956 réponses à ce sujet

[Incantrix]

Ha, you like to hate on mages until you need them. Make them tranquil and let's see how the darkspawn threat and Qunari threat works. 
I personally think mages should just have their own "country". Throw a whole bunch of templars around (not to kill but for their own protection from demons) and leave well enough alone. Build schools where it's mandatory for children to attend (else they are hunted down and become tranquil) and let the mages have their own way of life. Sort of like the tevinter, just with no slaves and internal protection with templar presense everywhere. 

 

[ianvillan]

Incantrix wrote...

Ha, you like to hate on mages until you need them. Make them tranquil and let's see how the darkspawn threat and Qunari threat works. 
I personally think mages should just have their own "country". Throw a whole bunch of templars around (not to kill but for their own protection from demons) and leave well enough alone. Build schools where it's mandatory for children to attend (else they are hunted down and become tranquil) and let the mages have their own way of life. Sort of like the tevinter, just with no slaves and internal protection with templar presense everywhere. 

 

I still think the Mages and the Dalish and the city elves should join together and have their own nation.

The Mages can help the Elves with protection and find if the Dalish claims about immortality were true.
The City Elves can help the other groups survive as a nation and bring a balance to them.
The Dalish can help the mages because they have had mages in there clans all the time and know how to work together where no one is above the other.

There you would have a nation with the Dalish idea that normal and mage are equal and the whole group should take care of each other.

The city Elves and Mages with stop the Dalish from being isolationist and prejudiced against Humans.

The Dalish and City Elves would prevent the mages from becoming another Tevinter.

[Incantrix]

ianvillan wrote...

Incantrix wrote...

Ha, you like to hate on mages until you need them. Make them tranquil and let's see how the darkspawn threat and Qunari threat works. 
I personally think mages should just have their own "country". Throw a whole bunch of templars around (not to kill but for their own protection from demons) and leave well enough alone. Build schools where it's mandatory for children to attend (else they are hunted down and become tranquil) and let the mages have their own way of life. Sort of like the tevinter, just with no slaves and internal protection with templar presense everywhere. 

 

I still think the Mages and the Dalish and the city elves should join together and have their own nation.

The Mages can help the Elves with protection and find if the Dalish claims about immortality were true.
The City Elves can help the other groups survive as a nation and bring a balance to them.
The Dalish can help the mages because they have had mages in there clans all the time and know how to work together where no one is above the other.

There you would have a nation with the Dalish idea that normal and mage are equal and the whole group should take care of each other.

The city Elves and Mages with stop the Dalish from being isolationist and prejudiced against Humans.

The Dalish and City Elves would prevent the mages from becoming another Tevinter.

Maybe just give the Dales back? That would be good land.

[TheKomandorShepard]

n7stormrunner wrote...



demons can be traped the warden alone runs into almost a dozen, among them pride demons. templars can't force demons mages can, weakness is the sin that causes such disaster why are so many mages so weak I wonder?

Normal mages can't do that only blood mages (which increases chance of being possessed) with as far poor results in most cases even if you manage it still tend end badly like in merril case.Uldred who was rather one of this more powerful mages still ended as snack for pride demon because he wasn't able to control him and he studied demonology...

Templars can't control demons but they can fight with them better than mages or non-mages well at least they have advantage over others when they face demon still we saw how that works in reality...

to answers above
Yes totally creating country for mages won't end second tevinter i already can see it  i mark this idea as super naive...

Another matter that someone is ignoring danger of abomnation mages don't need shcool mages need prison if non-mages want safety and current prison wasn't very effective when it comes about controling mages and protecting non-mages from mages.Every sign we saw was that circles are to lax and uneffective making school is very bad idea when prison failed when it comes about safety. 

About elves and mages idea is totally naive simple evles will be racist and hostile toward humans dalish or not we saw that elves are racist as humans i don't mention racist human mage they will eat each other or simple mark human mages as worse.I don't even mention that city elves think that dales are brutal savages (and in some cases they are right) and dales think about city elves as dogs.

Another matter is that it won't solve problem of abomnations so another idea super naive.  

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 24 janvier 2014 - 11:31 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Thedosian reliance on magic is what is preventing technological advancements.

Do you have evidence to support this? I don't recall seeing any in the games that reliance on magic in and of itself keeps society from advancing technology wise, as most mages are kept locked up in Circle's their whole life.

And yes, I know they use magic for just about everything in the White Spire, using magic to light all the rooms and such, but outside the heart of the Chantry, and the country where the Circle's were founded there is next to no evidence of this being true. Other than Tevinter of course. 

It is a matter of logic. There are two main groups on Thedas who does all the research, the Chantry and the Circle. Both of these groups have easy access to magic, which means that the incentive to develop an alternative is weak. Why bother with long arduous invention of the lightbulb, when you have a ready access to magical light? Why bother with engineering a cannon, when you can much more easily get a mage to fill the same role a cannon would on the battlefield? Why bother with medical research when mages have proven much more effective?
Sure SOME research may still happen in all these fields, but it would be severely limited, simply because of the lack of incentive to do so.

[The Elder King]

@ianvillain: I really doubt that the dalish would create a nation with human mages. You shouldn't forget that human mages are the ones who destroyed their first homeland and made them slaves.

[dragonflight288]

@ Emperor.

It's also a matter of taking things in perspective. Ser Perth while defending Redcliff doesn't want anything to do with magic as he believes it's nothing but a curse. Ser Bryant, while a very cool templar, describes magic as unholy and cursed when describing how templars fight mages.. You hear many people in Origins (usually from the gossipers when they talk about mages) thinkt emplars should just kill mages.

Add in the Alrik's tranquil solution, which was denied but no one bothered investigating all the new tranquil in the Gallows and Meredith lived right there so she had to secretly approve is just plain incompetent as a templar, the Revered Mother in Awakening pretty much preaching against mages that first time you walk into the Chantry, or that one con-man who pretended to be a healer and was killed on sight without question by templars and I don't see a society that is reliant on magic but one that is absolutely terrified of it. So terrified that there are many people who even refuse to allow the study of anatomy because they consider it a form of blood magic.

Sure, the heart of the Chantry and the birthplace of the Circles will use magic in their day to day lives, but outside of Val Reyauex, Tevinters and the Circle's, I don't see anyone relying on magic at all. Rather the opposite.

[Grieving Natashina]

I just caught up on the thread. I noticed people kept saying that the Chant of Light calls magic a curse. I read the entire Chant and nowhere did I see magic being called a curse. This is the only part of the entire Chant that comes close to saying that:

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond.

The Chant calls magic a gift, not a curse. It's only those that use magic to harm and subjugate others that shall be named Maleficar. Look, I'm not the biggest Chantry supporter, but we should get our facts straight.

Carry on.

Modifié par Starsyn, 24 janvier 2014 - 03:19 .

[dragonflight288]

Starsyn wrote...

I just caught up on the thread. I noticed people kept saying that the Chant of Light calls magic a curse. I read the entire Chant and nowhere did I see magic being called a curse. This is the only part of the entire Chant that comes close to saying that:

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond.

The Chant calls magic a gift, not a curse. It's only those that use magic to harm and subjugate others that shall be named Maleficar. Look, I'm not the biggest Chantry supporter, but we should get our facts straight.

Carry on.

It's the Chantry and those who follow them that seem to think that magic is a curse in and of itself. Sure, there are also members who say otherwise (Justinia, Gregoire and so on) but I have pointed out several people who say 'magic is a curse and that's all it is' in the game. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

@ Emperor.

It's also a matter of taking things in perspective. Ser Perth while defending Redcliff doesn't want anything to do with magic as he believes it's nothing but a curse. Ser Bryant, while a very cool templar, describes magic as unholy and cursed when describing how templars fight mages.. You hear many people in Origins (usually from the gossipers when they talk about mages) thinkt emplars should just kill mages.

Sure, the heart of the Chantry and the birthplace of the Circles will use magic in their day to day lives, but outside of Val Reyauex, Tevinters and the Circle's, I don't see anyone relying on magic at all. Rather the opposite.

Outside the CHantry and the CIrlces the ONLY ones who have the means to conduct any kind of research would be nobles, and they are only just beginning such endeavors in Orlais. Or do you expect peasants to give up their harvest to try and invent the gear? Then starve to death afterwards.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

@ Emperor.

It's also a matter of taking things in perspective. Ser Perth while defending Redcliff doesn't want anything to do with magic as he believes it's nothing but a curse. Ser Bryant, while a very cool templar, describes magic as unholy and cursed when describing how templars fight mages.. You hear many people in Origins (usually from the gossipers when they talk about mages) thinkt emplars should just kill mages.

Sure, the heart of the Chantry and the birthplace of the Circles will use magic in their day to day lives, but outside of Val Reyauex, Tevinters and the Circle's, I don't see anyone relying on magic at all. Rather the opposite.

Outside the CHantry and the CIrlces the ONLY ones who have the means to conduct any kind of research would be nobles, and they are only just beginning such endeavors in Orlais. Or do you expect peasants to give up their harvest to try and invent the gear? Then starve to death afterwards.

I don't expect anything like that at all. I was simply making it very clear that societies don't rely on magic for all aspects of their daily lives outside of Val Reayeaux, Tevinter and the Circle's themselves, and blaming their lack of technological progression strictly on that mindset simply cannot be true. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

@ Emperor.

It's also a matter of taking things in perspective. Ser Perth while defending Redcliff doesn't want anything to do with magic as he believes it's nothing but a curse. Ser Bryant, while a very cool templar, describes magic as unholy and cursed when describing how templars fight mages.. You hear many people in Origins (usually from the gossipers when they talk about mages) thinkt emplars should just kill mages.

Sure, the heart of the Chantry and the birthplace of the Circles will use magic in their day to day lives, but outside of Val Reyauex, Tevinters and the Circle's, I don't see anyone relying on magic at all. Rather the opposite.

Outside the CHantry and the CIrlces the ONLY ones who have the means to conduct any kind of research would be nobles, and they are only just beginning such endeavors in Orlais. Or do you expect peasants to give up their harvest to try and invent the gear? Then starve to death afterwards.

I don't expect anything like that at all. I was simply making it very clear that societies don't rely on magic for all aspects of their daily lives outside of Val Reayeaux, Tevinter and the Circle's themselves, and blaming their lack of technological progression strictly on that mindset simply cannot be true. 

The ones with the capacity to do the research necessary to advance technologically are relying on magic, which means no technological advances will be made.

[Lord Raijin]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...


By
Chantry law Isolde and her husband was haboring an illegal apostate
which can lead them to their execution. Forget hiring a tutor the kid
should've went to the circle where he would've been able to get proper
training to wield his magic under proper Templar supervision.

Connor
was not at fault for getting posessed. It was his parents fault and not
him. How can you honestly blame a kid for getting possessed?

No because if i renember he made deal with demon not islode... as he destroyed town and castle not isolde... and i can blame him but this is pointless because you can blame everyone you want... as i said what matters that no connor = no abomnation even if isolde was stupid and loghain corrupted.

Connor is just a damn kid. He doesn't know any better. How can you possibly blame him for making a deal with a demon when his parents are selfishly holding him back from getting adequate amount of education for wielding magic and being able to resist demonic tempations? The fact that they're willing to snatch up any mage from the streets to tutor their son in secrecy shows how much of irrrsponsible parents they are. They both deserve to be executed, especially after what happen to their city. Don't the love ones who became a victim deserve justice?

[Veruin]

Lord Raijin wrote...
Connor is just a damn kid. He doesn't know any better. How can you possibly blame him for making a deal with a demon when his parents are selfishly holding him back from getting adequate amount of education for wielding magic and being able to resist demonic tempations? The fact that they're willing to snatch up any mage from the streets to tutor their son in secrecy shows how much of irrrsponsible parents they are. They both deserve to be executed, especially after what happen to their city. Don't the love ones who became a victim deserve justice?

I'm sorry, both?  Eamon was never aware that Connor had magic.  It's also a little hard to be a parent when your in a coma.

Modifié par Veruin, 24 janvier 2014 - 04:39 .

[TK514]

Veruin wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
Connor is just a damn kid. He doesn't know any better. How can you possibly blame him for making a deal with a demon when his parents are selfishly holding him back from getting adequate amount of education for wielding magic and being able to resist demonic tempations? The fact that they're willing to snatch up any mage from the streets to tutor their son in secrecy shows how much of irrrsponsible parents they are. They both deserve to be executed, especially after what happen to their city. Don't the love ones who became a victim deserve justice?

I'm sorry, both?  Eamon was never aware that Connor had magic.  It's also a little hard to be a parent when your in a coma.

I was going to say...

It's explicit in the game that Eamon didn't know Connor was a Mage until after the Ashes were recovered.  Isolde hid it from him specifically because she knew he'd do his duty and send Connor to the Circle.  She was a bit of an idiot, as overprotective parents tend to be, but we knew that already.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

@ Emperor.

It's also a matter of taking things in perspective. Ser Perth while defending Redcliff doesn't want anything to do with magic as he believes it's nothing but a curse. Ser Bryant, while a very cool templar, describes magic as unholy and cursed when describing how templars fight mages.. You hear many people in Origins (usually from the gossipers when they talk about mages) thinkt emplars should just kill mages.

Sure, the heart of the Chantry and the birthplace of the Circles will use magic in their day to day lives, but outside of Val Reyauex, Tevinters and the Circle's, I don't see anyone relying on magic at all. Rather the opposite.

Outside the CHantry and the CIrlces the ONLY ones who have the means to conduct any kind of research would be nobles, and they are only just beginning such endeavors in Orlais. Or do you expect peasants to give up their harvest to try and invent the gear? Then starve to death afterwards.

I don't expect anything like that at all. I was simply making it very clear that societies don't rely on magic for all aspects of their daily lives outside of Val Reayeaux, Tevinter and the Circle's themselves, and blaming their lack of technological progression strictly on that mindset simply cannot be true. 

The ones with the capacity to do the research necessary to advance technologically are relying on magic, which means no technological advances will be made.

Not true. Dworkin was working on making explosives to rival the Qunari in Awakening, and the dwarves have the most advanced armor/weaponsmithing and enchantments (that I know of.) But the Qunari started hunting Dworkin down because they'll kill or forcibly convert anyone who can accomplish what they already have.

So again, what you said isn't completely true. There is also Qunari sabatoge for those who DO research new technologies. 

[The Baconer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
The ones with the capacity to do the research necessary to advance technologically are relying on magic, which means no technological advances will be made.

Technological development is non-existant because people like their pseudo-medieval RPG worlds to remain static.

... Though pretty soon the Qunari are going to have it both ways.

[Lord Raijin]

TK514 wrote...

Veruin wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
Connor is just a damn kid. He doesn't know any better. How can you possibly blame him for making a deal with a demon when his parents are selfishly holding him back from getting adequate amount of education for wielding magic and being able to resist demonic tempations? The fact that they're willing to snatch up any mage from the streets to tutor their son in secrecy shows how much of irrrsponsible parents they are. They both deserve to be executed, especially after what happen to their city. Don't the love ones who became a victim deserve justice?

I'm sorry, both?  Eamon was never aware that Connor had magic.  It's also a little hard to be a parent when your in a coma.

I was going to say...

It's explicit in the game that Eamon didn't know Connor was a Mage until after the Ashes were recovered.  Isolde hid it from him specifically because she knew he'd do his duty and send Connor to the Circle.  She was a bit of an idiot, as overprotective parents tend to be, but we knew that already.

If Eamon did not know that his son was a mage then I take it back. He doesn't deserve to be executed. It is his wife that should. None of this would've happen if Connor was taken to the Circle to get proper training and guidence among his peers.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 24 janvier 2014 - 05:49 .

[The Elder King]

Yeah, Eamon didn't know. Isolde feared that Eamon would've sent his son to the Circle. Which he did, and would've likely done before his illness.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Not true. Dworkin was working on making explosives to rival the Qunari in Awakening, and the dwarves have the most advanced armor/weaponsmithing and enchantments (that I know of.) But the Qunari started hunting Dworkin down because they'll kill or forcibly convert anyone who can accomplish what they already have.

So again, what you said isn't completely true. There is also Qunari sabatoge for those who DO research new technologies. 

I was not including Qunari or Dwarves, since both cultures obviously don't rely on magic. And the Qunari only sabotage those that makes research into gunpowder and its like.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lord Raijin wrote...


Connor is just a damn kid. He doesn't know any better. How can you possibly blame him for making a deal with a demon when his parents are selfishly holding him back from getting adequate amount of education for wielding magic and being able to resist demonic tempations? The fact that they're willing to snatch up any mage from the streets to tutor their son in secrecy shows how much of irrrsponsible parents they are. They both deserve to be executed, especially after what happen to their city. Don't the love ones who became a victim deserve justice?

And again it wasn't isolde who caused destruction only connor remove isolde and connor would cause it anyway.And you say that if he ended in circle that wouldn't happen and yet look on circle and what happened he would just ended as another snack for demon.Simple mages are unpredictable and can turn into abomnation at every moment of their lifes as was that proven many times.But unstable nuclear bomb is real problem not dumb owner who is in love with it so you need remove first and for best both to be safe. 

[Pasquale1234]

There are some other potential (likely?) results of Tranquiling (or slaughtering) all mages that I've not seen discussed.

I'd like to consider the reaction of the demon realm if the numbers of non-tranquil mages were severely reduced.

We know that mages aren't the only possible hosts for demon possession.  Demons do seek to possess mages because that magic gives them greater power - and we have seen demons compete for a mage's attention, as in the fade sequence with Feynriel.

Some of the non-mage demonic possessions we've seen include:
Arcane Horrors
Revenants
Shambling, Devouring, Walking, Enraged Corpses
Shambling, Devouring, Fanged Skeletons, Skeleton Archer, Skeleton Mage
Witherfang
Sophia Dryden
Amalia
Wilmod
The Harimanns
etc.

I would suggest a couple of different possibilities:

- With fewer non-tranquil mages in the population, demons would be constantly vying for them, such as what we saw with Feynriel.

- Demons may be more likely to seek mundane hosts, particularly those seeking power (like Loghain, Howe, Lady Harimann).  Mundanes with zero knowledge of the fade and zero training in demon resistance.  Mundanes like the companions we took to the fade to rescue Feynriel, all of whom accepted the demons' offer.

The bottom line here is that tranquiling or slaughtering mages has zero impact on the demon realm and its inhabitants.  They'll still be there, still looking for some way to cross the veil and experience life by possessing a host.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 24 janvier 2014 - 07:53 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

There are some other potential (likely?) results of Tranquiling (or slaughtering) all mages that I've not seen discussed.

I'd like to consider the reaction of the demon realm if the numbers of non-tranquil mages were severely reduced.

We know that mages aren't the only possible hosts for demon possession.  Demons do seek to possess mages because that magic gives them greater power - and we have seen demons compete for a mage's attention, as in the fade sequence with Feynriel.

Some of the non-mage demonic possessions we've seen include:
Arcane Horrors
Revenants
Shambling, Devouring, Walking, Enraged Corpses
Shambling, Devouring, Fanged Skeletons, Skeleton Archer, Skeleton Mage
Witherfang
Sophia Dryden
Amalia
Wilmod
etc.

I would suggest a couple of different possibilities:

- With fewer non-tranquil mages in the population, demons would be constantly vying for them, such as what we saw with Feynriel.

- Demons may be more likely to seek mundane hosts, particularly those seeking power (like Loghain or Howe).  Mundanes with zero knowledge of the fade and zero training in demon resistance.  Mundanes like the companions we took to the fade to rescue Feynriel, all of whom accepted the demons' offer.

The bottom line here is that tranquiling or slaughtering mages has zero impact on the demon realm and its inhabitants.  They'll still be there, still looking for some way to cross the veil and experience life by possessing a host.

Not rly demons can possess non-mage only when demon crossed veil mages are demon portals so lets alone power demons seek them becuase they are portals for them.Every example you mentioned included demon/spirit being summoned by mage other cases are where demon able to cross because it is weak and it is weak because of using magic or large massacre was in case and still this is very slow way to weaken veil.

Only negative consequences when mages are killed is lack of grey warden of course if rumors that mage is needed for joining are true but still few mages for grey wardens should solve this problem.  

[Pasquale1234]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Not rly demons can possess non-mage only when demon crossed veil

Which they are able to do.

Mundanes also enter the fade, but only while sleeping.

The wiki tells us that in the case of abominations, the demon is still in the fade, using it's host's body like a puppet.  Killing the body does not kill the demon, it only sends it back to the fade.  If mages can be possessed because their minds / spirits travel to the fade while they are sleeping, then so can mundanes.

Demons aren't going to stop trying to cross the veil or possessing hosts just because there are fewer mage hosts available.  They'll seek other targets.

Every example you mentioned included demon/spirit being summoned by mage

False.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 24 janvier 2014 - 08:49 .