225 réponses à ce sujet

[Evil]

Zero132132 wrote...

To me, that the 'right' way to play a duration infiltrator is to almost never cloak for the full duration implies that it really can't be all that useful the majority of any given match. Damage is useful whenever you're not dead and there are enemies left to fight.

Basically, it kind of sounds like playing a duration infiltrator the "right" way is, in most situations, a less killtacular version of a damage infiltrator.

Indeed.  That avoiding excessive aggro dump for your team-mates sake forces you to use the full duration only rarely, reducing that evo's usefulness, is my main gripe with it as well.

It's one of those options where it's of minimal benefit 90% of the time.

That 10% of the time where it helps you rescue a bad situation without burning consumables partially makes up for it however.

The duration infiltrators do end up being a less killtacular version of a damage infiltrator, in my hands at least, but they're a less killtacular version of a damage infiltrator with a "get out of jail free card" up their sleeve.

I just wish the "card" was useful more often...

[IllusiveManJr]

Any popcorn worthy comments this thread? Or is BSN behaving itself...

[Alien Number Six]

Sorry I disagree. A few more seconds on cloak is not as useful as 40% extra damage. Also you can use your cloak in many ways that you describe without duration.

[The Last]

The only way to really appreciate the skills is to be in situations where one would have been preferred over the other. The duration spec still has a damage bonus, and the damage spec still has a brief cloaking ability.

Since everyone experiences matches differently and have different playstyles, this argument won't really go anywhere.

[BridgeBurner]

Hey guys there's this really cool trick I discovered which makes being invisible pretty pointless...

You stand near some cover, so that the cover is hiding the left side of your body, I totally found out that you can shoot past without the enemies being able to shoot back! Who would have thought?

[stealth_202]

Alien Number Six wrote...

Sorry I disagree. A few more seconds on cloak is not as useful as 40% extra damage. Also you can use your cloak in many ways that you describe without duration.

TC 4b 40% bonus is additive to base damage.
The real number is about 17% if you put on top level consumables, and 23% if you don't.

Edit:
Anyone who use shotguns on GI is a scrub because he lose 25% damage compared to using it on AIU. The same for AR. You should use it only on TGI. Damage loss for AR on GI is terrible.

Modifié par stealth_202, 01 janvier 2014 - 10:08 .

[Alien Number Six]

stealth_202 wrote...

Alien Number Six wrote...

Sorry I disagree. A few more seconds on cloak is not as useful as 40% extra damage. Also you can use your cloak in many ways that you describe without duration.

TC 4b 40% bonus is additive to base damage.
The real number is about 17% if you put on top level consumables, and 23% if you don't.

Regardless I use a sniper rifle most of the time and the extra damage is more useful period. Why spec into a few seconds more cloaking time when I can have more damage. If duration made your cloak better it would be worth taking but it dosen't. Cloaking plus damage is better then more cloaking time. It is a best of both worlds situation.

[BridgeBurner]

stealth_202 wrote...

Alien Number Six wrote...

Sorry I disagree. A few more seconds on cloak is not as useful as 40% extra damage. Also you can use your cloak in many ways that you describe without duration.

TC 4b 40% bonus is additive to base damage.
The real number is about 17% if you put on top level consumables, and 23% if you don't.

Edit:
Anyone who use shotguns on GI is a scrub because he lose 25% damage compared to using it on AIU. The same for AR. You should use it only on TGI. Damage loss for AR on GI is terrible.

Your maths is flawed. Additive damage bonuses provide the stated % boost that they provide, multiplicative bonuses affect the whole.

If your sniper hits for 1000 damage, an 80% additive bonus gives 800 extra damage, regardless of how many other bonuses you have. Stacking consumables for another 45% means you now have 125% extra damage, or 225% of base. Yes, the additive bonus "works out" as being less that the stated % of your "total damage" but what % of your total damage the bonus itself constitutes (after all bonuses and multipliers are applied) is irrelephant, as the additive bonus still gives the stated % of actual damage increase.

Multiplicative bonuses like debuffs and cloak SR bonus from rank 6 actually increase how effective your additive bonuses are, meaning instead of 80%, you actually in effect get more as the base damage is "raised" in the case of the SR bonus, or simply multilpied by an additional multiplier (1.2* in the case of proxy mine).

While it may look like X consumable if you stack bonuses past 1.0 only gives X % of your total damage, the reality is it increases it by the correct amount in terms of actual damage points, but is misleading as it looks like overall its a lower % of the total damage than it should be.

Would only bother about that in the case of powers, as powers tend to start off with very low damage and have multiple evolutions and bonuses which increase their damage. Weapons however do the same damage regardless of evolutions, so considering additive bonuses less important for weapons is a real bad idea, but can be argued for in the case of powers.

Modifié par Annomander, 01 janvier 2014 - 10:39 .

[Cirvante]

Annomander wrote...

Hey guys there's this really cool trick I discovered which makes being invisible pretty pointless...

You stand near some cover, so that the cover is hiding the left side of your body, I totally found out that you can shoot past without the enemies being able to shoot back! Who would have thought?

What is this madness you speak of, Annomander?

We both know that a duration cloak infiltrator is the only kit with any hope of survival in this game. Any other character gets gunned down within seconds and the duration infiltrator is the only one who can revive them. It's the reason why I play my damage cloak GI without cyclonics in pugs, after realizing that I have no hope of survival without those five extra seconds of cloak, I have given up trying. Now I'm just waiting for that reset card. 

[cato potato]

stealth_202 wrote...

Alien Number Six wrote...

Sorry I disagree. A few more seconds on cloak is not as useful as 40% extra damage. Also you can use your cloak in many ways that you describe without duration.

TC 4b 40% bonus is additive to base damage.
The real number is about 17% if you put on top level consumables, and 23% if you don't.

Edit:
Anyone who use shotguns on GI is a scrub because he lose 25% damage compared to using it on AIU. The same for AR. You should use it only on TGI. Damage loss for AR on GI is terrible.

Thats odd. Because this max damage build for a shotgun GI only does about 8% less damage than this max damage build for a shotgun AIU. Seems like a negligible loss to me, plus the GI has a more accurate shotgun and a wallhack without having to use up a gear slot.

The really scrubby thing is telling people how they should play their game and insulting them if they decide to play it their way instead.

[Tokenusername]

Annomander wrote...

Hey guys there's this really cool trick I discovered which makes being invisible pretty pointless...

You stand near some cover, so that the cover is hiding the left side of your entire body, I totally found out that you can shoot past without the enemies being able to shoot back! Who would have thought?

L2RHA

[BridgeBurner]

cato_84 wrote...

stealth_202 wrote...

Alien Number Six wrote...

Sorry I disagree. A few more seconds on cloak is not as useful as 40% extra damage. Also you can use your cloak in many ways that you describe without duration.

TC 4b 40% bonus is additive to base damage.
The real number is about 17% if you put on top level consumables, and 23% if you don't.

Edit:
Anyone who use shotguns on GI is a scrub because he lose 25% damage compared to using it on AIU. The same for AR. You should use it only on TGI. Damage loss for AR on GI is terrible.

Thats odd. Because this max damage build for a shotgun GI only does about 8% less damage than this max damage build for a shotgun AIU. Seems like a negligible loss to me, plus the GI has a more accurate shotgun and a wallhack without having to use up a gear slot.

The really scrubby thing is telling people how they should play their game and insulting them if they decide to play it their way instead.

The REALLY scrubby thing is that he didn't recognise the fact that accuracy bonuses provide an absolutely invaluable increase in ACTUAL damage output which simply cannot be measured using numbers.

An AIU raider for instance, will not deal the same damage that the GI can except at almost point blank range, as even close to mid, shotguns which are not the wraith, crusader etc will miss pellets, while the GI's spread being tighter will push his damage significantly higher.

Also has a higher likelihood of OHKs due to being able to concentrate more pellets into the enemy head...

Accuracy is severely underrated as a DPS stat.

[Gornok]

I understand what you are trying to say, and it is a valid argument or rather choice...

but it also depends on your gameplay and strategy in which you employ.. and with the style which I use, damage is greater than duration.

[Sinapus]

My strategy is knowing How Not To Be Seen. So duration works for me.
I'm also not sure about the "dump aggro" claims since there apparently isn't an "aggro" function and when I play an engineer I tend to not die as much, mostly because I'm staying out of line of sight and only popping into view to overload, incinerate or deploy a combat drone in the middle of some enemies. (For some reason, Phantoms do get distracted by the drone, so I guess they're not considered a melee class.)
Lot of the people I see dying do so because they stand in open areas where crossfires can happen. A cloaked or uncloaked teammate isn't going to change that much. It just makes it easier to break contact and avoid getting spotted.

Duration cloaks works great for me since it lets me stay undetected long enough to ambush an enemy, get out of trouble or turn the tables. Damage isn't a consideration for me, though it's nice for that initial attack.

[SubtlePilgrim]

Damage is better.

[SixDN9nE]

I read the title and I sh*t you not, chuckled, and then started telling my brother that someone was trolling BSN talking about duration > damage cloak. About halfway through giggle-reading the OP aloud (so my brother could join me in a laugh), we realized that THIS. WAS. SERIOUS.

Now I'm just kind of confused.

Also, no. No to all of it.

[Kislitsin]

Annomander wrote...

The REALLY scrubby thing is that he didn't recognise the fact that accuracy bonuses provide an absolutely invaluable increase in ACTUAL damage output which simply cannot be measured using numbers.

An AIU raider for instance, will not deal the same damage that the GI can except at almost point blank range, as even close to mid, shotguns which are not the wraith, crusader etc will miss pellets, while the GI's spread being tighter will push his damage significantly higher.

Also has a higher likelihood of OHKs due to being able to concentrate more pellets into the enemy head...

Accuracy is severely underrated as a DPS stat.

QFT, also the reason why N7 and Turian are first and second best broophoon users after GI, and TGI can barely hold a handle to them on practice, despite all calculated damage

RoF bonus is also underated for shooties.

[Titus Thongger]

I get duration on some infiltrators in pug games on the off chance I get a obnoxiously placed 1234 wave 10 objective on jade, goddess or hydra

[LemurFromTheId]

Annomander wrote...

Accuracy is severely underrated as a DPS stat.

I couldn't agree more.

[Moofy76]

I used to think duration would be better. Well its utility over flat out damage. If you think you need or more than 5.X seconds are more useful than damage then take duration. I don't agree that competitiveness means nothing in PvE, it does but it doesn't mean everything.

To me the duration isn't as good most oOf youf the time. The main times i can think it's good is for the deactivate objectives (if you do it), and running a long distance through enemies. Note also the longer you are cloaked the more time you are making the enemies track 1 less player, and the longer the cooldown. Longer duartion also has more value on random groups.

If you are cloaking and damaging asap then damage is generally better.

p.s. gotta love some of the immature minded trolls posting that think that damage is always better and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. Damage isn't always better, but generally I think it is.

Modifié par Moofy76, 02 janvier 2014 - 10:03 .

[stealth_202]

Annomander wrote...

The REALLY scrubby thing is that he didn't recognise the fact that accuracy bonuses provide an absolutely invaluable increase in ACTUAL damage output which simply cannot be measured using numbers.

An AIU raider for instance, will not deal the same damage that the GI can except at almost point blank range, as even close to mid, shotguns which are not the wraith, crusader etc will miss pellets, while the GI's spread being tighter will push his damage significantly higher.

Also has a higher likelihood of OHKs due to being able to concentrate more pellets into the enemy head...

Accuracy is severely underrated as a DPS stat.

Then, survivability is a DPS stat too. TGI/AIU wins here for 9/10 players.

And if damage is everything for someone, why not take Reegar every game? Using some other weapon is a DPS loss.

[Dr. Tim Whatley]

Moofy76 wrote...

p.s. gotta love some of the immature minded trolls posting that think that damage is always better and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. Damage isn't always better, but generally I think it is.

Damage is always the better option, but there's nothing wrong with being more comfortable with duration.

[Fortack]

stealth_202 wrote...

Then, survivability is a DPS stat too. TGI/AIU wins here for 9/10 players.

And if damage is everything for someone, why not take Reegar every game? Using some other weapon is a DPS loss.

DPS is quite meaningless actually. The time required to kill X enemies is what truly matters, and that is something you cannot measure by looking at DPS stats alone. For example, someone who fires the Javelin at something but leaves the target with a sliver of health has to (reload and) fire another shot which means the theoretical DPS is almost cut in half.

DPS is also not that relevant for survivability. Weapons that can OHK enemies; or stagger enemies; or do not require its user to expose him or herself to enemy counter fire for a long period of time are much better to stay alive than stuff that only deals huge DPS.

The Lolreegar is horribly broken, but it isn't even close at being the best weapon in the game. Those who know - and can - use other weapons at their full potential will easily outperform Lolreegar users in plenty of situations. They might not be able to one-clip an Atlas or something, but they can destroy entire spawns long before Lolreegar users (without abilities like Charge) can get within Lolreegar-range.

[Tokenusername]

Fortack wrote...

DPS is quite meaningless actually. The time required to kill X enemies is what truly matters, and that is something you cannot measure by looking at DPS stats alone.

DPS isn't meant to be an end all measurement. It is just an objective reference point.