203 réponses à ce sujet

[Vandicus]

Gileadan wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

Gileadan wrote...

- Templar quarters should be outside the mage quarters.
- Templars may only enter the mage quarters at the request of the mages
- Templars stop any vaguely abomination or demon-like thing from exiting the premises
- Templars have no authority about what happens inside the mage quarters

It should be up to any given mage community and their assigned templars to discuss the time the templars have to wait when they get no more life signs from inside and may enter by force to clear out whatever critters overran the place. If they receive a request for help, they will assist immediately, of course.

If templars can't enter then how would they stop an abomination? When a few mage survivors come running out? That's if they can even escape. Also who'd spot the blood mages? Sure there are some mages who would rat out their friend but others wouldn't. Mages need some form of surveillance otherwise things get out of hand and always have in the case of the Circle Tower and Kirkwall.

That is intentional. Everything that happens inside the mage community will be their responsibility. If they want templar help, they can ask for it. When the "no life sign" timer runs out, templars clean out the place.  Responsible mage communities will be fine. The others will practicaly annul themselves, and no outsider can be blamed then.

Would your average mage be satisfied with that arrangement? It only takes one blood mage for everything to go klabooey. If the community appointed its own special mage guards, it'd be no different from the templars. If I were a mage I'd prefer to have plenty of templars handy, and many copies of the Litany of Adralla on hand. I'll be damned if I let a blood mage mind control me.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Fortlowe wrote...

Lurium doesn't provide the Templars with anything but a leash for the Chantry to hold. This is proven by Alistair's abilities, sans Lyrium.

Alistair took Lyrium. That was established in the comics. DA2 also made it clear that Lyrium MUST be consumed for Tempars to gain their abilities.

[Hellion Rex]

Youth4Ever wrote...

I don't want the Chantry or templars to have control of the circles. That is the current practice and it does not work.

This point here, is where it gets dicey. The Chantry and Templars hold a death grip on the Circle. They need some measure of assurance that if they were to step back, things would not go to hell in a handbasket. Full autonomy is something to work towards, but I don't think it will be practical or even possible to gain it in the immediate future.

[lil yonce]

MisterJB wrote...
Apparently, it was entirely attainable to have mages as meaningless parts of society before the Circle. If it's between that or watching Southern Thedas be slowly dominated by mages, I'll take the former.

I didn't argue it has occured - I argued that you want Circle subjugation to continue for some hardly justified "greater good" is untenable.

[Gileadan]

Vandicus wrote...
Would your average mage be satisfied with that arrangement? It only takes one blood mage for everything to go klabooey. If the community appointed its own special mage guards, it'd be no different from the templars. If I were a mage I'd prefer to have plenty of templars handy, and many copies of the Litany of Adralla on hand. I'll be damned if I let a blood mage mind control me.

I have no idea if the average mage would be satisfied. Don't they all want to be free of templar control? With that freedom comes the responsibility to police themselves.  

Those who want a closer cooperation with the templars should be free to have that. Give templars the right to patrol the mage quarters. Have them on hand during meetings and investigations. It's all good. It should be for the mages to decide how much of a templar presence they want. But it's also for them to bear the consequences of said decisions.

[Vandicus]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
Would the revenues and operations of the businesses be handled through the Chantry or through the Circle? If it is through the Circle, then it is clearly a mage-run business.

Handled by the Circle - as I assume is practiced now. The circle sells it own goods now - why is doing so under reform different?

The situation you have proposed is more akin to the Chantry offering protection to an independent third party rather than to vassals( the serf/noble/liege relationship).  Historically this has been rather difficult to maintain. If the mages are paying for Templar operations through these businesses, than there is not only obvious incentive for the Chantry to protect them even from mundane attacks, they're clearly engaged in a client state type relation in any political debate.

The circle will not pay for templars. The Chantry will.

And yes, the Circle will have some measure of autonomy in this arrangment - autonomy they have on paper currently granted under the Nevarran Accord, if you were not aware.

This system is nothing new - this is how the circles are supposed to work, with a few tweaks to ensure the Circle will no longer be marginalized and subject to the whims of templars and chantry officials.

I believe it is necessary for the symbiotic relation where mage crafting earnings also pay for the Templars rather than relying on Chantry tithes and donations, in order for the system to be stable. This however, necesitates a great deal of cooperation or control between the Circle and the Chantry regarding commercial activities, rather than practical free reign.

Templar supporters do not want the circles to pay templars for obvious reasons.

I don't either - I don't want the expense.

And I don't want the Chantry or templars to have control of the circles. That is the current practice and it does not work.

IIRC the Chantry gets a great deal of revenue from the products produced by mages. If someone has a codex entry on the matter that'd be very useful.

What templar supporters mean when they say they don't want mages paying Templar wages is that they don't want them doing so directly I believe. There's a key difference between a mage paying a Templar his weekly wages and the mages paying money to the Chantry and the Chantry then paying the Templars.

It may be that the Chantry is far more charitable than I had originally imagined, but I had been under the impression that they benefited from the current arrangement as much as the mages. Could be that they're pouring tons of money out each year for the public good though.

[Axdinosaurx]

The system as is does not work. There needs to be neutral third party involved to keep both sides in check.

[MisterJB]

Youth4Ever wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Apparently, it was entirely attainable to have mages as meaningless parts of society before the Circle. If it's between that or watching Southern Thedas be slowly dominated by mages, I'll take the former.

I didn't argue it has occured - I argued that you want Circle subjugation to continue for some hardly justified "greater good" is untenable.

Mages not being able to have their fingers into every pie ranks lower in the scale of tragedies when compared to non-mages becoming second class citizens everywhere in Thedas.
I am not asking that mages be all killed or made Tranquil. Only that they restrict themselves to the avenues of income that have supported them for centuries.
If they want to sell enchanted items to the wealthy, be my guest. If they wish to provide water to populations or own rights to the incomes of pieces of land containing vital resources, then we have a problem.

Modifié par MisterJB, 29 décembre 2013 - 02:17 .

[Vandicus]

Gileadan wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
Would your average mage be satisfied with that arrangement? It only takes one blood mage for everything to go klabooey. If the community appointed its own special mage guards, it'd be no different from the templars. If I were a mage I'd prefer to have plenty of templars handy, and many copies of the Litany of Adralla on hand. I'll be damned if I let a blood mage mind control me.

I have no idea if the average mage would be satisfied. Don't they all want to be free of templar control? With that freedom comes the responsibility to police themselves.  

Those who want a closer cooperation with the templars should be free to have that. Give templars the right to patrol the mage quarters. Have them on hand during meetings and investigations. It's all good. It should be for the mages to decide how much of a templar presence they want. But it's also for them to bear the consequences of said decisions.

Having different independent communities with different levels of security where they could choose to live then? I don't actually see any signficant problems with that arrangement.

How to pay for everything is a separate matter of course.

[lil yonce]

eluvianix wrote...
This point here, is where it gets dicey. The Chantry and Templars hold a death grip on the Circle. They need some measure of assurance that if they were to step back, things would not go to hell in a handbasket.

That is where having political and economic leverage will help mages.

Things won't go back to the way they were because, truly, the cannot.

The Chantry will have too much vested interest to fight once things are in place.

EDIT: I realized you likely meant the Chantry and templars would need reassurance. Sorry for any confusion.

The Chantry will have control over the lyrium supply, and there will be measures in place to prevent the circles becoming too powerful - but absolute security that nothing will destabilize the Circle of Magi?

I don't think that exists in any solution that doesn't call for harsher restrictions on circles and mages across the board.

Full autonomy is something to work towards, but I don't think it will be practical or even possible to gain it in the immediate future.

The circle will always need a regulator of some kind.

I don't want an unregulated Circle - just one not under the Chantry's thumb.

An international organization other than the Chantry is desirable in the future.

But governing your own circles - that's a must.

Deciding who is made tranquil without templar pressure, or deciding if the Harrowing is useful and should be continued, or if complementary testing or other testing is a better idea should be implemented, deciding your First Enchanter without templar pressure, being free to congregate in fraternities without fear your views will be used against you by templars or chantry officials, conducting fade research like Rhys without authorities giving you the side eye for it - that sort of stuff is necessary.

That can only be accomplished with self-goverance.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 29 décembre 2013 - 06:06 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Vandicus wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I could see them perhaps getting a Bann or equivalent member for each nation, like how the City Elves do in Ferelden after Origins. That way they have a voice in the nation they live in instead of having to go solely through the Chantry.

Would that Bann have to offer troops to his liege in times of war? I'm not ruling out the possibility of a political representative of some sort(but then how would they even see that their words are heeded without some sort of force to back it up?), but integrating them into the system of nobility has a whole host of consequences for mages who are not subject to the normal rules of society.

The Circle could send damage-specialty mages to aid the crown in defense of the nation, yes. They'd be willing to since it is there home as well. And perhaps Bann is too high a title. I was mostly saying that like the City Elves after Origins, the mages have a voice to express themselves directly to the nation they live in rather than use the Chantry as a middleman.

War scenarios tend to encourage blood mage scenarios when not monitored by templars(which is difficult when the Chantry is officially neutral). If you and your unit are about to die, and everyone is pressuring you to do whatever you can to help them get out of there alive, would you hesitate to use blood magic or summon demons? Better than being dead after all.

Having the ability to directly appeal to their liege is an interesting idea, but somewhat complicated. If they're appealing to their liege as his subjects, then aren't they burdened with the same duties and responsibilities of his subjects? Not to mention the rulers themselves may be of dubious intent.

Additionally, not every nation functions like Fereldan. There are differing degrees of power that nobles hold, where Fereldan is closer to a democracy amongst nobles, Orlais is a back-stabbing mess where people hold differing degrees of absolute power over their subordinates. Ultimately without actual power, any representative of mages would be appealing to the humanity of the nobles( ) when requesting aid. Which brings us back to the problem of what kind of power we could safely grant mages.

Yeah, there is a risk of that. Unfortunately, I can't think of a full solution to that problem. There's partial solutions, like sending mages who has shown they know how summoning demons will lead to more harm than good, but war makes people do crazy things to survive.

True about the ruler may having dubious intent, but then again the mages would still be connected to the Chantry. Their position in the court would be the same sort of situation as the Chantry. That situation would probably work better since the Chantry has that in all nations. 

[Jaison1986]

eluvianix wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

I don't want the Chantry or templars to have control of the circles. That is the current practice and it does not work.

This point here, is where it gets dicey. The Chantry and Templars hold a death grip on the Circle. They need some measure of assurance that if they were to step back, things would not go to hell in a handbasket. Full autonomy is something to work towards, but I don't think it will be practical or even possible to gain it in the immediate future.

This is the point. Why bother using them? They were in charge of things for an millenium, and things never improved for the mages. Why not start it all with an clean slate? Create an entirely new order for this pourpose? One that follows different laws and mindsets? An group that would be taught to see mages as individuals with dangerous but yet controlable power, and not "cursed people tainted by the wrath of the maker" .

[Vandicus]

The original Inquisition was not part of the Chantry, though they became the Templar Order(coincidentally neither is this Inquisition).

Personally I don't see any problems unique to the Chantry as an international regulatory organization(they could occur in pretty much any organization like that), though there's perhaps too much bad blood to use that organization now.

[lil yonce]

Vandicus wrote...
IIRC the Chantry gets a great deal of revenue from the products produced by mages. If someone has a codex entry on the matter that'd be very useful.

I don't recall the Chantry making one red cent from Circle operations.

I would need some confirmation on that too.

What templar supporters mean when they say they don't want mages paying Templar wages is that they don't want them doing so directly I believe. There's a key difference between a mage paying a Templar his weekly wages and the mages paying money to the Chantry and the Chantry then paying the Templars.

Well, in that case, I have suggested "luxury lyrium taxes" the Circle pays to the Chantry to be used to pay templars.

It may be that the Chantry is far more charitable than I had originally imagined, but I had been under the impression that they benefited from the current arrangement as much as the mages. Could be that they're pouring tons of money out each year for the public good though.

I don't think they pour much, if any, coin into circles. The Circle supports itself with enchantments - the tranquil at Ostagar remarks that the Circle, "could not get by on charity," and the codex entry on the tranquil states the Circle's operation is sustained by the Formari, by the tranquil, essentially.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 29 décembre 2013 - 05:29 .

[Vandicus]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
IIRC the Chantry gets a great deal of revenue from the products produced by mages. If someone has a codex entry on the matter that'd be very useful.

I don't recall the Chantry making one red cent from Circle operations.

I would need some confirmation on that too.

What templar supporters mean when they say they don't want mages paying Templar wages is that they don't want them doing so directly I believe. There's a key difference between a mage paying a Templar his weekly wages and the mages paying money to the Chantry and the Chantry then paying the Templars.

Well, in that case, I have suggested "luxuary lyrium taxes" the Circle pays to the Chantry to be used to pay templars.

It may be that the Chantry is far more charitable than I had originally imagined, but I had been under the impression that they benefited from the current arrangement as much as the mages. Could be that they're pouring tons of money out each year for the public good though.

I don't they pour much, if any, coin into circles. They support supports itself with enchantments - the tranquil at Ostagar remarks that the Circle, "could not get by on charity alone," and the codex entry on the tranquil states the Circle's operation is sustained by the Formari, by the tranquil, essentially.

I'm not all that concerned about how funding is provided, so long as there is a direct link between Chantry interests and mage interests. The Chantry needs an incentive to protect mages from foreign entities, and mages need a protector.

The templars are a well-trained, and (extraordinarily) well-armed standing army. It seems the full templars are paid rather well by the standards of your average inhabitant of Thedas. If the Chantry indeed makes no profit on mages, they'd have to be sinking in a fortune to maintain a force this size across a continent.

[Fortlowe]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Fortlowe wrote...

Lurium doesn't provide the Templars with anything but a leash for the Chantry to hold. This is proven by Alistair's abilities, sans Lyrium.

Alistair took Lyrium. That was established in the comics. DA2 also made it clear that Lyrium MUST be consumed for Tempars to gain their abilities.

Then give them lyrium. However, in the game he said he does not take it. 

[In Exile]

Axdinosaurx wrote...

The system as is does not work. There needs to be neutral third party involved to keep both sides in check.

There is no neutral third party in Thedas. The only thing in existence are the GWs, and they're only neutral outside of their power base in the Anderfels because of how carefully they have to tread. But Amanthine suggests even they are focused on accruing political power. 

[TK514]

I don't think the Mages or the Templars need reform. I think the Circles, as designed, would work fine. Mages must be segregated because they are inherently a latent threat well beyond their limited numbers, and regardless of their intentions. Templars must have life and death authority over mages, because there are limits to how mages and magic can be monitored and controlled, and how magical catastrophes can be contained once in motion.

I think the organization that needs reform is the Seekers. This is probably an artifact of them being a relatively recent development by the writers to put into the lore, but the fact is, we never see them do anything noteworthy in either game, and in Asunder they act like Templars. The Seekers need to start acting in the role we are told the exist to fill, namely that of a brake on potential Templar overzealousness and abuse.

Had the Seekers been performing the duties that we are told are their purpose for being, the situation in Kirkwall never would have happened. The moment a mage was made illegally tranquil, the individual would have been questioned and Alrik would have been taken out of the picture. Meredith's claims would have been investigated, and if proven false she would ultimately have been removed from her position.

Mages do need to be protected from abuses of power, but the answer is not Mage rights at the expense of Thedas, which is what the OPs suggestions, and what the Mage Rebellion, would result in. The answer is to have the organization charged to protect against those abuses actually doing its job.

Modifié par TK514, 29 décembre 2013 - 02:57 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Fortlowe wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Fortlowe wrote...

Lurium doesn't provide the Templars with anything but a leash for the Chantry to hold. This is proven by Alistair's abilities, sans Lyrium.

Alistair took Lyrium. That was established in the comics. DA2 also made it clear that Lyrium MUST be consumed for Tempars to gain their abilities.

Then give them lyrium. However, in the game he said he does not take it. 

I know he did. But that was retconned for various reasons.

And giving Tranquil Lyrium will theoretically result in one of two things: Either it has no effect on them, or it kills them.
The first option is because they are cut off from the Fade. While the Tranquil is capable of working Lyrium, they do not suffer any effect good or ill from the consumption of Lyrium.
The second scenario os because they used to be Mages. Lyrium is extremely lethal to mages if not prepared properly. It seems the Lyrium Templars cosme is different for the state Mages can safely consume it in.

[dragonflight288]

TK514 wrote...

I don't think the Mages or the Templars need reform. I think the Circles, as designed, would work fine. Mages must be segregated because they are inherently a latent threat well beyond their limited numbers, and regardless of their intentions. Templars must have life and death authority over mages, because there are limits to how mages and magic can be monitored and controlled, and how magical catastrophes can be contained once in motion.

I think the organization that needs reform is the Seekers. This is probably an artifact of them being a relatively recent development by the writers to put into the lore, but the fact is, we never see them do anything noteworthy in either game, and in Asunder they act like Templars. The Seekers need to start acting in the role we are told the exist to fill, namely that of a brake on potential Templar overzealousness and abuse.

Had the Seekers been performing the duties that we are told are their purpose for being, the situation in Kirkwall never would have happened. The moment a mage was made illegally tranquil, the individual would have been questioned and Alrik would have been taken out of the picture. Meredith's claims would have been investigated, and if proven false she would ultimately have been removed from her position.

Mages do need to be protected from abuses of power, but the answer is not Mage rights at the expense of Thedas, which is what the OPs suggestions, and what the Mage Rebellion, would result in. The answer is to have the organization charged to protect against those abuses actually doing its job.

The system as organized is too full of potential for abuse, and is flawed in the fact that the quality of mages is entirely dependent on the whims of the Knight-Commander in charge, and it does not follow the On-Paper system the Nevarra Accord guarantees, as the mages rights are actually much fewer than the Nevarran Accord promises them, since the templars have takens so much power inch by inch over the 700 years the Circle's have been organized.

I'm on board with Youth4Ever here, this system she, or at least I think she's a she, is proposing is probably the one most likely to succeed in the stated goals of giving mages some degree of autonomy, mandatory training, while also having a division, or an army, of templars at the ready nearby in the event of an emergency, while also limiting how much control or abuse templars have over mages, and keeping the mages in one place so they are contained from the mundanes, more or less.

[TK514]

dragonflight288 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

I don't think the Mages or the Templars need reform. I think the Circles, as designed, would work fine. Mages must be segregated because they are inherently a latent threat well beyond their limited numbers, and regardless of their intentions. Templars must have life and death authority over mages, because there are limits to how mages and magic can be monitored and controlled, and how magical catastrophes can be contained once in motion.

I think the organization that needs reform is the Seekers. This is probably an artifact of them being a relatively recent development by the writers to put into the lore, but the fact is, we never see them do anything noteworthy in either game, and in Asunder they act like Templars. The Seekers need to start acting in the role we are told the exist to fill, namely that of a brake on potential Templar overzealousness and abuse.

Had the Seekers been performing the duties that we are told are their purpose for being, the situation in Kirkwall never would have happened. The moment a mage was made illegally tranquil, the individual would have been questioned and Alrik would have been taken out of the picture. Meredith's claims would have been investigated, and if proven false she would ultimately have been removed from her position.

Mages do need to be protected from abuses of power, but the answer is not Mage rights at the expense of Thedas, which is what the OPs suggestions, and what the Mage Rebellion, would result in. The answer is to have the organization charged to protect against those abuses actually doing its job.

The system as organized is too full of potential for abuse, and is flawed in the fact that the quality of mages is entirely dependent on the whims of the Knight-Commander in charge, and it does not follow the On-Paper system the Nevarra Accord guarantees, as the mages rights are actually much fewer than the Nevarran Accord promises them, since the templars have takens so much power inch by inch over the 700 years the Circle's have been organized.

I'm on board with Youth4Ever here, this system she, or at least I think she's a she, is proposing is probably the one most likely to succeed in the stated goals of giving mages some degree of autonomy, mandatory training, while also having a division, or an army, of templars at the ready nearby in the event of an emergency, while also limiting how much control or abuse templars have over mages, and keeping the mages in one place so they are contained from the mundanes, more or less.

So you just ignored the post you quoted altogether, then.  Ok.

Still, since you discuss the 'on paper system' I'd love to see that copy of the Navarran Accords.  Can you link it?  It will be quite interesting to read it in full.  At the very least you must have a detailed list of mage rights
guaranteed by the Accord, and how they have been eroded, with citations,
since you reference them with such conviction and certainty.  Much like the assertion that the Chantry was repressing anatomical studies.

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...
I think the organization that needs reform is the Seekers. This is probably an artifact of them being a relatively recent development by the writers to put into the lore, but the fact is, we never see them do anything noteworthy in either game, and in Asunder they act like Templars. The Seekers need to start acting in the role we are told the exist to fill, namely that of a brake on potential Templar overzealousness and abuse.

Had the Seekers been performing the duties that we are told are their purpose for being, the situation in Kirkwall never would have happened. The moment a mage was made illegally tranquil, the individual would have been questioned and Alrik would have been taken out of the picture. Meredith's claims would have been investigated, and if proven false she would ultimately have been removed from her position.

You raise some very true points. The Seekers do indeed seem to be rather inept at their jobs at the present time.

[Lulupab]

What if we were to find a way to stop mages from becoming abominations? Some sort of ward that gets applied in the mage's childhood without taking him/her away from the parents. This way we won't need any cricle and templars can exist as well because they will be needed to deal with criminal mages which are not different than any other criminal and need policing. But the fact that we won't have any more abomination should reduce the fear some people have of mages significantly.

[EmperorSahlertz]

If a prevention for possession were ever to be developed then much of the problem would go away. There would however still be the problem of Blood Magic.

But since no such cure has been developed in all the millenia that mages existed, makes me skeptical that such a thing is even possible.