203 réponses à ce sujet

[lil yonce]

@In Exile; I can't respond to you again today, as I've got things to do. We can pick this up tomorrow.

[In Exile]

Youth4Ever wrote...

@In Exile; I can't respond to you again today, as I've got things to do. We can pick this up tomorrow.

No worries. 

We can chat via PM too. Feel free to add me as a friend. 

[lil yonce]

[quote]In Exile wrote...
Who is "the public"?[/quote]The thedosian nobility will suffice.

[quote]There is no notion of a "public" or a demoncracy in Thedas. That's grounds for an open revolution. ala the French/American Revolutions. The peasants are subsistence farmers being taxed by their local nobility, who are then taxed up the chain. They presumably tithe to the Chantry, and now you're saying they should willing give whatever they have left... because, what, exactly?[/quote]I suggest the peasantry should donate - out of a sense of philanthropy if nothing else - there will be children in their communities sent to circles, and they will be impacted by what the circle does - but they don't have to - and I don't really care if they don't at present.

That thedosian nobility participates is what's most important - and I believe they will as dealing with circles is a double-edged sword - there is ample benefit and economic opportunity to be had from a freer circle - but it must be weighed against possible magi takeover of domestic infrastructures.

[quote]You're also advocating for some kind of sense of democtratic and civic responsibility that, again, doesn't exist in Thedas.[/quote]Advocating a humanitarian responsibility that certainly can be felt regardless of government is a more accurate description IMO - but again - they don't have to fund the Seekers if they'd rather not.

[quote]That's impossible.[/quote]Why is that? Mages are supposed to be neutral in international wars at present, and we've no evidence they haven't been. And in my reform, they're still connected to the Chantry, and the Chantry has required their neutrality in the past.

[quote]Especially since you have your internationally bankrupt organization of unarmed nobodies who answer to no one in particular running the show.[/quote]They will answer to an international nobility, and to the crowns of thedas on a continental plane.

[quote]What, do you think they write a report to their local representative?[/quote] No. They need only conduct their surveys and investigations - publish them for public consumption - and submit them to joint chantry-circle magic use committees for use in oversight.

[quote]There's no elected political body. If they answer to anyone it's to the authority of the sovereign, who will certainly order them to take part in the war.[/quote]Why would Seekers take part in a war if they are no longer a military force?

Their role is to collect data and that's it.

[quote]and now since we're talking about voluntary taxation, you actually believe these people will still give up their money to fund the Circles while their working age adults are off dying in wars?[/quote]Peasants don't have to donate one copper if they don't wish to.

And concerning the nobility, merchants, and crowns whom I believe will donate - I predict their benefit from circle operations will be great enough that there will be no real reason to **** at the Circle for Seeker oversight costs.

[quote]With what, exactly? The Seekers don't have an army.[/quote]Step on the throat.

First - cutting their lyrium supply from the Chantry completely. Cutting off their physical supply lines to Orzammar if necessary.

And this is perhaps one rare occasion templars on circle grounds could step in - not to perform an annulment necessarily - but to occupy a circle if it comes to that.

A joint-committee would have to determine further action - action mostly likely tailored to respond to such a situation.

And to comment on the original premise - "freedom from the Seekers for fealty and status": the mages - if they're smart about their operations - should have plenty status in their home countries - and not need it spelled out on some paper signed by an administrator.

And why swear obedience to a nation that won't have the circle's interests at heart - at least not before its own?

They'll likely be stricter on magic use to prevent a circle takeover of government - they will have final say on all magical matters - their expectations to benefit from the circle will be high; perhaps even at the circle's expense - and likely they'll militarize it for "defense" or conquests abroad.

They would be more likely to do these things than a Chantry and templar order forced into leniance - IMO.

The Seekers make and file reports to half-circle run committees - I'm not certain what sort of threat they are. But what sort of scenario are you imagining?

[quote]Are you saying other Circles are going to start invading a country?[/quote]No. I didn't say that - and I'm not saying that.

[quote]And you think that won't trigger a war? And why woudl those Circles do it? What could possibly compell them?[/quote]Again - I didn't say that - and I'm not saying that.

[quote]This isn't 2012. Public knowledge - even with a population that's as surprislingly literate as the one in Thedas - is pretty much impossible. You think a farming village in the ass end of Ferelden is going to debate the finer points of whether your Seekers are fulfilling accountability duties? That barely happens IRL today with local government.[/quote]I don't care about them much at present. Nobility participation is what matters most.

[quote]Unless there inspectors, those guys could be getitng high off skuma (or whatever the Thedosian drug of choice is) and writing false reports, and no one would be the wiser.[/quote]What "guys"? The Seekers? The hill people?

And the Seekers are inspectors if that's a question you're asking.

The nobility, merchants, and crowns that fund the Seekers will be interested in accurate reports - I don't think they want to learn one day that most of Thedas is owned by the circles of magi - that templars have no magic annulling powers when a need for it arises - learn that they paid for bull****.

[quote]And if you start talking about state-sanctioned regulation, well that all goes through the Sovereign and so, again, you've made your supposedly international organization another arm of the state.[/quote]I'm not entertaining state-sanctioned anything.

[quote]That's impossible. This kind of thing doesn't even really exist today, IRL, with the UN. It won't exist in Thedas.[/quote]The UN is one of the most fake institutions in the world. Their multiple offices are used just as much if not more as bases to support global interests of important member nations as they are to fight world catastrophes, so the UN having multiple offices is not something I really want to copy - and it doesn't seem as though the Seekers exist in every city with a circle.

You never see or hear of a branch in Ferelden or Kirkwall - for example - or even in the area. The only place they seem to maintain any presence is at the Grand Cathedral.

If there were divisions - likely a Nevarran like Cassandra in DotS should stay at her "local branch" in Nevarra rather than serve in Orlais.

If they exist - I suppose we just don't know about them - and that's a bad sign for a few reasons itself. I already dislike that the one we know about is within shouting distance of the Grand Cathedral.

Seekers seemingly are "sent" to investigate - but if "local divisions" must exist - I want no more than two or three for the continent. Preferably in some uninhabited part of the Free Marches.

[lil yonce]

Vandicus wrote...
The templars are a well-trained, and (extraordinarily) well-armed standing army. It seems the full templars are paid rather well by the standards of your average inhabitant of Thedas. If the Chantry indeed makes no profit on mages, they'd have to be sinking in a fortune to maintain a force this size across a continent.

Their "defense spending" is likely through the roof. Perhaps greater than that of most of Thedas combined - and all financed by the people of Thedas through tithes.

I want to bust them down to guards. Smaller numbers and less importance in the budget.

[Star fury]

Compromise is for sissies!

[Ieldra]

OP, you suggest a few intriguing possibilities.

The big problem, however, is that in all of your scenarios the Circles remain bound to the political and economic interests of the Chantry, economically by the lyrium trade and politically by the power to decide who may leave the Circle and for what purpose, and by the complete knowledge of anything mages do outside of their Circles, i.e. all their interactions with non-mages.

Compromise will ultimately fail without the Circles having the right and opportunity to enact policies of their own, independently from the Chantry. You say the involvement of the templars in the everyday business of the Circle must be limited to controlling possible abuses of magic, and I agree. However, as long as the Chantry can deny a mage the permission to leave their Circle, no mage will ever be able to do anything against the Chantry's interests, even in things unrelated to the regulation of magic.

In other words, for me it is not acceptable that the Circles remain the vassals of the Chantry. Most notably, I would never accept the Chantry's right to call the Circles to war.

[MissOuJ]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
The templars are a well-trained, and (extraordinarily) well-armed standing army. It seems the full templars are paid rather well by the standards of your average inhabitant of Thedas. If the Chantry indeed makes no profit on mages, they'd have to be sinking in a fortune to maintain a force this size across a continent.

Their "defense spending" is likely through the roof. Perhaps greater than that of most of Thedas combined - and all financed by the people of Thedas through tithes.

This is incorrect -- the Chantry gets income from the enchantments and items / potions made by the Formari -- which makes the Rite of Tranquility even more problematic, since at least part of the Chanty's income is dependent on how many mages they make Tranquil, even though that is supposed to be the absolute last resort short of killing the mage in question.

But I agree: the level of militarism of the Templars is both dehumanizing (both to the mages and the Templars themselves) and expensive. They ought to be trained with the mages to act as guardians, and if DA:O and DA2 taught me something, its that the worst enemy of a mage is another hostile mage, so mages could actually work with the Templars to combat blood mages / slaver mages / magisters / darkspawn mages / posession victims, which would make the Order more effective in what it tries to achieve (ie. protect both mages and regular people from hostile magic and mages)

[lil yonce]

Ieldra2 wrote...
The big problem, however, is that in all of your scenarios the Circles remain bound to the political and economic interests of the Chantry, economically by the lyrium trade

Its a control on the Circle to prevent or limit abuses - though I want the circles to be able to buy as much lyrium as they feel it needs.

and politically by the power to decide who may leave the Circle and for what purpose,

I never said the Chantry can do that. That sort of thing would be under circle jurisdiction.

and by the complete knowledge of anything mages do outside of their Circles, i.e. all their interactions with non-mages.

Transparency to limit and prevent unregulated use or misuse of magic - that's all.

And I want all regulation on magic use outside circles decided jointly - the Chantry cannot simply say, "we declare this unlawful. stop doing it."

Regulation must have approval from both sides. The Circle needs some regulation beyond its own word, and the Chantry under Justinia V appears to be the only institution in Thedas willing to give fair relations a shot.

Compromise will ultimately fail without the Circles having the right and opportunity to enact policies of their own, independently from the Chantry.

They can set their own individual circle policies and determine Circle of Magi direction, that's a necessity.

But I don't see how the Circle of Magi can operate with no joint regulator at all.

If its not the Chantry it needs to be some other international organization.

I won't leave it up to the circle to police itself - to decide alone what is acceptable study and what is not.

I think that is too reckless.

And I'm predicting vested interest from nations and nobility will help the circles along, pressuring the Chantry against actions that would limit the usefulness of magi.

You say the involvement of the templars in the everyday business of the Circle must be limited to controlling possible abuses of magic, and I agree. However, as long as the Chantry can deny a mage the permission to leave their Circle, no mage will ever be able to do anything against the Chantry's interests, even in things unrelated to the regulation of magic.

Again - I didn't say that.

I want mages to have a more permanment presence outside their towers overall, and do it through establishing trade, businesses, and next become residents in the places they work.

In other words, for me it is not acceptable that the Circles remain the vassals of the Chantry. Most notably, I would never accept the Chantry's right to call the Circles to war.

In my system, the circle can decline the Chantry's call to action - they just can't declare war on anyone. Their neutrality is still enforced.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 13 janvier 2014 - 01:31 .

[lil yonce]

MissOuJ wrote...
This is incorrect -- the Chantry gets income from the enchantments and items / potions made by the Formari

And where is that stated?

[MissOuJ]

Youth4Ever wrote...

MissOuJ wrote...
This is incorrect -- the Chantry gets income from the enchantments and items / potions made by the Formari

And where is that stated?

The Tranquil mage in the Ostagar camp says it outright, and the dialogue of the Formari mage at the Kirkwall Gallows tells she gets beaten if anything is stolen -- kinda hard to imagine Tranquil mages beating each other over stolen merchandise.

[Vandicus]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
The templars are a well-trained, and (extraordinarily) well-armed standing army. It seems the full templars are paid rather well by the standards of your average inhabitant of Thedas. If the Chantry indeed makes no profit on mages, they'd have to be sinking in a fortune to maintain a force this size across a continent.

Their "defense spending" is likely through the roof. Perhaps greater than that of most of Thedas combined - and all financed by the people of Thedas through tithes.

I want to bust them down to guards. Smaller numbers and less importance in the budget.

Outside of their role as guardians of the Circle, Templars have a number of positive influences that are worth perserving imo.

1. A merit-oriented way for peasants to advance in life. Working 14 hours a day on the farm leaves little opportunity to begin an enterprise. The existence of the templars allows for movement between social classes, which is necessary for society to advance over time.
2. An armed and well-trained element of the peasant class. Instead of all well-trained warriors belonging exclusively to the noble caste, you have a very large number of people who are as trained, if not better trained, than your average noble. This allows the Chantry to check the power and excess of the nobility towards peasants even more than the Catholic Church did.
3.  Most importantly, they're Thedas's greatest defense against Tevinter. Quite frankly, templars in the numbers we have them aren't even necessary if we only consider their role as guarding Circles. Their role could even be performed(though less effectively) by local forces controlled by sovereigns. But the system effectively churned out a massive army of mage-killers that act as an effective deterrent against any invasion from Tevinter. Or it did before the Templars broke off from the Chantry and now the mages and templars are going to inflict massive damage to each others's forces.

*EDIT

In any other scenario where the rest of Thedas does not use blood magic against Tevinter, they're effectively fighting handi-capped. Tevinter gets blood magic, rest of Thedas gets anti-magic. If anti-magic is removed from the equation, the rest of Thedas needs to replace it with blood magic.

Modifié par Vandicus, 30 décembre 2013 - 07:41 .

[lil yonce]

MissOuJ wrote...
The Tranquil mage in the Ostagar camp says it outright,

He doesn't say anything like that. He says enchantment provides the circles their wealth. He doesn't say the Chantry makes coin from enchanment.

and the dialogue of the Formari mage at the Kirkwall Gallows tells she gets beaten if anything is stolen -- kinda hard to imagine Tranquil mages beating each other over stolen merchandise.

Stealing from circle businesses is very likely against circle law, and the Kirkwall templars - however harsh - decide punishment for lawbreakers. There is no indication from this that the Chantry generates coin from the circles.

I don't believe there is any indication at all.

The circles at present don't even appear to make enough coin for themselves, let alone the chantry, considering lyrium they need is always in short supply.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 30 décembre 2013 - 08:26 .

[Vandicus]

Youth4Ever wrote...

MissOuJ wrote...
The Tranquil mage in the Ostagar camp says it outright,

He doesn't say anything like that. He says enchantment provides the circles their wealth. He doesn't say the Chantry makes coin from enchanment.

and the dialogue of the Formari mage at the Kirkwall Gallows tells she gets beaten if anything is stolen -- kinda hard to imagine Tranquil mages beating each other over stolen merchandise.

Stealing from circle businesses is very likely against circle law, and as the Kirkwall templars - however harsh - decide punishment for lawbreakers. There is no indication from this that the Chantry generate coin from the circles.

I don't believe there is any indication at all.

The circles at present don't even appear to make enough coin for themselves, let alone the chantry, considering lyrium they need is always in short supply.

They're beating the shopkeeper, not the thief.

[MissOuJ]

Youth4Ever wrote...

MissOuJ wrote...
The Tranquil mage in the Ostagar camp says it outright,

He doesn't say anything like that. He says enchantment provides the circles their wealth. He doesn't say the Chantry makes coin from enchanment.

and the dialogue of the Formari mage at the Kirkwall Gallows tells she gets beaten if anything is stolen -- kinda hard to imagine Tranquil mages beating each other over stolen merchandise.

Stealing from circle businesses is very likely against circle law, and as the Kirkwall templars - however harsh - decide punishment for lawbreakers. There is no indication from this that the Chantry generate coin from the circles.

I don't believe there is any indication at all.

The circles at present don't even appear to make enough coin for themselves, let alone the chantry, considering lyrium they need is always in short supply.

The Circles are under Chantry control. Also, mages aren't really given any possessions of their own, except the robes at their backs and their staffs -- everything else is Circle (ie. Chantry) property. The Circle is also the home of the Templars, so even if the Formari wares don't go to the Chantry, they at least go to the upkeep of the Templars. Either way, the Chantry profits.

Also, law that punishes the victim isn't much of a law.

In addition, since the Chantry has enough money to start building a second Chantry -- or at least a huge statue of Andraste -- in Kirkwall (where the Qunari used to be) I doubt they're hard-pressed for cash.

Modifié par MissOuJ, 30 décembre 2013 - 08:06 .

[lil yonce]

Vandicus wrote...
Outside of their role as guardians of the Circle, Templars have a number of positive influences that are worth perserving imo.
1. A merit-oriented way for peasants to advance in life. Working 14 hours a day on the farm leaves little opportunity to begin an enterprise. The existence of the templars allows for movement between social classes, which is necessary for society to advance over time.

I don't like the templars much. Its necessary to Chantry order to have people to oppose and people to hate.

Their #1 tenet from WoT- "Magic is a corrupting influence in the world."  They chose that over - "Magic is meant to serve man, and never to rule over him." Or even over something like - "Magic is never meant to rule over man."

They've made southern thedosian magi into an enemy they have no desire to be [the Aequitarian-Loyalist alliance that dominated the College of Enchanters for about a thousand years proves that] so they can build up their military machine in the templars - so people will become hawkish and accept a more militant and activist stance around thedas forgetting that the Chantry and templars are Orlesian institutions.

Who has the most templars? Orlais. And who had the second most? Kirkwall - a city of great Orlesian interest - a city where templars have been used twice to usurp government in favor of Orlesian interests.

Templars [armed Orlesian soldiers in a different uniform and the religious constitution to ensure conflict in non-Andrastian lands] were sent to the Dales to stir the pot when the first attempted Orlesian conquest failed.

The Empress wants to call the templars and circle to her aid in the civil war and expects the Divine to comply - but Ferelden couldn't get templar or circle aid to liberate itself from an Orlesian invasion, and Loghain had to subvert the Chantry to attempt securing circle aid for his civil war.

The Calling demonstrates how easily Orlais uses templars/circle to their gain - an Orlesian First Enchanter in Ferelden with Orlesian templars to back him in subjugating the circle and making deals to ensure Orlais' survival in the Architect's plans.

The templar job is a rather foul one at present, and the sooner another organization comes about to guard circles, the better.

They've been a rogue faction long before the current crisis - they blew off what's probably the closest thing to intergovernmental, international law Thedas has in The Nevarran Accord by taking power from an autonomous Circle of Magi.

2. An armed and well-trained element of the peasant class. Instead of all well-trained warriors belonging exclusively to the noble caste, you have a very large number of people who are as trained, if not better trained, than your average noble. This allows the Chantry to check the power and excess of the nobility towards peasants even more than the Catholic Church did.

Peasant indoctrination, templar loyalty to the Chantry - and Chantry loyalty to Orlais - should scare the **** out of everyone not Orlesian.

3.  Most importantly, they're Thedas's greatest defense against Tevinter. Quite frankly, templars in the numbers we have them aren't even necessary if we only consider their role as guarding Circles. Their role could even be performed(though less effectively) by local forces controlled by sovereigns. But the system effectively churned out a massive army of mage-killers that act as an effective deterrent against any invasion from Tevinter. Or it did before the Templars broke off from the Chantry and now the mages and templars are going to inflict massive damage to each others's forces.

But you don't need a standing army to fight mages in Tevinter, and certainly not when Tevinter mages are locked in a centuries old war with Qunari - they're no threat at present.

And though Tevinter is magic-dominated politically, and though their mages are powerful, they are still an extreme minority, and raise mundane armies for conquest, and a mundane army no matter how well trained is one that can be fought without a templar army at the ready in your borders.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 31 décembre 2013 - 09:25 .

[MisterJB]

Frankly, the system proposed here reduces control over the Circle while increasing reliance upon mages around Southern Thedas without creating any sort of restrictions applied to mages only that could prevent them from dominating the entire infrastructure within a few generations. It asks for a lot and gives absolutely nothing in return.
It is no reasonable compromise, only a poorly disguised offensive.

Modifié par MisterJB, 30 décembre 2013 - 08:58 .

[lil yonce]

MisterJB wrote...
Frankly, the system proposed here reduces control over the Circle while increasing reliance upon mages around Southern Thedas without creating any sort of restrictions applied to mages only that could prevent them from dominating the entire infrastructure within a few generations. It asks for a lot and gives absolutely nothing in return.
It is no reasonable compromise, only a poorly disguised offensive.

Says the templar apologist. 

[lil yonce]

Vandicus wrote...
They're beating the shopkeeper, not the thief.

I didn't say Kirkwall templars were just. If they can't catch the thief, they'll settle for the tranquil or mage - and likely be a thousand times harder on them than a mundane thief.

But the assertion that templars beat tranquil or mages because stolen goods means a loss of chantry profits - I'm not seeing the support for that.

[Asdrubael Vect]

"Mages and Orlais Chantry Templars compromise":D


For me this is a utopian fairytale, but even fairytales have some realism hidden inside...so thats ALL that we need to do such heaven.....

1)EQUAL RIGHTS AND LAWS for mages and non-mages(especially those who serve in Templars)

a)free mages from Concentration Chantry Circles
b)give them rights, freedoms, titles(allow to officially be nobles, involved in politics), personal property's/land's-give mages all rights and law protection what any peoples of thedas kingdoms have.


2)NO ORLAIS CHANTRY CIRCLES, NO MINDLESS peasant FANATICS

a)Remove Orlais Chantry from Templars and Cirlces
b)Ban Chantry propoganda-bull**** fairytales for mages, non-mages and Templars
c)No drugs for Templars

3)NO ANY RIGHTS OF ANULMENT, AND NO EXALTED MARCHES

4)Circles only as schools/research centers, Templars only as police/bodyguard forces who involves in Circles only when Cirlces ask for them

a)Better education for mages who study in Circles, no forced education and no "children hunting" by Templars
b)no forced harrowing and not any tranquil(only for dangerous mages AND NON-MAGES/Templars criminals who  are very valuable to live and only with agreement of Circle Mages,Goverment and Templars tribunal.)
c)Better education and requirement for peoples who want to serve as Templars...all Templars must pass Harrowing before they can be trust to be Templars
d)Allow mages and dwarfs to serve as Templars, NO more only non-mages

Without this "there is will be no compromise" with Templars and Orlais Chantry and never be.

it will be easier to destroy the remaining Templar Order and influence of Orlais Chantry and create a new-old system of Cirlces without Chantry

for now the only WORKING solution of mages and templars compromise is Tevinter, you can hate it, you can not like it but this is the only working system of compromise so deal with it

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 30 décembre 2013 - 09:16 .

[Lord Raijin]

MissOuJ wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

MissOuJ wrote...
This is incorrect -- the Chantry gets income from the enchantments and items / potions made by the Formari

And where is that stated?

The Tranquil mage in the Ostagar camp says it outright, and the dialogue of the Formari mage at the Kirkwall Gallows tells she gets beaten if anything is stolen -- kinda hard to imagine Tranquil mages beating each other over stolen merchandise.

The tranquil says nothing about the Chantry getting income from the enchantments that the tranquil produces. Clearly, as stated, the Chantry does not financially support the Circle, and that the Circle must heavily depend on enchantments to financially survive.

[Vandicus]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Vandicus wrote...
They're beating the shopkeeper, not the thief.

I didn't say Kirkwall templars were just. If they can't catch the thief, they'll settle for the tranquil or mage - and likely be a thousand times harder on them than a mundane thief. 

But the assertion that templars beat tranquil or mages because stolen goods means a loss of chantry profits - I'm not seeing the support for that.

Why would they bother beating the Tranquil if it has no relation to them? Oh, the mages have been robbed(like we really give a damn, Templars allegedly hate mages right?), let's go beat the guy who got robbed to solve the problem(presumably they would have only been notified by the mages in the first place, so the mages are asking templars to beat the Tranquils?). The scenario doesn't make sense except when the Templars are beating the Tranquil for losing something of value to the Templars. If the object is only of value to the mages, then the Templars probably wouldn't care all that much, and the mages probably wouldn't notify them if they knew that that'd get the Tranquil beaten for no apparent reason.

Its not exactly rock solid evidence, but it does imply that the Templars have a direct relation to the income activities of magic shops.

[Vandicus]

Lord Raijin wrote...

MissOuJ wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

MissOuJ wrote...
This is incorrect -- the Chantry gets income from the enchantments and items / potions made by the Formari

And where is that stated?

The Tranquil mage in the Ostagar camp says it outright, and the dialogue of the Formari mage at the Kirkwall Gallows tells she gets beaten if anything is stolen -- kinda hard to imagine Tranquil mages beating each other over stolen merchandise.

The tranquil says nothing about the Chantry getting income from the enchantments that the tranquil produces. Clearly, as stated, the Chantry does not financially support the Circle, and that the Circle must heavily depend on enchantments to financially survive.

The question is not whether the Chantry financially supports the Circle, but whether the Circle supports the Chantry. Specifically whether funding for the Templar organization is related to the Circle's sources of income.

[MisterJB]

Youth4Ever wrote...
And if magic raises the standard of living for all thedosians?

If  say, agriculture florishes, and food becomes abundant as a result of magic's involvement in crop growing, isn't that a tragedy if it wasn't used?

If mundane are freed from field labor and spend their time and coin on education instead? 

If a food surplus that, say, permits Nevarra to feed the barren Anderfels -  in these scenarios, isn't magic use being condemned to finance "bare necessities only," a tragedy?

As our own world proves it, technology can produce effects that surpass anything magic has been known to do in Thedas and it would not leave one class of people utterly dependant to another based on the conditions of birth.
Yould have magic dominate the infrastructure of society but if it does, then society is dominated by mages who will then be free to decide what goes and what does not by using the threat of restricting magic to themselves.
That is unnaceptable.

And what if they've made all the coin they can reasonably make from magic and enchantments without branching out?

It's never going to happen. If, for instance, mages now sell items only to the very wealthy, as society progresses and more people become economically capable, the mages will have opportunies to sell to a larger public without infringing upon the avenues of income that ensure the livelihood and independence of non-mages.

What if the RoT is eliminated in its current form - if making tranquil is no longer an option? If magic can be removed from a wielder without severing their connection to the Fade? The interest in that, and the preliminary research for it is there.

Make more Tranquil with the specific purpose of working.
You suggest dominating non-magical society for the sake of not lobotomizing a fe mages and then call it compromise?

Enchantment would be gone, and so would all Circle income in your system. Mages must branch out if the Circle is to survive  - unless the people of Thedas want to pay for it, that is.

Was that a threat? I daresay magical terrorists would be easier to deal with than mages on the list of the 15 wealthiest men in Thedas.

And who says they don't have monopolies, or any over-arching influence on industries already?

No evidence of it. Only speculation on your part that the Nevarran mages have some sort of influence on the mining industry of Nevarra when TWoT suggests that their income comes from their services as mummifiers.

If magi enchant rudimentary mechanized reapers, do they control agriculture - any more than they control the knife industry if enchanted penknives are a best-seller?

Yes, considering how that would enable them to starve entire populations if their whims are not attended to.

[MisterJB]

Youth4Ever wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Frankly, the system proposed here reduces control over the Circle while increasing reliance upon mages around Southern Thedas without creating any sort of restrictions applied to mages only that could prevent them from dominating the entire infrastructure within a few generations. It asks for a lot and gives absolutely nothing in return.
It is no reasonable compromise, only a poorly disguised offensive.

Says the templar apologist. 

Mage supremacist.

[Lord Raijin]

Vandicus wrote...

The question is not whether the Chantry financially supports the Circle, but whether the Circle supports the Chantry. Specifically whether funding for the Templar organization is related to the Circle's sources of income.

If were speaking in terms of finance I'm certain the Chantry manages to get a percentage on the profits that the Circle makes with enchantment items.