203 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

Well it was already stated that we aren't gonna be forced to choose a side. So Bioware is either making a way for us to stop the conflict without choosing a side (compromise, beating both of them) or letting us avoid the thing as a whole

[lil yonce]

[quote]InExile wrote... There's no sense of a political community, and what you're asking is political community.[/quote]And that's untrue in Rivain where communities gather regularly for the allsmet.

Its untrue in Ferelden where nobility looking for armies must make their case to Freeholders.

Its untrue in Nevarra where mages have gained and exercised considerable political power - no one simply let them have it.

Its untrue in the Anderfels where villages far beyond the capital are forgotten by authorities and consequently are largely self-suffcient and self-reliant.

And that's what we know about explicitly.

Too say humanitarianism or public interest in government does not exist in thedas - you must not have the lore information available to you - you're forgetting it - or ignoring it.

[quote]This is taking for granted the assumption you're implicitly making: that people aren't prejudiced against mages, contrary to what Wynne suggests re: villages up and killing mage children out of fear.[/quote]And I'm not forcing peasants to donate a thing - if they don't want to - they don't have to.

And I don't think they have to like mages to fund oversight over them - if anything because they are so distrustful of them - they'll do it and ensure circles are monitored. I said that earlier as well.

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote... I suggest the peasantry should donate - out of a sense of philanthropy if nothing else - there will be children in their communities sent to circles, and they will be impacted by what the circle does - but they don't have to - and I don't really care if they don't at present.[/quote]
Either reason is legitmate to me. I don't care which they choose.

And if they choose not to donate at all - that's fine too.

[quote]You're confusing things. Rivain doesn't have the prejudice against mages and possession that plagues the rest of Thedas. But their solution is freedom for the mages and the Circles as schools of learning, not reading reports about the state of rat problem in the Anderfells Circle.[/quote]I'm not confusing anything - you're making assumptions about what I'm saying and becoming confused as a result.

And the circle as a free school in Rivain is not universally supported either.

They have an Andrastian nobility that "tolerates" and wants to limit mage/seer influence. They require seers to aid templars when the order demands their compliance in exchange for the latitude they allow them in politics.

In secret Rivaini mages made their circle a facade - they weren't free do as they wished - the nation's powerful do not support the idea - and the Dairsmuid annulment proves that.

[quote]I apologize, but I didn't painstainkly read every single post in this thread that you've made.[/quote]I'd expect you to have the courtesy to know what you're talking about before commenting - I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.

[quote]That's not paying for anything - that's just commerce. [/quote]And that's the point I was making to you.

The nobility will not fund the circles - and I'm not sure where you got the idea they would from.

[quote]How are they going to watch for it? They're not there. They're going to have to show up. Which means they need a whistle blower.[/quote]What mages do in their own circles - I'll be rather leniant about - but templars are still present. Obviously - they can still use their eyes to see what's going on - they can see something amiss.

And as all circle activity will be on public record - they can compare and connect the dots - they can serve as whistleblowers.

I'm not against that.

I'm not for their oppressive control of circles - but I'm not against whistleblowing.

[quote]As for the sort of bribing we're talking about, I gave you an example: having Connor leave the Circle permanently to live with his family.[/quote]And you believe that sort of thing absolutely doesn't happen now - you don't believe nobles have ever bribed the Chantry to have their child live at home?

And I don't particularly care about the occasional bribing of this kind - its not the end of the world - and if the circles run expansive rackets of this kind - they'll be found out.

Money doesn't disappear - support isn't generated from thin air - undue circle influence will look suspicious - and untrained mages like Connor cause trouble.

A trend will emerge - pressure will mount - an investigation will happen - the benefit a circle receives will be found out and they'll face penalty - I suggest they pay substantially in lyrium interest or lyrium taxes or have the amount of lyrium they can receive reduced or all of the above to teach them not to do it again - in other words they'll face harsh sanctions.

[quote]Having mages participate in military skirmishes with neighbours.[/quote]Unsanctioned magic on battlefields will obviously be heard about.

Any magic on battlefields will quickly become public knowledge as its a big deal - a committee can open an inquiry - and if the circle cannot prove it was sanctioned - that it had the joint approval I would require - then again they face sanctions - and I'm not allowing any militant magic that goes against circle neutrality so mages fighting for crowns in imperialistic "skirmishes with their neighbors" - I'm not allowing that.

[quote]Why would most of the nobility support anything? If their children could become mages, they benefit far more from more freedom.[/quote]"If" their children become mages? Big if to plan and gamble your future on - IMO.

Mages are an extreme minority after all - and bloodlines that have had magical talent likely have been found out and had their influence and lines culled through the ages.

I thought other nobles avoided that sort of intermixing - marriage to bloodlines that are known to produce magic - to protect their own famillies from the risk of losing heirs and from the shame of producing mages.

Leadra comments that bringing magic into a line is looked down upon - for instance.

Its a big scandal when it rears its head in the Amell bloodline -  so I doubt magical talent is very common in noble families to start - thus staking your future on "I might have mage children," - I don't find that credible.

And if they do have mage children - its when they do that seems like the logical time to sell their soul to the circle whatever that even means - and not before when their vested interests as mundane are in opposition to a magi takeover.

And if the circle has their child - that child has a phylactery that can be used to track them - and if they aren't on circle premises the templars [who will still hold phylacteries] will know - and they can blow the whistle.

And a bribe implies that the circle [by extension the templars who retrieve the child and chantry who keeps their own records on mages] would know their child is a mage - and if you want your child to stay out it, avoid shelling out coin, or being a circle puppet - for you may be contradicting your own interests in doing so - you likely wouldn't tell anyone - certainly not the circle.

[quote]And their military conquests would benefit greatly from a Circle loyal to them.[/quote]Militant magic is not for casual sale in my Circle - its possible only under unique circumstances with restrictions and conventions to observe in battle and templar presence to limit abuses - and then only with joint chantry-circle approval.

Its not "come one - come all - hire our mages for your military adventures abroad."

And I mentioned this elsewhere - earlier in this thread.

I don't want to keep repeating myself.

[quote]No, what I'm saying is that an ideology of international human rights doesn't exist.[/quote]It doesn't need to - and I'm done talking about it.

[quote]You're talking about convincing one village to be taxed so that they can read reports about the state of the Anderfell Circle, a place in a country so far away they'll never visit, only heard about in stories, dealing with the lives of people who they've never met and addressing issues they've never experienced.[/quote]And I've said time and again - they don't have to donate a copper if they don't wish to.

Again - done debating it.

And yes - there is far more human interest and political involvement in thedosian communities than you give them credit for - so this can work if they choose to donate - and they don't have to read about a remote circle.

Reading about their own if they participate - that's good enough - the crowns will care about the functioning of other circles as their interests cannot be separated from them all.

[quote]Are you listening to yourself?[/quote]Don't patronize me.

[quote]Do you understand the kind of social and political environment that's required to start having things like commitees?[/quote]The mages have the support of Justinia V - the Chantry head - that's undeniable and important - until Adrian pulled her little stunt to ensure a rebellion - Justinia had compromise rammed down the templars' and seekers' throats.

She makes short speeches about the necessity of fair treatment for mages and fairness in dealing with the circles throughout Asunder as well.

Things were going to change come hell or high water with her as Divine.

And when the mage-templar war is done - by circumstance the templars will have been busted down and forced into leniance. They will have no choice but to comply.

And the foundation for joint committees is there - currently the chantry has conventions and laws on magic the circles must observe - and mages have the college and their individual circle councils in which to make circle policy - they **** at each other when they want/need to do or not do something.

The Grand Enchanter serves as an advisor to the Divine - to do this in part - essentially - if not officially as part of the job.

I'm bringing together the chantry and circle to do it full time - formally agreed to by treaty - to ensure communication is open moreso than its ever been - to ensure sorely needed joint regulation is happening.

[quote]And how do you think regulation will actually work? Do you know the kind of infrastructure that's necessary to actually regulate an industry? You're talking about creating the equivalent of the SEC for mages. This can't work without an actual international government.[/quote]And you think the Circle and magic and templars are entirely unregulated now under the Chantry and Circle of Magi? Okay. That's rather asinine if so - but okay.

I won't argue you further. We're done with this point.

[quote]Do you know how regulatory abuses or failures are deal with in the real world? The judiciary. So now are you going to create an international court of justice?[/quote]I don't have to create this as if from thin air by your tone.

A system something like this - if not this - already exists.

In DA2 - Anders complains that Kirkwall mages are being refused appearances "at court" when he lists templar abuses of power [the others he mentions with this: mages being made tranquil for small offenses and being locked in their cell].

The templars were blocking them from attending court - obviously to prevent their violations and abuses from being known and punished - and they could do that because they had crazy control over the city of Kirkwall.

It was a unique situation - but that kind of situation will not happen when templars are busted down in number in my system.

[quote]And where are the laws and rules that governs these committees set down?[/quote]New laws hashed out in treaty negotiations if necessary - with conventions to make amendments to things later.

[quote]Do we have teams of lawyers going through reams of jurisprudence?[/quote]I'd have to see how mage court appearances are done now before I decide what changes need to be made to make it more effective - but I'd imagine they have advocates if nothing else now.

[quote]And which countries have the jurisdiction to deal with these disputes?[/quote]This already happens - mages go to court already - so anywhere a circle exists a court to handle this exists.

[quote]Your fantasy scenario doesn't work - and can't work - without an international goverment. It's why the UN and the ICJ don't function in practice.[/quote]
It already exists - they have court processes for abuses in the circle already.

The circles are autonomous now - there has always been a need to handle regulatory abuse by templars - and I doubt the Circle ever agreed to let the templars and Chantry punish themselves under the Nevarran Accord.

That would be stupid.

International government? Its called the Chantry.

The Chantry can retrieve your child from your home and take them away forever - absolutely they're backed by the thedosian nations in doing it.

Its law -  and there is punishment for breaking it  - as Cullen tells Hawke when Bethany is taken to the Circle at the end of Act 1 in DA2. Anders comments on it as well.

Chantry law has firm root in all thedosian nations - it is part of state law - in effect if not officially - and already templar and magi offenses can be punished by the state. Regulatory abuses punished by the state - its possible.

What isn't punished by the state - the Chantry and Circle together can cover.

And don't patronize me.

Its tiresome - and certainly doesn't make me want to even entertain talking to you about this at all.

I'm stopping here for today.

These posts are becoming monstrous - I don't have the time to write out a response everyday - its going to take me days already to work through your last post in full - and the more of it I read - the angrier I become.

Perhaps I should simply spare myself the headache and cap this debate now.

In Exile - I think we're done.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 08 janvier 2014 - 07:09 .

[dragonflight288]

She has repeated herself time and again. What she's proposing does limit the Circle's influence in the wider world, keeps them contained to a single area, limits how much authority and control the templars have, holds mages and templars both accountable, power is shared between the Chantry, the Circle's, and the Nobility of the individual countries, and if a Circle goes rogue, there are harsh countermeasures put in place by limiting their lyrium supply. No lyrium=no enchanting. No enchanting=no profit. No profit=no food, clothing and other necessities.

This system is simply the best thing I've seen proposed that accomplishes all the stated goals of both sides.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I agree. Of all ideas proposed thus far, Youth4Ever's is definitely the most planned out and efficient ones I've seen.