956 réponses à ce sujet

[Tremere]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

GabrielXL wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

So what he still caused all that mess remove connor there is no mess kill isolde mess still would be in case.Now you are using excuse that connor was abomnation because of isolde but how do you know he wouldn't end as one without isolde?As i said mage can have 10000 excuses like "i wanted power" , "i was too dumb" , "i wanted cure my girlfriend" . We have massive amount of mages that were trained and still ended as demon snack.No isolde no loghain can turn into abomnation only mage can.And again mages are unstable nuclear weapon circle , no circle their life is russian roulette but instead 1 bullet we have 4.And if you want aruge that in circle he would ended better see broken circle quest what i pointed...       

As true as your statement may be, consider this... Loghain used his might and influence as a Warrior to turn people against the very ones who could/would save Thedas from the blight. He used that same might and influence to enslave a portion of the populace in order to serve his desire to rule. He likely allowed his "second", (Rendon Howe) to imprison his daughter... How exactly is this different than a Mage abusing his power? Also, we know that demons can possess beings other than Mages, like... say "Templars"... "Trees"... "Animals"... little girls (Amalia). So saying that only Mages are susceptible to becoming abominations is completely false.

Because loghian was leader and had army behind him and that means he is dependent on peoples who might turn on him or just refuse doing that for example i doubt that he would simple order kill everyone in ferelden.Now we have for example single mage he isn't charismatic , he don't have army of peoples and don't have any restrictions and moral qualms (as abomnation) what he have he have vast power and he is destroying everything that want. You can ask yourself what would be more dangerous Hitler or doomsday hitler had political power so he was restricted doomsday had personal power so he wasn't bound by anything.

So ultimately loghain is danger on national scale at worst but he is normal person in that.Abomnation is danger for everything on national scale to world scale and it will kill peoples and spread destruction nothing more it can cause end of the world.Loghian at worst will pull genocide against orlesians and i doubt that he would be successful in that. 

First... Your assertion only makes sense if you apply the same criterion to the Mage. It's not like he/she would be walking the world, destroying whatever he/she chose, without opposition. This includes opposition from other mages who might not share his/her world view. By the same token, the mage could very well have allies who do share the same view or are at least sympathetic. You're painting the scenario in very broad strokes and while I see your point, it overstates the mages ability and perhaps his/her level of influence.

My point in all of this is that regardless of the scale on which the "person" is operating, tyranny is tyranny. Whether it's expressed with a spell or a sword or a book, it can be damaging to anyone who stands in it's way. Saying that only mages are capable of doing damage on a grand scale effectively disregards things like, the empires that were established at the end of a sword and under the premise that "might makes right" (whoever is strongest makes the rules). Clearly you don't need magic to make such a situation possible.

Modifié par GabrielXL, 28 janvier 2014 - 09:34 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

GabrielXL wrote...


First... Your assertion only makes sense if you apply the same criterion to the Mage. It's not like he/she would be walking the world, destroying whatever he/she chose, without opposition. This includes opposition from other mages who might not share his/her world view. By the same token, the mage could very well have allies who do share the same view or are at least sympathetic. You're painting the scenario in very broad strokes and while I see your point, it overstates the mages ability and perhaps his/her level of influence.

My point in all of this is that regardless of the scale on which the "person" is operating, tyranny is tyranny. Whether it's expressed with a spell or a sword or a book, it can be damaging to anyone who stands in it's way. Saying that only mages are capable of doing damage on a grand scale effectively disregards things like, the empires that were established at the end of a sword and under the premise that "might makes right" (whoever is strongest makes the rules). Clearly you don't need magic to make such a situation possible.

I wasn't talking about mage well in certain way i was but i was talking about abomnation which is massive power up for mage (how much depends on what type demon possesed mage).Abomnations have no morality , no rules or aren't bond by any law their goal is spread death and destruction.Mage can't match abomnations (as we seen in circle tower) so other mage for abomnation is host for other demon.I think that mages are weak in normal form unless blood mages or abomnations but i will left that.

Nope loghain may be tyran but abomnation won't be tyrant it will spread destruction and make more abomnations or simple will create undead by summoning spirit to possess corpses like in redcliff. So as i said hitler isn't that same as doomsday first doomsday is incomparably dangerous because it wields much more personal power than hitler second hitler didn't had mindset kill everything on earth... 

so lets compare loghain at worst will be tyrant in ferledn (1 country!) abomnation at worst will destroy and kill everyone in thedas. 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 28 janvier 2014 - 10:22 .

[The Elder King]

@Rassler: the first time Vengeance came is in the short story. You know, where Anders loses control and when he woke up he saw templars and Wardens being torned and chewed. He realized back then that 'Justice' was gone (plus, in the first dialogue with him he didn't say that Justice became Vengeance when he saw Karl. The way he talked makes it clear that he was aware of Justice's corruption before. And you forgot that Anders glows for a second the first time he meets Hawke).
I know that you don't like that story, but unless Bioware states otherwise, it's canon.

[Lulupab]

hhh89 wrote...

@Rassler: the first time Vengeance came is in the short story. You know, where Anders loses control and when he woke up he saw templars and Wardens being torned and chewed. He realized back then that 'Justice' was gone (plus, in the first dialogue with him he didn't say that Justice became Vengeance when he saw Karl. The way he talked makes it clear that he was aware of Justice's corruption before. And you forgot that Anders glows for a second the first time he meets Hawke).
I know that you don't like that story, but unless Bioware states otherwise, it's canon.

I know but that scene is different. Anders goes "NOOOOOOOOOOO" passes out Justice comes out. I am aware it was corrupted before but surely this event played a significant role in regards to what happened in the end of the game.

[The Elder King]

The fact that Karl died obviously influenced Anders, yes. As well as nearly killing/killing Ella.
The 'noooo' part was because his friend/lover was tranquilized. It's a normal reaction, that he'd have even if he wasn't merged with Justice.

[Lotion Soronarr]

GabrielXL wrote...
First... Your assertion only makes sense if you apply the same criterion to the Mage. It's not like he/she would be walking the world, destroying whatever he/she chose, without opposition. This includes opposition from other mages who might not share his/her world view. By the same token, the mage could very well have allies who do share the same view or are at least sympathetic. You're painting the scenario in very broad strokes and while I see your point, it overstates the mages ability and perhaps his/her level of influence.

My point in all of this is that regardless of the scale on which the "person" is operating, tyranny is tyranny. Whether it's expressed with a spell or a sword or a book, it can be damaging to anyone who stands in it's way. Saying that only mages are capable of doing damage on a grand scale effectively disregards things like, the empires that were established at the end of a sword and under the premise that "might makes right" (whoever is strongest makes the rules). Clearly you don't need magic to make such a situation possible.

Mages and nobls are different.

Normal rulers rely on people and wealth. Wealth can be taken from them. People can refuse to follow them. Their power is not intrinsic to htem. Their power does not have demons following them.

Could Loghain have destroyed a town at the age of 10? No. Connor could. Connor almost did.
Can normal rulers mind control poeple?
Do normal rulers get possesed?
Do they act against their will?

Alas, giving people power so they can do stuff in an organized society is not going away. People with power of any kind can do harm. But not all kinds of power are equal.

[thetinyevil]

eluvianix wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

@eluvianix The person on your new avatar looks like a younger version of Ser Karras

Hush you. My avatar looks nothing like that monster.

I hate to say this, and I am not being mean or nasty in anyway...but your Avatar looks like a young Alirk with hair and full beard and mustash.
Sorry.

Fixed my avatar. Now is he aesthetically pleasing enough to you now!!!!!!!!!! It's my favorite Hawke, so don't make fun of him, please.

I'm sorry. I really wasn't trying to be a ****. 

Modifié par thetinyevil, 28 janvier 2014 - 05:27 .

[Tremere]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

GabrielXL wrote...
First... Your assertion only makes sense if you apply the same criterion to the Mage. It's not like he/she would be walking the world, destroying whatever he/she chose, without opposition. This includes opposition from other mages who might not share his/her world view. By the same token, the mage could very well have allies who do share the same view or are at least sympathetic. You're painting the scenario in very broad strokes and while I see your point, it overstates the mages ability and perhaps his/her level of influence.

My point in all of this is that regardless of the scale on which the "person" is operating, tyranny is tyranny. Whether it's expressed with a spell or a sword or a book, it can be damaging to anyone who stands in it's way. Saying that only mages are capable of doing damage on a grand scale effectively disregards things like, the empires that were established at the end of a sword and under the premise that "might makes right" (whoever is strongest makes the rules). Clearly you don't need magic to make such a situation possible.

Mages and nobls are different.

Normal rulers rely on people and wealth. Wealth can be taken from them. People can refuse to follow them. Their power is not intrinsic to htem. Their power does not have demons following them.

Could Loghain have destroyed a town at the age of 10? No. Connor could. Connor almost did.
Can normal rulers mind control poeple?
Do normal rulers get possesed?
Do they act against their will?

Alas, giving people power so they can do stuff in an organized society is not going away. People with power of any kind can do harm. But not all kinds of power are equal.

Mages are different, period. Nobles are different from commoners. Loghain was no noble and yet he wreaked havoc on commoner and noble alike. Could he have done it at age 10? Probably not, but that is irrelevant because of his station in life (at the time). He would have never been in a position to do what he did, so stating what he could or could not have done (at that point in his life) is irrelevant or at best conjectural. Put in context, could a farmer (which Loghain was) destroy a town at age 10? Possibly. A curious child dabbling in things he barely understands (like Connor) could wreak havoc on crops and perhaps cause the loss of said crops or at worst a plague (of sorts).

I notice that you once again use the argument that not all power is equal and to that I will once again state what I did the first time. "What does it matter to the person who is being subjected to it's abuse?" If you're beating someone over the head with a stick or a hammer, I doubt it matters very much to the person you're hitting. To an even greater extreme, if you're hitting someone over the head with a stick or kicking them in the ass (because you can), I doubt it matters to that person what method you use. You're abusing your power and level of influence. So again...  "I agree that not all power is equal, but it's all capable of being abused." That is and always has been my point in this discussion and any like it.

In the context of this thread, let's say that Alrik's "solution" worked. What would be next? Do you really think the Andrastian chantry would stop there? Zeal turned into fanaticism is a reflection of power and influence taken to the extreme and yet very few seem willing to address that mindset because it feeds into some people's need to be right in spite of any ethical or moral concerns. Fear and hatred are poor foundations on which to form consensus and yet it's done all the time "for the sake of the greater good".

Modifié par GabrielXL, 28 janvier 2014 - 06:22 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Loghain was a Teyrn, so he definitely was a noble. He just didn't have any noble or royal blood in him, since his parents were farmers.

And the point is that a noble alone, no matter what power his title may bring, is still just a man.

[Tremere]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Loghain was a Teyrn, so he definitely was a noble. He just didn't have any noble or royal blood in him, since his parents were farmers.

And the point is that a noble alone, no matter what power his title may bring, is still just a man.

On the contrary... Loghain was given a title. The nobility and likely most of the populace never regarded him as nobility. Ser Bryant (the Templar in Lothering) said as much.

I'm curious, does being a Mage disqualify one from being human? Man or woman?

Modifié par GabrielXL, 28 janvier 2014 - 08:52 .

[Veruin]

 Are we back to the idiotic idea that because mages aren't given the exact same freedoms as the downtrodden commoners, they aren't human? <_<

[Hellion Rex]

Oi vei. Around and around we go in circles...but hey. It's all we got until some new info gets released.

[KaiserShep]

GabrielXL wrote...

In the context of this thread, let's say that Alrik's "solution" worked. What would be next? Do you really think the Andrastian chantry would stop there? Zeal turned into fanaticism is a reflection of power and influence taken to the extreme and yet very few seem willing to address that mindset because it feeds into some people's need to be right in spite of any ethical or moral concerns. Fear and hatred are poor foundations on which to form consensus and yet it's done all the time "for the sake of the greater good".

Ser Alrik's solution would be doomed from the start. Even if it worked in the beginning, it would ultimately fail. Mages will always exist in that universe, barring any extraordinary circumstances that suddenly cut everyone off from all forms of magic. What do you do when you have a vast population of people who have been lobotomized by the templars? Rebellion would be inevitable. Imagine lots of Anders blowing up chantries left and right. And it wouldn't just be mages to worry about. In Hawke's position with Bethany alive, I'd be willing to send all templars to an early grave just to keep her alive, as would many others.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 28 janvier 2014 - 09:01 .

[Veruin]

KaiserShep wrote...
Imagine lots of Anders blowing up chantries left and right.

Chantries wouldn't be blown up left and right because most people are smart enough to pick a target that actually affects them.  Not "Herp derp, bad feelings, gotta take frustration out on something"

Modifié par Veruin, 28 janvier 2014 - 09:01 .

[KaiserShep]

And what target would that be? The focus of animosity would be toward the templars and grand clerics for allowing it to happen.

If all mages were made tranquil against their will, this wouldn't be a simple matter of "herp derp, bad feelings". It's not hard to imagine some people preferring death over having their personalities stripped from their minds.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 28 janvier 2014 - 09:07 .

[Veruin]

KaiserShep wrote...

And what target would that be? The focus of animosity would be toward the templars and grand clerics for allowing it to happen.

How about the Templars that are actually nearby?  Or do you think that once they break free of the tower, they make a march all the way to each capital city to blow up the main Chantry for that nation?

What makes you think they'd even blow up buildings in the first place?

[KaiserShep]

No doubt templars would be attacked, but striking a chantry is symbolic in nature, not about getting an optimal body count. If you're going to assault a holy order like the templars, the place where the people they answer to congregate is also a prime target, because you're not just attacking templars, but also the institution they stand for.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 28 janvier 2014 - 09:15 .

[Tremere]

Veruin wrote...

 Are we back to the idiotic idea that because mages aren't given the exact same freedoms as the downtrodden commoners, they aren't human? <_<

That's the feeling I was getting from this comment.

"And the point is that a noble alone, no matter what power his title may bring, is still just a man."

Modifié par GabrielXL, 28 janvier 2014 - 10:43 .

[KaiserShep]

Being seen as less than human is common in our own history as well, so I would take that statement to mean exactly that.

[The Elder King]

KaiserShep wrote...

Being seen as less than human is common in our own history as well, so I would take that statement to mean exactly that.

Knowing Veruin, I'd say no.

[KaiserShep]

I suppose I'll have to take your word on that, since I'm not familiar with that person.

[Tremere]

KaiserShep wrote...

GabrielXL wrote...

In the context of this thread, let's say that Alrik's "solution" worked. What would be next? Do you really think the Andrastian chantry would stop there? Zeal turned into fanaticism is a reflection of power and influence taken to the extreme and yet very few seem willing to address that mindset because it feeds into some people's need to be right in spite of any ethical or moral concerns. Fear and hatred are poor foundations on which to form consensus and yet it's done all the time "for the sake of the greater good".

Ser Alrik's solution would be doomed from the start. Even if it worked in the beginning, it would ultimately fail. Mages will always exist in that universe, barring any extraordinary circumstances that suddenly cut everyone off from all forms of magic. What do you do when you have a vast population of people who have been lobotomized by the templars? Rebellion would be inevitable. Imagine lots of Anders blowing up chantries left and right. And it wouldn't just be mages to worry about. In Hawke's position with Bethany alive, I'd be willing to send all templars to an early grave just to keep her alive, as would many others.

All hypotheticals aside, my feeling is that Mages have a right, if not an obligation to defend themselves against unjust persecution... As does any oppressed people. As I said in my earlier comment, "Mundanes believe they have domain over normalcy" and thus believe they have a right to determine who gets to do what and how they should live. Be that as it is, the oppressed have a right to say, "I'm as entitled to the same freedom and liberties you have in spite of your fears." There are unscrupulous people on all sides of the equation and their malice is found in their hearts and their deeds. Not in their existence.

Modifié par GabrielXL, 28 janvier 2014 - 11:01 .

[MisterJB]

No one claims that there is any inherent malice in the simple existence of mages. We acknowledge the fact that your average mage is much more dangerous than your average normal person; and before you mention it, the reason I use the term "normal person" to refer to those bereft of magic is in order to avoid to have the rest of the world be defined by mages and in comparison to mages which is what the terms "mundane" or "non-mage" do; and that, logically, the restrictions placed upon them must be more severe than those placed upon others because, in a society, everyone's freedoms are restricted so that we may co-exist. This occurs automatically at birth, not because we have given evidence of being malicious, but because we are inherently dangerous by nature.
Since mages are more dangerous than the rest of the population, then it is only logical that the restrictions placed must be stricter in order to account for and reflect this increased danger.

If mages are too self-centered to acknowledge this, then normal people have the right, if not obligation to ensure their freedom and security by enforcing these restrictions upon the mages.

[TheKomandorShepard]

And how worked placing restrictions for mages? simple something that can turn unstoppable can't be tamed because abomnation wont' follow any restrictions or laws and no one is able force them to follow them as well you would try put restrictions on hulk and threaten him with police good luck. Pretty much mages escape from circles constantly and well numbers of magical "incidents" in two games speak perfectly how circles work with dealing with mages.  

GabrielXL wrote...


All hypotheticals aside, my feeling
is that Mages have a right, if not an obligation to defend themselves
against unjust persecution... As does any oppressed people. As I said in
my earlier comment, "Mundanes believe they have domain over normalcy"
and thus believe they have a right to determine who gets to do what and
how they should live. Be that as it is, the oppressed have a right to
say, "I'm as entitled to the same freedom and liberties you have in
spite of your fears." There are unscrupulous people on all sides of the
equation and their malice is found in their hearts and their deeds. Not
in their existence.

So you will let doom entire world because you feel that you are morally right?
Might makes right thats how that work in our world and in da world.Mages proven to be dangerous for entire world more than once and it is foolish for peoples even trying control them as it was proven more than once... Simple morality aside mages are dangerous and that problem need to be solved morality doesn't matter.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 29 janvier 2014 - 12:40 .

[dragonflight288]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
So you will let doom entire world because you feel that you are morally right?
Might makes right thats how that work in our world and in da world.Mages proven to be dangerous for entire world more than once and it is foolish for peoples even trying control them as it was proven more than once... Simple morality aside mages are dangerous and that problem need to be solved morality doesn't matter.

And since you have called for the extermination of all mages in the past, regardless of age as a matter of safety, you in turn would doom the world from not one, not two, but three sources, all in pursuit of your vaunted "safety" and pragmatism. 

1. Darkspawn.

Mages are needed to create the joining. Alistair outright states that lyrium is used, and Duncan asserts that he needed Circle mages to prepare the Joining for the Warden in Origins. 

If there is no joining, then there are no Grey Wardens, and without Grey Wardens then you would have no one able to kill an Archdemon in the even of a Blight, and according to the Chantry we have two more to go through. 

2. Demons and the Fade

There is in-game proof, that although it is rare, it does happen that even non-mages are just as capable of sundering the veil and allowing demons into the world from the Fade. In Rivain, after the Llmarryn Accords, both the Qunari and the Chantry broke the agreement. The Qunari, or at least those born in Rivain who converted to the Qun violated the treaty by refusing to leave, and the Chantry violated it by responding to their refusal to leave with mass slaughter. An Exalted March was called, all done by Chantry forces within Rivain itself, and they marched on the Qunari in Northern Rivain and killed them with such brutality and in such numbers that the veil itself was torn and demons started coming through.

Then the Chantry denied the attack happened at all. Charming people there. 

I have never seen a non-mage/spirit mend a torn veil. But we have multiple examples of mages doing it in the games. 

3. The Qunari.

The lore is very clear. When the Qunari showed up, they arrived with technology all of Thedas simply couldn't match. They had cannons, explosives and various poisons (gaat'lock being one.) They swept through Thedas like a flood, only really having a problem with Tevinter and a united Thedas.

But even though it took all of Thedas to hold them off, it wasn't until the mages were allowed to fight that the Qunari started getting pushed back. In order to match the Qunari cannons, they used fireballs and lightning. The mages were able to tip the scales where previously there was only defeat or stalemate.

As to the argument about mages being so inherently more dangerous than a mundane that they couldn't be trusted, there is something that must also be taken into account.

No one argues that mages are more dangerous, but I have yet to see anyone discredit how a mages capacity to help others is also so much greater than a mundane's. No mundane healer on a battlefield can so effiently heal their soldiers and get them back onto the field like a mage healer could. Nor can they do so near as fast. 

And mages are quite useful in cleansing blighted land with their capacity to summon fire from nothing and burn away the corruption. And their ability to summon ice and cold from nothing also makes them more efficient than mundanes at stopping fires. Say a fire breaks out in the square, a single mage can stop the flames far faster than a whole group of mundanes working on bringing buckets from the river or the wells.