203 réponses à ce sujet

[Vandicus]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I could see them perhaps getting a Bann or equivalent member for each nation, like how the City Elves do in Ferelden after Origins. That way they have a voice in the nation they live in instead of having to go solely through the Chantry.

Would that Bann have to offer troops to his liege in times of war? I'm not ruling out the possibility of a political representative of some sort(but then how would they even see that their words are heeded without some sort of force to back it up?), but integrating them into the system of nobility has a whole host of consequences for mages who are not subject to the normal rules of society.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

Mages should be allowed to partake in industry that is exclusive to them; such as selling enchanted items; and end it there. No mages in mines, no mages setting up clinics, etc.

What about in times of war? Would you agree with allowing mages to participate as healers for the army?

[Vandicus]

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Mages should be allowed to partake in industry that is exclusive to them; such as selling enchanted items; and end it there. No mages in mines, no mages setting up clinics, etc.

What about in times of war? Would you agree with allowing mages to participate as healers for the army?

Circle mages previously weren't allowed to participate in wars between any Chantry nations.

[lil yonce]

Those Circle businesses fund a Chantry operated Circle. They enjoy the privilege of being representatives of the Chantry.

And in this system - they are still connected to the Chantry.

The Chantry receives still benefit from the Circle, and has still some measure of control over the Circle - mages going to war, for example.

They help regulate magic use - among other possible roles.

The Circle has not split from the Chantry in this system - it has been reformed.

Mages are peasants(with the exception of the occasional Connor).

Lets put it another way. There's a Circle in Orlais. They assemble a bunch of wealth. As in the original suggestion, there are no templars on the presmises.

That was never the original suggestion. Templars maintain a presence on circle grounds - but not inside circle buildings beyond those necessary to defend in emergencies.

The Emperor of Orlais chooses to take all that wealth as is his just due, not only are the peasants residing in the tower not paying taxes, they do not answer the draft and are therefore traitors. The Emperor of Orlais attacks the Circle. Since the Chantry has no templars in the Circle, they suffer no casualties. The Orlesians have a more than adequate defence to any Chantry objections. After all, they were only administering punishment to the fullest extent of the law upon Orlesian citizens, and moreover, no representatives of the Chantry were harmed in the process.

I believe you missed my post that stated I'm willing to pay tribute to nations - to crowns that is, not noblity.

The second mages become anything besides part of the Chantry, they lose any claims to neutrality.

I require neutrality in war and international conflicts, and I would think neutrality is best in clashing international politics when possible.

And good thing the Circle is still part of the Chantry.

In terms of the Chantry attempting to chastise any nations after the fact, should that nation attack/slaughter/imprison/enslave mages, there is no political grounding for them to stand on. Mages would not be members of the Chantry, and they would also not be the charges/wards of the Chantry as they are now. They would be subjects of the respective countries and fiefs they were born in, and any interference by the Chantry would be direct interference in the country's internal politics(thus sacrificing the Chantry's own neutrality, which I doubt they'd do for a handful of peasants).

Again - this is a reform and not a separation.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Vandicus wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I could see them perhaps getting a Bann or equivalent member for each nation, like how the City Elves do in Ferelden after Origins. That way they have a voice in the nation they live in instead of having to go solely through the Chantry.

Would that Bann have to offer troops to his liege in times of war? I'm not ruling out the possibility of a political representative of some sort(but then how would they even see that their words are heeded without some sort of force to back it up?), but integrating them into the system of nobility has a whole host of consequences for mages who are not subject to the normal rules of society.

The Circle could send damage-specialty mages to aid the crown in defense of the nation, yes. They'd be willing to since it is there home as well. And perhaps Bann is too high a title. I was mostly saying that like the City Elves after Origins, the mages have a voice to express themselves directly to the nation they live in rather than use the Chantry as a middleman.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why do people keep forgetting that healers are supposed to be rare on Thedas?

[lil yonce]

eluvianix wrote...
If it gets that bad, you have templars to step in and fix the problem. But trying to make sure that they don't get ****ed over in negotiations doesn't mean that all mages are suddenly turn into megalomaniacs.

Thank you.

Attempting to cut mages from all politics is untenable.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 29 décembre 2013 - 01:45 .

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why do people keep forgetting that healers are supposed to be rare on Thedas?

Spirit healers are rare, yes. But mages can still learn basic healing spells, can they not? They might just not be at Wynne and Anders's level.

[lil yonce]

MisterJB wrote...

Mages should be allowed to partake in industry that is exclusive to them; such as selling enchanted items; and end it there. No mages in mines, no mages setting up clinics, etc.

Untenable.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Mages should be allowed to partake in industry that is exclusive to them; such as selling enchanted items; and end it there. No mages in mines, no mages setting up clinics, etc.

What about in times of war? Would you agree with allowing mages to participate as healers for the army?

Sure, no issues there.

[Fortlowe]

Tranquil mages can still fold lyrium. And the Templars do not cast spells. They dispel them. In much the same way dwarves do. Who also have no connection to the fade and also fold lyrium.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why do people keep forgetting that healers are supposed to be rare on Thedas?

Spirit healers are rare, yes. But mages can still learn basic healing spells, can they not? They might just not be at Wynne and Anders's level.

The codex says that the Creation School is incredibly hard to learn and master, making its practioners rather rare. Spirit Healers are even more rare, in part because of Templar scrutiny.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Fortlowe wrote...

Tranquil mages can still fold lyrium. And the Templars do not cast spells. They dispel them. In much the same way dwarves do. Who also have no connection to the fade and also fold lyrium.

That is not entirely correct. What Templars do is magic, and they do cast magic. They gain these talents through the consumption of Lyrium.

Dwarves do have a connection to the Fade, but they are deafened to it. This somehow allows them to work Lyrium in much the same way as Tranquil do.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why do people keep forgetting that healers are supposed to be rare on Thedas?

Spirit healers are rare, yes. But mages can still learn basic healing spells, can they not? They might just not be at Wynne and Anders's level.

The codex says that the Creation School is incredibly hard to learn and master, making its practioners rather rare. Spirit Healers are even more rare, in part because of Templar scrutiny.

I'll be damned. Never mind, I stand corrected.

[Vandicus]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Those Circle businesses fund a Chantry operated Circle. They enjoy the privilege of being representatives of the Chantry.

And in this system - they are still connected to the Chantry.

The Chantry receives still benefit from the Circle, and has still some measure of control over the Circle - mages going to war, for example.

They help regulate magic use - among other possible roles.

The Circle has not split from the Chantry in this system - it has been reformed.

Mages are peasants(with the exception of the occasional Connor).

Lets put it another way. There's a Circle in Orlais. They assemble a bunch of wealth. As in the original suggestion, there are no templars on the presmises.

That was never the original suggestion. Templars maintain a presence on circle grounds - but not inside circle buildings beyond those necessary to defend in emergencies.

The Emperor of Orlais chooses to take all that wealth as is his just due, not only are the peasants residing in the tower not paying taxes, they do not answer the draft and are therefore traitors. The Emperor of Orlais attacks the Circle. Since the Chantry has no templars in the Circle, they suffer no casualties. The Orlesians have a more than adequate defence to any Chantry objections. After all, they were only administering punishment to the fullest extent of the law upon Orlesian citizens, and moreover, no representatives of the Chantry were harmed in the process.

I believe you missed my post that stated I'm willing to pay tribute to nations - to crowns that is, not noblity.

The second mages become anything besides part of the Chantry, they lose any claims to neutrality.

I require neutrality in war and international conflicts, and I would think neutrality is best in clashing international politics when possible.

And good thing the Circle is still part of the Chantry.

In terms of the Chantry attempting to chastise any nations after the fact, should that nation attack/slaughter/imprison/enslave mages, there is no political grounding for them to stand on. Mages would not be members of the Chantry, and they would also not be the charges/wards of the Chantry as they are now. They would be subjects of the respective countries and fiefs they were born in, and any interference by the Chantry would be direct interference in the country's internal politics(thus sacrificing the Chantry's own neutrality, which I doubt they'd do for a handful of peasants).

Again - this is a reform and not a separation.

Youth4Ever wrote...

 All other civil, criminal, and commerical matters concerning mages are handled by the circles.

Would the revenues and operations of the businesses be handled through the Chantry or through the Circle? If it is through the Circle, then it is clearly a mage-run business.

The situation you have proposed is more akin to the Chantry offering protection to an independent third party rather than to vassals( the serf/noble/liege relationship).  Historically this has been rather difficult to maintain. If the mages are paying for Templar operations through these businesses, than there is not only obvious incentive for the Chantry to protect them even from mundane attacks, they're clearly engaged in a client state type relation in any political debate.

I believe it is necessary for the symbiotic relation where mage crafting earnings also pay for the Templars rather than relying on Chantry tithes and donations, in order for the system to be stable. This however, necesitates a great deal of cooperation or control between the Circle and the Chantry regarding commercial activities, rather than practical free reign.

[lil yonce]

@EmperorSahlertz; Do you have an opinion on compromise? Your views have proven moderate, and I'd be interested to hear them, if so.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 29 décembre 2013 - 05:31 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why do people keep forgetting that healers are supposed to be rare on Thedas?

Spirit healers are rare, yes. But mages can still learn basic healing spells, can they not? They might just not be at Wynne and Anders's level.

The codex says that the Creation School is incredibly hard to learn and master, making its practioners rather rare. Spirit Healers are even more rare, in part because of Templar scrutiny.

I'll be damned. Never mind, I stand corrected.

It was bound to happen at some point 

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
It was bound to happen at some point 

I rarely get schooled on magical knowledge, so hat's off to you sir. Enjoy it while it lasts.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Youth4Ever wrote...

@EmperorSahlertz; Do you have an opinion on compromise? You're views have proven moderate, and I'd be interested to hear them, if so.

I believe compromise is possible, but I havn't had time to sit down and think out a proper system incorporating it.

[MisterJB]

Youth4Ever wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Mages should be allowed to partake in industry that is exclusive to them; such as selling enchanted items; and end it there. No mages in mines, no mages setting up clinics, etc.

Untenable.

Not according to this post by David Gaider:

David Gaider wrote...
There was no Circle to submit. If you're picturing mages as having any kind of organization with which the Chantry would have negotiated, then you're picturing it incorrectly.

In the time during which the Circle of Magi was created by the Chantry and the Inquisition, any mages outside of the Tevinter Imperium existed primarily as fugitives and loners. At best they formed small cabals. These would have been slowly and systematically dealt with by the newly-formed Circle as it expanded across Thedas, one tower built at a time... it did not spring up overnight over the entire continent. And the mages so subsumed had little choice in the matter. Considering that it was a time of chaos where anyone with magical talent was viewed with terror, I imagine there's no small number who were relieved to be offered protection-- no matter the price.

Apparently, it was entirely attainable to have mages as meaningless parts of society before the Circle. If it's between that or watching Southern Thedas be slowly dominated by mages, I'll take the former.

[Vandicus]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I could see them perhaps getting a Bann or equivalent member for each nation, like how the City Elves do in Ferelden after Origins. That way they have a voice in the nation they live in instead of having to go solely through the Chantry.

Would that Bann have to offer troops to his liege in times of war? I'm not ruling out the possibility of a political representative of some sort(but then how would they even see that their words are heeded without some sort of force to back it up?), but integrating them into the system of nobility has a whole host of consequences for mages who are not subject to the normal rules of society.

The Circle could send damage-specialty mages to aid the crown in defense of the nation, yes. They'd be willing to since it is there home as well. And perhaps Bann is too high a title. I was mostly saying that like the City Elves after Origins, the mages have a voice to express themselves directly to the nation they live in rather than use the Chantry as a middleman.

War scenarios tend to encourage blood mage scenarios when not monitored by templars(which is difficult when the Chantry is officially neutral). If you and your unit are about to die, and everyone is pressuring you to do whatever you can to help them get out of there alive, would you hesitate to use blood magic or summon demons? Better than being dead after all.

Having the ability to directly appeal to their liege is an interesting idea, but somewhat complicated. If they're appealing to their liege as his subjects, then aren't they burdened with the same duties and responsibilities of his subjects? Not to mention the rulers themselves may be of dubious intent.

Additionally, not every nation functions like Fereldan. There are differing degrees of power that nobles hold, where Fereldan is closer to a democracy amongst nobles, Orlais is a back-stabbing mess where people hold differing degrees of absolute power over their subordinates. Ultimately without actual power, any representative of mages would be appealing to the humanity of the nobles( ) when requesting aid. Which brings us back to the problem of what kind of power we could safely grant mages.

[Fortlowe]

Lurium doesn't provide the Templars with anything but a leash for the Chantry to hold. This is proven by Alistair's abilities, sans Lyrium.

[Fast Jimmy]

I think the suggestion in the OP is going to be (roughly) how things end up in DA:I.

Seeing as how the devs won't be able to reconcile a choice between locking all Mages up in the Tower with the Templars as their jailor or having all Mages free to roam as they see fit, the game is likely going to force a compromise where Templars work with the Circle, but allow a much greater level of freedom and representation than seen previously as the guaranteed outcome. The choice the Inquisitor may have is who to appoint as leader of the Mage/Templar groups (respectively), if a "big choice" is offered on the topic.

[Gileadan]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Gileadan wrote...

- Templar quarters should be outside the mage quarters.
- Templars may only enter the mage quarters at the request of the mages
- Templars stop any vaguely abomination or demon-like thing from exiting the premises
- Templars have no authority about what happens inside the mage quarters

It should be up to any given mage community and their assigned templars to discuss the time the templars have to wait when they get no more life signs from inside and may enter by force to clear out whatever critters overran the place. If they receive a request for help, they will assist immediately, of course.

If templars can't enter then how would they stop an abomination? When a few mage survivors come running out? That's if they can even escape. Also who'd spot the blood mages? Sure there are some mages who would rat out their friend but others wouldn't. Mages need some form of surveillance otherwise things get out of hand and always have in the case of the Circle Tower and Kirkwall.

That is intentional. Everything that happens inside the mage community will be their responsibility. If they want templar help, they can ask for it. When the "no life sign" timer runs out, templars clean out the place.  Responsible mage communities will be fine. The others will practicaly annul themselves, and no outsider can be blamed then.

[lil yonce]

Vandicus wrote...
Would the revenues and operations of the businesses be handled through the Chantry or through the Circle? If it is through the Circle, then it is clearly a mage-run business.

Handled by the Circle - as I assume is practiced now. The circle sells it own goods now - why is doing so under reform different?

The situation you have proposed is more akin to the Chantry offering protection to an independent third party rather than to vassals( the serf/noble/liege relationship).  Historically this has been rather difficult to maintain. If the mages are paying for Templar operations through these businesses, than there is not only obvious incentive for the Chantry to protect them even from mundane attacks, they're clearly engaged in a client state type relation in any political debate.

The circle will not pay for templars. The Chantry will.

And yes, the Circle will have some measure of autonomy in this arrangment - autonomy they have on paper currently granted under the Nevarran Accord, if you were not aware.

This system is nothing new - this is how the circles are supposed to work, with a few tweaks to ensure the Circle will no longer be marginalized and subject to the whims of templars and chantry officials.

I believe it is necessary for the symbiotic relation where mage crafting earnings also pay for the Templars rather than relying on Chantry tithes and donations, in order for the system to be stable. This however, necesitates a great deal of cooperation or control between the Circle and the Chantry regarding commercial activities, rather than practical free reign.

Templar supporters do not want the circles to pay templars for obvious reasons.

I don't either - I don't want the expense.

And I don't want the Chantry or templars to have control of the circles. That is the current practice and it does not work.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 29 décembre 2013 - 02:04 .