956 réponses à ce sujet

[Kurremurre]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

They don't have represent same fact they were ready to beg for death instead being zombie makes it clear

I (thought it was obvious that I) meant "represent" in the scientific sense. The reaction of two people cannot automatically be extrapolated to be the reaction of everyone. So no, it does not "make it clear".

Modifié par Kurremurre, 29 décembre 2013 - 01:47 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Magdalena11 wrote...

Imposing tranquility on an unwilling mage would be similar to rape because it is imposing your will to violate and inflict harm on another person.  Rape is a crime of violence, not sex.  Sadism is deriving satisfaction from inflicting harm on others.  I think the analogy is valid.

Tranquility is also supposed to be a punititve tool. If a mage is willing to undergo the Rite so much the better, but when the mage in question poses an active threat to everyone around him, you cannot wait for his permission or willingness to handle the situation.
Tranquility is NOT an act of sadism (well usually anyway.. I imagine Arik did take some pleasure from it). It is simply a tool to negate threats, which allows the one who undergoes the Rite to remain a productive member of society, instead of ending up as manure for the fields. The Templars do not perform the Rite to be cruel to the mages, but as a means of control and threat management.

You can then argue which is worse, death or tranquility, but that is a philosophical debate for an entire thread of its own.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Kurremurre wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

They don't have represent same fact they were ready to beg for death instead being zombie makes it clear

I (thought it was obvious that I) meant "represent" in the scientific sense. The reaction of two people cannot automatically be extrapolated to be the reaction of everyone. So no, it does not "make it clear".

Well how many peoples i need to state being buried alive forever is fate worse than death?
If you want more examples that we have also weren't but think about that as fate worse than death but they wren't so well still.

[Kurremurre]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Kurremurre wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

They don't have represent same fact they were ready to beg for death instead being zombie makes it clear

I (thought it was obvious that I) meant "represent" in the scientific sense. The reaction of two people cannot automatically be extrapolated to be the reaction of everyone. So no, it does not "make it clear".

Well how many peoples i need to state being buried alive forever is fate worse than death?
If you want more examples that we have also weren't but think about that as fate worse than death but they wren't so well still.

Being buried alive forever is hardly analogous to Tranquility, and I will be sad if I actually have to tell you why.

And seriously, just consider using punctuation. It's really hard to understand what you're saying sometimes.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Kurremurre wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Kurremurre wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

They don't have represent same fact they were ready to beg for death instead being zombie makes it clear

I (thought it was obvious that I) meant "represent" in the scientific sense. The reaction of two people cannot automatically be extrapolated to be the reaction of everyone. So no, it does not "make it clear".

Well how many peoples i need to state being buried alive forever is fate worse than death?
If you want more examples that we have also weren't but think about that as fate worse than death but they wren't so well still.

Being buried alive forever is hardly analogous to Tranquility, and I will be sad if I actually have to tell you why.

And seriously, just consider using punctuation. It's really hard to understand what you're saying sometimes.

No i thought that you don't know what being tranquil means now you know that you can compare?
Both fates would be sufficient to beg for death.

[Kurremurre]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Kurremurre wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Kurremurre wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

They don't have represent same fact they were ready to beg for death instead being zombie makes it clear

I (thought it was obvious that I) meant "represent" in the scientific sense. The reaction of two people cannot automatically be extrapolated to be the reaction of everyone. So no, it does not "make it clear".

Well how many peoples i need to state being buried alive forever is fate worse than death?
If you want more examples that we have also weren't but think about that as fate worse than death but they wren't so well still.

Being buried alive forever is hardly analogous to Tranquility, and I will be sad if I actually have to tell you why.

And seriously, just consider using punctuation. It's really hard to understand what you're saying sometimes.

No i thought that you don't know what being tranquil means now you know that you can compare?
Both fates would be sufficient to beg for death.

*sigh*

The first, most important distinction, is that we can indeed imagine what it's like to be buried alive - suffocation, darkness and confinement all in one - but I don't suppose any one of us knows what it's like to be without emotion or dreams. Obviously, Tranquils are not confined in any similar fashion, nor do they suffocate. Perhaps there is some analogue to the darkness - what do I know - but then, perhaps there's not.

Second, even Tranquils die, so I can only view your addition of "forever" as a stupid one for dramatic effect.

Of course, in the end, if someone really were to sincerely prefer a living burial to death - however incomprehensible we might think it sounds - then who's to say that they're better off dead?

[Vilegrim]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Gregolian wrote...

This is one of those cases where there is such a long standing... "issue" between the two groups (Mages and Chantry) where one group (the Chantry) uses another group to keep down the first that, it seems like compromise would be almost impossible.

The only REAL option there is is to have mages live in areas LIKE an elven Alienage just with a little more space and allowance to move around the town they are in with the Templars mixed in with the city guard the way you see Navy Corpsman and Navy SEAL Corpsman mixed in with Marines.

Because alienages worked very well...

and locking up and oppressing people who can set you on fire with a thought ended so well....

[TheKomandorShepard]

Kurremurre wrote...


*sigh*

The first, most important distinction, is that we can indeed imagine what it's like to be buried alive - suffocation, darkness and confinement all in one - but I don't suppose any one of us knows what it's like to be without emotion or dreams. Obviously, Tranquils are not confined in any similar fashion, nor do they suffocate. Perhaps there is some analogue to the darkness - what do I know - but then, perhaps there's not.

Second, even Tranquils die, so I can only view your addition of "forever" as a stupid one for dramatic effect.

Of course, in the end, if someone really were to sincerely prefer a living burial to death - however incomprehensible we might think it sounds - then who's to say that they're better off dead?

Well you can imagine both that depends on you.And since as i said peoples beged but here we go... 
dramatic effect nah both are fates worse than death so here we go..
Only retarded who choose that so here we go...

Vilegrim wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Gregolian wrote...

This
is one of those cases where there is such a long standing... "issue"
between the two groups (Mages and Chantry) where one group (the Chantry)
uses another group to keep down the first that, it seems like
compromise would be almost impossible.

The only REAL option there
is is to have mages live in areas LIKE an elven Alienage just with a
little more space and allowance to move around the town they are in with
the Templars mixed in with the city guard the way you see Navy Corpsman
and Navy SEAL Corpsman mixed in with Marines.

Because alienages worked very well...[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

and locking up and oppressing people who can set you on fire with a thought ended so well....

Well i never said that wokred it didn't thats why im for kill them all solution 

[Kurremurre]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Kurremurre wrote...


*sigh*

The first, most important distinction, is that we can indeed imagine what it's like to be buried alive - suffocation, darkness and confinement all in one - but I don't suppose any one of us knows what it's like to be without emotion or dreams. Obviously, Tranquils are not confined in any similar fashion, nor do they suffocate. Perhaps there is some analogue to the darkness - what do I know - but then, perhaps there's not.

Second, even Tranquils die, so I can only view your addition of "forever" as a stupid one for dramatic effect.

Of course, in the end, if someone really were to sincerely prefer a living burial to death - however incomprehensible we might think it sounds - then who's to say that they're better off dead?

Well you can imagine both that depends on you.And since as i said peoples beged but here we go... 
dramatic effect nah both are fates worse than death so here we go..
Only retarded who choose that so here we go...

Two people begged, yes. I have said time and time again that that is insufficient to make blanket statements such as yours.

And sure, both may be "fates worse than death", but that doesn't mean they're equal to each other. This can be illustrated very easily. Does one of the following sound worse to you?

1) Being buried alive forever
2) Being buried alive with flesh-eating maggots and a rapist forever

Whether someone is "retarded" for choosing a fate worse than death hardly changes anything.

Now what's with the "here we go" nonsense?

[Magdalena11]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Magdalena11 wrote...

Imposing tranquility on an unwilling mage would be similar to rape because it is imposing your will to violate and inflict harm on another person.  Rape is a crime of violence, not sex.  Sadism is deriving satisfaction from inflicting harm on others.  I think the analogy is valid.

Tranquility is also supposed to be a punititve tool. If a mage is willing to undergo the Rite so much the better, but when the mage in question poses an active threat to everyone around him, you cannot wait for his permission or willingness to handle the situation.
Tranquility is NOT an act of sadism (well usually anyway.. I imagine Arik did take some pleasure from it). It is simply a tool to negate threats, which allows the one who undergoes the Rite to remain a productive member of society, instead of ending up as manure for the fields. The Templars do not perform the Rite to be cruel to the mages, but as a means of control and threat management.

You can then argue which is worse, death or tranquility, but that is a philosophical debate for an entire thread of its own.

I'm sorry I was unclear.  I wish there was a word for a mage that has passed harrowing, which is what I meant.  I was talking about Ser Alrik's solution - where a harrowed mage is made tranquil simply to eliminate her magic not because she is at risk of iminent possession.  The practice of making an apprentice who's deemed too dangerous to undergo harrowing is a different matter entirely and not what the OP was about.

I think the heart of the matter is whether merely possessing magic = iminent possession by a demon.  Ser Alrik figured that since mages risk possession making them all tranquil, warranted or not, would solve the problem of possession.

To use a real-life example to illustrate my point:  A woman may develop breast cancer and this can kill her.  Bilateral mastectomy nearly eliminates the chance of breast cancer.  Some women know that they are at risk and elect to undergo the procedure on their own.  Would forcing all women to undergo it eliminate the danger and benefit them?

The analogy isn't perfect - I know that boobs don't explode and wipe out everyone around our hapless patient.  Removing them also doesn't turn the woman into an automaton.  My point is that I believe the cure is worse than the disease.

[Magdalena11]

Kurremurre wrote...

*snip*

And seriously, just consider using punctuation. It's really hard to understand what you're saying sometimes.

Now leave him alone.  He's gotten so much clearer lately I just appreciate the positive.  Many posters don't speak English at home and I certainly couldn't express myself in any other language.  I have trouble with English sometimes and it's all I speak.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Kurremurre wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Kurremurre wrote...


*sigh*

The first, most important distinction, is that we can indeed imagine what it's like to be buried alive - suffocation, darkness and confinement all in one - but I don't suppose any one of us knows what it's like to be without emotion or dreams. Obviously, Tranquils are not confined in any similar fashion, nor do they suffocate. Perhaps there is some analogue to the darkness - what do I know - but then, perhaps there's not.

Second, even Tranquils die, so I can only view your addition of "forever" as a stupid one for dramatic effect.

Of course, in the end, if someone really were to sincerely prefer a living burial to death - however incomprehensible we might think it sounds - then who's to say that they're better off dead?

Well you can imagine both that depends on you.And since as i said peoples beged but here we go... 
dramatic effect nah both are fates worse than death so here we go..
Only retarded who choose that so here we go...

Two people begged, yes. I have said time and time again that that is insufficient to make blanket statements such as yours.

And sure, both may be "fates worse than death", but that doesn't mean they're equal to each other. This can be illustrated very easily. Does one of the following sound worse to you?

1) Being buried alive forever
2) Being buried alive with flesh-eating maggots and a rapist forever

Whether someone is "retarded" for choosing a fate worse than death hardly changes anything.

Now what's with the "here we go" nonsense?

well lets see if you don't see problem with reatarded choices well lets say that your sanity have rly well problems and ultimately fate worse than death is still fate worse than death so well...

here we go (repeat something 100 times) that last time i wrote because i would be insane i i do that again without point saying that same over and over again.

[Kurremurre]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Kurremurre wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Kurremurre wrote...


*sigh*

The first, most important distinction, is that we can indeed imagine what it's like to be buried alive - suffocation, darkness and confinement all in one - but I don't suppose any one of us knows what it's like to be without emotion or dreams. Obviously, Tranquils are not confined in any similar fashion, nor do they suffocate. Perhaps there is some analogue to the darkness - what do I know - but then, perhaps there's not.

Second, even Tranquils die, so I can only view your addition of "forever" as a stupid one for dramatic effect.

Of course, in the end, if someone really were to sincerely prefer a living burial to death - however incomprehensible we might think it sounds - then who's to say that they're better off dead?

Well you can imagine both that depends on you.And since as i said peoples beged but here we go... 
dramatic effect nah both are fates worse than death so here we go..
Only retarded who choose that so here we go...

Two people begged, yes. I have said time and time again that that is insufficient to make blanket statements such as yours.

And sure, both may be "fates worse than death", but that doesn't mean they're equal to each other. This can be illustrated very easily. Does one of the following sound worse to you?

1) Being buried alive forever
2) Being buried alive with flesh-eating maggots and a rapist forever

Whether someone is "retarded" for choosing a fate worse than death hardly changes anything.

Now what's with the "here we go" nonsense?

well lets see if you don't see problem with reatarded choices well lets say that your sanity have rly well problems and ultimately fate worse than death is still fate worse than death so well...

here we go (repeat something 100 times) that last time i wrote because i would be insane i i do that again without point saying that same over and over again.

My entire point is that Tranquility isn't necessarily perceived as worse than death by everyone.

If I understand your second paragraph correctly, you're saying that someone - you or me, or both? - is repeating themselves without making any argument..?

Magdalena11 wrote...

Kurremurre wrote...

*snip*

And seriously, just consider using punctuation. It's really hard to understand what you're saying sometimes.

Now leave him alone.  He's gotten so much clearer lately I just appreciate the positive.  Many posters don't speak English at home and I certainly couldn't express myself in any other language.  I have trouble with English sometimes and it's all I speak.

"Leave him alone"? Was I bullying him or something? I was pointing out a legitimate difficulty in maintaining this discussion. Furthermore, being able to express yourself so that you're understood - not necessarily with perfect or even good grammar or spelling - should be expected on an English forum, and adding commas or full stops here and there isn't a difficult concept to grasp - neglecting it is just laziness. Now, if he has indeed made improvements recently, then I can only applaud that, but the fact remains that I can't understand some things he says.

For the record, I'm not a native English speaker myself.

Modifié par Kurremurre, 29 décembre 2013 - 03:10 .

[Lord Raijin]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I have yet to see a single bandit destroy an entire town on his own.

Loghain Mac Tir started a civil war, hired an escaped blood mage to kill Arl Eamon, allowed slavery to occur in his city, kidnapped a templar who was doing nothing more than to do what he was suppose to do, Betrayed his king and the Grey wardens, and had both leaders (King Cailan and Duncan) killed because he did not play his part in the battle. He frames the Grey wardens and put out a bounty against them. 

It's safe to say that Logain is far worst than a single bandit, and he caused far more damage then just an entire town. Instead of working together with the Grey wardens he fought against them thus prolonged the Blight. That means more deaths and slaughter.

Loghain is not a mage but a mundane.

Yeah I remember now. Loghain worked ENTIRELY on his own, he certainly did not have THOUSANDS of followers and hencmen, all willing to do is bidding. Nope... Loghain Mac Tir singlehandedly fought the entirety of the Bannorns forces in the Ferelden Civil War, and won! Indeed Loghain Mac Tir is the single most powerful mundane to have ever existed..........................

Now... Can you please stop disproving yourself in the very first sentece? I said ALONE, and you in yout first sentence mention Loghain hiring others, effectively making him NOT alone........

Of course Loghain had a huge following... and he knew it too. He went from being just a peasant to being a Teyrn. After betraying his king he became a Regent.  He manipulated his followers to contuine on with his venomous rampage against Ferelden. Hes no better than a blood mage who use magic to control peoples mind.

[Kurremurre]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Of course Loghain had a huge following... and he knew it too. He went from being just a peasant to being a Teyrn. After betraying his king he became a Regent.  He manipulated his followers to contuine on with his venomous rampage against Ferelden. Hes no better than a blood mage who use magic to control peoples mind.

That speaks only of Loghain's character. It far from proves that regular peasants or bandits are as great potential threats as mages.

Also, I would have to disagree. He may have manipulated people, but at least they chose to listen to him and follow him. Actual mind control is some of the most heinous evil imaginable.

[Master Warder Z_]

 I advocated for the idea back in DA 2 as perhaps the only method that would have prevented the coming war.

But that said? I have no objection to it being used as a controll method on the majority of mages, no.

[Eternal Phoenix]

[quote]101ezylonhxeT wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]101ezylonhxeT wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]101ezylonhxeT wrote...

If bioware were to do this it would mean we can't play as mages anymore and not being able to play as a mage is a deal breaker for me because the other 2 classess are 100% boring.

[/quote]
A bit of a premature blanket statement since you havn't played any future DA games, no?

[/quote]

Any future DA game without mages or I am unable to play as a mage = boring game and not worth my time to play.

[/quote]
You just did it again..

[/quote]

Ok hypothetically if Bioware were to do this i wouldn't buy DA4.

[/quote]

LOLwut? It would be based on player choice and it wouldn't reach all mages. Even if it did then it would be limited to your world where you made that choice.

[quote]Nefla wrote...

It will be one of 3 choices: 

-merge all life with demons and everyone becomes an abomination against their will ( inquisitor has to die)
-inquisitor's personality is used as a template for an ultra mega demon that controls all the others (inquisitor has to die)
-kill all demons but all mages randomly become tranquil (inquisitor lives for 1 second if you play multiplayer)[/quote]

Where did you get this information from? Damn! Now I have to think of new endings to send to Bioware!

[quote]TheKomandorShepard wrote...

[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...

I think most of us templar supporters are joking. At least I am when I say "burn all mages!" and I actually want a circle system back but one that's fairer on mages.

And TheKomandorShepard, it's not sadism since it did serve a purpose. Maybe some of the templars in Kirkwall were sadists but then so were many of the free mages who were also blood mages.[/quote]

It is sadism because it doesn't serve a purpose killing mages is less di*** quicker and less expensive than that solution so only reason behind this is deliver individual fate worse than dead so person who want to do that have serious issues.  

[/quote]

Think about it. Not all templars want to kill those who fail their test and the tranquil solution was invented so that they might still live even if devoid of emotion. Kurremurre also made some good points you ignored. But okay, you think it's rape. Whatever. It's an evil thing. We agree on that. This thread isn't about advocating it or even defending it, I'm simply proposing what the consequences could be and I think that's an interesting discussion.

[quote]Magdalena11 wrote...

[quote]TheKomandorShepard wrote...

[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...

Well it's not mind rape either unless this is your definition of it.

That's the first time I've ever heard someone liken tranquility to rape. It's an evil thing but it's neither sadism nor sexual.[/quote]

Well it is sadism that serves no other purpose than kick dogs something i will rape your wife and then burn her i could kill her immediately but nah im screwd up so i will choose option that gives more suffering with smiliar effect.  

[/quote]

Imposing tranquility on an unwilling mage would be similar to rape because it is imposing your will to violate and inflict harm on another person.  Rape is a crime of violence, not sex.  Sadism is deriving satisfaction from inflicting harm on others.  I think the analogy is valid.

@TheKomandorShepherd - Your posts have become much easier to read and you're making your points much more clearly.  Well done!

[/quote]

But what templar derived pleasure from making a mage tranquil? Again I'm not arguing it's a good thing, your taking away personal will, reason and emotion but I don't see how it can be sadism when not many templars enjoy doing it if DA:O is anything to go by.

[quote]Emrys Ansgar wrote...

I think most people in this thread are forgetting just how large of a role mages played betting the Qunari and without mages how quickly Thedas would fall to the Qun.[/quote]

Not many are supporting it. Remember there are personal opinions and role-playing ones.  Sending out this order as the Inquisitor would clearly make for some interesting consequences and ones I would like to see in a play-through as a ruthless character who absolutely hates all mages. No one said anything about it being the "go to choice" because it's clearly the worst solution but also one of the few which would have a world-wide impact which could lead to interesting ramifications.

Of course I don't see Bioware putting in such a choice and even if they did it wouldn't reach every mage. But hypothetically it asks what would happen to the world.

But I think Thedas would survive without mages against the qunari especially if they united. In fact it was the alliance of the Andrastian Chantry with the Imperium Chantry that really turned the tables on the qunari. Mages helped but I reckon the war would have been won without them.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 29 décembre 2013 - 11:42 .

[Magdalena11]

Regarding the thought that templars aren't sadists and derive no pleasure from making mages tranquil: Sorry, I thought we were still talking about the Tranquil Solution. Ser Alrik was a sadist. I believe a large part of his plan was driven by personal satisfaction. My point (however poorly put) was that if his plan was implemented many other templars would discover the personal perks of making all mages tranquil.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Magdalena11 wrote...

Regarding the thought that templars aren't sadists and derive no pleasure from making mages tranquil: Sorry, I thought we were still talking about the Tranquil Solution. Ser Alrik was a sadist. I believe a large part of his plan was driven by personal satisfaction. My point (however poorly put) was that if his plan was implemented many other templars would discover the personal perks of making all mages tranquil.

I think most other Templars would be appalled and summarily execute or at least expel Alrik.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Magdalena11 wrote...

Regarding the thought that templars aren't sadists and derive no pleasure from making mages tranquil: Sorry, I thought we were still talking about the Tranquil Solution. Ser Alrik was a sadist. I believe a large part of his plan was driven by personal satisfaction. My point (however poorly put) was that if his plan was implemented many other templars would discover the personal perks of making all mages tranquil.

I think most other Templars would be appalled and summarily execute or at least expel Alrik.

I think most would as well....but Meredth didn't expel him, and Cullen says there's an argument in favor of the Tranquil Solution, and doesn't seem to oppose it.

It suffices that Meredith rejected it.

What doesn't suffice is that Meredith didn't investigate Alrik as it became apparent there were more and more tranquil mages who would need hers AND Orsino's approval to be made.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Magdalena11 wrote...

Regarding the thought that templars aren't sadists and derive no pleasure from making mages tranquil: Sorry, I thought we were still talking about the Tranquil Solution. Ser Alrik was a sadist. I believe a large part of his plan was driven by personal satisfaction. My point (however poorly put) was that if his plan was implemented many other templars would discover the personal perks of making all mages tranquil.

I think most other Templars would be appalled and summarily execute or at least expel Alrik.

I think most would as well....but Meredth didn't expel him, and Cullen says there's an argument in favor of the Tranquil Solution, and doesn't seem to oppose it.

It suffices that Meredith rejected it.

What doesn't suffice is that Meredith didn't investigate Alrik as it became apparent there were more and more tranquil mages who would need hers AND Orsino's approval to be made.

Well, Alrik's plan was never implemented. It seems rather harsh to expel a person because of a mere suggestion made. No matter how extreme that suggestion might be.

And I adress the point of the icnreased numbers of Tranquil in the other thread.

Do you ever feel like we are just having a conversation while sitting at a table, then all of a sudden we have to stand up and rush to the next table, only to sit down and continue the same discussion?

[dragonflight288]

Do you ever feel like we are just having a conversation while sitting at a table, then all of a sudden we have to stand up and rush to the next table, only to sit down and continue the same discussion?

Yeah, I kind of get that impression....right....moving on. I'll respond further when I can think of something we're not saying in another thread...probably after a good night's rest as I now have a desk job in the carpet cleaning business, and I feel like it's sucking out my soul and slowing my wits.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Do you ever feel like we are just having a conversation while sitting at a table, then all of a sudden we have to stand up and rush to the next table, only to sit down and continue the same discussion?

Yeah, I kind of get that impression....right....moving on. I'll respond further when I can think of something we're not saying in another thread...probably after a good night's rest as I now have a desk job in the carpet cleaning business, and I feel like it's sucking out my soul and slowing my wits.

Heh.. No argument here... 

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Do you ever feel like we are just having a conversation while sitting at a table, then all of a sudden we have to stand up and rush to the next table, only to sit down and continue the same discussion?

Yeah, I kind of get that impression....right....moving on. I'll respond further when I can think of something we're not saying in another thread...probably after a good night's rest as I now have a desk job in the carpet cleaning business, and I feel like it's sucking out my soul and slowing my wits.

Heh.. No argument here... 

Now I have this totally off-topic picture stuck in my head.

data:image/jpeg;base64,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

Hey, I think I found the Dragon Ages new mascot. :innocent:

[Grieving Natashina]

Just wanted to pop in here. My thought on what Tranquility is like can be summed up here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy

This is from wiki.

"The lobotomy procedure can have severe negative effects on a patient's personality and ability to function independently.[127] Lobotomy patients often show a marked reduction in initiative and inhibition.[128] They may also exhibit difficulty putting themselves in the position of others because of decreased cognition and detachment from society."

When I think of the Tranquil, that's what comes to mind. At the time that lobotomy was heavily in practice, many in the medical community thought that was the best cure for things such as manic-depression and other psychological issues. Many of those issues have been explored further and can now be treated with the correct drugs. Lobotomy is almost never used to treat mental patients anymore.

I'll admit, I don't have an alternative to Tranquility. However, I liked what Wynne was doing prior to her sacrifice. We need to refocus our education about magic in general, and those that have been made unfairly tranquil should have access to a cure. I think with more time, an alternative can be found other than just "Welp, kiss your dreams and emotions g'bye chum! Hope you're in a good circle, because some Templars may use you as a punching bag or worse!"

My two coppers.