956 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

Don't forget making cats and dogs live together, causing mass hysteria.

[EmperorSahlertz]

My sister's dog and cats live perfectly well together. It might be time to prepare for the apocalypse.

[KaiserShep]

Don't forget human sacrifice.

[DKJaigen]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Preventing the destruction of the world is a hugely ironic goal when it involves the Sisyphusian task of systematically killing mages and their families forever.

ultimately casualties are much lesser because how many mages we have thousands how many died because single incydent that caused mages and is called blights? How many died because of abomnations or mages causing disasters. Compare and add to that potential destruction of the world when abomnations will go out of control. 

I won...

Are you absolutely certain that the blight is caused by the mages? perhaps their is a rather evil presence that created the blights on purpose. killing all mages will solve nothing in that case. And from the looks of it mundanes just kill each other over stupid war in the hundred thousands which is so far more damage then any abomination had done because i dont recall any major population center being wiped out by them.

Your solution is not sensible. magic is a dual edged sword wield it properly and you can use it to defend yourself. wield as badly as the chantry and you will cut yourself

[Pasquale1234]

dragonflight288 wrote...

You clearly have absolutely no understanding of the Fade, the lore or demons. Kill all the mages, and the demon problem won't go away. Period. And there are plenty of examples to prove it. The denerim alienage had rage demons, caused by the riots and the purge. No mages necessary. Northern Rivain, the veil was sundered in an Exalted March, slaughtering noncombatants so brutally that demons started entering the world. No mages. 

Oh, come on, we know that since magic is taught and practiced 24x7 in Circles, there are huge veil tears around every Circle.  Templars aren't there to protect / control the mages, they are there to fight all of the demons that constantly pour through, because mages.

Oh, and the Broken Circle in Fereldan?  Demons poured through the veil tears, no summoning necessary.  Because mages.

When you are dealing with walking nuclear bombs, the only smart thing to do is to keep kicking them to make sure they won't go off.  That will keep everyone safe from them.

It's a good thing I was here to educate you on these matters.

[dragonflight288]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

You clearly have absolutely no understanding of the Fade, the lore or demons. Kill all the mages, and the demon problem won't go away. Period. And there are plenty of examples to prove it. The denerim alienage had rage demons, caused by the riots and the purge. No mages necessary. Northern Rivain, the veil was sundered in an Exalted March, slaughtering noncombatants so brutally that demons started entering the world. No mages. 

Oh, come on, we know that since magic is taught and practiced 24x7 in Circles, there are huge veil tears around every Circle.  Templars aren't there to protect / control the mages, they are there to fight all of the demons that constantly pour through, because mages.

Oh, and the Broken Circle in Fereldan?  Demons poured through the veil tears, no summoning necessary.  Because mages.

When you are dealing with walking nuclear bombs, the only smart thing to do is to keep kicking them to make sure they won't go off.  That will keep everyone safe from them.

It's a good thing I was here to educate you on these matters.

 I'm not sure if this is serious or sarcastic. 

[Pasquale1234]

dragonflight288 wrote...

 I'm not sure if this is serious or sarcastic. 

Was it the deadpan delivery?

ETA:  Sorry, but after having been called ignorant, naive, openly mocked, etc. by someone with whom many of us have attempted respectful discourse and made no headway, I guess I just needed to do that.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 31 janvier 2014 - 07:42 .

[shodiswe]

Freedom. It will sort itself out eventualy. Stupid people are killed by their own stupidity.

[dragonflight288]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

 I'm not sure if this is serious or sarcastic. 

Was it the deadpan delivery?

ETA:  Sorry, but after having been called ignorant, naive, openly mocked, etc. by someone with whom many of us have attempted respectful discourse and made no headway, I guess I just needed to do that.

Fair enough. 

[TK514]

dragonflight288 wrote...

You clearly have absolutely no understanding of the Fade, the lore or demons. Kill all the mages, and the demon problem won't go away. Period. And there are plenty of examples to prove it. The denerim alienage had rage demons, caused by the riots and the purge. No mages necessary. Northern Rivain, the veil was sundered in an Exalted March, slaughtering noncombatants so brutally that demons started entering the world. No mages. 

Nor do you need to be a mage to get possessed. Possessed templars are enemies in both annulments in both games. Sophia Dryden was possessed. The Herriman family is quite adamant that Lady Herriman was not a mage, and even Sebastain vouches for that, yet because of a Desire demon, she had borderline blood magic capabilities. 

This is all in the History of Thedas, in the codex entries, scattered throughout the dialogue. Killing the mages won't solve the problems you hope to solve. 

Period. 

Again with this?

Sophia Dryden was NOT possessed.  Her corpse was reanimated.  Completely different.

Tarhone makes it unambiguously clear that she had to force demons into normal people, and it was often lethal to the potential host.

We have no idea if Harriman was or wasn't a mage, and if not, how she got her powers.

[Pasquale1234]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Fair enough. 

Thanks.

And in the future, I'll leave parody to the professionals.

ETA:

TK514 wrote...

Tarhone makes it unambiguously clear that
she had to force demons into normal people, and it was often lethal to
the potential host.

To be fair, it may have been due to them resisting that it had to be forced.

We don't know much about the rules or ramifications of a demon possessing a mundane host without magical assistance.

We have no idea if Harriman was or wasn't a mage, and if not, how she got her powers.

Wasn't it stated that there wasn't any magic in that family?

I suppose one could accuse them of hiding her status as a mage, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary - it's easier for me to believe the demon did it.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 31 janvier 2014 - 08:40 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TK514 wrote...

Again with this?

Sophia Dryden was NOT possessed.  Her corpse was reanimated.  Completely different.

Her corpse was possessed, and still had her memories. That's not so different.

Tarhone makes it unambiguously clear that she had to force demons into normal people, and it was often lethal to the potential host.

Fair enough. And I suppose that would explain the Possessed Templars.

We have no idea if Harriman was or wasn't a mage, and if not, how she got her powers.

From all I understand the in-game analysis is that she was a non-mage who was given her powers. Her family swears up and down that this is the case and even Sebastian believes that this is more likely. And it's not like demons granting the ability to do magic is 100% without precedent. I'll grant that we still don't technically know, but it seems more likely than not that she wasn't a mage.

As for the orphanage, don't forget that Ser Otto believes that maleficarum are behind it, and that you meet three abominations at the end of the dungeon right before the last boss. This isn't an endorsement of Komandor's plan, which is fatally flawed in terms of logistics (the Templars can't find all the mages without this incentive not to get caught), morality (though I agree with him that this takes a back-seat to what is needed at times), and long-term strategy (the spawn, Tevinter, and Qunari would laugh at him if he did this), but I still had to point this out.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 31 janvier 2014 - 09:25 .

[TK514]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Again with this?

Sophia Dryden was NOT possessed.  Her corpse was reanimated.  Completely different.

Her corpse was possessed, and still had her memories. That's not so different.

As different as a person and a rock.  Or are we saying that the skeletons that pop up  all over the place are possessed?  Certainly a demon is the animating force in both cases, but are they really the same as an abomination?  Or Anders?

Sophia is being used an an example of a normal person being possessed.  This is blatantly not the case.  A normal person can resist.  A normal person can die from the attempt.  Demons have to be forced into normal people.  Corpses put up no resistance.  They have no animating force, no willpower, nothing to take over or displace.  They're no different than a rock or a tree, in that regard, so Sophia is NOT an example of a normal person being possessed.  To use her as one is incorrect at best, intentionally deceptive at worst.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
This isn't an endorsement of Komandor's plan, which is fatally flawed in terms of logistics, morality (though I agree with him that this takes a back-seat to what is needed at times), and long-term strategy (the spawn, Tevinter, and Qunari would laugh at him if he did this), but I still had to point this out.

I don't give a squat about Komandor's plan.  If mages are being born to normal people randomly and in increasing numbers, it's completely non-viable.  You'd never get enough of them to make any difference.  All his plan would do would create an increasingly large class of people with immense power and nothing to lose by using it.

I just don't think misinformation is necessary when logic will suffice.  And, frankly, if the person you're in a debate with refuses to accept logic counter to their assumptions, no matter how rigorously backed up by facts and data, they aren't worth engaging in debate.  Ignore them and move on.  You're never going to 'win' a debate on the internet, but there are people worth conversing with, and there are people who aren't.

For example, Lady Harriman.  I accept that she was casting spells.  I accept that her daughter and Sebastian believe she wasn't a mage.  What I don't accept, based on other information provided in a game where mages are hiding what they are, for years, everywhere from noble houses to brothels to farms, is that her daughter and Sebastian are unimpeachable expert witnesses.

If you're going to accept rumors stating that mages are being born to normal people all the time and in increasing frequency, which is a primary pillar of the argument against Komandor's position, you don't get to ignore it when it doesn't fit your model somewhere else.  Lady Harriman could have been a mage all along.  Now, if someone can point out proof that the Desire demon was directly feeding Lady Harriman whatever she needed to cast spells, then I'll tip my hat, admit I was wrong, and move on to other parts of the debate.  But I don't think it can be done without a WoG intervention which, to my knowledge, hasn't appeared yet.

Modifié par TK514, 31 janvier 2014 - 09:39 .

[dragonflight288]

TK514 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

You clearly have absolutely no understanding of the Fade, the lore or demons. Kill all the mages, and the demon problem won't go away. Period. And there are plenty of examples to prove it. The denerim alienage had rage demons, caused by the riots and the purge. No mages necessary. Northern Rivain, the veil was sundered in an Exalted March, slaughtering noncombatants so brutally that demons started entering the world. No mages. 

Nor do you need to be a mage to get possessed. Possessed templars are enemies in both annulments in both games. Sophia Dryden was possessed. The Herriman family is quite adamant that Lady Herriman was not a mage, and even Sebastain vouches for that, yet because of a Desire demon, she had borderline blood magic capabilities. 

This is all in the History of Thedas, in the codex entries, scattered throughout the dialogue. Killing the mages won't solve the problems you hope to solve. 

Period. 

Again with this?

Sophia Dryden was NOT possessed.  Her corpse was reanimated.  Completely different.

Well, when I played Warden's Keep, we see Avernus summon a bunch of demons and the last thing we hear a perfectly normal Sophia say is "Avernus!"

Then we meet the possessed/reanimated corpse. And it goes on and on "This one has seen her memories, touched her thoughts, but she is food for this one. No more, and no less." And the deal it wants to make with the Warden is essentially let it out so she can continue to feed on others and explore the world. The warden's dialogue specifically says she had been possessed.

Compared to reanimated corpses like Connor's army where they may as well have had the intelligence of zombies from "The Walking Dead."

I wouldn't even call her a Revenant, which is a powerful demon possessing a cold corpse, but she, while powerful, most certainly lacked a revenant's capabilities. 

I think logically that she quite frankly was possessed, and my Warden's dialogue specifically calls it out. Saying she's reanimated may be true, but it doesn't match what I see in the game. 

Tarhone makes it unambiguously clear that she had to force demons into normal people, and it was often lethal to the potential host.

While true, she was also summoning the demons directly from the Fade. This says nothing about demons who are already sundered from the Fade.

What we do know is that most spirits and demons will possess the very first thing they come in contact with upon entering Thedas. From trees and become sylvans, animals like Witherfang (although Zathrian bound the Spirit into a wolf, the codex says it can happen without a mage, should the spirit/demon come in contact with the animal,) corpses, and so on. And if a demon possesses nothing, they eventually become a shade in the world. 

If a spirit/demon can possess all these things, why then is it so impossible to possess a non-mage without a mages help? The only logic I can see here is that they would only need the mage to leave the Fade directly so they could enter the new host, not to actually possess the person. 

We have no idea if Harriman was or wasn't a mage, and if not, how she got her powers.

Her family and Sebastian are pretty adament that she was not a mage, and no other sources are said on the subject, so the only information we have is that she isn't a mage and she had made a deal with a demon for power, and when we fought she had blood magic capabilities. 

I simply deduced that if her whole family had no idea she was a mage and she had never been to a circle for training, then she may easily have lit a kids head on fire as a child like Wynne did or something. The fact that we aren't given any information at all, although we aren't given much, then the only logical conclusion is that her powers weren't natural. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TK514 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Again with this?

Sophia Dryden was NOT possessed.  Her corpse was reanimated.  Completely different.

Her corpse was possessed, and still had her memories. That's not so different.

As different as a person and a rock.  Or are we saying that the skeletons that pop up  all over the place are possessed?  Certainly a demon is the animating force in both cases, but are they really the same as an abomination?  Or Anders?

Sophia is being used an an example of a normal person being possessed.  This is blatantly not the case.  A normal person can resist.  A normal person can die from the attempt.  Demons have to be forced into normal people.  Corpses put up no resistance.  They have no animating force, no willpower, nothing to take over or displace.  They're no different than a rock or a tree, in that regard, so Sophia is NOT an example of a normal person being possessed.  To use her as one is incorrect at best, intentionally deceptive at worst.

I'm not saying they're the same thing. I'm just saying that the term "possessed" is the correct term whether it's a sylvan, a skeleton, or a mage. (Or a Templar, which happens. Apparently by force, but there you go.)

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
This isn't an endorsement of Komandor's plan, which is fatally flawed in terms of logistics, morality (though I agree with him that this takes a back-seat to what is needed at times), and long-term strategy (the spawn, Tevinter, and Qunari would laugh at him if he did this), but I still had to point this out.

I don't give a squat about Komandor's plan.  If mages are being born to normal people randomly and in increasing numbers, it's completely non-viable.  You'd never get enough of them to make any difference.  All his plan would do would create an increasingly large class of people with immense power and nothing to lose by using it.

I just don't think misinformation is necessary when logic will suffice.  And, frankly, if the person you're in a debate with refuses to accept logic counter to their assumptions, no matter how rigorously backed up by facts and data, they aren't worth engaging in debate.  Ignore them and move on.  You're never going to 'win' a debate on the internet, but there are people worth conversing with, and there are people who aren't.

For example, Lady Harriman.  I accept that she was casting spells.  I accept that her daughter and Sebastian believe she wasn't a mage.  What I don't accept, based on other information provided in a game where mages are hiding what they are, for years, everywhere from noble houses to brothels to farms, is that her daughter and Sebastian are unimpeachable expert witnesses.

If you're going to accept rumors stating that mages are being born to normal people all the time and in increasing frequency, which is a primary pillar of the argument against Komandor's position, you don't get to ignore it when it doesn't fit your model somewhere else.  Lady Harriman could have been a mage all along.  Now, if someone can point out proof that the Desire demon was directly feeding Lady Harriman whatever she needed to cast spells, then I'll tip my hat, admit I was wrong, and move on to other parts of the debate.  But I don't think it can be done without a WoG intervention which, to my knowledge, hasn't appeared yet.

Just because mages are being born to muggles doesn't mean that Lady Harriman is one of these mages. You're right in that she could have been, certainly, but for her daughter to claim she wasn't  is relevant evidence. It can be doubted, certainly, but it's evidence against her being a mage and it's not like the alternative (the demon provided her enough power to do what she did) is impossible. And I'm given to understand that Sebastian points out that she has no mage ancestors, and while not every child of a mage is a mage I am given to understand that you need some mage blood to have any chance of it. This can be downplayed too, but it is nonetheless a hint in the direction of Lady Harriman being a non-mage.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 31 janvier 2014 - 10:44 .

[TK514]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I'm not saying they're the same thing. I'm just saying that the term "possessed" is the correct term whether it's a sylvan, a skeleton, or a mage. (Or a Templar, which happens. Apparently by force, but there you go.)

Fair enough.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Just because mages are being born to muggles doesn't mean that Lady Harriman is one of these mages. You're right in that she could have been, certainly, but for her daughter to claim she wasn't  is relevant evidence. It can be doubted, certainly, but it's evidence against her being a mage and it's not like the alternative (the demon provided her enough power to do what she did) is impossible. And I'm given to understand that Sebastian points out that she has no mage ancestors, and while not every child of a mage is a mage I am given to understand that you need some mage blood to have any chance of it. This can be downplayed too, but it is nonetheless a hint in the direction of Lady Harriman being a non-mage.

I don't think there has to have been mage blood in your family to be born a mage.  I think it's just a spontaneously stronger connection to the Fade that happens to some people.  Ultimately, however, I do agree with you.  I don't think Harriman was a mage.  I think she suffered from 'gameplay at the expense of lore explanation', in that someone felt the fight needed more oomph, so she became a spellcaster.  Much like someone felt the ending needed more oomph, so Orsino became a Harvester for no reason.  My issue is that a supposition is being treated like incontrovertible proof in order to bolster someone's argument.  Frankly, the issue being debated is already weak enough.  We don't need to make things up, misrepresent events, or treat guesswork as fact for the proposal of mage genocide to fall apart.  It all but does that on it's own, from the get go, and there are plenty of actual facts in the setting to more than show it would be a terrible idea.


Making things up, or misrepresenting what happened, to try to bolster your argument really only weakens it in the end.  After all, if you already have real facts on your side, why do you need to make new ones up?

[TheKomandorShepard]

DKJaigen wrote...


Are you absolutely certain that the blight is caused by the mages? perhaps their is a rather evil presence that created the blights on purpose. killing all mages will solve nothing in that case. And from the looks of it mundanes just kill each other over stupid war in the hundred thousands which is so far more damage then any abomination had done because i dont recall any major population center being wiped out by them.

Your solution is not sensible. magic is a dual edged sword wield it properly and you can use it to defend yourself. wield as badly as the chantry and you will cut yourself

Well Cory confirms chantry version maker or not ultimately blight was brought to thedas by magisters (cory is darkspawn himself) and whether that was maker wrath , supwerpowerful evil creature or just found thing in black city that shouldn't be found ultimately that was mage power hunger that caused that and old god manipulation.Peoples always will kill each other but as far peoples don't go on rampage with "kill everything in the world" so always is about nation and not destroing nation only controling it and as i said king need army to do that abomnation have personal power. 

As far i saw magic blessed with suck noting more if you want compare damage done by mages and positive things done by them we can do that but i can assure you in that matter i will win. Magic is curse not blessing why i can tell you why if you want. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TK514 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I'm not saying they're the same thing. I'm just saying that the term "possessed" is the correct term whether it's a sylvan, a skeleton, or a mage. (Or a Templar, which happens. Apparently by force, but there you go.)

Fair enough.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Just because mages are being born to muggles doesn't mean that Lady Harriman is one of these mages. You're right in that she could have been, certainly, but for her daughter to claim she wasn't  is relevant evidence. It can be doubted, certainly, but it's evidence against her being a mage and it's not like the alternative (the demon provided her enough power to do what she did) is impossible. And I'm given to understand that Sebastian points out that she has no mage ancestors, and while not every child of a mage is a mage I am given to understand that you need some mage blood to have any chance of it. This can be downplayed too, but it is nonetheless a hint in the direction of Lady Harriman being a non-mage.

I don't think there has to have been mage blood in your family to be born a mage.  I think it's just a spontaneously stronger connection to the Fade that happens to some people.

Dagna notes that the Tevinters followed geneologies, Isolde notes that her grandfather was a mage, and the Codex "Journal of the Tranquil" also makes the connection. In short, a persons magic is positively coorelated to any magical ancestors he might have had. I suppose we can't know that it's necessary, and Feynriel doesn't seem to have had any for all we know, so thinking about it it might not be.

[dragonflight288]

....and Feynriel doesn't seem to have had any for all we know, so thinking about it it might not be.

Feynriel's mother is a Dalish, a group of people who switch people around clans to prevent in-breeding, and we know nothing of his father's family.

For all we know, there may be quite a bit of magic in his line.

[The Baconer]

Another book musing:

Evangeline uses the term "half-cocked", which immediately struck me as a strange phrase to use in a world that does not have firearms.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The Baconer wrote...

Another book musing:

Evangeline uses the term "half-cocked", which immediately struck me as a strange phrase to use in a world that does not have firearms.

Well, in old times that term was used to refer to a cone shaped pile of hay so the term has a similar meaning back then and today: to not be adequately prepared. Either by not having the pile of hay or firearm fully set.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 01 février 2014 - 05:34 .

[The Baconer]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Well, in old times that term was used to refer to a cone shaped pile of hay so the term has a similar meaning back then and today: to not be adequately prepared. Either by not having the pile of hay or firearm fully set.

Given the origin of the phrase, and it's construction (half-cocked instead of... with half a ****? Or without a full ****?) I'm extremely skeptical.

Modifié par The Baconer, 01 février 2014 - 05:49 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The Baconer wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Well, in old times that term was used to refer to a cone shaped pile of hay so the term has a similar meaning back then and today: to not be adequately prepared. Either by not having the pile of hay or firearm fully set.

Given the origin of the phrase, and it's construction (half-cocked instead of... with half a ****?) I'm extremely skeptical.

Well, what's the whole sentence? I can't say for certain until I know what context it was used in. And I should also mention the cocking, and thus in past tense cocked, is also used for the activity of making the pile of hay.

[The Baconer]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
Well, what's the whole sentence? I can't say for certain until I know what context it was used in. And I should also mention the cocking, and thus in past tense cocked, is also used for the activity of making the pile of hay.

"Running around half-cocked and full of rage isn't going to help anyone."

And, I'll admit that I've never cocked hay myself, but if I were to try, when do I know that I've got a full ****? Is it quantifiable?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The Baconer wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
Well, what's the whole sentence? I can't say for certain until I know what context it was used in. And I should also mention the cocking, and thus in past tense cocked, is also used for the activity of making the pile of hay.

"Running around half-cocked and full of rage isn't going to help anyone."

And, I'll admit that I've never cocked hay myself, but if I were to try, when do I know that I've got a full ****? Is it quantifiable?

I think it applies. Half-cocked simply means "In an inadequate or poorly prepared manner", and I remembver reading that if the hay was not fully cocked, that the pile was prone to falling apart. 

Here are a couple fully cocked piles of hay. See how they are really well bound by the ropes/net. If it wasn't fully cocked, those would be loose and the hay would just fall apart.
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ObLg2laZe47xHuaesPdLW89Lu9P2XGV8c0UwxrIGpJ+KdCZ90TtFxoYl7XNpik0MDQ0OL9yS6Te8j2WO5RknuysUNFRM1SdSTt/hX8FVy0qh3iNNiDefT6dVkqTX/P95WZobNAO8LW5tA7SSLifa36rd7P1IdluS8DwmAWuGhH/AJD3XO4LiWWBuJhx5RYLUo49xdTqhsOBDHAbh2hj0+qiV1RSo7xlVpawjWBNjEiQT7AfNPn2tPn81XZVY6k58hgDZJDZLdJOWb2DjH9qyP5tSpuMVTUDiTJsYtFpMEQbLowdRUdWc+bp7bkjfn0SD1SqcZwjabKhr/GSIbTc6IMEyLHrvcKVLGUHDMMRRhwlv+o0xpfMwQZnVdXfh7OV4Jr4LuZN3qHSaXiWy8A5SWtLgDuJAhLEMcwcwQSC05ovBEagg9Nwq7kPZHan6C94mWDV4g4GA73EH2hJR3fs/wC3+zT6d+0Z9LAOnxP82tkAC1hfZXmUmg2AaYyyBJLSBYzY6BCp1Bbfnof9kVzrEj6xHuvlHmy35OjeT+QVTAscIIJvryN79NSqg4JQiMhPnt9FoioYEzvr+pTl4dYEdYsVClk9sVsp/wAlo3GWzhB67/oqw7OUZkT5a6LVY4iNxsf99U4eTrBH6eqXcyr9TFbM13Z6jckazM/VCwXA8kwQ4bTIO9iPVbJc2wPpaPZTp1Aenqq72Wqsez9mfT4e4fjbpGhv6rlO0T5rFgjwWMCBMCdF2nFK3dUXvabgGPWwPW5C87cfUm5Xf0e8m5SZpFtj0PCZ5fXb9E9WsXHoBbyiFBQXoGgSlofMCeUz+iJQqXkHQgXk2sTPsgg2UgwgTFtPr+x9kAbnD8VkymQATIEHQCBrYm/yW27Dkus2AWhw2aTmIgAaWaLbAjyXJlvgDtREeU3/AP0un4fjooNdmgtc0nUDK7wRb8OZw9lnLjwVSfk6bhTYpjNeAREQPi110IifReadqMH/AA+IqUwMoBJaCAZa+406W9F6dSrMIDhY6mBIH4ct78/dD4uKdeKha3O3wzEyLgQCLEW91g8micqsufETxwkiJ+/uFPNa48tfkvT6mEYbFrSOoBVPFYGhTpkupsDAI97QDsso/wDoJutTm7hwbNFJNUde0AchoOidd5oRhM4KUpBqYBMGwFzQ7Q2O2q18HiWNgTBDgBeRA3WLCehJcI1lS0FndcNxYcJgtbmmB4gRIzg9CCf8wuJ4jhe7rVKZJ8D3NneAbesfVdJw0lpcHWuSJnKZGgOyyO1lEiu58HLUDXA8zlAN1EXTouXgymRCnSxLxIBPURI9VXLybR6p2kDWZ5j9VqQWsPjHNBGZ7J/IS2YtfnafdaeC7R4mnmDcRVLXC4kfENHAOBym1y2CeayGYiQbAnlMz6FQqPiOR5adfW6AOrHbWoLOqX3/AKLP0dCdcmHjmfcfqklQHoAmNW2m5/wpsAm5+eqIaZA8VMjeYzAb6jT1QyRNh98/sLwHadNHL/Uk0Ntt76/YUn07yACdev8AlCZVIN2nfy9EdkaXHPzUNtBYiHkaxzv6aJmNIN9TYCfp1/ZEfpayC6kHCDOsi9wdbGeaFTGFpsm40Hz/AH2ThgiIHykfqh0Kjg3KSC0E2IIk21g9B7INfENY0l5DQJ/a0q9eaQFPtGIouN9WidtdPkuLe5bHGuOd6CxohltdTGh6an0WHmXr9NjcIUzaCpBJ0Uc36/fy+ai5ybMugsJTH6fMxP0U8x0mRp+v1uoMNk7Tz+7IAnn8Men37q/RxB7sgahgaOV3A+twswlWYAmDqIj0j1SaGjqOHY9zhTIMATI5Gbyeo0W2KvhkQ3Yz0HI+fzXNdn6jYGbyA1kyfv8A2XV0atN4gWiANtAIOnl7+S4up/K0ObuJz/GateP6RJ0ByiXT0+9lyWN71py1M8jRrp18ivRatMaib6ncCLfreEJ9AWkNdB/F4oM2PTQLDF1CxKqOdcHm7T7pF916E/A0nASxp1gtA97efzUBwKiLinI5RN+d1v8AXw+UytzgJUgYXev4JQdMsAkagx69NEm8HosiGTG+t7DQp/X4/TDuHG0qDnCQ0mbSOcTCfB4Oo4+EE7g6e0ru6VBgFgRz205iPuVKo0wctLNuBG/MFZPr2+FEXcMbB0H0iH1IDQLEGRzgnQWM81ruqU6nibMuDYYYDRl3YDuRCkO8yGacT+EiBpc3VrBYAuAIaB7xI5fJYTzSm6Sdj3b4Methm5iHMaYF5aPr7oZ7M0H+IMcJOxIby309Oa1sex1NzQWVHgnWmwvH/VpfytK28PRphgzNBJE5n5wSOoIlvlFlePDnfK/D/LBRZ57iex4gljyDyIn5rJqdnq7czQ23O1yvU8PQpvGZwDJ/CHWHrO/KyjjeFj8M3B1JLfcCy3X1UPNP/v4CpI8bq4CoCRkdboSkvVv5XWFg1xHMOBHoSUlX1Ob9gbS9Gs/HCbZW85gab9FWo4Ok8uLTnNyQ1wIEnaLgXXLUO1dF9nNcDGpEjneLpqHG8PhqratGmQ4cg1o331jbRdUscZfmVmrSfk7Udns2jao3vpHqELGcGFMt8RuDHiYQYgWi5uRotLB9pKWJw5q0/CQWNrN+E5XODTB21N522sqGJfkfnEHLUblFgGtLXaSOQaLfVYvp8f7RaR9HMYioWFwNnNtuQdDoLFSw9cOGxPT9Uqz7mY67/wC/+VBp8YA0yuIHQZQPqfZeXJLwkYNGZxnjWQ5WN8VoJ09NyuWxWKe8y4k2tOw6DZdy7DteQ4tEjQn6+6qVOEsc5xLQYta2oBmB5rowZ8cF45BNHEOKTCuuqdn2G46WmNNZKjh+AUiJJPlNvL5LrXWY6LU0cgVp9n+CHFVBTFRtMn4S4PdmP5WhgJJXSHg1OnfuwQNZ0ItI+u1lmUahpPLKZyvBcNgRBtfcEeXstMWeOXwVGVnQn/hhUy2xLc2zXUX0weYJLiR6t0v0XNYzstiqb+7dRqF1/gaajTHJzZ+cLsOFsxbHsexwqNqMlzXvJ3dYEWadYMLsKtR02ZYECQ6TzJjVaO18l1Z40zs7XgyxzYnUHY7c/wDK18F2Y71pJrMFyBabiJDgNCJFuuq9RrMETB3vOnpZcH2uxzqFajVpthhDqdXQNc4uaWtIPw+G+Y/opV3yx60WOHdmalNuUPaQOcg2PS2onX/Jzgn0yLMBNrEDYiYdHT1W1hXlzZynL52jYxOltdOuiq18S1rTmL2tGpcHkAfiPQaGfNZzwxn5E435K2CwdR5hrbjUnwtAnUk29Fs0+y7vxVG8oa2+mkk/ouS7QMyhuKYWvFM5Sx0uD2vMEtjkTcyCIkLX4f2hbVaytSNQ5RlqM/1H0pIJ1u+mYgOuQQ2WzE5x6SCXPIKC8GpxXgAZSLqN6rRmyviox5BktgAa6CDyWVwPtHSqHuq+HZSfNpbkzO0jTW+i6LAcRfYs8bTMtDofH/S8zbzvt0xe2+Ea/D1H06YaQCbkCI2s4gOnTS4hbRxQXhIqkjYqMpvDZY2IIbe8C0F0Zvfms/FcMyHO1pczduYNdGksJBBPQxpquX7K9oBVGWXF7RbvHS5zd/FF4J0XXYfinVoEjdt7ankdLongxy8olpMenwpjz/QqNztAJbUDXG4mHgQ5h6xadCmxFENIa49246ZTlnnBjxemizO0zXOc2phmVP4mm0uD2ZcpbqaTwSM0wY6+aDU7S4XGUe7xMNJHiE5XsqCxIB0IIiNOesK4QjBVFUOkbANUSAY82zI6i2yIyi2tYu7t7d2AtmRoQR4mxPvz04LEccrYLwse2vQcJovdeP7TBkERcdARCpYrtxiHfiYwf2tv7klXQjsOL4t2GhtQZfFDajINN0zq0nwu6SdLHlUZ2qphgcBUqgEh4yANG13Pt18JXn2Ix1apnqRUcCMtR8Etgn4XmI1MgHoeSqU8YQHNmzokeRBH0RQWepMrUKgDm1hSDoPdd4GiJbZrqXiZBJ5+gVijxFkubTqOZls4MqNqAAanK8F3/ivJWVT+HkdwPPVbHDia4NQ1MPTfTLSO/eKebKQYGWC8Ra4Omt0UB6lh8a3KMv8AUGz4Hi6+GB7JLzxvFyzw97TEf8qnRNPn4C6qCR5gJKKZVo51jryNfVTeTa5Wa0OBsXA9FYbVfIzkxH9osPRaEncf8P6hLqtLwnO2A1wnPeSyY0MDWy6ftJiKktYCwMLm5/zhwbNzpF/kuT7JcMOZtUBjmTJqPrZGMAufA0hxd523ut3iGLNSvh3tc6A/I8Py0jWLGx3hmzHTqSRYaFZyKRlucZOWSNdB981GDnEEnwv5c2WVh9Rom4IFotaCYuChGs0uEflNpH5m6ey8f8Tb4OepN+AgpOjX5X8vvmmoMMvk/iGwm7WpMxAB9LGRp9wg/wAR8ZDgJcLTyY39UlCXIJP0WZP5okRcclWw5dkbBGgOn3KCQJnODO0j3U8NimtayXNHhEmR9Ea8eBc14J4t7snxXlsjL/cBz6rC4vxRtSqx7Gd08WLs2YucDZxEQCLrbxWPYQIe34mfiH5gSFxlaSTGlyPdd3RR8touBt0eMPogubGYn45cHC2gEwBaZI5812VDiWKrUWvc7JIlwMgA5iJIN5gC3ULy+vjnGBEQZ+Ea+epUX4qq8iXvJ2kn5SbLvas0PYeB8bFUd09xzn4HPhoeQLhsHxG2mqxu2nEKTGGm5zXvD2khs1BInUiwMEi5XH8Nos+N1MVqgAI76oMhOsd34SRPMkDddnUweMqUmYirQbkvIolji1ggsJyuJI15gCNFEkUnxRQ7Occp0KNJkk95UcT4g1rbf7WJ3tyXU0uKMeIyubMXJbbpr8+i817R4JjvHSNLKAGlocGuMEiWsJu24uORWef6byCa1JuwjM4GLxJA1m8p1YrPTK/EA4upspNcS0gl7iaZggFjp+InoDYLhsNxD+ExT6jLAPyvoNNSkS1zBnALhIGaRfdotELWfxx2HdTq0sLmBY1zalch9aQbwczsgIA2B3WNx/jrMXle+kQ8O8YBgOBBkgi+azblHKGbWLxFHvQWVjhy8CrTFak0gzIIFej4mGQb5dl1GADABVr16dcvkUqVM1Hh3huCSMz3axyE87eSVshADWOBAuS6Z5wJ++S0eF4ujQgtZUq1XCHHN3bQDEsaGyXcpMJ0KyPH8EcNiajGMqUmyCxrrODSNjymRqdFntquDg4SHC8yZBWtxmq2oWOZUeRBDWvc572gmbkkgekz9KPdtGsn1TEzQwHE67nQ/Fmg2z5c4knWA1u5vpYGVQ4phnio5znd5JJ75pkOMxdwsXWvBI6lTxOKYWklrM+UMaGsaN5zGNTtOt1UOJdUygmzQQIa0RPUCfdAEalIH808+X7p8C5rTmcwPyuEtJOVwvqBpByn0TvpxoTpe/uFXHQackxHSN4hRpk+F7jlyhpeXUWiTIDHGHtMzeI0y7rJ4jWbUILGMpgCDlDW5iN8gsIk339FWpszCbfU+oUnYWGk5r9UqHYO0GZMRAmARNwbTvzGillabtZk6S5w87kqTahNPKHOLQZyjSed7ITXOkjTfqgQ2cpJd03mkgZdwpRnNB1TpKGMudmWg43DggEZxY3Friy9M4KwfxtYwJBoQYv4jXzX6wJ8gkklL4D4Oex3+vX/APsrf+xVY3NOb+Gprf8AHTSSXmfoZkvDC4to7rQaj/1KDhWj+r0cI/7GpJKV/gkoY1xzESYDRbb2ROHsDmszAGw1E7dUkk58QX8DfgHjcOzw+Fv+qwaD8y5gffukkuro22mOAN6enqEkl3Ggas0Tolharg9kEjxsNiRcOaQfkPZMkhAPjcQ7O45nWc+Lm03Mecn3Qu8JAkkxMSSY00SSQwHY6FF5SSQAsWIcVXm/p+iSSBBWO19FFxlzp6fROkgZWcj0jZJJACwziXmSd1Zrbp0kxMzpgiLX2spVtkkkDJYc3KarefNJJAAyEkkkAf/Z

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 01 février 2014 - 06:07 .