956 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So let me get it straight... because we disagree with an ideology, its hypothetical victories in its objectives are tantamount to "dooming the world"?

Essentially Kommander is saying that working with mages will doom the world with all the danger mages will pose, and since he called for the complete extermination of all mages as a matter of safety in the past, I called out the flaws of that plan and explained why that plan would ultimately doom the world.

I was more refering to you claiming that Qunari victory would result in the "doom of the world".

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So let me get it straight... because we disagree with an ideology, its hypothetical victories in its objectives are tantamount to "dooming the world"?

Essentially Kommander is saying that working with mages will doom the world with all the danger mages will pose, and since he called for the complete extermination of all mages as a matter of safety in the past, I called out the flaws of that plan and explained why that plan would ultimately doom the world.

I was more refering to you claiming that Qunari victory would result in the "doom of the world".

Okay, so what I said was a bit of an exaggeration, but mages are the only thing Thedas has right not to offset their technology so that cannot be discounted. 

[dragonflight288]

Nightdragon8 wrote...
going to nitpick but "Dwarven explosives" use lyrim which is expensive, While with the Qunai they use pretty much gunpowder. So your idea of "tech will hasten" may not happen fast enough to make a difference.

I'm also going to nitpick.

The dwarves mine the lyrium, so they actually have as much as they want. But they don't have explosives to the level the qunari do.

In Awakening, Dworkin was working on perfecting a dwarven solution to have the same level of power as the Qunari do, and ends up getting hunted by the Qunari so they can destroy him and his explosives formula.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Nightdragon8 wrote...



going to nitpick but "Dwarven explosives" use lyrim which is expensive, While with the Qunai they use pretty much gunpowder. So your idea of "tech will hasten" may not happen fast enough to make a difference.

First solid argument thank you
I know but pretty much we don't know when qunari will attack either they may attack now or not who knows but pretty much on long term humans will be better with secure technology than unstable magic...
Magic isn't good for thedas at least very much advantages of it are small comparing to problems that magic caused and it will cause.

dragonflight288 wrote...

I'm also going to nitpick.

The
dwarves mine the lyrium, so they actually have as much as they want.
But they don't have explosives to the level the qunari do.

In
Awakening, Dworkin was working on perfecting a dwarven solution to have
the same level of power as the Qunari do, and ends up getting hunted by
the Qunari so they can destroy him and his explosives formula.

I don't see that as problem if you spread that over entire thedas problems are qunari agents still angry becuase hawke stupidity...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 29 janvier 2014 - 04:27 .

[KaiserShep]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
So you will let doom entire world because you feel that you are morally right?{smilie}
Might makes right thats how that work in our world and in da world.Mages proven to be dangerous for entire world more than once and it is foolish for peoples even trying control them as it was proven more than once... Simple morality aside mages are dangerous and that problem need to be solved morality doesn't matter.

I take it by "morality aside" and "might makes right" you mean some sort of anti-mage death squad. If so, that idea would be an utter failure in a short period of time. There's no way to systematically exterminate people without serious lasting consequences. Sympathizers of all sorts would rally against them, because in the end, these are still people who have some kind of connection in society, rather than living in some kind of magical vacuum. The great irony is that facilitation of this plan would require imprisoning and/or executing dissenters and people who try to hide them, of which there would be many, as no amount of propaganda can turn an entire civilization against their own friends and family. This would not make society any better. Instead of fearing mages, people will simply fear death squads. I'm a big fan of irony.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 29 janvier 2014 - 07:36 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Okay, so what I said was a bit of an exaggeration, but mages are the only thing Thedas has right not to offset their technology so that cannot be discounted.

And numbers.
The thedosians stalemated the quanri without mages, don't forget that.


****

As far as the tranqul solution goes, there are good arguments for it.
I wouldn't go for it, but I cannot deny that it might be the "best" solution (given specific priorities).

[TheKomandorShepard]

KaiserShep wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
So you will let doom entire world because you feel that you are morally right?{smilie}
Might makes right thats how that work in our world and in da world.Mages proven to be dangerous for entire world more than once and it is foolish for peoples even trying control them as it was proven more than once... Simple morality aside mages are dangerous and that problem need to be solved morality doesn't matter.

I take it by "morality aside" and "might makes right" you mean some sort of anti-mage death squad. If so, that idea would be an utter failure in a short period of time. There's no way to systematically exterminate people without serious lasting consequences. Sympathizers of all sorts would rally against them, because in the end, these are still people who have some kind of connection in society, rather than living in some kind of magical vacuum. The great irony is that facilitation of this plan would require imprisoning and/or executing dissenters and people who try to hide them, of which there would be many, as no amount of propaganda can turn an entire civilization against their own friends and family. This would not make society any better. Instead of fearing mages, people will simply fear death squads. I'm a big fan of irony.

Do i even have mention elves peoples don't mind genocide against elves it happens all the time hell peoples crowds even do that themselves and evles are much closer to society than mages are :whistle:and well with them skip part about turning about abomnations.I m not alone in universe with my statements just hear gossiping peoples in ferelden and this is one of the best countries in thedas when it comes about treatment of peoples.

No do i have to mention what peoples do with some mages hell many don't need their children to be mages to abuse them and many will hate their children because they are mages.I realize some peoples won't do that so there i want uphold some laws punishing such peoples and rewarding peoples who point hiding mage.Criminals always fear the law , law-abiding citizens don't have reason to fear sorry i just had to use it.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 29 janvier 2014 - 08:59 .

[MisterJB]

GabrielXL wrote...
Your first sentence gives the impression that you've either ignored much of the dialogue in the games or you're just trolling for a reaction.

I was actually referring to the members of these forums but what I said can be applied to the game world as well.
 

In the DA game universe (thus far), the consensus is that mages are dangerous and thus malevolent by nature. To quote Cullen in DA2... "Mages cannot be our friends... etc, etc." The general populace fears them because they could "...influence the minds of nobles, grand clerics...".

Being dangerous is not inextricably connected to being malicious. If I say "A lion is too dangerous to be a pet." do you then assume that I believe a lion is malevolent despite the fact lions are incapable of moral judgments?
Magic is dangerous regardless of the moral character of a mage; it is hard to control and there is always the possibility of a demonic possession. Hence, just because someone might say mages are dangerous, that doesn't mean that person believes all mages are malicious.

Also, understanding that mages have a terrible potential to harm others doesn't, once again, means people believe that all mages are "evil". It's not about mages abusing their powers because they are mages and that makes them malevolent; it's about people abusing their inborn ability of magic because they are people and thus prone to harmful acts.
No one believes there is an inherent defect to mages that makes them more malevolent than normal people; people simply understand that the temptation of power is hard to resist and mages have a lot of it.

Ultimately, the consensus in Thedas is that mages are dangerous; more extremists members of the population go so as far to believe they are cursed. But, right off the top of my head, I can't recall a single person believe that all mages are evil simply because they are mages.

And who gets to decide all of this? Those who have no idea of what it is to be a mage. Their impressions are guided by a history that they aren't even certain of

 So, people are not certain that Abominations are possessed mages? People are not certain that Tevinter oppressed all the "ungifted"?

and largely ignore the musing of the Prophet they claim to revere who said, "Magic is to serve man and never to rule over him". How can they claim to know either way when a child (or any person with the proclivity) is "by default" thrown into a quasi-prison and treated as a pariah?

It's called a security measure.

Add to all of this, the hypocrisy of feeling fully entitled to rely on magic when it serves their needs as they've done on more than one occasion.

There is no hypocrisy. The Chantry has always said magic is useful and must be used to serve man. It's in the Chant.

If the same criteria was applied to the general populace as it is to mages, why not just round up all the poor as well? Since they have neither the means nor the ambition to free themselves from their lives as they are, they will most certainly resort to crime and possibly murder. Does that seem over the top? How so? It could (and does) happen. You might consider my analogy a gross exagerration and you'd be right, but that's my point. Mages are persecuted for what they are, not who they are. Self-centered, self-absorbed, noble, commoner, irreverant, reverant, bold or meek... They are all perceived as dangerous and treated as such.

That's because they are dangerous. Everyone is dangerous but some dangers are more containable than others.
A fully grown adult bum may be driven to crime but, at best, he'll just sharpen a spoon into a knife and only the most vulnerable of people would be in danger. A civilian watch would be all it took to end his crimes.
A 10 year old mage destroyed a town, killed its citizenry, turned them into Walking Dead and sent them to eat the flesh of their families. And this was a town protected by knights.

Both a 9mm and a nuclear bomb serve the same purpose if used; they kill. But the capabilities of destruction of both weapons are not on the same level and thus, there is no justification to treat them in the same manner.
Should we keep 9mm guns in fortified bunkers where they'll be watched 24/7 and it will take the approval of several members of the state before they are used? Should we sell nuclear bombs at convenience stores?

If mundanes are too self-absorbed to realize (or even acknowledge) the injustice of this, then mages have a right (if not an obligation) to fight for the right to be treated justly and with the same humanity that's afforded the rest of the populace.

They are treated justly. Both normal people and mages have restrictions placed upon their freedoms; that of mages are simply slightly more harsh because they are more dangerous. This is actually justice; this reflects reality.

Plus, mages live better lives than your average Thedosian. They are clothed, fed, educated, given a home, all free of charge. If they pass their Harrowing, they can't even be made Tranquil whereas a peasant can be hanged for stealing sacks of wheat to feed his starving family.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
At PAX we see non-mages Red Templars using some form of magic to attack the village, and that giant red behemoth. Hmmm.....

https://encrypted-tb...9fKCHXh11ClZlnQ

Seem to be equally as bad without the magic.

It's not without magic. Lyrium is a form of magic that everyone can use.
But whereas we can cut off access to lyrium to people who abuse it, we can't cut off access to magic if mages abuse it.
Well, we can but it requires a lobotomy.

[Navasha]

I think its some what disheartening given that the "tranquil" solution in DA2 was used as a device to show how extremely bad the Templars were getting in their zealous hatred of mages. I mean its pretty much a direct spinoff of the 'final' solution of 1930s Germany. Yet, people are actually trying to make the case for it. Unbelievable.

[superdeathdealer14]

I'm astonished at how this thread is still going, it reminds me of a dog with half its guts spilt on a road and its still going, slowly crawling, desperately trying to cling onto life.

Modifié par superdeathdealer14, 29 janvier 2014 - 01:25 .

[The Baconer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So let me get it straight... because we disagree with an ideology, its hypothetical victories in its objectives are tantamount to "dooming the world"?

Yes.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Baconer wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So let me get it straight... because we disagree with an ideology, its hypothetical victories in its objectives are tantamount to "dooming the world"?

Yes.

You have a wierd definition of "doom" then.

[Hellion Rex]

I don't think the submitting to the Qun is equal to "dooming the world." I don't agree with some of their methods, but I'd rather have a Qun world than a darkspawn infested one.

[Veruin]

eluvianix wrote...

I don't think the submitting to the Qun is equal to "dooming the world." I don't agree with some of their methods, but I'd rather have a Qun world than a darkspawn infested one.

On the bright side, with that brainwashing powder thing of theirs, you won't suffer as much! 

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

I don't think the submitting to the Qun is equal to "dooming the world." I don't agree with some of their methods, but I'd rather have a Qun world than a darkspawn infested one.

Filthy Qun lover.

Besides, who says that the alternative to a Qun world is a darkspawn infested one?  It's hardly like the Qun is our only hope against darkspawn.  =P

[Veruin]

Silfren wrote...

Filthy Qun lover.

Besides, who says that the alternative to a Qun world is a darkspawn infested one?  It's hardly like the Qun is our only hope against darkspawn.  =P

Darkspawn, demons, self aware lyrium, probably more; really Thedas just seems to be the world's toilet.

Modifié par Veruin, 29 janvier 2014 - 04:03 .

[The Baconer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You have a wierd definition of "doom" then.

No less doomed than a Thedas ruled by cackling randian magister lords.

[Br3admax]

Considering there is proof of them, I completely support a reinstatement of the Cult of the Old Gods.

[Hellion Rex]

Br3ad wrote...

Considering there is proof of them, I completely support a reinstatement of the Cult of the Old Gods.

I would be their first devotee!!

[The Elder King]

eluvianix wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Considering there is proof of them, I completely support a reinstatement of the Cult of the Old Gods.

I would be their first devotee!!

Sure, go ahead and worship them. It sure went well for Cory (maybe the Architect) and the world the last time:whistle:.

[Hellion Rex]

hhh89 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Considering there is proof of them, I completely support a reinstatement of the Cult of the Old Gods.

I would be their first devotee!!

Sure, go ahead and worship them. It sure went well for Cory (maybe the Architect) and the world the last time:whistle:.

Bah! They obviously were not devoted enough to Dumat, hence getting b*tch slapped out of the Fade and turning into darkspawn.

Modifié par eluvianix, 29 janvier 2014 - 04:23 .

[MisterJB]

I won't worship something my ancestors killed with a pointy piece of metal.

Veruin wrote...
Darkspawn, demons, self aware lyrium, probably more;

Kind of like Australia.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

I won't worship something my ancestors killed with a pointy piece of metal.

Join us.

[Pasquale1234]

dragonflight288 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

GabrielXL wrote...

Nicely expressed!

Indeed. Very nice post, dragonflight. 

Thanks guys. 

I echo the sentiment.

I also want to mention in addition to all that you covered in your post:  If mages were slaughtered in the rest of Thedas, the only mages that would remain would be:

- Darkspawn Emissaries
- Qunari Sarebaas
- Tevinter Magisters
- Maybe some Dalish, if they managed to escape

I certainly wouldn't want to be without well-trained mages on my side in that sort of world.