203 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

In Exile wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Will she be alive without the Spirit? If yes, then she is indeed alive. If no, then she is just a walking talking corpse.

It's good to know that all those people who need machines to live are zombies! I'm going to call up my grandfather and let him know that because of his dialysis machine, he's actually not alive but a walking, talking corpse.  

I am certain you are intellegent enough to make the distinction between a piece of technological equipment, and a transdimensional being. I am also certain that you are intellegent enough to comprehend the purpose of the simplification I made. I am not entirely certain about what you were trying to accomplish by your post though.

[In Exile]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I am certain you are intellegent enough to make the distinction between a piece of technological equipment, and a transdimensional being. I am also certain that you are intellegent enough to comprehend the purpose of the simplification I made. I am not entirely certain about what you were trying to accomplish by your post though.

I'm well aware of the point you tried to make. I am saying you're wrong, and that based on your post alone, there's no reason to believe there's any difference between what the Spirit is doing to what a dialysis machine does. I know you believe there is, and what I am telling is you is that you have to actually spell out what is different. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

In Exile wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I am certain you are intellegent enough to make the distinction between a piece of technological equipment, and a transdimensional being. I am also certain that you are intellegent enough to comprehend the purpose of the simplification I made. I am not entirely certain about what you were trying to accomplish by your post though.

I'm well aware of the point you tried to make. I am saying you're wrong, and that based on your post alone, there's no reason to believe there's any difference between what the Spirit is doing to what a dialysis machine does. I know you believe there is, and what I am telling is you is that you have to actually spell out what is different. 

I suppose you also think that Sophia Dryden was entirely alive and well in Soldier's Peak?

The difference is that Evangelina is DEAD, but the spirit that is inhabiting her corpse is preventing the end of her existence. A dialysis machine keeps the person alive.
I do not know of any machine that brings back people from death, and then keeps them alive indefinitely. But maybe you can enlighten me.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 31 décembre 2013 - 03:10 .

[lil yonce]

[quote]Peasants aren't swimming in free money.[/quote]I didn't say they were - and I'm not requiring anything from them. If they want to donate fine - if they don't - I don't particularly care.

[quote]And more importantly, most aren't being affected. Those with children who happen to be mages are, but most will never have mage children.[/quote]And there's no sense of community or solidarity in any thedosian village - is that what you're saying?

Of course there is.

For example - the Rivaini in particular are very supportive of one another though they have little - and as being a mage in their culture isn't black sin - in fact mages fill a rather important role in their society - I certainly can see peasants being supportive of such an initiative.

Especially once they hear of the Dairsmuid annulment.

[quote]Okay, so the nobles (like Arl Eamon) now fund a Circle where their children and heirs are being sent to - they hold the purpose strings. What makes you think that giving such nobles economic power wouldn't give them tremendous leverage. Think about what Arl Howe would do if he could buy off mages. You think that will somehow achieve neutrality? Or will you have nobles pay for foreign Circles?[/quote]First - I'm not certain what you mean by "funding the Circle". I've provided an example to dragonflight288 on the first page of what I mean concerning nobility benefit.

They can invest in circle operations perhaps.

They can buy enchantments and circle magic for regulated use - and all major projects outside circle borders would require joint chantry-circle approval.

And if "funding the circle" is selling enchantments and something like healing magic or potions to nobility - the Circle does that now and there's no evidence they've been corrupted by the nobility.

Second - "being bought" is the kind of corruption independent Seekers would watch for. And I'm still not certain what you're imagining to be honest - bribe the circle to do what?

[quote]Think about it from the perspective of Isolde: do you think she's against mages taking over domestic infrastructure? She'd have made her son Arl if she could have.[/quote]She may not - but most of the nobility will - and unless Arl Eamon is significantly richer than most of them combined - his coin will mean little to the circle.

Vested interest is spread around - it always will be - and thus the circle can't gain control of all things.

[quote]What I am saying is that the very idea of a humanitarian endeavour doesn't exist in Thedas.[/quote]And I think you're wrong on that point - again I will point to the Rivaini to argue it.

And to think thedosians aren't capable of compassionate action or supporting their communities because explicit humanitarianism isn't a thing yet - I think that's very cynical or dumb - or both.

[quote]And even if did, just like IRL, there's no safeguard in place for exploitation. You're giving a lot of powerful nobles a direct conduit to mages and there's no counterbalance in place.[/quote]The Chantry still has a job to do in this - they sit on committees that regulate and monitor magic use - so while the circles can set their economic policies and commercial goals - they have to work with the Chantry for major project approval outside circles - and as the Chantry has historically worked very hard to subvert magic's influence in society for doing so preserves their own power base - they simply will not agree to everything the circles want to do.

One thing may be initially proposed to a joint committee and by the time an agreement is reached it comes out looking quite different from the original proposal.

[quote]The Mages weren't neutral[...][/quote]The Circle of Magi has been neutral - the Circle system is going to continue in my system and remain connected to the Chantry - thus the Chantry precedent for it is useful and all care about.

They've been neutral - its a good thing for the most part - they'll remain so.

[quote]You're suggesting that the military might of the Chantry is taken away, as I understand it, and then the Seekers have a say. If all you're really suggesting is that the Chantry controls the templars and some international third party is supposed to oversee the Chantry's templars, then you've complete failed to change the system because your organization has no power.[/quote]No - I'm not taking Circle guardianship away. I'm willing to let the templars occupy a rogue circle until further action decided by chantry-circle higher ups is taken - and any circle refusing to observe neutrality is rogue.

[quote]There's no such thing! These are basically despotic rulers. They don't have an international council of nations. The free marchers don't really like each other, Orlais wants to absorb Ferelden instead of sit on a UN council with it, and the Anderfels don't even have a functioning government beside the GWs. [/quote]I don't need the nations of Thedas to be part of an international organization to have the Seekers conduct reports from a pooled fund.

You want Circle oversight - you send coin to the Seekers.

I don't have to be part of some international organization to fund free press or public television - why must the nobility and crowns be part of one to fund the Seekers?

[quote]I'm sorry, but you actually think this is going to be effective?[/quote]Yes - and if you understood the premise rather than assuming how things work - I think you would to.

[quote]Who exactly do you think is going to give these reports?[/quote]Give reports?

They aren't being "comissioned" by some thedosian UN.

Again - you want Circle oversight - send coin to the Seekers.

The Seekers will publish their surveys for the public. They nobility will know if the findings are dishonest - for example - if there is no mention of X circle property listed in a report but nobles who've dealt with a circle know they own it - they'll pressure the Seekers for better oversight.

[quote]And what "committees"? How do these committies work? How are they funded? Who are they made up of?[/quote]First - I've listed this in the OP and mentioned them quite a few times in other posts.

Second - they're joint chantry-circle magic use committees. They regulate all magic use - vigorously anywhere outside the circles in particular - and all major circle projects outside the circles of magi would require approval from these committees.

The circles are free to do what they wish inside circle borders for the most part - what they do there is still regulated but I don't require the same strictness on activity outside circle borders.

They're required to be transparent about all activity - both inside and outside the circles - and Seeker reports will serve to keep them honest.

And templars haven't disappeared - they've been stripped of their authority over circles and their presence in them is limited - but they're still there - and they still can see what's going on.

If a cirlce is in flagrant violation of their law or intergovernmental law - steps will be taken against them - and the templar order can and will carry out that action - they simply can't decide something must be done or what that something is by themselves. There will be regulation and procedure to follow first.

Their power to take action will come from a nod by joint committees.

[quote]Why should the Chantry - which apparently has its own military like before - even listen to them?[/quote]Its compromise or war - and Justinia doesn't appear to want war. She advocates a compromise in Asunder - "Let the mages debate a policy that both of us can live with," she says.
[quote]There are "joint commitees" of First Enchanters and Knight Commanders in every Circle, and they mean exactly jack because mages don't have power.[/quote]First - that's not a committee - that's a violation of the Nevarran Accord that declares circles autonomous.

Second - I want heavy templar presence out of circles exactly because they have too much authority - and unsanctioned authority at that - in them.

Third - an agreement between the circle and chantry to regulate magic together - in the reform I suggest i.e. no templars in circles but rotating patrols - is as dissimilar as possible from the templar takeover of circles that demand magi subjugation.

Its dissimilar in its spirit - as this is characterized by a spirit of cooperation and not a one way street of intolerance - to preserve order and avoid war if nothing else - and its dissimilar in practice as the magi now have civil, criminal, and commercial control over their circles - and they have a real say in the regulation of magic.

They can operate without templar breathing down their necks.

[quote]The seekers won't. But once you remove the Chantry, the national lords will. But since it seems I misunderstood you and you're not removing the Chantry at all, then you're not actually changing the system.[/quote]I am challenging the system for as is - its corrupt and needs to be fixed.

There must be a rebalancing of power.

The templars were a rogue faction long before they split from the Chantry as they've violated Circle autonomy guaranteed to mages under the Nevarran Accord.

Their presence in circles must be limited to correct that.

I want circles to function as they're stated to on paper - I want to renew the Nevarran Accord essentially - but with a few tweaks to prevent the Circle's becoming subjugated again.

[quote]Ser Karras is going to go around raping mages with Ser Alrik, and then someone is going to write a report about it to Orisono and Meredth so he can get laughed out of the room.[/quote]The Kirkwall circle was the most dysfunctional in Thedas - so using it to make a point on how a reformed circle would function is mote IMO.

And I expect such a serious crime to be punished by the Knight-Commander - a firing and imprisonment at Aeonar - once a Seeker investigation has been conducted.

Templar lawbreaking will be punished - and their punishments made clear to everyone. There will be law and the penalty for breaking it will be specified by law and not left to the decision of a Knight-Commander - and if it isn't - you've the problems you have now and its back to war.

I don't think even Karras and Alrik flaunted their raping mages in Meredith's face or in Cullen's or someone like templar Carver's for fear of reprisal - its a heinous act to most people - even templars - and whistleblowers always exist.

People do treat some things as sacred.

[quote]It's going to be funded out of the Viscounts purpose, and the nobles are going to do exactly nothing against the templars unless they want to see their heads on pikes, which is pretty much what happened the last time someone tried to take the templars on in Kirkwall.[/quote]Again - taking the most dysfunctional circle and most rogue templar branch in thedas - and superimposing on it my reformation - is dumb.

[quote]With what army? Your Seekers are a bunch of accountants.[/quote]With that circle's templars and if not theirs - templars can be deployed from elsewhere to do the job.

[quote]And the lyrium is irrelevant for the mages - it just matters for the templars.[/quote]Its hardly irrelevant as all circle operations depend on lyrium. Enchantment requires lyrium - so no lyrium - no enchantment - no coin. No coin means no food or other basic necessities. No harrowings either. No fade research or other research that requires it etc. The circle comes to a stand still with no lyrium.

[quote]And if the templars in your world are the same as they've always been,[/quote]And why would you assume that?

The war is on already - the worst have or will become red templars that can be killed without repercussion - and as for the rest - their numbers have been culled - not being red templars ensures some measure of sanity - their leader who helped spur the conflict Lambert is MIA - the Knight-Commanders he bullied into action are hinted at having reservations about the whole thing in the first place - they'll run out of supplies and lyrium - lose men in skirmishes - lose men to roving demons hordes - and next they'll lose all confidence in their ability to quell the mage rebellion with force.

They will be forced to parley - and after negotiations - they will come into a reformed circle with a different mindset - understanding that things have changed. That they are not untouchable from corruption they police in mages - as red templars demonstrate - and that not only to make circles work but for them to even exist at all at this point - some concessions on their part must be made i.e. they don't get to fragrantly violate intergovernmental treaty and attempt to get away with it.

[quote]then they'll keep the Circle under control, and they'll do it through the same kind of fear and brutality that they've used for centuries: rebell and you all die, because we hold the power of life and death over you.[/quote]Are you trying to make some nihilist point?

That no one ever changes? That institutions don't change?

If so - I think you're wrong.

Bioware is going to cut the gangrene from the templar thumb it seems with the convient appearance of red templars - abusive psycho ****s taken care of.

[quote]The "nobility" aren't a bunch of philospher kings. They're more like a sophisticated and refined version of tribal barbarians.[/quote]I don't need them to be philosophers.

They can understand that the Circle holding too many assets or having too much lyrium is a bad thing for their liberty.

They can understand that unsanctioned or even the credible possibility of unsanctioned or misused or abuse of magic in a circle is a bad thing.

They can understand that undue chantry strangulation of the circle is bad for business and bad for their politics if they want to limit chantry [Orlesian] influence in their nations.

They can understand that unpunished templar abuses against mages can spark a cycle of rebellion and that perhaps the next won't be so amenable to compromise.

I don't think you have to be a philosopher to understand those things. Its a report - not a treatise on civil government.

[quote]Again, no, they won't. If these groups are threatened my mage power, they're going to want bloody relaliation and subjugation.[/quote]And as much as its a threat - its an economic boon - so "kill everything" likely isn't their first response to something amiss.

They get no real benefit from magic in the old system - the chantry makes sure of that to justify and preserve their own power.

But that will change in my system - and when once the nobility, crowns, merchants, and peasants enjoy what magic can do for them - they won't go back to old way of chantry mage/magic hording monopolies without a fight.

Who else is going to carry out a circle subjugation?

Chantry templars are on circle grounds and the Circle is still connected to the Chantry - so attacking the Circle is still attacking the Chantry - and unless you're prepared for an Exalted March that's not smart.

[quote]That's how it works back then. That's how it always worked. The reason it doesn't IRL right now is because of the very sophisticated system of governance we've built - the very sophisticated system of checks and balances - that exists in most very developed countries in the world. A lot of countries are plagued by graft and corruption, and these limits on governance don't exist.[/quote]Our checks and balances were a joke to begin with - the American senate was built on the fool idea that rich and educated men are benevolent stewards of society willing to check without benefit the unsteadiness of the House and the people for the greater public good.

Again - what a joke.

I account for the interest and motivations of all parties in this - at least I try to - and build around that.

[quote]If you want some utopian system where all of Thedas reads reports that are months out of date, and then somehow... what?[/quote]I don't care about all of Thedas - just that the most important particpate - and they will. Out of necessity if nothing else.

If one country is willing to do it - like perhaps Rivain or Nevarra with their unique magical traditions to bolster magi support - everyone else has to as well or they get left behind in the world economy.

And people today check on their investments and vested interests 24/7 - why would that be different in Thedas? Its not utopian - its reality.

And why would any report be "months out of date"? Why would I want reports to take that long to come out?

[quote]Every single person in Thedas meets up in a central location to talk policy?[/quote]And when did I say that?

Again - do I meet up with all PBS viewers or subscribers of The Guardian because I donated to their funds? No.

[quote]Who makes these decisions? You keep saying there's no goverment oversight, so what powers exactly does the random Merchant in Kirkwall have if she's unhappy with page 297 of the 7 month old report about the acquisition of four trinket shops in Redcliffe by the Fereldan Circle? Write a letter?[/quote]She ****es with a loud group of likeminded individuals to the Chantry and circle - and if the circle cares about their grievance - they'll do something - but if they don't and their having those properties doesn't violate established law or chantry-circle regulations on property ownership and excess assets - too bad.

Go wrangle support from a noble that doesn't like something else the circle is doing and lobby to their ambassadors or the Chantry's at court.

[quote]Wait - you think the UN is broken, and you think that an even less functional model will somehow do its job?[/quote]Dysfunctional according to who?

You?

I take your opinon and objections with a grain of salt as you don't appear to fully understand what I want to do in the first place - and likely didn't read most of my posts already made on key points in this thread - and rather than read them like Ieldra or ask questions like Eluvianix - you fill in the blanks with assumptions that support whatever reservations you have about this proposal.

[quote]You've already recongized the problem: the powerful backers turned a toothless organization into another arm of their governemnt. What makes you think that powerful backers won't do exactly that with your hypothetical Seekers?[/quote]And how could they?

I'll require in treaty the Seekers to cap and report their own spending - they need transparency as well - and I think the nobility will want to know who among them is funding the Seekers to prevent that corruption.

And though there may be divides between nobilities - for certain they are not anywhere near as extreme as the divide between the UN elite and the rest of the UN member nations.

They aren't powerless and can do and will do something about vested interest when its going up against their own.

[quote]I mean, hypothetically, because in practice it sounds like they have 0 powers to do anything other than the opportunity to have their money embezzled while the Templars are under 0 regulation because they're apparently entitled to freely run the Circles according to the directoves of the Chantry.[/quote]???

There are people in the world that believe in something - that will be whistleblowers - that will report on the state of things for the public good - that will protect society and fragile liberties.

Edward Snowden - to use a recent example.

The original inquisition was built on this mentality supposedly - they were publicly funded - and did their job for everyone - magi and mundane - and under a Cassandra type I think they will do their job as they're supposed to - and recruit on those principles.

And there's no "taking directives from the Chantry" - the templars abide by rules and regulation agreed to in negotiations.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 31 décembre 2013 - 06:43 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

In Exile wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I am certain you are intellegent enough to make the distinction between a piece of technological equipment, and a transdimensional being. I am also certain that you are intellegent enough to comprehend the purpose of the simplification I made. I am not entirely certain about what you were trying to accomplish by your post though.

I'm well aware of the point you tried to make. I am saying you're wrong, and that based on your post alone, there's no reason to believe there's any difference between what the Spirit is doing to what a dialysis machine does. I know you believe there is, and what I am telling is you is that you have to actually spell out what is different. 

I suppose you also think that Sophia Dryden was entirely alive and well in Soldier's Peak?

The difference is that Evangelina is DEAD, but the spirit that is inhabiting her corpse is preventing the end of her existence. A dialysis machine keeps the person alive.
I do not know of any machine that brings back people from death, and then keeps them alive indefinitely. But maybe you can enlighten me.

I always saw it as Evangeline was dead, but she was brought back to life. Just like how we have people who were "technically dead" for a few minutes and yet are alive and well. Evangeline died and the Spirit of Faith acted like a defibrillator and brought her back, body and soul. Now the spirit of Faith acts like it did for Wynne to keep the two from seperating again, like a life support machine except much easier to carry. So I have to agree with the "Evangeline and Wynne were not walking corpses" team. They were dead, but brought back to life.

[lil yonce]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
I always saw it as Evangeline was dead, but she was brought back to life. Just like how we have people who were "technically dead" for a few minutes and yet are alive and well. Evangeline died and the Spirit of Faith acted like a defibrillator and brought her back, body and soul. Now the spirit of Faith acts like it did for Wynne to keep the two from seperating again, like a life support machine except much easier to carry. So I have to agree with the "Evangeline and Wynne were not walking corpses" team. They were dead, but brought back to life.

I agree with y'all too. They aren't possessed bodies - just empty vessels for a spirit to fill like Kristoff.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 31 décembre 2013 - 07:08 .

[Hellion Rex]

Youth4Ever wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
I always saw it as Evangeline was dead, but she was brought back to life. Just like how we have people who were "technically dead" for a few minutes and yet are alive and well. Evangeline died and the Spirit of Faith acted like a defibrillator and brought her back, body and soul. Now the spirit of Faith acts like it did for Wynne to keep the two from seperating again, like a life support machine except much easier to carry. So I have to agree with the "Evangeline and Wynne were not walking corpses" team. They were dead, but brought back to life.

I agree with y'all too. They aren't possessed bodies - just empty vessels a spirit to fill like Kristoff.

Except Kristoff was all the way dead already. Just a slight technicality.

[lil yonce]

eluvianix wrote...
Except Kristoff was all the way dead already. Just a slight technicality.

Yeah - but I wouldn't consider Wynne and Evangeline to be walking corpses because I think Kristoff fits the walking corpse description better.

They're just on life spiritual life support. 

[lil yonce]

MisterJB wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...
The templar job is a rather foul one at present, and the sooner another organization comes about to guard circles, the better.

Did you forget to quote the rest of the block that explains why I dislike the templars?

And I don't want their duty of circle guardianship to disappear.

I just want someone else to do it - or someone else to absorb the templars - and to do their job fairly like the original inquisition - though I don't know the people of Thedas are willing to pay for that yet.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 31 décembre 2013 - 07:21 .

[lil yonce]

MisterJB wrote...
As our own world proves it, technology can produce effects that surpass anything magic has been known to do in Thedas

And as that tech to do that doesn't exist in Thedas - is that just too bad for everyone who would benefit from magic that could?

and it would not leave one class of people utterly dependant to another based on the conditions of birth.

The top 100 families in a country usually inherit their wealth - and everyone else is dependent on these "job creators".

Yould have magic dominate the infrastructure of society but if it does, then society is dominated by mages who will then be free to decide what goes and what does not by using the threat of restricting magic to themselves.That is unnaceptable.

I want everyone to benefit from magic - and mages to reap some measure of autonomy, security, and respect for it.

At the moment - the Chantry decides what goes and what does not on magic and restricts magic to its condoned uses. I don't believe in some kind of pro-magic laissez-faire if that's what you assume - but I want magic in the market to serve man as much as it can.

It's never going to happen. If, for instance, mages now sell items only to the very wealthy, as society progresses and more people become economically capable, the mages will have opportunies to sell to a larger public without infringing upon the avenues of income that ensure the livelihood and independence of non-mages.

And mages have to wait a decades or ages for public income to grow - forget about the coin needed to make circles grow now - to take them from barely converted military forts into real residences - to wait to buy lyrium for all apprentices for harrowings - to wait to conduct real research?

The coin must come from somewhere - and I don't think a poor peasant class can really support this kind of development. The Circle isn't barred from selling to them now - and they still don't make enough coin.

Make more Tranquil with the specific purpose of working.

That's inhumane and you know it. Its flatout shameful to suggest it.

You suggest dominating non-magical society for the sake of not lobotomizing a fe mages and then call it compromise?

Again - its inhumane.

Morals to MisterJB - come in MisterJB - its not happening - and certainly not so for the sole reason of continued magi subjugation.

The mages will never accept it either.

Was that a threat? I daresay magical terrorists would be easier to deal with than mages on the list of the 15 wealthiest men in Thedas.

Pay for it - as in fund it. I don't think they want to - and if they don't the circles can't exist.

I didn't make any threat.

No evidence of it. Only speculation on your part that the Nevarran mages have some sort of influence on the mining industry of Nevarra when TWoT suggests that their income comes from their services as mummifiers.

It doesn't say Nevarran magi coin comes from the mortalitasi - it says that's just one special aspect of magic practice in Nevarra.

I suppose we can't really know where they get their coin.

Yes, considering how that would enable them to starve entire populations if their whims are not attended to.

They wouldn't starve a population if there are firm restrictions placed on their lyrium use as I propose - or if the penalty for buying up large amounts of lyrium for operations is incredibly stiff - if something like a "magic reaper" is expensive and only a few can afford them in the first place - their controlling industry won't exist.

Their magic will be useful, however, and enable them to support themselves, ensure their liberty, and security in the world.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 08 janvier 2014 - 06:59 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Youth4Ever wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
I always saw it as Evangeline was dead, but she was brought back to life. Just like how we have people who were "technically dead" for a few minutes and yet are alive and well. Evangeline died and the Spirit of Faith acted like a defibrillator and brought her back, body and soul. Now the spirit of Faith acts like it did for Wynne to keep the two from seperating again, like a life support machine except much easier to carry. So I have to agree with the "Evangeline and Wynne were not walking corpses" team. They were dead, but brought back to life.

I agree with y'all too. They aren't possessed bodies - just empty vessels for a spirit to fill like Kristoff.

I wouldn't even say they're empty. It is their soul that inhabits it. Faith just serves as like a glue to keep their spirit from detaching again. Like you said, they are on spiritual life support.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 31 décembre 2013 - 08:00 .

[lil yonce]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I wouldn't even say they're empty. It is their soul that inhabits it. Faith just serves as like a glue to keep their spirit from detaching again. Like you said, they are on spiritual life support.

Oh sorry - that's not what I meant - but I see from how I structured that sentence, its the impression you received.

To be clear - I mean they aren't possessed bodies - they weren't just empty vessels for a spirit to fill.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 31 décembre 2013 - 08:04 .

[KainD]

You lot should try to find a compromise for all the WK40k factions as well. I'm sure it's also ''possible''.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Youth4Ever wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

I wouldn't even say they're empty. It is their soul that inhabits it. Faith just serves as like a glue to keep their spirit from detaching again. Like you said, they are on spiritual life support.

Oh sorry - that's not what I meant - but I see from how I structured that sentence, its the impression you received.

To be clear - I mean they aren't possessed bodies - they weren't just empty vessels for a spirit to fill.

Oh, okay. Yeah, I was a little confused by what you meant, so I posted what i did to clarify my point in case it was mine that was confusing. Glad we got that clarified. 

[KainD]

Youth4Ever wrote...
Reported Spam. 

olol

[In Exile]

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...
And there's no sense of community or solidarity in any thedosian village - is that what you're saying? [/quote]

There's no sense of a political community, and what you're asking is political community. This is taking for granted the assumption you're implicitly making: that people aren't prejudiced against mages, contrary to what Wynne suggests re: villages up and killing mage children out of fear. 

[quote]For example - the Rivaini in particular are very supportive of one another though they have little - and as being a mage in their culture isn't black sin - in fact mages fill a rather important role in their society - I certainly can see peasants being supportive of such an initiative.  [/quote]

You're confusing things. Rivain doesn't have the prejudice against mages and possession that plagues the rest of Thedas. But their solution is freedom for the mages and the Circles as schools of learning, not reading reports about the state of rat problem in the Anderfells Circle. 
[quote]First - I'm not certain what you mean by "funding the Circle". I've provided an example to dragonflight288 on the first page of what I mean concerning nobility benefit. [/quote]I apologize, but I didn't painstainkly read every single post in this thread that you've made. 

[quote]They can invest in circle operations perhaps.

They can buy enchantments and circle magic for regulated use - and all major projects outside circle borders would require joint chantry-circle approval.

And if "funding the circle" is selling enchantments and something like healing magic or potions to nobility - the Circle does that now and there's no evidence they've been corrupted by the nobility. [/quote]

That's not paying for anything - that's just commerce. 

[quote]Second - "being bought" is the kind of corruption independent Seekers would watch for. And I'm still not certain what you're imagining to be honest - bribe the circle to do what? [/quote]

How are they going to watch for it? They're not there. They're going to have to show up. Which means they need a whistle blower. As for the sort of bribing we're talking about, I gave you an example: having Connor leave the Circle permanently to live with his family. Having mages participate in military skirmishes with neighbours. 

[quote]She may not - but most of the nobility will - and unless Arl Eamon is significantly richer than most of them combined - his coin will mean little to the circle.[/quote]Why would most of the nobility support anything? If their children could become mages, they benefit far more from more freedom. And their military conquests would benefit greatly from a Circle loyal to them. 

[quote]And to think thedosians aren't capable of compassionate action or supporting their communities because explicit humanitarianism isn't a thing yet - I think that's very cynical or dumb - or both. [/quote]

No, what I'm saying is that an ideology of international human rights doesn't exist. You're talking about convincing one village to be taxed so that they can read reports about the state of the Anderfell Circle, a place in a country so far away they'll never visit, only heard about in stories, dealing with the lives of people who they've never met and addressing issues they've never experienced. 
[quote]The Chantry still has a job to do in this - they sit on committees that regulate and monitor magic use - so while the circles can set their economic policies and commercial goals - they have to work with the Chantry for major project approval outside circles - and as the Chantry has historically worked very hard to subvert magic's influence in society for doing so preserves their own power base - they simply will not agree to everything the circles want to do. [/quote]
Are you listening to yourself? Do you understand the kind of social and political environment that's required to start having things like commitees? And how do you think regulation will actually work? Do you know the kind of infrastructure that's necessary to actually regulate an industry? You're talking about creating the equivalent of the SEC for mages. This can't work without an actual international government. 

And even if the organization exists, it's going to be incredibly difficult to work out in practice. And none of it is going to be able to do anything. How is your joint commitee going to stop the mages from just up and leaving the Circle? You're going to do it with armed guards. Which means that you've given the Chantry all the actual power: military power, and you've created no meaningful counterbalance. 

Do you know how regulatory abuses or failures are deal with in the real world? The judiciary. So now are you going to create an international court of justice? And where are the laws and rules that governs these commitees set down? Do we have teams of lawyers going through reams of jurisprudence? 

And which countries have the jurisdiction to deal with these disputes?

Your fantasy scenario doesn't work - and can't work - without an international goverment. It's why the UN and the ICJ don't function in practice. 

[quote]One thing may be initially proposed to a joint committee and by the time an agreement is reached it comes out looking quite different from the original proposal. [/quote]

Again, do you understand how much bureaucratic this system is? 
[quote]No - I'm not taking Circle guardianship away. I'm willing to let the templars occupy a rogue circle until further action decided by chantry-circle higher ups is taken - and any circle refusing to observe neutrality is rogue.[/quote]Who decides what a "rogue" circle is? How are the templars funded? How does a Circle become rogue? Why is the Chantry entitled to cross the borders of a particualr country with an armed force? What if the nobles who pay for that Circle disagree it went rogue? 
[quote]I  don't need the nations of Thedas to be part of an international organization to have the Seekers conduct reports from a pooled fund. [/quote]Yes, you do. I explained above why. 

[quote]I don't have to be part of some international organization to fund free press or public television - why must the nobility and crowns be part of one to fund the Seekers? [/quote]

You're part of a nation-state. You have freedom of speech because an entire national infrastructure - from the courts on to the legislature - create laws and enforce those laws to ensure that people can't violently retaliate against your speech, and that the state can't restrict it, etc. And public television is funded through the democratic political system. 

Take a look at Somalia if you want to see what the absence of goverment does for these things. 

[quote]Again - you want Circle oversight - send coin to the Seekers.  [/quote]

There's no "oversight". Publishing a report isn't oversight. The UN publishes them all the time. That kind of "oversight" hasn't stopped a civil war in Syria, for example, or the systemic abuses in North Korea. It's as effective as a university student writing a paper and putting it up online on a blog. Why? Because no one has the power to take action. 

[quote]The Seekers will publish their surveys for the public. They nobility will know if the findings are dishonest - for example - if there is no mention of X circle property listed in a report but nobles who've dealt with a circle know they own it - they'll pressure the Seekers for better oversight.[/quote]

How will they pressure the Seekrs for better oversight? How will it happen? Who will enforce it? What if the Seekers disagree? How will that dispute be adjudicated? 

[quote]Second - they're joint chantry-circle magic use committees. They regulate all magic use - vigorously anywhere outside the circles in particular - and all major circle projects outside the circles of magi would require approval from these committees. [/quote]This is getting comical. Do you have any idea how regulation actually works in practice? 

[quote]They're required to be transparent about all activity - both inside and outside the circles - and Seeker reports will serve to keep them honest. [/quote]

Go to the SEC website. Start looking up prospectus, and MD&A of financial statements. Do you see how massive those documents are? That's what you're asking about. Now look at the SEC budget. Start reading about how underfunded it is relative to the herculean task of regulating the financial system. Look at the NSYE. Start reading about all the regulations it creates. Then go look at Payment Systems in the US, and compare that with how they're done in the EU. 

The about of regulation that's necessary to oversee something like commerce is insane. It's on a scale most people can't begin to appreciate because they can't see it. This system straight up cannot function if you're trying to give the decision making capability to the lowest and broadest level - the public. Even if you restrict it to the nobles. Not even legislatures worry about this detail: it's an administrative organization going their own way. 

[quote]If a cirlce is in flagrant violation of their law or intergovernmental law - steps will be taken against them - and the templar order can and will carry out that action - they simply can't decide something must be done or what that something is by themselves. There will be regulation and procedure to follow first. [/quote]

Who deeds that they're in "flagrant" violation? Is that written down somewhere? Do Circles have due process? What is the legal authority for that process? 

[quote]Their power to take action will come from a nod by joint committees. [/quote]

So now other commites decide this? Do they adjudicate disputes? Hold hearings? Are they the same people that decide on the course of action initially? Why does a "joint commitee" in the Anderfels have sway over what happens in Ferelden? What if the Anderfels Circle is involved in a trade war with the Fereldan one and will use its position to exploit a favourable economic outcome? Who sorts out that dispute? 

In all of this, the nobles and the chantry have all the power - the weapons and the money. Why are they going to go along with any of this? 
[quote]First - that's not a committee - that's a violation of the Nevarran Accord that declares circles autonomous.[/quote]And do you know why the Accords aren't worth anything? Because the templars have the swords and they get to dicate the day-to-day terms. Your system doesn't change anything because the Circles don't have any power. You don't have any insitution with the ability to keep everyone in line. 

[quote]Second - I want heavy templar presence out of circles exactly because they have too much authority - and unsanctioned authority at that - in them. [/quote]

It's great that you want that, but you don't have the power to enforce it. 

[quote]Third - an agreement between the circle and chantry to regulate magic together - in the reform I suggest i.e. no templars in circles but rotating patrols - is as dissimilar as possible from the templar takeover of circles that demand magi subjugation.  [/quote]

So no we have "rotating patrols". Who do these patrols answer to? How does going from Ser Alrik in charge of the Circle for a few months to Ser Karras being in charge of it improve the situation for the mages? They just trade their oppressors every few months. 

[quote]Its dissimilar in its spirit - as this is characterized by a spirit of cooperation and not a one way street of intolerance - to preserve order and avoid war if nothing else - and its dissimilar in practice as the magi now have civil, criminal, and commercial control over their circles - and they have a real say in the regulation of magic. [/quote]

The mages don't have any of that. If they're living in a single tower with armed guards around them, then the people with the pointy mental rods and the anti-magic training tell them how to live. They have no one to complain to, because there's no power in those absurd joint commities you create. There's no mechanism to sort out any dispute even if everyone was coming to the table in good faith - which they're clealry not - and it does nothing to adress any of the separate interests involved. 

[quote][There must be a rebalancing of power.[/quote]Yeah, there must. But you're not suggesting any power rebalancing. You're suggesting a meaningless paper compromise that's going to be taken about as seriously as the Nevarran Accord was taken, i.e., not at all.

[quote]I want circles to function as they're stated to on paper - I want to renew the Nevarran Accord essentially - but with a few tweaks to prevent the Circle's becoming subjugated again. [/quote]

Those Accords failed because there was no check on the Chantry's power, and all you're suggest - at best - is empowering local warlords to have a say in how mages are treated. 

[quote]The Kirkwall circle was the most dysfunctional in Thedas - so using it to make a point on how a reformed circle would function is mote IMO. [/quote]The Kirkwall Circle is an example of what you get when the wrong person is in power, and sorrounded by human garbage in enforcement roles. Who prevents that in your fantasy land?

[quote]And I expect such a serious crime to be punished by the Knight-Commander - a firing and imprisonment at Aeonar - once a Seeker investigation has been conducted.  [/quote]

You mean, by Meredith? 

[quote]Templar lawbreaking will be punished - and their punishments made clear to everyone. There will be law and the penalty for breaking it will be specified by law and not left to the decision of a Knight-Commander - and if it isn't - you've the problems you have now and its back to war. [/quote]

Who's going to enforce that? Your Seekers can't - they don't have an armed force. They're not part of the Chantry, and in fact you want them to be actively opposed to Chantry policy on mages, so the templars have no divine obligation to answer to them. The Grand Cleric can ask her Knight Commander to say that the Seeker was a destablizing agent and have them executed. 

[quote]I don't think even Karras and Alrik flaunted their raping mages in Meredith's face or in Cullen's or someone like templar Carver's for fear of reprisal - its a heinous act to most people - even templars - and whistleblowers always exist.  [/quote]

Like the existed in Kirkwall? 
[quote]Again - taking the most dysfunctional circle and most rogue templar branch in thedas - and superimposing on it my reformation - is dumb.[/quote]No. If you want a functional system, then you have to be able to avoid these kinds of abuses. But your only response is that these abuses can't be a standard we use to judge whether the system works. 

Well, then the Nevvaran accords are awesome because look at the Fereldan Circle! 
[quote]With that circle's templars and if not theirs - templars can be deployed from elsewhere to do the job.[/quote]So now the Circles have their own personal army? How are you going to get the nations to agree to having their territory annexed so that mages can have their own kingdom and military force inside their lands, answering to absolutely no one? Your so-called Seekers don't have a military force. [quote]Its hardly irrelevant as all circle operations depend on lyrium. Enchantment requires lyrium - so no lyrium - no enchantment - no coin. No coin means no food or other basic necessities. No harrowings either. No fade research or other research that requires it etc. The circle comes to a stand still with no lyrium.[/quote]And what do you think happens to Orzammar? Why should they give a fig what the Chantry has to say? What's the Chantry going to do? Declare a war? 
[quote]And why would you assume that? [/quote]Do you think the Chantry stuck a sign on its front lawn that said "only rapists can apply for templar vacancies"? There are numberous psychological studies that show what people become when they give them the kind of power that templars will have. 

[quote]The war is on already - the worst have or will become red templars that can be killed without repercussion - and as for the rest - their numbers have been culled - not being red templars ensures some measure of sanity - their leader who helped spur the conflict Lambert is MIA - the Knight-Commanders he bullied into action are hinted at having reservations about the whole thing in the first place - they'll run out of supplies and lyrium - lose men in skirmishes - lose men to roving demons hordes - and next they'll lose all confidence in their ability to quell the mage rebellion with force.  [/quote]

So the Circles, on this reasoning, are going to win a resounding military victory and see their only opposition crushed. Why would they be so stupid as to actually negotiate anything? They can tell the Chantry to go bugger themselves, and then go straight to the local nobles, say that they'll swear fealty to them in return for complete and utter independence, and that's it. 
[quote]That no one ever changes? That institutions don't change? [/quote]No, institutions chage. Human society is proof of that. But they change when you break up concentrated power. Regulation is about counter-balancing power. That's what you don't seem to be able to understand. You're creating a system that empowers one group - the local nobles - and otherwise does nothign to address any problem of "oversight" because there's no power or force behind it. 

[quote]They can understand that the Circle holding too many assets or having too much lyrium is a bad thing for their liberty. [/quote]

Except that this didn't happen IRL. Look at the Gilded Age of Capitalism in the US. It wasn't some random barely literate farmer that broke up monopolies. It was the concrated power of the US government, eventually, and quite late at that. And arguably didn't even manage to do it completely. Look at the pull international financing organizations - like investment banks - have on the regulation of the financial industry. 

And that's in the face of an actual goverment with real power to regulate and clamp down. Your fantasy system doesn't even have that. 

[quote]I don't think you have to be a philosopher to understand those things. Its a report - not a treatise on civil government. [/quote]

How many people do you think, today, IRL, are going to read the hundred of page reports that get published every year on the state of the financial system? Hell, how many goverment represenatatives - people who do this for a living - do you think read these reports? You're living in a fantasy world. You have no idea how complicated, how complex, and how difficult regulation actually is. 

[quote]Our checks and balances were a joke to begin with - the American senate was built on the fool idea that rich and educated men are benevolent stewards of society willing to check without benefit the unsteadiness of the House and the people for the greater public good.  [/quote]

Your system doesn't do any of this. It's even worse that what exists in practice. 

[quote]And people today check on their investments and vested interests 24/7 - why would that be different in Thedas? Its not utopian - its reality. [/quote]

People look at some random meaningless numbers. They don't read prospectuses. They certainly don't read the hundreds of bulletins and different laws and regulations and incidents that happen every day in the financial industry. That's literally impossible. It takes months to years just to deal with one dispute and investigation in the financial industry, and you think your barely-at-the-printing press medieval society can do this? 

[quote]And why would any report be "months out of date"? Why would I want reports to take that long to come out? [/quote]

Right now, today, IRL, it takes a very long time to put toghether something as ostensibly simple as an auditor's report on the financial health of one company. And this is with the most sophisticated sotfware in existence. Thedas, at most, has a printing press! How long do you think it will take to actually write these reports? They're out of date the moment they're writting, much less in the time it takes to actually get them to people, and then to have those people read and think about them, and then to somehow organize action to do something about it. 

It would take years. 

[quote]Again - do I meet up with all PBS viewers or subscribers of The Guardian because I donated to their funds? No.[/quote]No. But you have 0 say in what they do. If you're not asking for direct demoncracy, then you're asking for centralized decision making in the hands of a few. And just read up on ideas of "shareholder democracy" in corporate governance to see how non-fuctional that is. 
[quote]She ****es with a loud group of likeminded individuals to the Chantry and circle - and if the circle cares about their grievance - they'll do something - but if they don't and their having those properties doesn't violate established law or chantry-circle regulations on property ownership and excess assets - too bad. [/quote]Who decides if it violates the law? Now you're talking about a legal system. So do they have a lawyer. Which laws? Domestic law? Chantry law? So now there are multiple and separate levels of court? Who funds the courts? Where does this poor merchant get money to afford a lawyer? Are you aware of how many months it takes to get litigation off the ground, and how sophisticated a legal system you need to regulate something at this level?

[qupte]Go wrangle support from a noble that doesn't like something else the circle is doing and lobby to their ambassadors or the Chantry's at court. [/quote]

So now we have "wrangling" of support? Liek a bit of a bribe? And what Ambassador? How many are there? Who pays for them? 

[quote]I take your opinon and objections with a grain of salt as you don't appear to fully understand what I want to do in the first place - and likely didn't read most of my posts already made on key points in this thread - and rather than read them like Ieldra or ask questions like Eluvianix - you fill in the blanks with assumptions that support whatever reservations you have about this proposal. [/quote]

It's not assumptions. It's how regulation works IRL. I'd wager that out of everyone who's posted in this thread, I'm the only one that's actually worked with anything close to the kind of regulation you're talking about. And I can tell you that you just can't even begin to understand the kind of social and legal complexity that's required to get a system like you want off the ground. 

[quote]I'll require in treaty the Seekers to cap and report their own spending - they need transparency as well - and I think the nobility will want to know who among them is funding the Seekers to prevent that corruption.[/quote]So now we've got reports about the Seekers. Are they regulating themselves? Why wouldn't they lie? Who's going to double check them? What if there's a dispute? Where does that get sorted out? Who controls the courts there? 

[quote]There are people in the world that believe in something - that will be whistleblowers - that will report on the state of things for the public good - that will protect society and fragile liberties.  

Edward Snowden - to use a recent example.
[/quote]

Edward Snowden is living in exile in Russia because we've reached a point in our society where just executing someone who has dangerous information isn't OK. Do you honestly think that Thedas is like that? 

More importantly, what did Snowden change? What is the NSA doing differently? What is the Obama goverment doing differently? What is the public doing differently? 

[quote]And there's no "taking directives from the Chantry" - the templars abide by rules and regulation agreed to in negotiations.
[/quote]

Who enforces those rules? 

[AresKeith]

KainD wrote...

You lot should try to find a compromise for all the WK40k factions as well. I'm sure it's also ''possible''.

Why so toxic?

[KainD]

AresKeith wrote...

Why so toxic?

Just sharing a similar example that can have no real compromise, that is arguably more agreable and obvious. 

[Star fury]

AresKeith wrote...
Why so toxic?

WH40k also has inquisitors and mages psykers with templars too. Imperium even sacrifices their kind of mages to sustain a life of the Emperor .

[KainD]

Dobbysaurus wrote...

Wow... the time and energy put into this debate about Mages vs. Templars... you would think it was a real life issue. I think some people forget this is just a video game.

It could be a real life issue, and we have a lot of similar life issues. 

[General TSAR]

In Exile wrote...
Edward Snowden is living in exile in Russia because we've reached a point in our society where just executing someone who has dangerous information isn't OK. Do you honestly think that Thedas is like that? 

More importantly, what did Snowden change? What is the NSA doing differently? What is the Obama goverment doing differently? What is the public doing differently? 

Do you have to bring in real world politics?

[Lord Raijin]

My attempt to get back on subject

At the end of Asunder I honestly do not believe that their could be any compromise between the mages and the Templar's. Things are just too heated up to even think about it. Both sides have their priorities set, and determine to get their way, and will fight to the death to achieve their goals. The mages are fighting for their freedom and the Templar's are fighting to restore order.

The Mage-Templar war is now keen on who is the most dominating faction? Mages or the Templar's?

[SgtSteel91]

Lord Raijin wrote...

My attempt to get back on subject

At the end of Asunder I honestly do not believe that their could be any compromise between the mages and the Templar's. Things are just too heated up to even think about it. Both sides have their priorities set, and determine to get their way, and will fight to the death to achieve their goals. The mages are fighting for their freedom and the Templar's are fighting to restore order.

The Mage-Templar war is now keen on who is the most dominating faction? Mages or the Templar's?

Most people would be quick to say that the Templars have the advantage but we'll have to wait until Inquisition comes out and we see for ourselves if Mages are getting beaten down by the Templars or Bioware writes a way such that both sides are in a stalemate.

[Lord Raijin]

@SgtSteel91 A Templar without Lyrium in their system becomes useless and weak. They're no longer capable of dispelling mana from mages and plus they experience nasty withdrawals. Look at how pathetic that one Templar was acting when he was locked up in Howe's dungeon. A grown adult man, who was trained to deal with dangerous mages, was whining and crying in his cell.

After Lambert annulled the Nevarran Accord thus separating both the Templar's and the Seekers from the Chantry I question their finances, and their ability to afford Lyrium from other sources. Lyrium is one of the most expensive item in Thedas if I recall. I don't rememer the Chantry selling the stuffs to Templars... they were giving it away to them.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 31 décembre 2013 - 11:13 .