956 réponses à ce sujet

[Tremere]

MisterJB wrote...

No one claims that there is any inherent malice in the simple existence of mages. We acknowledge the fact that your average mage is much more dangerous than your average normal person; and before you mention it, the reason I use the term "normal person" to refer to those bereft of magic is in order to avoid to have the rest of the world be defined by mages and in comparison to mages which is what the terms "mundane" or "non-mage" do; and that, logically, the restrictions placed upon them must be more severe than those placed upon others because, in a society, everyone's freedoms are restricted so that we may co-exist. This occurs automatically at birth, not because we have given evidence of being malicious, but because we are inherently dangerous by nature.
Since mages are more dangerous than the rest of the population, then it is only logical that the restrictions placed must be stricter in order to account for and reflect this increased danger.

If mages are too self-centered to acknowledge this, then normal people have the right, if not obligation to ensure their freedom and security by enforcing these restrictions upon the mages.

Your first sentence gives the impression that you've either ignored much of the dialogue in the games or you're just trolling for a reaction. In the DA game universe (thus far), the consensus is that mages are dangerous and thus malevolent by nature. To quote Cullen in DA2... "Mages cannot be our friends... etc, etc." The general populace fears them because they could "...influence the minds of nobles, grand clerics...". And who gets to decide all of this? Those who have no idea of what it is to be a mage. Their impressions are guided by a history that they aren't even certain of and largely ignore the musing of the Prophet they claim to revere who said, "Magic is to serve man and never to rule over him". How can they claim to know either way when a child (or any person with the proclivity) is "by default" thrown into a quasi-prison and treated as a pariah? Add to all of this, the hypocrisy of feeling fully entitled to rely on magic when it serves their needs as they've done on more than one occasion.

If the same criteria was applied to the general populace as it is to mages, why not just round up all the poor as well? Since they have neither the means nor the ambition to free themselves from their lives as they are, they will most certainly resort to crime and possibly murder. Does that seem over the top? How so? It could (and does) happen. You might consider my analogy a gross exagerration and you'd be right, but that's my point. Mages are persecuted for what they are, not who they are. Self-centered, self-absorbed, noble, commoner, irreverant, reverant, bold or meek... They are all perceived as dangerous and treated as such.

If mundanes are too self-absorbed to realize (or even acknowledge) the injustice of this, then mages have a right (if not an obligation) to fight for the right to be treated justly and with the same humanity that's afforded the rest of the populace.

[Tremere]

dragonflight288 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
So you will let doom entire world because you feel that you are morally right?
Might makes right thats how that work in our world and in da world.Mages proven to be dangerous for entire world more than once and it is foolish for peoples even trying control them as it was proven more than once... Simple morality aside mages are dangerous and that problem need to be solved morality doesn't matter.

And since you have called for the extermination of all mages in the past, regardless of age as a matter of safety, you in turn would doom the world from not one, not two, but three sources, all in pursuit of your vaunted "safety" and pragmatism. 

1. Darkspawn.

Mages are needed to create the joining. Alistair outright states that lyrium is used, and Duncan asserts that he needed Circle mages to prepare the Joining for the Warden in Origins. 

If there is no joining, then there are no Grey Wardens, and without Grey Wardens then you would have no one able to kill an Archdemon in the even of a Blight, and according to the Chantry we have two more to go through. 

2. Demons and the Fade

There is in-game proof, that although it is rare, it does happen that even non-mages are just as capable of sundering the veil and allowing demons into the world from the Fade. In Rivain, after the Llmarryn Accords, both the Qunari and the Chantry broke the agreement. The Qunari, or at least those born in Rivain who converted to the Qun violated the treaty by refusing to leave, and the Chantry violated it by responding to their refusal to leave with mass slaughter. An Exalted March was called, all done by Chantry forces within Rivain itself, and they marched on the Qunari in Northern Rivain and killed them with such brutality and in such numbers that the veil itself was torn and demons started coming through.

Then the Chantry denied the attack happened at all. Charming people there. 

I have never seen a non-mage/spirit mend a torn veil. But we have multiple examples of mages doing it in the games. 

3. The Qunari.

The lore is very clear. When the Qunari showed up, they arrived with technology all of Thedas simply couldn't match. They had cannons, explosives and various poisons (gaat'lock being one.) They swept through Thedas like a flood, only really having a problem with Tevinter and a united Thedas.

But even though it took all of Thedas to hold them off, it wasn't until the mages were allowed to fight that the Qunari started getting pushed back. In order to match the Qunari cannons, they used fireballs and lightning. The mages were able to tip the scales where previously there was only defeat or stalemate.

As to the argument about mages being so inherently more dangerous than a mundane that they couldn't be trusted, there is something that must also be taken into account.

No one argues that mages are more dangerous, but I have yet to see anyone discredit how a mages capacity to help others is also so much greater than a mundane's. No mundane healer on a battlefield can so effiently heal their soldiers and get them back onto the field like a mage healer could. Nor can they do so near as fast. 

And mages are quite useful in cleansing blighted land with their capacity to summon fire from nothing and burn away the corruption. And their ability to summon ice and cold from nothing also makes them more efficient than mundanes at stopping fires. Say a fire breaks out in the square, a single mage can stop the flames far faster than a whole group of mundanes working on bringing buckets from the river or the wells.

Nicely expressed!

Modifié par GabrielXL, 29 janvier 2014 - 01:30 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

GabrielXL wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
So you will let doom entire world because you feel that you are morally right?
Might makes right thats how that work in our world and in da world.Mages proven to be dangerous for entire world more than once and it is foolish for peoples even trying control them as it was proven more than once... Simple morality aside mages are dangerous and that problem need to be solved morality doesn't matter.

And since you have called for the extermination of all mages in the past, regardless of age as a matter of safety, you in turn would doom the world from not one, not two, but three sources, all in pursuit of your vaunted "safety" and pragmatism. 

1. Darkspawn.

Mages are needed to create the joining. Alistair outright states that lyrium is used, and Duncan asserts that he needed Circle mages to prepare the Joining for the Warden in Origins. 

If there is no joining, then there are no Grey Wardens, and without Grey Wardens then you would have no one able to kill an Archdemon in the even of a Blight, and according to the Chantry we have two more to go through. 

2. Demons and the Fade

There is in-game proof, that although it is rare, it does happen that even non-mages are just as capable of sundering the veil and allowing demons into the world from the Fade. In Rivain, after the Llmarryn Accords, both the Qunari and the Chantry broke the agreement. The Qunari, or at least those born in Rivain who converted to the Qun violated the treaty by refusing to leave, and the Chantry violated it by responding to their refusal to leave with mass slaughter. An Exalted March was called, all done by Chantry forces within Rivain itself, and they marched on the Qunari in Northern Rivain and killed them with such brutality and in such numbers that the veil itself was torn and demons started coming through.

Then the Chantry denied the attack happened at all. Charming people there. 

I have never seen a non-mage/spirit mend a torn veil. But we have multiple examples of mages doing it in the games. 

3. The Qunari.

The lore is very clear. When the Qunari showed up, they arrived with technology all of Thedas simply couldn't match. They had cannons, explosives and various poisons (gaat'lock being one.) They swept through Thedas like a flood, only really having a problem with Tevinter and a united Thedas.

But even though it took all of Thedas to hold them off, it wasn't until the mages were allowed to fight that the Qunari started getting pushed back. In order to match the Qunari cannons, they used fireballs and lightning. The mages were able to tip the scales where previously there was only defeat or stalemate.

As to the argument about mages being so inherently more dangerous than a mundane that they couldn't be trusted, there is something that must also be taken into account.

No one argues that mages are more dangerous, but I have yet to see anyone discredit how a mages capacity to help others is also so much greater than a mundane's. No mundane healer on a battlefield can so effiently heal their soldiers and get them back onto the field like a mage healer could. Nor can they do so near as fast. 

And mages are quite useful in cleansing blighted land with their capacity to summon fire from nothing and burn away the corruption. And their ability to summon ice and cold from nothing also makes them more efficient than mundanes at stopping fires. Say a fire breaks out in the square, a single mage can stop the flames far faster than a whole group of mundanes working on bringing buckets from the river or the wells.

Nicely expressed!

Indeed. Very nice post, dragonflight. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

dragonflight288 wrote...



And since you have called for the extermination of all mages in the past, regardless of age as a matter of safety, you in turn would doom the world from not one, not two, but three sources, all in pursuit of your vaunted "safety" and pragmatism. 

1. Darkspawn.

Mages are needed to create the joining. Alistair outright states that lyrium is used, and Duncan asserts that he needed Circle mages to prepare the Joining for the Warden in Origins. 

If there is no joining, then there are no Grey Wardens, and without Grey Wardens then you would have no one able to kill an Archdemon in the even of a Blight, and according to the Chantry we have two more to go through. 

2. Demons and the Fade

There is in-game proof, that although it is rare, it does happen that even non-mages are just as capable of sundering the veil and allowing demons into the world from the Fade. In Rivain, after the Llmarryn Accords, both the Qunari and the Chantry broke the agreement. The Qunari, or at least those born in Rivain who converted to the Qun violated the treaty by refusing to leave, and the Chantry violated it by responding to their refusal to leave with mass slaughter. An Exalted March was called, all done by Chantry forces within Rivain itself, and they marched on the Qunari in Northern Rivain and killed them with such brutality and in such numbers that the veil itself was torn and demons started coming through.

Then the Chantry denied the attack happened at all. Charming people there. 

I have never seen a non-mage/spirit mend a torn veil. But we have multiple examples of mages doing it in the games. 

3. The Qunari.

The lore is very clear. When the Qunari showed up, they arrived with technology all of Thedas simply couldn't match. They had cannons, explosives and various poisons (gaat'lock being one.) They swept through Thedas like a flood, only really having a problem with Tevinter and a united Thedas.

But even though it took all of Thedas to hold them off, it wasn't until the mages were allowed to fight that the Qunari started getting pushed back. In order to match the Qunari cannons, they used fireballs and lightning. The mages were able to tip the scales where previously there was only defeat or stalemate.

As to the argument about mages being so inherently more dangerous than a mundane that they couldn't be trusted, there is something that must also be taken into account.

No one argues that mages are more dangerous, but I have yet to see anyone discredit how a mages capacity to help others is also so much greater than a mundane's. No mundane healer on a battlefield can so effiently heal their soldiers and get them back onto the field like a mage healer could. Nor can they do so near as fast. 

And mages are quite useful in cleansing blighted land with their capacity to summon fire from nothing and burn away the corruption. And their ability to summon ice and cold from nothing also makes them more efficient than mundanes at stopping fires. Say a fire breaks out in the square, a single mage can stop the flames far faster than a whole group of mundanes working on bringing buckets from the river or the wells.

1.About legend that mages are needed for joining because we don't know weather is true but i will take your point ok.For that all we need if few mages and we can contain them properly and they will be able prepare joining problem solved...
2.Such cases are extremely rare and require massive slaughter and still it isn't enough to tear veil even qunari wars didn't managed did that.Magic is doing that extremely quickly as we can see in asunder when templars with mages , kirkwall , or brecilian forest. And another example is that mages can't fix veil at least not outside tevinter and not without being blood mages only peoples that managed fix veil were avernus and demon in kirkwall despite knowledge about veil mages couldn't do much about that.
3.And as i said when i don't like qunari they won't destroy world so there is hope for change qunari will
eventually as every culture and will be changed by another so we have still hope successful abomnation won't give you that he will destroy everyone .

Second i doubt very much that devs will make qunari invincible as it would mean end of dragon age series when qunari win so i can belive without mages and chantry technological development will quickly jump as dwarves already have explosives because they don't have magic.

Third i doubt that peoples who are unstable like mages would be useful abomnations would do as much harm us as qunari as we are shown mages aren't able live even in restrictet conditions with comforts that noble have without complaining and turning into abomnations ha good luck with that in war time where you have bad conditions to live and your friends and beloved die...     

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 29 janvier 2014 - 01:37 .

[Tremere]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...



And since you have called for the extermination of all mages in the past, regardless of age as a matter of safety, you in turn would doom the world from not one, not two, but three sources, all in pursuit of your vaunted "safety" and pragmatism. 

1. Darkspawn.

Mages are needed to create the joining. Alistair outright states that lyrium is used, and Duncan asserts that he needed Circle mages to prepare the Joining for the Warden in Origins. 

If there is no joining, then there are no Grey Wardens, and without Grey Wardens then you would have no one able to kill an Archdemon in the even of a Blight, and according to the Chantry we have two more to go through. 

2. Demons and the Fade

There is in-game proof, that although it is rare, it does happen that even non-mages are just as capable of sundering the veil and allowing demons into the world from the Fade. In Rivain, after the Llmarryn Accords, both the Qunari and the Chantry broke the agreement. The Qunari, or at least those born in Rivain who converted to the Qun violated the treaty by refusing to leave, and the Chantry violated it by responding to their refusal to leave with mass slaughter. An Exalted March was called, all done by Chantry forces within Rivain itself, and they marched on the Qunari in Northern Rivain and killed them with such brutality and in such numbers that the veil itself was torn and demons started coming through.

Then the Chantry denied the attack happened at all. Charming people there. 

I have never seen a non-mage/spirit mend a torn veil. But we have multiple examples of mages doing it in the games. 

3. The Qunari.

The lore is very clear. When the Qunari showed up, they arrived with technology all of Thedas simply couldn't match. They had cannons, explosives and various poisons (gaat'lock being one.) They swept through Thedas like a flood, only really having a problem with Tevinter and a united Thedas.

But even though it took all of Thedas to hold them off, it wasn't until the mages were allowed to fight that the Qunari started getting pushed back. In order to match the Qunari cannons, they used fireballs and lightning. The mages were able to tip the scales where previously there was only defeat or stalemate.

As to the argument about mages being so inherently more dangerous than a mundane that they couldn't be trusted, there is something that must also be taken into account.

No one argues that mages are more dangerous, but I have yet to see anyone discredit how a mages capacity to help others is also so much greater than a mundane's. No mundane healer on a battlefield can so effiently heal their soldiers and get them back onto the field like a mage healer could. Nor can they do so near as fast. 

And mages are quite useful in cleansing blighted land with their capacity to summon fire from nothing and burn away the corruption. And their ability to summon ice and cold from nothing also makes them more efficient than mundanes at stopping fires. Say a fire breaks out in the square, a single mage can stop the flames far faster than a whole group of mundanes working on bringing buckets from the river or the wells.

1.About legend that mages are needed for joining because we don't know weather is true but i will take your point ok.For that all we need if few mages and we can contain them properly and they will be able prepare joining problem solved...
2.Such cases are extremely rare and require massive slaughter and still it isn't enough to tear veil even qunari wars didn't managed did that.Magic is doing that extremely quickly as we can see in asunder when templars with mages , kirkwall , or brecilian forest. And another example is that mages can't fix veil at least not outside tevinter and not without being blood mages only peoples that managed fix veil were avernus and demon in kirkwall despite knowledge about veil mages couldn't do much about that.
3.And as i said when i don't like qunari they won't destroy world so there is hope for change qunari will
eventually as every culture and will be changed by another so we have still hope successful abomnation won't give you that he will destroy everyone .

Second i doubt very much that devs will make qunari invincible as it would mean end of dragon age series when qunari win so i can belive without mages and chantry technological development will quickly jump as dwarves already have explosives because they don't have magic.

Third i doubt that peoples who are unstable like mages would be useful abomnations would do as much harm us as qunari as we are shown mages aren't able live even in restrictet life style with comforts that noble have without complaining and turning into abomnations ha good luck with that in war time where you have bad conditions to live and your friends and beloved die...     

*shaking my head* Maker help us all.

[Hellion Rex]

GabrielXL wrote...
Your first sentence gives the impression that you've either ignored much of the dialogue in the games or you're just trolling for a reaction. In the DA game universe (thus far), the consensus is that mages are dangerous and thus malevolent by nature. To quote Cullen in DA2... "Mages cannot be our friends... etc, etc." The general populace fears them because they could "...influence the minds of nobles, grand clerics...". And who gets to decide all of this? Those who have no idea of what it is to be a mage. Their impressions are guided by a history that they aren't even certain of and largely ignore the musing of the Prophet they claim to revere who said, "Magic is to serve man and never to rule over him". How can they claim to know either way when a child (or any person with the proclivity) is "by default" thrown into a quasi-prison and treated as a pariah? Add to all of this, the hypocrisy of feeling fully entitled to rely on magic when it serves their needs as they've done on more than one occasion.

Ok, MisterJB does not troll. He is quite serious, and I guarantee you he's played as much as any of us here. And ironically, you misquoted Cullen.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

No one claims that there is any inherent malice in the simple existence of mages. We acknowledge the fact that your average mage is much more dangerous than your average normal person; and before you mention it, the reason I use the term "normal person" to refer to those bereft of magic is in order to avoid to have the rest of the world be defined by mages and in comparison to mages which is what the terms "mundane" or "non-mage" do; and that, logically, the restrictions placed upon them must be more severe than those placed upon others because, in a society, everyone's freedoms are restricted so that we may co-exist. This occurs automatically at birth, not because we have given evidence of being malicious, but because we are inherently dangerous by nature.
Since mages are more dangerous than the rest of the population, then it is only logical that the restrictions placed must be stricter in order to account for and reflect this increased danger.

If mages are too self-centered to acknowledge this, then normal people have the right, if not obligation to ensure their freedom and security by enforcing these restrictions upon the mages.

Meredith, is that you?

[Veruin]

GabrielXL wrote...
Your first sentence gives the impression that you've either ignored much of the dialogue in the games or you're just trolling for a reaction.

While your entire post only has you seeing what you want to see.

In the DA game universe (thus far), the consensus is that mages are dangerous and thus malevolent by nature.

We actually don't know what the general concensus is.  The few times we do, it's because some mage screwed up and gave the people a reason.

To quote Cullen in DA2... "Mages cannot be our friends... etc, etc." The general populace fears them because they could "...influence the minds of nobles, grand clerics...". And who gets to decide all of this?

I hope this Cullen is some other Cullen than the one who got tortured by blood mages and was basically forced to watch his friends die, I think that Cullen might just be a wee-bit biased.

Those who have no idea of what it is to be a mage.

So, what exactly does it entail to be a mage? 

Their impressions are guided by a history that they aren't even certain of and largely ignore the musing of the Prophet they claim to revere who said, "Magic is to serve man and never to rule over him". How can they claim to know either way when a child (or any person with the proclivity) is "by default" thrown into a quasi-prison and treated as a pariah? Add to all of this, the hypocrisy of feeling fully entitled to rely on magic when it serves their needs as they've done on more than one occasion.

Isn't utilizing magic to SERVE them doing as their "prophet" says?  Last I checked, the circles are there because the have the potential to wreck a vast more amount of damage than some emo townboy, and not because "magic is teh evulz".

If the same criteria was applied to the general populace as it is to mages, why not just round up all the poor as well? Since they have neither the means nor the ambition to free themselves from their lives as they are, they will most certainly resort to crime and possibly murder. Does that seem over the top? How so? It could (and does) happen.You might consider my analogy a gross exagerration and you'd be right, but that's my point.

I consider your example idiotic simply because a normal person cannot do near what a mage can do.  Can a normal person steal?  Yes.  Can that same normal person be hunted down by a couple of guards and arrested?  Also a yes.  Can a murderer be hunted down and slain or publicly hung?  Yes.

You seem to think that "They do bad things too! see!?  is justifcation.

While if it's a mage on the run, all he has to do is think it and his pursuers are now asleep, or worse.

 Mages are persecuted for what they are, not who they are. Self-centered, self-absorbed, noble, commoner, irreverant, reverant, bold or meek... They are all perceived as dangerous and treated as such.

Because... they are?  Or do you think most of them have hearts of pure gold, just want to live a good live and/or not subject to temper tantrums?  Them being human with emotions IS the reason they are kept away.  Any emotional flare up be in guilt, anger, or sorrow, has terrible effect.  The mages in training in the mage origin show that magic does have ties to ones emotions.

If mundanes are too self-absorbed to realize (or even acknowledge) the injustice of this, then mages have a right (if not an obligation) to fight for the right to be treated justly and with the same humanity that's afforded the rest of the populace.

The worst thing about the circles is that the Templars as an order have gotten a corrupt.  A shakedown of that and they're better off than everyone else.

Modifié par Veruin, 29 janvier 2014 - 02:06 .

[Thomas Andresen]

I hope this Cullen is some other Cullen than the one who got tortured by blood mages and was basically forced to watch his friends die, I think that Cullen might just be a wee-bit biased.

Traumatized, more like. Still, I get the impression many people on these forums ignore that part.

If you play the mage origin, however, he seems to have a significantly more fair viewpoint. The contrast before and after the incident in the Circle in Ferelden is like day and night. And that's just in the same game. "To think I once pitied you."

and before you mention it, the reason I use the term "normal person" to refer to those bereft of magic is in order to avoid to have the rest of the world be defined by mages and in comparison to mages which is what the terms "mundane" or "non-mage" do

If there was ever a thing I'd agree with JB about, it'd be this. Wholeheartedly.

"Mundane." Pfah.

Modifié par Thomas Andresen, 29 janvier 2014 - 01:59 .

[dragonflight288]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

GabrielXL wrote...

Nicely expressed!

Indeed. Very nice post, dragonflight. 

Thanks guys. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

GabrielXL wrote...



*shaking my head* Maker help us all.

Problem?
If i that wasn't truth please point where?

As i pointed there is no real problem with making grey wardens few mages are sufficient for that. 

Fixing veil isn't problem always we can hire tevinter blood mage as we won't be able change situation there for now. 

And qunari aren't problem with proper technology we don't even know when they will attack beyond speculations first theodasians outnumber them all they need is technology and as i said we already have explosives.

[Tremere]

Veruin wrote...

GabrielXL wrote...
Your first sentence gives the impression that you've either ignored much of the dialogue in the games or you're just trolling for a reaction.

While your entire post only has you seeing what you want to see.

Pot meet kettle. I won't even bother to elaborate on the rest of your post.

[Hellion Rex]

GabrielXL wrote...

Veruin wrote...

GabrielXL wrote...
Your first sentence gives the impression that you've either ignored much of the dialogue in the games or you're just trolling for a reaction.

While your entire post only has you seeing what you want to see.

Pot meet kettle. I won't even bother to elaborate on the rest of your post.

Really now? A tad petty.

[Tremere]

eluvianix wrote...

GabrielXL wrote...

Veruin wrote...

GabrielXL wrote...
Your first sentence gives the impression that you've either ignored much of the dialogue in the games or you're just trolling for a reaction.

While your entire post only has you seeing what you want to see.

Pot meet kettle. I won't even bother to elaborate on the rest of your post.

Really now? A tad petty.

Come on... Really?

There are some who don't mind taking tidbits out of comments to create a dialogue that is oftentimes out of context and gives a false impression. I'm not one of those people. Likewise, I have no need to be right. I'm simply voicing an opinion. That I disagree with someone elses opinion is my prerogative. That I get called out on it by someone else, is theirs. But again... I have no desire to nitpick a comment just to make a point. Mine was expressed whether someone agrees with it or not. If that means to someone else that I'm seeing what I want to see, so be it. If you think my opinion flawed, present me with facts to refute my claims and I'll embrace them. But if your only discourse is to present an opinion in response to mine, I have a right to reject that opinion based on what "I think" I know. In absence of a compelling argument to the contrary, my opinion stands as it is. Take it however you want.

Modifié par GabrielXL, 29 janvier 2014 - 09:57 .

[dragonflight288]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...



And since you have called for the extermination of all mages in the past, regardless of age as a matter of safety, you in turn would doom the world from not one, not two, but three sources, all in pursuit of your vaunted "safety" and pragmatism. 

1. Darkspawn.

Mages are needed to create the joining. Alistair outright states that lyrium is used, and Duncan asserts that he needed Circle mages to prepare the Joining for the Warden in Origins. 

If there is no joining, then there are no Grey Wardens, and without Grey Wardens then you would have no one able to kill an Archdemon in the even of a Blight, and according to the Chantry we have two more to go through. 

2. Demons and the Fade

There is in-game proof, that although it is rare, it does happen that even non-mages are just as capable of sundering the veil and allowing demons into the world from the Fade. In Rivain, after the Llmarryn Accords, both the Qunari and the Chantry broke the agreement. The Qunari, or at least those born in Rivain who converted to the Qun violated the treaty by refusing to leave, and the Chantry violated it by responding to their refusal to leave with mass slaughter. An Exalted March was called, all done by Chantry forces within Rivain itself, and they marched on the Qunari in Northern Rivain and killed them with such brutality and in such numbers that the veil itself was torn and demons started coming through.

Then the Chantry denied the attack happened at all. Charming people there. 

I have never seen a non-mage/spirit mend a torn veil. But we have multiple examples of mages doing it in the games. 

3. The Qunari.

The lore is very clear. When the Qunari showed up, they arrived with technology all of Thedas simply couldn't match. They had cannons, explosives and various poisons (gaat'lock being one.) They swept through Thedas like a flood, only really having a problem with Tevinter and a united Thedas.

But even though it took all of Thedas to hold them off, it wasn't until the mages were allowed to fight that the Qunari started getting pushed back. In order to match the Qunari cannons, they used fireballs and lightning. The mages were able to tip the scales where previously there was only defeat or stalemate.

As to the argument about mages being so inherently more dangerous than a mundane that they couldn't be trusted, there is something that must also be taken into account.

No one argues that mages are more dangerous, but I have yet to see anyone discredit how a mages capacity to help others is also so much greater than a mundane's. No mundane healer on a battlefield can so effiently heal their soldiers and get them back onto the field like a mage healer could. Nor can they do so near as fast. 

And mages are quite useful in cleansing blighted land with their capacity to summon fire from nothing and burn away the corruption. And their ability to summon ice and cold from nothing also makes them more efficient than mundanes at stopping fires. Say a fire breaks out in the square, a single mage can stop the flames far faster than a whole group of mundanes working on bringing buckets from the river or the wells.

1.About legend that mages are needed for joining because we don't know weather is true but i will take your point ok.For that all we need if few mages and we can contain them properly and they will be able prepare joining problem solved...

No, the problem will NOT be solved, and here's why. 

One, the Grey Wardens recruit only the very best and most healthy, and even then that is not a guarantee of surviving the joining in the first place. If you killed all the mages except for a select few, and had them join the Wardens, there is no guarantee they would even survive the joining. Say you killed 99% percent of the mages and gave the last 1% to the Wardens, and that would be like, 5-7 mages, and those mages all died in the Joining, or most die in the joining and others die fighting darkspawn, guess what, you have no mages left. 

Add in the training needed to become a Warden. If being a mage was the only qualifier, Jowan or Keili would be Warden material just by virtue of existing. I wouldn't consider either of them Warden material at all. Jowan due to incompetence and Keili due to her mental state. 

If you kill most of the mages, these potential Grey Warden recruits would not be getting the necessary training. There wouldn't be any experienced mages. And again, you cannot offer any form of guarantee whatsoever that these mages would even qualify to be in the Wardens, whether in skill, abillity, or mental capacity. 

No, you need a wider pool of mages, and you need trained mages JUST for the Grey Wardens to recruit and combat the darkspawn effectively. And that's why your plan is doomed to fail.

And it isn't a legend or myth. Duncan confirms in Origins that the Circle mages are preparing the Joining, and Alistair says he knows for a fact that lyrium is involved, so that alone proves the need for a mage, or at least a tranquil, just to handle that ingredient alone. 

2.Such cases are extremely rare and require massive slaughter and still it isn't enough to tear veil even qunari wars didn't managed did that.Magic is doing that extremely quickly as we can see in asunder when templars with mages , kirkwall , or brecilian forest. And another example is that mages can't fix veil at least not outside tevinter and not without being blood mages only peoples that managed fix veil were avernus and demon in kirkwall despite knowledge about veil mages couldn't do much about that.

And you have no solution whatsoever for when it does happen. I did say it was rare for non-mages to do it, and your response is essentially "it doesn't happen often."

You have no plan for when it does happen, because without mages, you have no solution that would work.

And are you making an argument for the validity of blood mages? If so then thank you. If blood mages are the only ones capable of closing torn veils, then that alone is an argument in favor of not only mages existing but also using blood magic. 

3.And as i said when i don't like qunari they won't destroy world so there is hope for change qunari will
eventually as every culture and will be changed by another so we have still hope successful abomnation won't give you that he will destroy everyone .

Second i doubt very much that devs will make qunari invincible as it would mean end of dragon age series when qunari win so i can belive without mages and chantry technological development will quickly jump as dwarves already have explosives because they don't have magic.

Third i doubt that peoples who are unstable like mages would be useful abomnations would do as much harm us as qunari as we are shown mages aren't able live even in restrictet conditions with comforts that noble have without complaining and turning into abomnations ha good luck with that in war time where you have bad conditions to live and your friends and beloved die...     

So the Qunari won't destroy the world, simply brainwash everyone, destroy the minds of those who resist conversion using Qamak, break up whole families and send them to reedcuation facilities and essentially destroy the very concept of free will and choice.

But it's not the end of the world so that's a good thing right? <_<


On a side note, something worth mentioning. 

At PAX we see non-mages Red Templars using some form of magic to attack the village, and that giant red behemoth. Hmmm.....

https://encrypted-tb...9fKCHXh11ClZlnQ

Seem to be equally as bad without the magic.

[Tremere]

dragonflight288 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...



And since you have called for the extermination of all mages in the past, regardless of age as a matter of safety, you in turn would doom the world from not one, not two, but three sources, all in pursuit of your vaunted "safety" and pragmatism. 

1. Darkspawn.

Mages are needed to create the joining. Alistair outright states that lyrium is used, and Duncan asserts that he needed Circle mages to prepare the Joining for the Warden in Origins. 

If there is no joining, then there are no Grey Wardens, and without Grey Wardens then you would have no one able to kill an Archdemon in the even of a Blight, and according to the Chantry we have two more to go through. 

2. Demons and the Fade

There is in-game proof, that although it is rare, it does happen that even non-mages are just as capable of sundering the veil and allowing demons into the world from the Fade. In Rivain, after the Llmarryn Accords, both the Qunari and the Chantry broke the agreement. The Qunari, or at least those born in Rivain who converted to the Qun violated the treaty by refusing to leave, and the Chantry violated it by responding to their refusal to leave with mass slaughter. An Exalted March was called, all done by Chantry forces within Rivain itself, and they marched on the Qunari in Northern Rivain and killed them with such brutality and in such numbers that the veil itself was torn and demons started coming through.

Then the Chantry denied the attack happened at all. Charming people there. 

I have never seen a non-mage/spirit mend a torn veil. But we have multiple examples of mages doing it in the games. 

3. The Qunari.

The lore is very clear. When the Qunari showed up, they arrived with technology all of Thedas simply couldn't match. They had cannons, explosives and various poisons (gaat'lock being one.) They swept through Thedas like a flood, only really having a problem with Tevinter and a united Thedas.

But even though it took all of Thedas to hold them off, it wasn't until the mages were allowed to fight that the Qunari started getting pushed back. In order to match the Qunari cannons, they used fireballs and lightning. The mages were able to tip the scales where previously there was only defeat or stalemate.

As to the argument about mages being so inherently more dangerous than a mundane that they couldn't be trusted, there is something that must also be taken into account.

No one argues that mages are more dangerous, but I have yet to see anyone discredit how a mages capacity to help others is also so much greater than a mundane's. No mundane healer on a battlefield can so effiently heal their soldiers and get them back onto the field like a mage healer could. Nor can they do so near as fast. 

And mages are quite useful in cleansing blighted land with their capacity to summon fire from nothing and burn away the corruption. And their ability to summon ice and cold from nothing also makes them more efficient than mundanes at stopping fires. Say a fire breaks out in the square, a single mage can stop the flames far faster than a whole group of mundanes working on bringing buckets from the river or the wells.

1.About legend that mages are needed for joining because we don't know weather is true but i will take your point ok.For that all we need if few mages and we can contain them properly and they will be able prepare joining problem solved...

No, the problem will NOT be solved, and here's why. 

One, the Grey Wardens recruit only the very best and most healthy, and even then that is not a guarantee of surviving the joining in the first place. If you killed all the mages except for a select few, and had them join the Wardens, there is no guarantee they would even survive the joining. Say you killed 99% percent of the mages and gave the last 1% to the Wardens, and that would be like, 5-7 mages, and those mages all died in the Joining, or most die in the joining and others die fighting darkspawn, guess what, you have no mages left. 

Add in the training needed to become a Warden. If being a mage was the only qualifier, Jowan or Keili would be Warden material just by virtue of existing. I wouldn't consider either of them Warden material at all. Jowan due to incompetence and Keili due to her mental state. 

If you kill most of the mages, these potential Grey Warden recruits would not be getting the necessary training. There wouldn't be any experienced mages. And again, you cannot offer any form of guarantee whatsoever that these mages would even qualify to be in the Wardens, whether in skill, abillity, or mental capacity. 

No, you need a wider pool of mages, and you need trained mages JUST for the Grey Wardens to recruit and combat the darkspawn effectively. And that's why your plan is doomed to fail.

And it isn't a legend or myth. Duncan confirms in Origins that the Circle mages are preparing the Joining, and Alistair says he knows for a fact that lyrium is involved, so that alone proves the need for a mage, or at least a tranquil, just to handle that ingredient alone. 

2.Such cases are extremely rare and require massive slaughter and still it isn't enough to tear veil even qunari wars didn't managed did that.Magic is doing that extremely quickly as we can see in asunder when templars with mages , kirkwall , or brecilian forest. And another example is that mages can't fix veil at least not outside tevinter and not without being blood mages only peoples that managed fix veil were avernus and demon in kirkwall despite knowledge about veil mages couldn't do much about that.

And you have no solution whatsoever for when it does happen. I did say it was rare for non-mages to do it, and your response is essentially "it doesn't happen often."

You have no plan for when it does happen, because without mages, you have no solution that would work.

And are you making an argument for the validity of blood mages? If so then thank you. If blood mages are the only ones capable of closing torn veils, then that alone is an argument in favor of not only mages existing but also using blood magic. 

3.And as i said when i don't like qunari they won't destroy world so there is hope for change qunari will
eventually as every culture and will be changed by another so we have still hope successful abomnation won't give you that he will destroy everyone .

Second i doubt very much that devs will make qunari invincible as it would mean end of dragon age series when qunari win so i can belive without mages and chantry technological development will quickly jump as dwarves already have explosives because they don't have magic.

Third i doubt that peoples who are unstable like mages would be useful abomnations would do as much harm us as qunari as we are shown mages aren't able live even in restrictet conditions with comforts that noble have without complaining and turning into abomnations ha good luck with that in war time where you have bad conditions to live and your friends and beloved die...     

So the Qunari won't destroy the world, simply brainwash everyone, destroy the minds of those who resist conversion using Qamak, break up whole families and send them to reedcuation facilities and essentially destroy the very concept of free will and choice.

But it's not the end of the world so that's a good thing right? <_<


On a side note, something worth mentioning. 

At PAX we see non-mages Red Templars using some form of magic to attack the village, and that giant red behemoth. Hmmm.....

https://encrypted-tb...9fKCHXh11ClZlnQ

Seem to be equally as bad without the magic.

Thank you! You say these things so I don't have to. *laughs*

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...
At PAX we see non-mages Red Templars using some form of magic to attack the village, and that giant red behemoth. Hmmm.....

https://encrypted-tb...9fKCHXh11ClZlnQ
Seem to be equally as bad without the magic.

Well, technically, normal templars use magical abilities as well, through lyrium. The difference is that a vanilla templar's magic doesn't seem to be nearly as offense oriented as what we have seen from red lyrium induced powers.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
At PAX we see non-mages Red Templars using some form of magic to attack the village, and that giant red behemoth. Hmmm.....

https://encrypted-tb...9fKCHXh11ClZlnQ
Seem to be equally as bad without the magic.

Well, technically, normal templars use magical abilities as well, through lyrium. The difference is that a vanilla templar's magic doesn't seem to be nearly as offense oriented as what we have seen from red lyrium induced powers.

My point was that the very dangers he seems to be warning against are just as possible without mages. 

[Tremere]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
At PAX we see non-mages Red Templars using some form of magic to attack the village, and that giant red behemoth. Hmmm.....

https://encrypted-tb...9fKCHXh11ClZlnQ
Seem to be equally as bad without the magic.

Well, technically, normal templars use magical abilities as well, through lyrium. The difference is that a vanilla templar's magic doesn't seem to be nearly as offense oriented as what we have seen from red lyrium induced powers.

My point was that the very dangers he seems to be warning against are just as possible without mages. 

This is something I've been trying to say all along.

[dragonflight288]

GabrielXL wrote...
Thank you! You say these things so I don't have to. *laughs*

That's what I'm here for. That and cracking witty one-liners and occassionally annoying pro-templars and anti-elves.

Now that the warm fuzzy part of the evening is over with, we can get back to our malevolent blood magic rituals on templars....

wait, it isn't friday yet. 

[Tremere]

dragonflight288 wrote...

GabrielXL wrote...
Thank you! You say these things so I don't have to. *laughs*

That's what I'm here for. That and cracking witty one-liners and occassionally annoying pro-templars and anti-elves.

Now that the warm fuzzy part of the evening is over with, we can get back to our malevolent blood magic rituals on templars....

wait, it isn't friday yet. 

*laughs*

[TheKomandorShepard]

dragonflight288 wrote...

chop

In first discussion you failed my friend because who said that mage who prepares joining must be grey warden there is no need for them passing ritual they must just know formula their role is done perhaps when times crisis like with veil they would fix it or do something smiliar their role is done.

Another thing that not only mages can work with lyrium any person can as long lyrium isn't raw then only peoples that can work with are dwarves or tranquils as they are immune for mages it is especially deadly so all you may need is capable alchemist.

About second matter
As i said i have solution one that i gave you above about "grey warden" mages solving that or simple hiring tevinter blood mage because for now they are out of my reach as well they can't do much about what i m doing outside their country.About blood magic to be honest i don't care i don't see that as evil like chantry and don't have problem with that my only problem with mages is that they are too dangerous for me. 

in third matter to be honest our world and well pretty much every society brainwash their members of society will simple such matters as what is good or not or what is inappropriate and what isn't as example i can give you some medieval standarts that i doubt you would agree with them.And i doubt they could kill free will and peoples who escaped from them are good example they will eventually fall.

End of the world is ultimate qunari victory not.

About behemonts and pride demon i can't rly tell here i don't know what first can do i didn't saw their power so as long i don't see doing smiliar destruction as abomnation or simple killing pride demon i can't tell.But i have to mention that we don't know what red lyrium is but if we know from where templars take it we can destroy that problem solved and with red templars do same what with mages they are dangerous and insane and thats all i care.   

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 29 janvier 2014 - 03:24 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

So let me get it straight... because we disagree with an ideology, its hypothetical victories in its objectives are tantamount to "dooming the world"?

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So let me get it straight... because we disagree with an ideology, its hypothetical victories in its objectives are tantamount to "dooming the world"?

Essentially Kommander is saying that working with mages will doom the world with all the danger mages will pose, and since he called for the complete extermination of all mages as a matter of safety in the past, I called out the flaws of that plan and explained why that plan would ultimately doom the world.

[Nightdragon8]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...



And since you have called for the extermination of all mages in the past, regardless of age as a matter of safety, you in turn would doom the world from not one, not two, but three sources, all in pursuit of your vaunted "safety" and pragmatism. 

1. Darkspawn.

Mages are needed to create the joining. Alistair outright states that lyrium is used, and Duncan asserts that he needed Circle mages to prepare the Joining for the Warden in Origins. 

If there is no joining, then there are no Grey Wardens, and without Grey Wardens then you would have no one able to kill an Archdemon in the even of a Blight, and according to the Chantry we have two more to go through. 

2. Demons and the Fade

There is in-game proof, that although it is rare, it does happen that even non-mages are just as capable of sundering the veil and allowing demons into the world from the Fade. In Rivain, after the Llmarryn Accords, both the Qunari and the Chantry broke the agreement. The Qunari, or at least those born in Rivain who converted to the Qun violated the treaty by refusing to leave, and the Chantry violated it by responding to their refusal to leave with mass slaughter. An Exalted March was called, all done by Chantry forces within Rivain itself, and they marched on the Qunari in Northern Rivain and killed them with such brutality and in such numbers that the veil itself was torn and demons started coming through.

Then the Chantry denied the attack happened at all. Charming people there. 

I have never seen a non-mage/spirit mend a torn veil. But we have multiple examples of mages doing it in the games. 

3. The Qunari.

The lore is very clear. When the Qunari showed up, they arrived with technology all of Thedas simply couldn't match. They had cannons, explosives and various poisons (gaat'lock being one.) They swept through Thedas like a flood, only really having a problem with Tevinter and a united Thedas.

But even though it took all of Thedas to hold them off, it wasn't until the mages were allowed to fight that the Qunari started getting pushed back. In order to match the Qunari cannons, they used fireballs and lightning. The mages were able to tip the scales where previously there was only defeat or stalemate.

As to the argument about mages being so inherently more dangerous than a mundane that they couldn't be trusted, there is something that must also be taken into account.

No one argues that mages are more dangerous, but I have yet to see anyone discredit how a mages capacity to help others is also so much greater than a mundane's. No mundane healer on a battlefield can so effiently heal their soldiers and get them back onto the field like a mage healer could. Nor can they do so near as fast. 

And mages are quite useful in cleansing blighted land with their capacity to summon fire from nothing and burn away the corruption. And their ability to summon ice and cold from nothing also makes them more efficient than mundanes at stopping fires. Say a fire breaks out in the square, a single mage can stop the flames far faster than a whole group of mundanes working on bringing buckets from the river or the wells.

1.About legend that mages are needed for joining because we don't know weather is true but i will take your point ok.For that all we need if few mages and we can contain them properly and they will be able prepare joining problem solved...
2.Such cases are extremely rare and require massive slaughter and still it isn't enough to tear veil even qunari wars didn't managed did that.Magic is doing that extremely quickly as we can see in asunder when templars with mages , kirkwall , or brecilian forest. And another example is that mages can't fix veil at least not outside tevinter and not without being blood mages only peoples that managed fix veil were avernus and demon in kirkwall despite knowledge about veil mages couldn't do much about that.
3.And as i said when i don't like qunari they won't destroy world so there is hope for change qunari will
eventually as every culture and will be changed by another so we have still hope successful abomnation won't give you that he will destroy everyone .

Second i doubt very much that devs will make qunari invincible as it would mean end of dragon age series when qunari win so i can belive without mages and chantry technological development will quickly jump as dwarves already have explosives because they don't have magic.

Third i doubt that peoples who are unstable like mages would be useful abomnations would do as much harm us as qunari as we are shown mages aren't able live even in restrictet conditions with comforts that noble have without complaining and turning into abomnations ha good luck with that in war time where you have bad conditions to live and your friends and beloved die...     

going to nitpick but "Dwarven explosives" use lyrim which is expensive, While with the Qunai they use pretty much gunpowder. So your idea of "tech will hasten" may not happen fast enough to make a difference.