956 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

KaiserShep wrote...

Metaphors always work best when people are reduced to insects.

if you dpn't like it i can always edit and put weeds there:devil:

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 02 février 2014 - 08:30 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Baconer wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It will still happen occasionally, but it would be a thousand times rarer.

Would it? Do you think that there wouldn't be a lot of mages who, upon realizing the inevitable fate that awaits them, would do as much damage possible to the world that rejected them? Wouldn't you?

What mages are we talking about?

They would be rounded up and killed long before mastering magic.
The few that escape (and there will always be a few that do) will be like apostates are now.
Of course, with no Circlesto take care of, you'd have a lot more templars patrolling about, thus making life for apostates even harder.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And you and Lotion both have not answered the meat of my question, as I acknowledged that it would happen less often, but you both ignored the direct question.

Kommander, I'll ask again.

If you killed all the mages, and you had a veil tear, without a mage, how would you mend it?

Keep a handfull alivejsutincase?

We don't even know if there are other ways to close a veil tear? Lyrium? Runes?



Oh, let's not forget that poeple avoid areas where the veil is thin.

[Banxey]

The veil thins (or is torn) wherever there is a lot of bloodshed. So unless the people of Thedas become hippies after this mass mage genocide, you're going to have a bad time.

Of course, the demons wont just stop coveting the lives of mortals if you kill off all the mages. It's not like demons wont possess just about anything available to them. And one Revenant can take out an entire unit of soldiers. So good luck guarding those tears..

[TheKomandorShepard]

Banxey2 wrote...

The veil thins (or is torn) wherever there is a lot of bloodshed. So unless the people of Thedas become hippies after this mass mage genocide, you're going to have a bad time.

Of course, the demons wont just stop coveting the lives of mortals if you kill off all the mages. It's not like demons wont possess just about anything available to them. And one Revenant can take out an entire unit of soldiers. So good luck guarding those tears..

Not rly i very very doubt that killing mages will change much veil if that was in case veil would be torned thousands years ago... because even fitfth blight have much much more victims than we have mages and they tend to be much brutal i don't mention other wars...

without mages veil will be slower weakened as using magic do that much faster so if that isn't lose-lose situation where simple you can't fix veil removing mages provides more.  

About apostates there will be always few but with my ideas their number will radically drop.

First there is needed new anti-magical organisation as previous known was either to corrupted , soft or just not involved in things that they shouldn't.Their trening need to be harsher and be taught from youngest age to be
ruthless and loyal.And no involving religion or other organisations influence they should hunt mages.

Second move is change law concerning mages like mage is automatically sentenced to death , any person who is helping mage will be severely punished and person who will help in capturing mage will be rewarded.There is also good idea to spread little more hate toward mages changing religion teaching about mages that mages are evil , devils or maker abomnations take your pick it will increase the effectiveness.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 02 février 2014 - 01:14 .

[Uccio]

Templars are made by men, they can be unmade. After the victory all templars will be executed and their training procedures destroyed.

[The Elder King]

Ukki wrote...

Templars are made by men, they can be unmade. After the victory all templars will be executed and their training procedures destroyed.

I hope you'll get that much freedom in deciding the outcome of the war. I'm pessimistic about this.

[KaiserShep]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
First there is needed new anti-magical organisation as previous known was either to corrupted , soft or just not involved in things that they shouldn't.Their trening need to be harsher and be taught from youngest age to be
ruthless and loyal.And no involving religion or other organisations influence they should hunt mages.

Second move is change law concerning mages like mage is automatically sentenced to death , any person who is helping mage will be severely punished and person who will help in capturing mage will be rewarded.There is also good idea to spread little more hate toward mages changing religion teaching about mages that mages are evil , devils or maker abomnations take your pick it will increase the effectiveness.

Oh goody, a neo-Templar Youth organization to goosestep across Thedas.

And to top it off, there's even a team of propagandists and demagogues to rally the dupes to their cause.

Any yahoo can conjure up a crazy dystopia. The trick is making it believable. This seems about as feasible as me going back in time to the Council of Nicaea and replacing the first uniform Christian doctrine with The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. On that note, if I ever get a time machine, that will be my first order of business.

[TheKomandorShepard]

KaiserShep wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
First there is needed new anti-magical organisation as previous known was either to corrupted , soft or just not involved in things that they shouldn't.Their trening need to be harsher and be taught from youngest age to be
ruthless and loyal.And no involving religion or other organisations influence they should hunt mages.

Second move is change law concerning mages like mage is automatically sentenced to death , any person who is helping mage will be severely punished and person who will help in capturing mage will be rewarded.There is also good idea to spread little more hate toward mages changing religion teaching about mages that mages are evil , devils or maker abomnations take your pick it will increase the effectiveness.

Oh goody, a neo-Templar Youth organization to goosestep across Thedas.

And to top it off, there's even a team of propagandists and demagogues to rally the dupes to their cause.

Any yahoo can conjure up a crazy dystopia. The trick is making it believable. This seems about as feasible as me going back in time to the Council of Nicaea and replacing the first uniform Christian doctrine with The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. On that note, if I ever get a time machine, that will be my first order of business.

Nah why even bother all i need to do is build churches add to that a little madness and set pretty book for believers oh and create omniscient creature that peoples will worship and we have self-perpetuating system peoples are idiots history proves that yeah im bastard.

And it very fortunate thing that world is falling apart and chaos is destroying old order perfect time to create new order! 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 02 février 2014 - 04:31 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

hhh89 wrote...

Ukki wrote...

Templars are made by men, they can be unmade. After the victory all templars will be executed and their training procedures destroyed.

I hope you'll get that much freedom in deciding the outcome of the war. I'm pessimistic about this.

Considering Inquisition is not the final Dragon Age game, I highly doubt the option to completely annihilate factions.

[TK514]

dragonflight288 wrote...

So in the end, you have no real solution for when it will happen. It won't be that often, but you have no solution for when it will happen. You'll need mages.

Hence, your solution of killing all the mages as a safety measure doesn't actually solve the problem.

The existence of DA:I, where you have freedom of both character creation and party makeup, strongly suggests you will not need a mage to close a Veil tear.  I sincerely doubt they're going to force us to have a mage in the party every time we need to close a tear or deal with a demon in DA:I, nor will there just be a convenient mage NPC hanging around waiting for us to show up so they can close it, which means there should be an alternate method.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

TK514 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

So in the end, you have no real solution for when it will happen. It won't be that often, but you have no solution for when it will happen. You'll need mages.

Hence, your solution of killing all the mages as a safety measure doesn't actually solve the problem.

The existence of DA:I, where you have freedom of both character creation and party makeup, strongly suggests you will not need a mage to close a Veil tear.  I sincerely doubt they're going to force us to have a mage in the party every time we need to close a tear or deal with a demon in DA:I, nor will there just be a convenient mage NPC hanging around waiting for us to show up so they can close it, which means there should be an alternate method.

Having a mage was never a requirement for dealing with demons, it's just helpful in a way that Komandor Shepard refuses to see for the purpose of his arguments. As for closing the Veil Tears, the usual routes for that are having either a Spirit or a Mage handle it. I suppose if the Tears are powered by mechanisms controlled by demons like the ones in Awakening were that can solve the problem, but most of the ones we've seen aren't.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 02 février 2014 - 05:49 .

[The Baconer]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
What mages are we talking about?

They would be rounded up and killed long before mastering magic.
The few that escape (and there will always be a few that do) will be like apostates are now.
Of course, with no Circlesto take care of, you'd have a lot more templars patrolling about, thus making life for apostates even harder.

You don't need to have a mastery of magic to rend the veil and summon demons.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Baconer wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
What mages are we talking about?

They would be rounded up and killed long before mastering magic.
The few that escape (and there will always be a few that do) will be like apostates are now.
Of course, with no Circlesto take care of, you'd have a lot more templars patrolling about, thus making life for apostates even harder.

You don't need to have a mastery of magic to rend the veil and summon demons.

The Chantry in fact believes that mastery of magic makes one less likely to do so accidentally.

[KaiserShep]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
What mages are we talking about?

They would be rounded up and killed long before mastering magic.
The few that escape (and there will always be a few that do) will be like apostates are now.
Of course, with no Circlesto take care of, you'd have a lot more templars patrolling about, thus making life for apostates even harder.

Or rather, make life for everyone harder. The problem with this idea is that it relies on the false assumption that simply cracking down on and exterminating mages before they come to an age at which their magical talents manifest would have no effect on the rest of the population. Laws that involve the systematic extermination of people who have committed no crime other than some inherited trait will inevitably be met with growing resistance. There's only so much any organization can get away with before they have to deal with everyone, not just mages, and you can't kill them all. The templars' power must also rely on the people's faith in the order. Without it, they lose their foothold and ultimately fail.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 03 février 2014 - 04:46 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Baconer wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
What mages are we talking about?

They would be rounded up and killed long before mastering magic.
The few that escape (and there will always be a few that do) will be like apostates are now.
Of course, with no Circlesto take care of, you'd have a lot more templars patrolling about, thus making life for apostates even harder.

You don't need to have a mastery of magic to rend the veil and summon demons.

Well technicly, if you suck and get possesed then that is true, given that it's the demon that does the veil tearing then.

If you are a mage with no magical training you wouldn't even know how to throw simple spells.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KaiserShep wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
What mages are we talking about?

They would be rounded up and killed long before mastering magic.
The few that escape (and there will always be a few that do) will be like apostates are now.
Of course, with no Circlesto take care of, you'd have a lot more templars patrolling about, thus making life for apostates even harder.

Or rather, make life for everyone harder. The problem with this idea is that it relies on the false assumption that simply cracking down on and exterminating mages before they come to an age at which their magical talents manifest would have no effect on the rest of the population. Laws that involve the systematic extermination of people who have committed no crime other than some inherited trait will inevitably be met with growing resistance. There's only so much any organization can get away with before they have to deal with everyone, not just mages, and you can't kill them all. The templars' power must also rely on the people's faith in the order. Without it, they lose their foothold and ultimately fail.

No. As soon as they manifest. There's no point in doing anything before, otherwise, you'd be killign non-mages together with mages.

And there will always be resistance to anything. The trick is to manage that resistance trough variosu means, and keep it small enough.
Quite a few leaders trought history got away with many things that way. Especially given that in medieval times it would be a lto easier to get away with it.

[SgtSteel91]

So at what point does it bleed over to killing entire families who have had mages in them just to get rid of the "mage gene"?

[KaiserShep]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

So at what point does it bleed over to killing entire families who have had mages in them just to get rid of the "mage gene"?

Who needs entire families anyway? Save the world, one slaughtered household at a time.

[TheKomandorShepard]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

So at what point does it bleed over to killing entire families who have had mages in them just to get rid of the "mage gene"?

It don't rly work that way even if you never had mage in your family before you have mage son and if you had many mages you can have non-mage children check even leandra amell with malcolm hawke (mage) can have 2 non-mages as children and only 1 mage. If you would start kill everyone in the world who would support you everyone would be against you because no one want to die...
But mages are seen as freaks peoples won't stand for them and die for them they are different thats enough 

Gosh just love when peoples exaggerate as i would want kill everyone in the world and could do that comparing to small ,dangerous and not very liked minority

[KaiserShep]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And there will always be resistance to anything. The trick is to manage that resistance trough variosu means, and keep it small enough.

Various means can mean anything, but there's no way around simple abduction. There's no way to keep it small, provided the plan is to cull the mage population. The real trick, as I see it, is convincing everyone into believing that this is somehow good for everyone. What would these various means entail? 

Quite a few leaders trought history got away with many things that way. Especially given that in medieval times it would be a lto easier to get away with it.

I wonder if Pol Pot thought similarly. I am curious as to which leaders come to mind when this argument is made, though, because without an example to put into context, it doesn't really mean anything. Who got away with what, and for how long? 

The bottom line is that any plan that involves the systematic extermination of a percentage of the population of your own country on the basis of some hereditary trait is doomed to failure. There's just no way for this plan to work.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 03 février 2014 - 02:26 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

KaiserShep wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And there will always be resistance to anything. The trick is to manage that resistance trough variosu means, and keep it small enough.

Various means can mean anything, but there's no way around simple abduction. There's no way to keep it small, provided the plan is to cull the mage population. The real trick, as I see it, is convincing everyone into believing that this is somehow good for everyone. What would these various means entail?

Well, the mage population IS small.

And every single means used trought human history.
Best one being education (aka brainwashing)

I wonder if Pol Pot thought similarly. I am curious as to which leaders come to mind when this argument is made, though, because without an example to put into context, it doesn't really mean anything. There's been so many, and genocidal despots don't always have the best endings for their respective regimes.

Every governemnt uses such methods to some degree.
And the genocidal despots show just how far you can push it - if they can, for generations, opress a large part of the population wihout credible resistance, then what chance does the tiny mage population have?

The bottom line is that any plan that involves the systematic extermination of a percentage of the population of your own country on the basis of some hereditary trait is doomed to failure. There's just no way for this plan to work.

Oh? It would.
History proves me right.

Did anyone stop Stalin when he killed millions?
Seen Noth Korea and their "glorious leader"?

One can hold an entire nation under his dominion if the conditions are right.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
What mages are we talking about?

They would be rounded up and killed long before mastering magic.
The few that escape (and there will always be a few that do) will be like apostates are now.
Of course, with no Circlesto take care of, you'd have a lot more templars patrolling about, thus making life for apostates even harder.

You don't need to have a mastery of magic to rend the veil and summon demons.

Well technicly, if you suck and get possesed then that is true, given that it's the demon that does the veil tearing then.

If you are a mage with no magical training you wouldn't even know how to throw simple spells.

That can be worse. I'm given to understand that mages invariably manifest their magic, and that the ones who do so without training A: have completely unpredictable powers and B: are driven insane by them. 

[Mistress9Nine]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Oh? It would.
History proves me right.

Did anyone stop Stalin when he killed millions?
Seen Noth Korea and their "glorious leader"?

One can hold an entire nation under his dominion if the conditions are right.

Yet the things you mention were never worldwide. As long as those that are prosecuted have a refuge, people are more likely to consider it the internal problem of a country. And never has the country really benefitted from this, it always led to its evental downfall. Especially when the nations where the refugees seek shelter benefit from this. Imagine how greatful the Imperium would be if all the sudden it was floodded with refugee mages bitter about their treatment in other countries. And not just mages, families who know they arry the gene would likely leave as well if they don't want to be mocked ad branded and possibly executed.

Modifié par Mistress9Nine, 03 février 2014 - 02:43 .

[KaiserShep]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Well, the mage population IS small.

And every single means used trought human history.
Best one being education (aka brainwashing)

So basically, creating a cult. Sounds great. <_<

Every governemnt uses such methods to some degree.

To what capacity? Any examples come to mind? 

And the genocidal despots show just how far you can push it - if they can, for generations, opress a large part of the population wihout credible resistance, then what chance does the tiny mage population have?

For generations? No. A few decades perhaps, but certainly not over the span of a few lifetimes.

Oh? It would.
History proves me right.

Did anyone stop Stalin when he killed millions?
Seen Noth Korea and their "glorious leader"?

One can hold an entire nation under his dominion if the conditions are right.

So now Stalin and Kim Jong-Il are examples of how to successfully run a country? What were their successes? What grand legacy did those two jamokes leave behind?

Modifié par KaiserShep, 03 février 2014 - 02:50 .