203 réponses à ce sujet

[lil yonce]

TK514 wrote...
I don't think the Mages or the Templars need reform. I think the Circles, as designed, would work fine. Mages must be segregated because they are inherently a latent threat well beyond their limited numbers, and regardless of their intentions. Templars must have life and death authority over mages, because there are limits to how mages and magic can be monitored and controlled, and how magical catastrophes can be contained once in motion.

No life or death authority given to the templars. That is a major issue now, and will continue to be in any system that promotes arbitrary, despotic templar power.

"The origin of all civil government, justly established, must be a voluntary compact between the rulers and the ruled; and must be liable to such limitations, as are necessary for the security of the absolute rights of the latter; for what original title can any man or set of men have to govern others except their own consent?"

Mages do not want to give templars life and death authority over them - they abuse it now, and in general, this sort of power is far too oppressive. It is one impetus of the current controversy.

I'm willing to regulate the Right of Annulment - in extreme situations it will likely be unavoidable - but I will not accept it's invocation solely on the will of one templar, as is the practice now, or even a group of templars, if that something someone would suggest.

IMO - joint regulation on the RoA, agreed to in treaty, is mandatory.

I think the organization that needs reform is the Seekers. This is probably an artifact of them being a relatively recent development by the writers to put into the lore, but the fact is, we never see them do anything noteworthy in either game, and in Asunder they act like Templars. The Seekers need to start acting in the role we are told the exist to fill, namely that of a brake on potential Templar overzealousness and abuse. Had the Seekers been performing the duties that we are told are their purpose for being, the situation in Kirkwall never would have happened. The moment a mage was made illegally tranquil, the individual would have been questioned and Alrik would have been taken out of the picture. Meredith's claims would have been investigated, and if proven false she would ultimately have been removed from her position.

The Seekers as they exist now are an extension of the Chantry, which is bad, as they will do as the Chantry bids in the end. Overall - I trust the intention of Justinia V, but when Divines like Amara III take power, its no good.

Frankly - I don't trust the Seekers as they exist now.

As we've seen, a Lambert figure in charge clouds and unravels their purpose. They're operations are shadowy and secret - so if they do, in fact, combat templar corruption, I'm not certain how the magi are supposed to know it.

And if they are combating templar corruption, why are most of their operations a secret?

Again - I don't trust it. It seems their role could be more that of Chantry Praetorian Guard than "Seekers of Truth" -IMO.

My solution - I want the Seekers - the faction loyal to Justinia V -  to split from the Chantry and become an independent, publically funded organization that polices both the Circle and Templar Order.

Crowns, nobility, and peasants voluntarily fund this international faction to objectively investigate and report on Circle and templar activity.

An international fund reduces the chance at corruption - bribes from any one country affecting their reports and opinions.

Their operating expenses will be less than that of the Templar Order, as my Seekers don't require lyrium to do their job.

Their reports and opinions on templar and magi operations is made public, and will be submitted to joint-magic use committees for use in oversight.

Mages do need to be protected from abuses of power, but the answer is not Mage rights at the expense of Thedas, which is what the OPs suggestions, and what the Mage Rebellion, would result in. The answer is to have the organization charged to protect against those abuses actually doing its job.

The Circle is guaranteed autonomy now - templars violating the Nevarran Accord prevent them from exercising it.

If there is any compromise to be had, the templars cannot control the circles.

That's the core issue of the current conflict - it isn't going to disappear with proper, or greater oversight, or even with benevolent templars.

The templars have mages by the throat - life or death control over them they cannot justify legally - and even if they could, it is flatout unacceptable.

I believe my proposal a fair enough deal, but if even renewing the Nevarran Accord - how its supposed to work - is off table - I think the mage-templar war is back on.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 30 décembre 2013 - 06:07 .

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If a prevention for possession were ever to be developed then much of the problem would go away. There would however still be the problem of Blood Magic.

But since no such cure has been developed in all the millenia that mages existed, makes me skeptical that such a thing is even possible.

And how much research has been done? There is no evidence that any research has been done outside of Tevinter, a land saturated with blood mages, yet we don't hear anything about abominations or demons running rampant there.

We know Adralla was a magister who researched ways to combat the influences of blood magic dominating minds, and had to flee Tevinter because of assassins. Adralla then worked with the Chantry, likely using blood magic herself to control the minds of others in order to properly field test how to combat it, and that's how we got the Litany. And even then, Wynne says Adralla was a bard so it's also quite likely that the Circles or the Chantry or both decided they didn't want anyone knowing they were actively working with a Tevinter Magister.

But after Adralla, there are no references whatsoever of any research being done. It is disingenuous to think that there isn't a possibility of solving possession when there's no evidence that people have been working on the problem itself.

On a side note: We do know there is a way to cure possession if the person made a deal with the demon. If they were forcibly possessed, there is no known way to cure them.

[lil yonce]

dragonflight288 wrote...
I'm on board with Youth4Ever here, this system she, or at least I think she's a she,

I am a she. 

[lil yonce]

MisterJB wrote...
Mages not being able to have their fingers into every pie ranks lower in the scale of tragedies when compared to non-mages becoming second class citizens everywhere in Thedas.

And if magic raises the standard of living for all thedosians?

If  say, agriculture florishes, and food becomes abundant as a result of magic's involvement in crop growing, isn't that a tragedy if it wasn't used?

If mundane are freed from field labor and spend their time and coin on education instead? 

If a food surplus that, say, permits Nevarra to feed the barren Anderfels -  in these scenarios, isn't magic use being condemned to finance "bare necessities only," a tragedy?

I am not asking that mages be all killed or made Tranquil. Only that they restrict themselves to the avenues of income that have supported them for centuries.  If they want to sell enchanted items to the wealthy, be my guest. If they wish to provide water to populations or own rights to the incomes of pieces of land containing vital resources, then we have a problem.

And what if they've made all the coin they can reasonably make from magic and enchantments without branching out?

What if the RoT is eliminated in its current form - if making tranquil is no longer an option? If magic can be removed from a wielder without severing their connection to the Fade? The interest in that, and the preliminary research for it is there.

Enchantment would be gone, and so would all Circle income in your system. Mages must branch out if the Circle is to survive  - unless the people of Thedas want to pay for it, that is.

And who says they don't have monopolies, or any over-arching influence on industries already?

If magi enchant rudimentary mechanized reapers, do they control agriculture - any more than they control the knife industry if enchanted penknives are a best-seller?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 30 décembre 2013 - 06:10 .

[lil yonce]

dragonflight288 wrote...
The system as organized is too full of potential for abuse, and is flawed in the fact that the quality of mages is entirely dependent on the whims of the Knight-Commander in charge, and it does not follow the On-Paper system the Nevarra Accord guarantees, as the mages rights are actually much fewer than the Nevarran Accord promises them, since the templars have taken so much power inch by inch over the 700 years the Circle's have been organized.

Yes. Inch by inch - like Tevinter magisters. And the thousand-year college alliance between Aequitarians and Loyalists hasn't helped a thing either.

[Magdalena11]

For the mages:

Separate quarters for mages that templars can enter with permission of the mage(s) - everyone deserves the right to privacy in their own home. In case of suspected wrongdoing there should be a predetermined procedure for demanding entry, similar to a search warrant.

The right for mages to congregate at times of their choosing with one or more templars present but not participating. I get the idea that they might be plotting sedition, so let a templar or two be a witness but there are things mages might want to talk about from time to time.

The right to marry and raise kids. If templars want to have a vow of chastity that's up to them but to restrict this is probably the worst human rights violation.

The right for mages who have reached the rank of enchanter to leave the tower with a sign in/sign out policy. A building that you're not allowed to leave is called a jail. I can understand the risk of allowing impressionable young mages out but mages who have proved their strength and stability shouldn't be locked up. On a related note, allowing junior mages and apprentices out once in a while on templar supervised, planned field trips would be fair and good for them. I'm not talking about "today we're going to the foundry so we can practice our fireballs and save the owners the cost of fuel" but now that I've written it that doesn't look like a bad idea. Trips to cultural attractions and historic monuments was more what I had in mind.

The right to elect their own First Enchanter. Giving templars this right gives the templars the ability to take away anything they want if they put a pawn in.

For the templars:

The right to request entrance to the mage quarters or demand it if there is evidence of wrongdoing and a predetermined procedure has been followed.

The right to be present during harrowing and step in if appropriate.

The right to be present when mages are gathered in groups of, say, 6 or more.

The right to restrict junior mages and apprentices to the tower. This has to do more with good stewardship than anything else. The templars are supposed to protect mages from society as much as society from mages and someone who hasn't got a lot of practice might lose his cool and launch an offensive spell if pelted with a rock or jumped in an alley.

The continued right to maintain phyllacteries. Much as I find them distasteful because they are blood magic I do understand why they exist.

None of this really matters because things are scripted to get worse instead of better. I think if these suggestions had been implemented, things wouldn't have gone as far as they did in the conflict.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If a prevention for possession were ever to be developed then much of the problem would go away. There would however still be the problem of Blood Magic.

But since no such cure has been developed in all the millenia that mages existed, makes me skeptical that such a thing is even possible.

And how much research has been done? There is no evidence that any research has been done outside of Tevinter, a land saturated with blood mages, yet we don't hear anything about abominations or demons running rampant there.

We know Adralla was a magister who researched ways to combat the influences of blood magic dominating minds, and had to flee Tevinter because of assassins. Adralla then worked with the Chantry, likely using blood magic herself to control the minds of others in order to properly field test how to combat it, and that's how we got the Litany. And even then, Wynne says Adralla was a bard so it's also quite likely that the Circles or the Chantry or both decided they didn't want anyone knowing they were actively working with a Tevinter Magister.

But after Adralla, there are no references whatsoever of any research being done. It is disingenuous to think that there isn't a possibility of solving possession when there's no evidence that people have been working on the problem itself.

On a side note: We do know there is a way to cure possession if the person made a deal with the demon. If they were forcibly possessed, there is no known way to cure them.

Question: Pharamond said that his Tranquility was cured initially when the pride demon reached across the Veil to touch his mind, but the possession "came later". After he was cured, did he actually "make a deal"? Because he was able to be saved from his possession.

[dragonflight288]

Question: Pharamond said that his Tranquility was cured initially when the pride demon reached across the Veil to touch his mind, but the possession "came later". After he was cured, did he actually "make a deal"? Because he was able to be saved from his possession.

It's possible, I suppose. Irving and Jowan both make it clear in origins that if a mage makes a deal, they can be saved of their possession by defeating the demon in the Fade.

Add in Anders friend Karl was also temporarily cured when he was in proximity of Justice acting through Anders, but lost his emotions within a few minutes of regaining them. I suppose it's possible that Pharamond got cured, in a moment of panicked lucidity, figured out what happened and made a deal in order to keep his emotions, and ended up possessed that way.

[Magdalena11]

 @eluvianix - I think Pharamond was being deliberately vague.  He didn't say how much later.  I also think that because he could be saved he did make an agreement with the demon.

This is what I think might have happened.  Demon touches his mind.  He has emotions again.  Demon tells him that he will continue to have emotions only as long as the demon is acting through him.  He wants to keep his emotions and agrees.  Remember how overwrought his emotions were - he may have acted a bit rashly and then been sorry about his choice and feeling guilty because of what he allowed the demon to do.

[Magdalena11]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Question: Pharamond said that his Tranquility was cured initially when the pride demon reached across the Veil to touch his mind, but the possession "came later". After he was cured, did he actually "make a deal"? Because he was able to be saved from his possession.

It's possible, I suppose. Irving and Jowan both make it clear in origins that if a mage makes a deal, they can be saved of their possession by defeating the demon in the Fade.

Add in Anders friend Karl was also temporarily cured when he was in proximity of Justice acting through Anders, but lost his emotions within a few minutes of regaining them. I suppose it's possible that Pharamond got cured, in a moment of panicked lucidity, figured out what happened and made a deal in order to keep his emotions, and ended up possessed that way.

You just said the exact same thing I meant but much more clearly.  Thank you.

[TK514]

Youth4Ever wrote...

"The origin of all civil government, justly established, must be a voluntary compact between the rulers and the ruled; and must be liable to such limitations, as are necessary for the security of the absolute rights of the latter; for what original title can any man or set of men have to govern others except their own consent?"

Well, there's your problem.  The Circles are not a civil government.  They are, at best, a nominally self-governed commune with necessary oversight.  More practically and realistically, they are one functional department in a much larger organization.

Youth4Ever wrote...
Mages do not want to give templars life and death authority over them - they abuse it now, and in general, this sort of power is far too oppressive. It is one impetus of the current controversy.

What mages want is irrelevant.  Just because I want to drive to work in a tank doesn't mean I should have the option.

Youth4Ever wrote...

I'm willing to regulate the Right of Annulment - in extreme situations it will likely be unavoidable - but I will not accept it's invocation solely on the will of one templar, as is the practice now, or even a group of templars, if that something someone would suggest.

IMO - joint regulation on the RoA, agreed to in treaty, is mandatory.

You misrepresent how the Rite is invoked now.  The only way a Knight-Commander can invoke the Rite on their own authority now is in extreme cases where the proper chain of command has been severed.  Such as when some idiot blows up the Chantry and kills the Grand Cleric.

Every time we have witnessed the Rite being invoked, the Knight-Commander has petitioned a higher authority to have it confirmed before taking action.  Gregoire sent to Denerim for permission, and Meredith initially petitioned Elthina.

And given that the Circles and Mages are not a sovereign state, they have no power or authority to make treaties in the first place, so, again, what they want is irrelevant.  They are the threat being guarded and guarded against.  What they want takes a distant back seat to the common good.

Youth4Ever wrote...
Frankly - I don't trust the Seekers as they exist now. *snip a lot of paranoid ranting and misrepresentation of what we know about the Seekers using headcannon as justification*


Crowns, nobility, and peasants voluntarily fund this international faction to objectively investigate and report on Circle and templar activity.

And if they choose not to fund it?  You're ok with your oversight organization being disbanded and allowing whatever to happen in the Circles?

Youth4Ever wrote...
An international fund reduces the chance at corruption - bribes from any one country affecting their reports and opinions.

Not only does this not make any sense, it has no basis in reality.

Youth4Ever wrote...
The Circle is guaranteed autonomy now - templars violating the Nevarran Accord prevent them from exercising it.

The Circle has never been autonomous.  It is as much a part of the Chantry as the Grand Cathedral or the local Chantry Houses.

Youth4Ever wrote...
If there is any compromise to be had, the templars cannot control the circles.

The exact opposite is true.  Certainly the First Enchanter can and should have the authority to administrate the Circle they serve, but Templars must have the power and authority to do what is necessary.  Orsino and his blood mages never would have survived to spread their corruption under a Knight-Commander with the authority to investigate them as necessary.  Meredith should never have had to ask Orsino for permission to search the mage quarters, for example.  If she had reason to suspect Blood Magic in the Circle, and she did, then the right of search and seizure should have been hers.

Youth4Ever wrote...
That's the core issue of the current conflict - it isn't going to disapper with proper, or greater oversight, or even benevolent templars.

The core of the current conflict is the perceived abuse of power.  Of course it would decrease with better oversight.  If mages with nothing to hide no longer have to fear random abuse of power, they have no reason to complain.  And those with something to hide should be afraid.

Youth4Ever wrote...
I believe my proposal a fair enough deal, but if even renewing the Nevarran Accord - how its supposed to work - is off table - I think the mage-templar war is back on.

Your proposal is absurd, for all the reasons already expanded on by others.  You would hand mages the world on a platter at the expense of everyone else.  That is what is unacceptable.

[Hellion Rex]

Ah, thank you for the clarification.

[Magdalena11]

@TK514 - There is little in this world more disturbing to those with ideas about personal freedom than the words "Those with nothing to hide have nothing to fear." There's always something to fear because unless human rights are in place and working, those in power will keep exerting their influence until everything they don't agree with is something that needs to be hidden. I suggest reading George Orwell.

I am not suggesting that increased freedom should be without responsibility.  Checks and balances need to be in place for both sides of the disagreement.  There are mages and templars both who go bad.  Understood.  What I am saying is that the reasonable remarks Divine Justinia made during the course of Asunder show a great amount of wisdom and if anyone at all had been listening to her things wouldn't have gone down the way they did.

Modifié par Magdalena11, 29 décembre 2013 - 08:40 .

[In Exile]

MisterJB wrote...
If they want to sell enchanted items to the wealthy, be my guest. If they wish to provide water to populations or own rights to the incomes of pieces of land containing vital resources, then we have a problem.

If mages can provide infinite sources of water then that'll radically change the structure of Thedosian society, in a good way. Water doesn't have to be expensive (and, in fact, if the magical means to produce it are pretty cost-effective it can be very cheap) so it wouldn't lead to an aggregation of wealth but it would lead to a serioius improvement in standard of living.

[Veruin]

In Exile wrote...
If mages can provide infinite sources of water then that'll radically change the structure of Thedosian society, in a good way. Water doesn't have to be expensive (and, in fact, if the magical means to produce it are pretty cost-effective it can be very cheap) so it wouldn't lead to an aggregation of wealth but it would lead to a serioius improvement in standard of living.

It would improve the standard of living, but it would also lead to even MORE reliance on mages/magic.

Modifié par Veruin, 29 décembre 2013 - 08:46 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If a prevention for possession were ever to be developed then much of the problem would go away. There would however still be the problem of Blood Magic.

But since no such cure has been developed in all the millenia that mages existed, makes me skeptical that such a thing is even possible.

And how much research has been done? There is no evidence that any research has been done outside of Tevinter, a land saturated with blood mages, yet we don't hear anything about abominations or demons running rampant there.

We know Adralla was a magister who researched ways to combat the influences of blood magic dominating minds, and had to flee Tevinter because of assassins. Adralla then worked with the Chantry, likely using blood magic herself to control the minds of others in order to properly field test how to combat it, and that's how we got the Litany. And even then, Wynne says Adralla was a bard so it's also quite likely that the Circles or the Chantry or both decided they didn't want anyone knowing they were actively working with a Tevinter Magister.

But after Adralla, there are no references whatsoever of any research being done. It is disingenuous to think that there isn't a possibility of solving possession when there's no evidence that people have been working on the problem itself.

On a side note: We do know there is a way to cure possession if the person made a deal with the demon. If they were forcibly possessed, there is no known way to cure them.

THOUSANDS of years have passed, and not even a hint of such a cure has shown itself. One would think that the earliest mages would prioritize a prevention of possession, no? It is almost up there with inventions such as spears, in the importance to human survival and advancement. So it seems quite clear, that no such prevention is possible, otherwise mages would have found it by now.
The best and only prevention of possession remains good and proper trainning of the mages. Which is exactly what the Circle has been doing for last 900 years, which no doubt is the reason Abominations are so rare nowadays.

And that possession can be cured is irrelevant. By the time a person is possessed it is too late anyway, and all you can do from there is damage control.

[Hellion Rex]

Veruin wrote...

In Exile wrote...
If mages can provide infinite sources of water then that'll radically change the structure of Thedosian society, in a good way. Water doesn't have to be expensive (and, in fact, if the magical means to produce it are pretty cost-effective it can be very cheap) so it wouldn't lead to an aggregation of wealth but it would lead to a serioius improvement in standard of living.

It would improve the standard of living, but it would also lead to even MORE reliance on mages/magic.

I don't think they can produce actual water, just manipulate molecules in the air, giving them a finite source of water. But what about using magic to purify water sources in towns, etc.?

[In Exile]

Youth4Ever wrote...
My solution - I want the Seekers - the faction loyal to Justinia V -  to split from the Chantry and become an independent, publically funded organization that polices both the Circle and Templar Order.

Crowns, nobility, and peasants voluntarily fund this international faction to objectively investigate and report on Circle and templar activity.

I don't think this is feasible in practice. Think about it: you're asking for taxation across all of Thedas at every level of society to fund an autonomous military force that oversees and regulates the most powerful force in Thedas and is answerable to... exactly no one. We've seen in DA:O the number of times GWs get into trouble for wandering about as an international organization, 

And what happens if Kingdom A and Kingdom B go to war? Are their mages supposed to be neutral? Are they still going to be taxed? What if they want to pull a Loghain, and offer freedom from this international organization in return for fealty and status? Mage rebellion all over again?

An international fund reduces the chance at corruption - bribes from any one country affecting their reports and opinions.

That's not true. An international fund has a low per country contribution, and these people will still live inside the borders of a particular nation. Political manuevering to appoint loyal nationals to head the local division, and then flood them with money and promises of status to have the local Circle answer to the local sovereign. Problem solved. Or, well, at least for the kingdoms who would now indirectly control a lot of mage power.  

[In Exile]

Veruin wrote...
It would improve the standard of living, but it would also lead to even MORE reliance on mages/magic.

Only if it works through "magic" wielded by individuals instead of what amounts to magical technology. If the Chantry wants to disempower mages, it should be researching ways to replicate magical effects without mages, i.e., using physical tools. Since there's some process by which mages tap into the fade, non-mages should be looking to artificially replicate that. Once that happens, they have (a) all the benefits of magic but ( no risk that their carpets or showers turn into abominations. 

[lil yonce]

[quote]TK514 wrote...
Well, there's your problem.  The Circles are not a civil government.  They are, at best, a nominally self-governed commune with necessary oversight.  More practically and realistically, they are one functional department in a much larger organization.[/quote]And that is not how they are meant to function, and they cannot function this way and preserve order or pursue the public good.

[quote]What mages want is irrelevant.  Just because I want to drive to work in a tank doesn't mean I should have the option.[/quote]Don't be asinine. If mages decide their desire for fair government is something to pursue at all costs, what they want is important - it cannot be ignored, or deemed irrelevant.

[quote]You misrepresent how the Rite is invoked now.  The only way a Knight-Commander can invoke the Rite on their own authority now is in extreme cases where the proper chain of command has been severed.  Such as when some idiot blows up the Chantry and kills the Grand Cleric. Every time we have witnessed the Rite being invoked, the Knight-Commander has petitioned a higher authority to have it confirmed before taking action.  Gregoire sent to Denerim for permission, and Meredith initially petitioned Elthina.
[/quote]Approval from a Chantry rep, who very likely has little to no idea of circle conditions, or what can be reasonably done before an RoA is invoked.

And in an emergency situation, her "discussion" on a potential annulment will be with templars alone.

The templar DAO and DA2 reaction of "kill everything," does not promote my confidence in their judgement of necessary action when something goes amiss in a tower.

[quote]And given that the Circles and Mages are not a sovereign state, they have no power or authority to make treaties in the first place, so, again, what they want is irrelevant.  They are the threat being guarded and guarded against.  What they want takes a distant back seat to the common good.[/quote]The Circle is autonomous under the Nevarran Accord.

Do you have a copy of WoT? You can look it up.

As circles are run now, the Chantry and templars overstep their bounds and violate the treaty.

[quote]*snip a lot of paranoid ranting and misrepresentation of what we know about the Seekers using headcannon as justification*[/quote]Hardly paranoid. Look at history - secret power and operations are never a good thing for government or justice.

[quote]And if they choose not to fund it?  You're ok with your oversight organization being disbanded and allowing whatever to happen in the Circles?[/quote]They will if they're concerned with mages gaining too much power.

[quote]Not only does this not make any sense, it has no basis in reality.[/quote]Are you done being snide?

[quote]The Circle has never been autonomous.  It is as much a part of the Chantry as the Grand Cathedral or the local Chantry Houses.[/quote]Absolutely incorret. The Circle is autonomous per the Nevarran Accord. Read WoT, and stop spreading misinformation.

[quote]The exact opposite is true.  Certainly the First Enchanter can and should have the authority to administrate the Circle they serve, but Templars must have the power and authority to do what is necessary.[/quote]And this is a violation of the Nevarran Accord.

[quote]Orsino and his blood mages never would have survived to spread their corruption under a Knight-Commander with the authority to investigate them as necessary.  Meredith should never have had to ask Orsino for permission to search the mage quarters, for example.  If she had reason to suspect Blood Magic in the Circle, and she did, then the right of search and seizure should have been hers.[/quote]Templars should have no authority in the circles at all. That isn't their proper role, and never was.

[quote]The core of the current conflict is the perceived abuse of power.[/quote]And yet, I've heard repeatedly, that abuse is simply a symptom of the real problem - templars have arbitrary authority they shouldn't.

[quote]Of course it would decrease with better oversight.  If mages with nothing to hide no longer have to fear random abuse of power, they have no reason to complain.  And those with something to hide should be afraid.[/quote]You can't even being to understand the core issues - that's obvious. I think we're done here.

[quote]Your proposal is absurd, for all the reasons already expanded on by others.  You would hand mages the world on a platter at the expense of everyone else.  That is what is unacceptable.[/quote]. Someone is paranoid, and it isn't me.

How much ambition do southern thedosian magi have to rule Thedas? Zero. The thousand year College of Enchanters Loyalist-Aequitarian alliance proves that.

The Circle needs a few tools to protect itself, and should be given a real opportunity to use their magic for the pubic good.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 08 janvier 2014 - 07:00 .

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

Veruin wrote...

In Exile wrote...
If mages can provide infinite sources of water then that'll radically change the structure of Thedosian society, in a good way. Water doesn't have to be expensive (and, in fact, if the magical means to produce it are pretty cost-effective it can be very cheap) so it wouldn't lead to an aggregation of wealth but it would lead to a serioius improvement in standard of living.

It would improve the standard of living, but it would also lead to even MORE reliance on mages/magic.

I don't think they can produce actual water, just manipulate molecules in the air, giving them a finite source of water. But what about using magic to purify water sources in towns, etc.?

Or use elemental magic to make ice, then as that ice melts you have a source of pure water.

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Or use elemental magic to make ice, then as that ice melts you have a source of pure water.

Cone of deliciously cold beverage? 

[lil yonce]

In Exile wrote...
I don't think this is feasible in practice. Think about it: you're asking for taxation across all of Thedas at every level of society to fund an autonomous military force that oversees and regulates the most powerful force in Thedas and is answerable to... exactly no one. We've seen in DA:O the number of times GWs get into trouble for wandering about as an international organization,

Its voluntary - and there are people will fund such things. The Seekers would no longer be a military force - not anymore than the census bureau is one. Their numbers would be reduced. And they are reponsible to the public.

And what happens if Kingdom A and Kingdom B go to war? Are their mages supposed to be neutral?

Absolutely. I stated that in another post, I believe.

Are they still going to be taxed?

Yes. Did they stop living in Kingdom A or B because those countries are at war?

What if they want to pull a Loghain, and offer freedom from this international organization in return for fealty and status? Mage rebellion all over again?

If an individual circle accepts, its considered rogue from the Circle of Magi, and can be appropriately handled.

That's not true. An international fund has a low per country contribution, and these people will still live inside the borders of a particular nation. Political manuevering to appoint loyal nationals to head the local division, and then flood them with money and promises of status to have the local Circle answer to the local sovereign. Problem solved. Or, well, at least for the kingdoms who would now indirectly control a lot of mage power.  

It will never be able to prevent bribes entirely, but public knowledge of their benefactors can aid transparency, perhaps spur commitment from the public to the cause.

And I don't want "local divisions".  I'm not certain that exisits now anyway - the only branch/headquarters I know of is in Val Royeaux.

And I want Seekers to be one group.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 29 décembre 2013 - 09:29 .

[dragonflight288]

In Exile wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Or use elemental magic to make ice, then as that ice melts you have a source of pure water.

Cone of deliciously cold beverage? 

Oooh!!! Root Beer, Mountain Dew or Cream Soda would be preferable.

[In Exile]

Youth4Ever wrote...
Its voluntary - and there are people will fund such things. The Seekers would no longer be a military force anymore than census bureau. Their numbers would be reduced. And they are reponsible to the public.

Who is "the public"? There is no notion of a "public" or a demoncracy in Thedas. That's grounds for an open revolution. ala the French/American Revolutions. The peasants are subsistence farmers being taxed by their local nobility, who are then taxed up the chain. They presumably tithe to the Chantry, and now you're saying they should willing give whatever they have left... because, what, exactly? 

You're also advocating for some kind of sense of democtratic and civic responsibility that, again, doesn't exist in Thedas.

Absolutely. I stated that in another post, I believe.

That's impossible. Especially since you have your internationally bankrupt organization of unarmed nobodies who answer to no one in particular running the show. What, do you think they write a report to their local representative? There's no elected political body. If they answer to anyone it's to the authority of the sovereign, who will certainly order them to take part in the war. 

Yes. Did they stop living in Kingdom A or B because those countries are at war?

So now you've got a population of peasants who are taxed at two levels - church and state - and then taxed at a higher level because of war, and now since we're talking about voluntary taxation, you actually believe these people will still give up their money to fund the Circles while their working age adults are off dying in wars?

If an individual circle accepts, its considered rogue from the Circle of Magi, and can be appropriately handled.

With what, exactly? The Seekers don't have an army. Are you saying other Circles are going to start invading a country? And you think that won't trigger a war? And why woudl those Circles do it? What could possibly compell them? 

It will never be able to prevent bribes entirely, but public knowledge of their benefactors can aid transparency, perhaps spur commitment from the public to the cause.  

This isn't 2012. Public knowledge - even with a population that's as surprislingly literate as the one in Thedas - is pretty much impossible. You think a farming village in the ass end of Ferelden is going to debate the finer points of whether your Seekers are fulfilling accountability duties? That barely happens IRL today with local government. 

Unless there inspectors, those guys could be getitng high off skuma (or whatever the Thedosian drug of choice is) and writing false reports, and no one would be the wiser. 

And if you start talking about state-sanctioned regulation, well that all goes through the Sovereign and so, again, you've made your supposedly international organization another arm of the state. 

And I don't want "local divisions".  I'm not certain that exisits now anyway - the only branch/headquarters I know of is in Val Royeaux.

And I want Seekers to be one group.

That's impossible. This kind of thing doesn't even really exist today, IRL, with the UN. It won't exist in Thedas. 

Modifié par In Exile, 29 décembre 2013 - 09:29 .