quote]That sounds suspiciously like a city capable of challeging the dominion of already extablished ones.
I recognize that, perhaps, there might be a few more basic necessities that could be better provided but that is where the line should be drawn.[/quote]Does a university campus challenge the authority of the city it resides in?

[quote]You and I both know how useless the last suggestion was. People are short-sigthed and will not search for better ways of doing things when there is an already existing one.[/quote]???

That is an asinine statement for obvious reasons. Asinine - asi[ten] - asi[eleven] - asi[twelve].

Why is there research into renewable energy if non-renewable energy exists by this logic?

Why then are scientists researching solar power, wind power, tidal, electric, etc. while conventional oil and wood fuel is still around?

[quote]Also, telling me to accept the usefulness of magic is rather similar to telling tevinter slaves to accept the superiority of the magisters. Such an argument is not very compelling.[/quote]???

. Asinine.

"Magic is useful." =/= "Accept slavery."

Again - come up with tech more efficient or cheaper than magic.

Not to hard to do because magic - as a unique commodity, and the circle's sole source of income - will not be cheap in my system.

Price will motivate the market if nothing else.

[quote]My faith in the usefulness of these regulamentations is rather short considering how the powerful (nobles and merchants) will have little interest in enforcing them if ignoring them will earn them coin; which I am sure it will, can you say importing cheaper workers?[/quote]I'm not counting on the nobility to enforce anything. That isn't their role. They have no role in the circle.

[quote]But, fine, let's hear these regulamentations. I already know that vetoing projects that do not serve to attend to basic necessities is not included.[/quote]If a circle can't meet the conditions necessary to perform magic outside the circle, they can't do it.

Being current on taxes, licenses is a factor. Perhaps even those required by national governments, associations, and guilds as a requirement.

Having approval from joint chantry-circle magic use committees for projects of great note beyond circle borders is a requirement.

Buying up assets and owning for long periods properites outside the main towers will be regulated and looked at closely for abuse in oversight.

An excess of assets will be heavily taxed.

No militant magic unless contracted through the Chantry to a king - the circle will receive compensation, however, and not the Chantry.

These restrictions among possible others.

[quote]It's called a bribe.[/quote]The templars do nothing but watch for demons, abominations, and defend against the occasional rogue circle mage attack.

They have no jurisdiction over anything else - they moniter nothing else.

Is the circle going to bribe the templars to ignore an abomination ravaging the campus?

[quote]Taxes that I am sure they will have no trouble affording. It's better to prevent extra lyrium to be found in mage's hand in the first place.[/quote]How wealthy do you think they can become?

Richer than the crown?

Perhaps, but it will cost them - luxury taxes are no joke.

And they will be required to sell off excess assets.

[quote]Is there a batch of ten new apprentices to take the Harrowing? Fine, you will receive the precise amount required and not a pound more. [/quote]No. The circle decides what it needs.

The templars don't have much clue about magics actual workings, and thus can't regulate it alone.

[quote]And I'm not. What could be one or two Abominations could suddenly become a hundred because there weren't Templars there.[/quote]Have the templars outside ready for an army of one-hundred if necessary then. 

A rotating patrol guard will be present in circles at all times to respond to emergencies - but beyond that - no templars.

The overbearing templar presence is the core issue of the current system's ills.

Their influence must be limited and the only way to ensure it is, is to limit their presence in circles altogether.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 30 décembre 2013 - 07:29 .

[Iron Fist]

Some conflicts ebb and flow, never truly ending. This conflict seems to be one of them. I don't think a lasting compromise is possible.

Modifié par MevenSelas, 29 décembre 2013 - 12:39 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Fortlowe wrote...

Veruin wrote...

Fortlowe wrote...

Perhaps an order of Tranquil Templars?

Can you even make non mages tranquil?  If so, is it even the same method as you do for mages?

I would imagine so, but why not make tranquil mages Templars as well?

Tranquil cannot learn the Templar abilities. So the idea of Tranquil Templars won't work.

[lil yonce]

MisterJB wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...
And if nobles and merchants benefit from magic and mage operations, they won't say no to a little magic in their politics.

I am well aware of how greed and short-sigthedness would work in your favor.

First - you're taking this statement out of its proper context.

I provide an example to dragonflight of what I mean concerning noblity benefit.

Second - the circle will need to secure itself a spot at the big boy table to protect its interets - no one will protect circle autonomy for mages as we've seen.

Peasants can't start a revolution of their own?

They can't overthrow an oppressive noblity as has been done in history?

The circle shouldn't maintain a bad arrangement, bad government because the peasantry might feel some kind of way about it - because they might be resentful.

That's just stupid.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 29 décembre 2013 - 12:54 .

[Fortlowe]

What are you referencing, when you say tranquil cannot learn Templar abilities? I don't remember anything that says so.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

The Qunari know how to treat mages, the templars should follow their example & there'd be less trouble.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Fortlowe wrote...

What are you referencing, when you say tranquil cannot learn Templar abilities? I don't remember anything that says so.

Templar abilities are magic. Tranquil cannot cast magic. Hence my statement.

[MisterJB]

Youth4Ever wrote...
Second - the circle will need to secure itself a spot at the big boy table to protect its interets - no one will protect circle autonomy for mages as we've seen.

Ah, but that is where the troubles begin, is it not? It is no longer about mage freedom but about mages having political power. Which, of course, does not work to he benefit of non-mages which is what the Templars seek to secure.

Peasants can't start a revolution of their own?

They can't overthrow an oppressive noblity as has been done in history?

The circle shouldn't maintain a bad arrangement, bad government because the peasantry might feel some kind of way about it - because they might be resentful.

That's just stupid.

I was more referring to how the willigness to throw the peasants under the bus harms any chance of compromise.
But sure, peasants can revolt against the nobles. But as soon as magic has completed its takeover of the infrastructure, expecting the people to revolt against the mages will be as likely as expecting us to revolt against electricity. Then, there could be a thousand revolutions but the problems would remains and the mages along with them.

[Vandicus]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
Allowing the mages to run businesses themselves would violate their alleged neutrality and get nobles all in a tiff.

The circle has businesses now.

You can shop at quite a few in the Gallows, and the Wonders of Thedas is open to the public in Denerim.

And if nobles and merchants benefit from magic and mage operations, they won't say no to a little magic in their politics.

Currently, everything runs through the Chantry, which is practically a nation unto itself and something that only kings or emperors might dare oppose. Rightfully, most mages are actually serfs, and thus owe a great portion of their income to their respective lords. If mages were allowed to leave their lands of origin, owe no taxes nor service to their lord, and receive all the benefits and protections currently afforded to them, they'd be a privileged class. As it has stood already, they were far better off than serfs. If you remove people's impressions of them as beholden to the Chantry, they no longer appear to be so neutral and instead appear to be an independent entity. The nobles would attempt to collect their dues in both taxes and military service.

Tough sledding for the peasants. Don't hate on someone else's revolution.

And I'm willing to pay tribute to nations circle resides in, and even cut the nobility in on profitable operations, out of necessity if nothing else, but that's it. They get no more, and screw them if they think they're entitled to more.

Those Circle businesses fund a Chantry operated Circle. They enjoy the privilege of being representatives of the Chantry.

Mages are peasants(with the exception of the occasional Connor).

Lets put it another way. There's a Circle in Orlais. They assemble a bunch of wealth. As in the original suggestion, there are no templars on the presmises. The Emperor of Orlais chooses to take all that wealth as is his just due, not only are the peasants residing in the tower not paying taxes, they do not answer the draft and are therefore traitors. The Emperor of Orlais attacks the Circle. Since the Chantry has no templars in the Circle, they suffer no casualties. The Orlesians have a more than adequate defence to any Chantry objections. After all, they were only administering punishment to the fullest extent of the law upon Orlesian citizens, and moreover, no representatives of the Chantry were harmed in the process.

The second mages become anything besides part of the Chantry, they lose any claims to neutrality. In terms of the Chantry attempting to chastise any nations after the fact, should that nation attack/slaughter/imprison/enslave mages, there is no political grounding for them to stand on. Mages would not be members of the Chantry, and they would also not be the charges/wards of the Chantry as they are now. They would be subjects of the respective countries and fiefs they were born in, and any interference by the Chantry would be direct interference in the country's internal politics(thus sacrificing the Chantry's own neutrality, which I doubt they'd do for a handful of peasants).

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...
Second - the circle will need to secure itself a spot at the big boy table to protect its interets - no one will protect circle autonomy for mages as we've seen.

Ah, but that is where the troubles begin, is it not? It is no longer about mage freedom but about mages having political power. Which, of course, does not work to he benefit of non-mages which is what the Templars seek to secure.

Mages gaining a small amount of political power to prevent getting run over during negotiations will not necessarily compromise nonmages.

Modifié par eluvianix, 29 décembre 2013 - 01:06 .

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...
Second - the circle will need to secure itself a spot at the big boy table to protect its interets - no one will protect circle autonomy for mages as we've seen.

Ah, but that is where the troubles begin, is it not? It is no longer about mage freedom but about mages having political power. Which, of course, does not work to he benefit of non-mages which is what the Templars seek to secure.

Mages gaining a small amount of political power to prevent getting run over during negotiations will not necessarily compromise nonmages.

Small amount? Try "more powerful than the king and church combined".

Modifié par MisterJB, 29 décembre 2013 - 01:09 .

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...
Second - the circle will need to secure itself a spot at the big boy table to protect its interets - no one will protect circle autonomy for mages as we've seen.

Ah, but that is where the troubles begin, is it not? It is no longer about mage freedom but about mages having political power. Which, of course, does not work to he benefit of non-mages which is what the Templars seek to secure.

Mages gaining a small amount of political power to prevent getting run over during negotiations will not necessarily compromise nonmages.

Small amount? Try "more powerful than the king and chantry combined".

Um, who said that they had to gain that much autonomy and political might?

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...
Um, who said that they had to gain that much autonomy and political might?

When have groups ever stopped at the bare necessities? Do you see people going "You know, I think I'm wealthy enough, I should stop."?
Look at the merchant princes of Antiva and their relations with the royal family and there is the best that can be expected.
At worst, look to the alienages.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Um, who said that they had to gain that much autonomy and political might?

When have groups ever stopped at the bare necessities? Do you see people going "You know, I think I'm wealthy enough, I should stop."?
Look at the merchant princes of Antiva and their relations with the royal family and there is the best that can be expected.
At worst, look to the alienages.

If it gets that bad, you have templars to step in and fix the problem. But trying to make sure that they don't get ****ed over in negotiations doesn't mean that all mages are suddenly turn into megalomaniacs.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Um, who said that they had to gain that much autonomy and political might?

When have groups ever stopped at the bare necessities? Do you see people going "You know, I think I'm wealthy enough, I should stop."?
Look at the merchant princes of Antiva and their relations with the royal family and there is the best that can be expected.
At worst, look to the alienages.

If it gets that bad, you have templars to step in and fix the problem. But trying to make sure that they don't get ****ed over in negotiations doesn't mean that all mages are suddenly turn into megalomaniacs.

It's not megalomania, everyone is like that. Why don't you try telling the police that there is too much economical inequality and that they should step in and do something about those supercorporations?
If it works, I'll rethink my stance.

[Vandicus]

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Um, who said that they had to gain that much autonomy and political might?

When have groups ever stopped at the bare necessities? Do you see people going "You know, I think I'm wealthy enough, I should stop."?
Look at the merchant princes of Antiva and their relations with the royal family and there is the best that can be expected.
At worst, look to the alienages.

If it gets that bad, you have templars to step in and fix the problem. But trying to make sure that they don't get ****ed over in negotiations doesn't mean that all mages are suddenly turn into megalomaniacs.

Well what kind of poltiical power and how much would we be giving them(not to mention the method of how)?

Their greatest asset previously has been that they were under the protection of the Chantry. That offered them protection equivalent to that of having their own nation when dealing with the majority of Thedas. I'm not quite sure how you'd match that kind of protection without forming or ruling a country of somehow. Well I suppose the Inquisition. But that's Bioware's plot device for allowing us to mess with Thedas.

[MisterJB]

Mages should be allowed to partake in industry that is exclusive to them; such as selling enchanted items; and end it there. No mages in mines, no mages setting up clinics, etc.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I could see them perhaps getting a Bann or equivalent member for each nation, like how the City Elves do in Ferelden after Origins. That way they have a voice in the nation they live in instead of having to go solely through the Chantry.