225 réponses à ce sujet

[Catastrophy]

Annomander wrote...

stealth_202 wrote...

Alien Number Six wrote...

Sorry I disagree. A few more seconds on cloak is not as useful as 40% extra damage. Also you can use your cloak in many ways that you describe without duration.

TC 4b 40% bonus is additive to base damage.
The real number is about 17% if you put on top level consumables, and 23% if you don't.

Edit:
Anyone who use shotguns on GI is a scrub because he lose 25% damage compared to using it on AIU. The same for AR. You should use it only on TGI. Damage loss for AR on GI is terrible.

Your maths is flawed. Additive damage bonuses provide the stated % boost that they provide, multiplicative bonuses affect the whole.

If your sniper hits for 1000 damage, an 80% additive bonus gives 800 extra damage, regardless of how many other bonuses you have. Stacking consumables for another 45% means you now have 125% extra damage, or 225% of base. Yes, the additive bonus "works out" as being less that the stated % of your "total damage" but what % of your total damage the bonus itself constitutes (after all bonuses and multipliers are applied) is irrelephant, as the additive bonus still gives the stated % of actual damage increase.

Multiplicative bonuses like debuffs and cloak SR bonus from rank 6 actually increase how effective your additive bonuses are, meaning instead of 80%, you actually in effect get more as the base damage is "raised" in the case of the SR bonus, or simply multilpied by an additional multiplier (1.2* in the case of proxy mine).

While it may look like X consumable if you stack bonuses past 1.0 only gives X % of your total damage, the reality is it increases it by the correct amount in terms of actual damage points, but is misleading as it looks like overall its a lower % of the total damage than it should be.

Would only bother about that in the case of powers, as powers tend to start off with very low damage and have multiple evolutions and bonuses which increase their damage. Weapons however do the same damage regardless of evolutions, so considering additive bonuses less important for weapons is a real bad idea, but can be argued for in the case of powers.

Why does BSN need to explain multiplicative and additive so complicated?

Additive boni only affect base damage, multiplicative boni affect damage after resolving base + additive boni.

Anyway, I always calculate percentages and resulting totals by multiplying stuff. Maybe this confuses people?.

[cato potato]

stealth_202 wrote...

Annomander wrote...

The REALLY scrubby thing is that he didn't recognise the fact that accuracy bonuses provide an absolutely invaluable increase in ACTUAL damage output which simply cannot be measured using numbers.

An AIU raider for instance, will not deal the same damage that the GI can except at almost point blank range, as even close to mid, shotguns which are not the wraith, crusader etc will miss pellets, while the GI's spread being tighter will push his damage significantly higher.

Also has a higher likelihood of OHKs due to being able to concentrate more pellets into the enemy head...

Accuracy is severely underrated as a DPS stat.

Then, survivability is a DPS stat too. TGI/AIU wins here for 9/10 players.

And if damage is everything for someone, why not take Reegar every game? Using some other weapon is a DPS loss.

^ That's a weird comment when compared to your previous post below. Is damage everything or not?

stealth_202 wrote..

Anyone who use shotguns on GI is a scrub because he lose 25% damage compared to using it on AIU. The same for AR. You should use it only on TGI. Damage loss for AR on GI is terrible.

Modifié par cato_84, 02 janvier 2014 - 06:23 .

[The Last]

b00g13man wrote...

Moofy76 wrote...

p.s. gotta love some of the immature minded trolls posting that think that damage is always better and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. Damage isn't always better, but generally I think it is.

Damage is always the better option

On that I disagree boog, saying always when there are uses that duration has over the damage evo makes no sense.

What Moofy said however is the correct way to put his opinion, damage isn't always better but thats what he believes is better. I can say the contrary to Moofy's statement, duration isn't always better but I generally think it is a sound choice over damage, got plenty of other classes i can use for "damage" if that's so important. There is more than one infiltrator in the game as well so you can mix it up.

And moof, kids roam these forums on a daily basis, nothing you can really do except pity their reactions when someone decides to disagree with the "consensus".

Modifié par Dolun, 02 janvier 2014 - 06:56 .

[HeroicMass]

Decide for yourself with numbers.  TTK is for platinum.  Javelin X, phasic III, Rail Amp III, Sniper amp V.

GI Javelin TTK Damage vs. Duration

Modifié par heroicmass, 02 janvier 2014 - 07:11 .

[Dr. Tim Whatley]

Dolun wrote...

b00g13man wrote...

Moofy76 wrote...

p.s. gotta love some of the immature minded trolls posting that think that damage is always better and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. Damage isn't always better, but generally I think it is.

Damage is always the better option

On that I disagree boog, saying always when there are uses that duration has over the damage evo makes no sense.

What Moofy said however is the correct way to put his opinion, damage isn't always better but thats what he believes is better. I can say the contrary to Moofy's statement, duration isn't always better but I generally think it is a sound choice over damage, got plenty of other classes i can use for "damage" if that's so important. There is more than one infiltrator in the game as well so you can mix it up.

And moof, kids roam these forums on a daily basis, nothing you can really do except pity their reactions when someone decides to disagree with the "consensus".

These "advantages" make no sense. Do you always ensure there's a duration infiltrator in every game you play? If not, how on Earth do you manage to extract at all? If you do manage to complete games without a duration infiltrator in every single one of those games, that means all the "advantages" duration brings aren't necessary, making more damage the better option every time. Simple.

Now, like I said earlier (you conveniently cut that bit out), there's absolutely nothing wrong with prefering duration.

[Jaded4Chaos]

Annomander wrote...

cato_84 wrote...

stealth_202 wrote...

Alien Number Six wrote...

Sorry I disagree. A few more seconds on cloak is not as useful as 40% extra damage. Also you can use your cloak in many ways that you describe without duration.

TC 4b 40% bonus is additive to base damage.
The real number is about 17% if you put on top level consumables, and 23% if you don't.

Edit:
Anyone who use shotguns on GI is a scrub because he lose 25% damage compared to using it on AIU. The same for AR. You should use it only on TGI. Damage loss for AR on GI is terrible.

Thats odd. Because this max damage build for a shotgun GI only does about 8% less damage than this max damage build for a shotgun AIU. Seems like a negligible loss to me, plus the GI has a more accurate shotgun and a wallhack without having to use up a gear slot.

The really scrubby thing is telling people how they should play their game and insulting them if they decide to play it their way instead.

The REALLY scrubby thing is that he didn't recognise the fact that accuracy bonuses provide an absolutely invaluable increase in ACTUAL damage output which simply cannot be measured using numbers.

An AIU raider for instance, will not deal the same damage that the GI can except at almost point blank range, as even close to mid, shotguns which are not the wraith, crusader etc will miss pellets, while the GI's spread being tighter will push his damage significantly higher.

Also has a higher likelihood of OHKs due to being able to concentrate more pellets into the enemy head...

Accuracy is severely underrated as a DPS stat.

BAM! To tha face:P

[MaxCrushmore]

Damage > Duration IMO and here's why:

I PUG, a lot.

Many times, the other 3 players are not good (i'm sure i'm the only one who experiences this, right?).

Since I have to kill the most to advance the match, that extra %40 damage bonus will shave minutes off the overall time. Instead of a 30-35 minute match, maybe that match now takes 25-30 minutes .. that is many frustrating minutes to remove from those matches.

Off the top of my head, I can think of about half a dozen device locations across all the maps where duration cloak would be handy. Other than that, there is nothing which can't be accomplished with the damage cloak duration.

To each his own .. I personally would rather fight than kite, whenever possible

[Jaded4Chaos]

I agree Damage is usually better but duration has saved the match many of times. Just recently I played a PUG with a BSN'r; Hazard Glacier vs. Collectors. The lag was incredible and I would say we would not have succeeded without my duration QMI. The PUGs stood right next to the devices and died over and over. Did not affect me though because after the PUGs died the smart BSN'r directed their attention away from me while I was cloaked.

It doesn't have much else use though. I would suggest using duration if you PUG but never if you only play with friends.

[Tokenusername]

Dolun wrote...

b00g13man wrote...

Moofy76 wrote...

p.s. gotta love some of the immature minded trolls posting that think that damage is always better and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. Damage isn't always better, but generally I think it is.

Damage is always the better option

On that I disagree boog, saying always when there are uses that duration has over the damage evo makes no sense.

What Moofy said however is the correct way to put his opinion, damage isn't always better but thats what he believes is better. I can say the contrary to Moofy's statement, duration isn't always better but I generally think it is a sound choice over damage, got plenty of other classes i can use for "damage" if that's so important. There is more than one infiltrator in the game as well so you can mix it up.

And moof, kids roam these forums on a daily basis, nothing you can really do except pity their reactions when someone decides to disagree with the "consensus".

Don't be silly. Boog can't be wrong, its a scientific impossibility.

Modifié par Tokenusername, 02 janvier 2014 - 08:12 .

[billpickles]

Jaded4Chaos wrote...

I agree Damage is usually better but duration has saved the match many of times. Just recently I played a PUG with a BSN'r; Hazard Glacier vs. Collectors. The lag was incredible and I would say we would not have succeeded without my duration QMI. The PUGs stood right next to the devices and died over and over. Did not affect me though because after the PUGs died the smart BSN'r directed their attention away from me while I was cloaked.

It doesn't have much else use though. I would suggest using duration if you PUG but never if you only play with friends.

I'm on the wrong platform to have been the other BSN'r, but this sounds a lot like a match I had the other day.  Same map and everything.  Had a bad device and without a mic I couldn't get the other PUGs to kite with me.  They all died, I headed to the basement to try to kite them away and finish it myself (wave 10).  An Asari Huntress joined the match to fill the last slot and did the hack.  It was the best wave 10 join I ever experienced.  Not sure if it was duration or damage, though, 'cause I was busy drawing enemy fire...

EDIT...for the record, I still consider damage to be the right choice

Modifié par billpickles, 02 janvier 2014 - 08:25 .

[The Last]

b00g13man wrote...

These "advantages" make no sense. Do you always ensure there's a duration infiltrator in every game you play? If not, how on Earth do you manage to extract at all? If you do manage to complete games without a duration infiltrator in every single one of those games, that means all the "advantages" duration brings aren't necessary, making more damage the better option every time. Simple.

Now, like I said earlier (you conveniently cut that bit out), there's absolutely nothing wrong with prefering duration.

No i don't have a duration infil in every game i play, but i sure as hell feel the difference when one is in there. I have squad mates killing things fast and they aren't a damage infiltrator, apparently the extra damage isn't necessary?

I notice nothing when a damage speced infiltrator steps in, I do notice when they try to play like duration infil and cap the device when the squad isnt near them yet, breaking cloak halfway through the cap(if they cloaked right before capping) and conveniently enough there's a soldier right there gunning them down since he had time to aggro them before they end up capping the objective, either wasting a medigel or waiting to get stomped.

When playing a duration infil, the objective based waves that are normally hell to get through, turn into being as easy as normal waves when played right. The revives that damage infiltrators won't even go for, i can go for without even hesitating. I'd rather make the wave faster by reviving dead teammates who can kill things and saving them medigel they could have used on a later wave as opposed to clutching waves myself eating up time. Even with the damage spec, the combined effort of you and your team, will kill things faster every time. I'm all for the damage spec when you are 100% sure the team you will be playing with, is not pugs and know what they are doing. There are also some infils that i don't see using without damage.

I agree with you on that point, there's absolutely nothing wrong with preferring duration, but i don't agree on you saying damage is the better option every time, since that is false and up to the persons playstyle. Damage infils may be able to do a good bit of what the OP said on that list, doesn't mean they can do it as effectively.

[DisturbedPsic0]

Eh, I prefer damage. All the other classes can survive quite well without the advantage of being invisible, and so can Infiltrators. I'd rather have what a lot of others don't, which is massive damage boosts. Plus even with that spec the damage infiltrators can do all the things in your list except disable a device in one cloak. But as I said before, other classes can disable devices without being cloaked at all so...

[cato potato]

Tokenusername wrote...

Dolun wrote...

b00g13man wrote...

Moofy76 wrote...

p.s. gotta love some of the immature minded trolls posting that think that damage is always better and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. Damage isn't always better, but generally I think it is.

Damage is always the better option

On that I disagree boog, saying always when there are uses that duration has over the damage evo makes no sense.

What Moofy said however is the correct way to put his opinion, damage isn't always better but thats what he believes is better. I can say the contrary to Moofy's statement, duration isn't always better but I generally think it is a sound choice over damage, got plenty of other classes i can use for "damage" if that's so important. There is more than one infiltrator in the game as well so you can mix it up.

And moof, kids roam these forums on a daily basis, nothing you can really do except pity their reactions when someone decides to disagree with the "consensus".

Don't be silly. Boog can't be wrong, its a scientific impossibility.

Whereas you're constantly admitting your mistakes, right Token?

[Wizard of Ox]

cato_84 wrote...

Tokenusername wrote...

Dolun wrote...

b00g13man wrote...

Moofy76 wrote...

p.s. gotta love some of the immature minded trolls posting that think that damage is always better and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. Damage isn't always better, but generally I think it is.

Damage is always the better option

On that I disagree boog, saying always when there are uses that duration has over the damage evo makes no sense.

What Moofy said however is the correct way to put his opinion, damage isn't always better but thats what he believes is better. I can say the contrary to Moofy's statement, duration isn't always better but I generally think it is a sound choice over damage, got plenty of other classes i can use for "damage" if that's so important. There is more than one infiltrator in the game as well so you can mix it up.

And moof, kids roam these forums on a daily basis, nothing you can really do except pity their reactions when someone decides to disagree with the "consensus".

Don't be silly. Boog can't be wrong, its a scientific impossibility.

Whereas you're constantly admitting your mistakes, right Token?

cato pls, we both know he makes none. 

[BridgeBurner]

stealth_202 wrote...

Annomander wrote...

The REALLY scrubby thing is that he didn't recognise the fact that accuracy bonuses provide an absolutely invaluable increase in ACTUAL damage output which simply cannot be measured using numbers.

An AIU raider for instance, will not deal the same damage that the GI can except at almost point blank range, as even close to mid, shotguns which are not the wraith, crusader etc will miss pellets, while the GI's spread being tighter will push his damage significantly higher.

Also has a higher likelihood of OHKs due to being able to concentrate more pellets into the enemy head...

Accuracy is severely underrated as a DPS stat.

Then, survivability is a DPS stat too. TGI/AIU wins here for 9/10 players.

No, survivability is not a DPS stat thanks to soft cover / RHA. One affects weapons, one affects how many scion cannon shots you can eat before gracing your medigel key.  RHA makes one pretty much irrelevant, whilst the other boosts damage by a huge level, you're talking easily 45% at longer ranges thanks to the accuracy stat double dipping for acc fire penalty as well as the acc cone stats. A destroyer or GI hipfiring their typhoon has a tighter spread than a TGI who's using ADS. The destroyer and GI therefore have better mobility and thus better survivability overall, combined with better damage output and lower ammo consumption...

While your AIU and TGI are wasting time getting the ****** smacked out of them at closer ranges, having to stop their dps cycle to die or cast noob packs, the GI is comfortably behind cover enjoying a 25% accuracy bonus giving him higher damage from a longer rage.

The survivability increase that the AIU and TGI get is pointless if you play correctly, as you will find fewer situations where you need to use noob packs to survive or scrub matrix because you couldn't kill things fast enough from a safe distance if you simply killed the things before they were a threat.

Whatever way you slice it, going AIU or TGI for anything is a bad idea, and always will be.

Modifié par Annomander, 02 janvier 2014 - 09:22 .

[Dr. Tim Whatley]

Dolun wrote...

b00g13man wrote...

These "advantages" make no sense. Do you always ensure there's a duration infiltrator in every game you play? If not, how on Earth do you manage to extract at all? If you do manage to complete games without a duration infiltrator in every single one of those games, that means all the "advantages" duration brings aren't necessary, making more damage the better option every time. Simple.

Now, like I said earlier (you conveniently cut that bit out), there's absolutely nothing wrong with prefering duration.

No i don't have a duration infil in every game i play, but i sure as hell feel the difference when one is in there. I have squad mates killing things fast and they aren't a damage infiltrator, apparently the extra damage isn't necessary?

I notice nothing when a damage speced infiltrator steps in, I do notice when they try to play like duration infil and cap the device when the squad isnt near them yet, breaking cloak halfway through the cap(if they cloaked right before capping) and conveniently enough there's a soldier right there gunning them down since he had time to aggro them before they end up capping the objective, either wasting a medigel or waiting to get stomped.

When playing a duration infil, the objective based waves that are normally hell to get through, turn into being as easy as normal waves when played right. The revives that damage infiltrators won't even go for, i can go for without even hesitating. I'd rather make the wave faster by reviving dead teammates who can kill things and saving them medigel they could have used on a later wave as opposed to clutching waves myself eating up time. Even with the damage spec, the combined effort of you and your team, will kill things faster every time. I'm all for the damage spec when you are 100% sure the team you will be playing with, is not pugs and know what they are doing. There are also some infils that i don't see using without damage.

I agree with you on that point, there's absolutely nothing wrong with preferring duration, but i don't agree on you saying damage is the better option every time, since that is false and up to the persons playstyle. Damage infils may be able to do a good bit of what the OP said on that list, doesn't mean they can do it as effectively.

Constant damage every time you use a weapon or power > the off chance you get a tricky device or have to make a tricky revive (things that can be done without cloak) everytime. If you can't understand that, I don't know what to say.

[The Last]

 

b00g13man wrote...

Constant damage every time you use a weapon or power > the off chance you get a tricky device or have to make a tricky revive (things that can be done without cloak) everytime. If you can't understand that, I don't know what to say.

As i said, plenty of characters and kits to choose from if i wanted damage, any character can damage deal, i also still have the 40% damage boost from the cloak. The off chance of tricky situations you talk about happens more than you think in pugs. The tricky revive that can be done without cloak provides a much higher risk, usually resulting in medigels and ops packs wasted, and in the situation of people deciding to do that without cloak, its normally better to just let them bleed out as opposed to people with duration cloak, in and out with nothing wasted and a player revived.

Wave 10 devices with a bad squad can be hell, to the point of no return, no amount of damage is going to help you when you have to cap all of those devices yourself, especially since no matter how many you kill, they will still be spawning nearby. Less exposure time can be the difference between you being able to get through that device hurdle and extract, or waste multiple resources trying to do it and fail.

If i had to choose between having a bit more of a damage boost, vs having the ability to be ready for any situation that pops up, i'd choose the second every time. Some kits are nice with the damage boost, i admit, but nowhere close to being better in every situation than duration. If you can't understand that, then I don't know what to tell you.

Modifié par Dolun, 02 janvier 2014 - 10:12 .

[Moby]

heroicmass wrote...

Decide for yourself with numbers.  TTK is for platinum.  Javelin X, phasic III, Rail Amp III, Sniper amp V.

GI Javelin TTK Damage vs. Duration

Yeah that's no surprise - one shot difference on every boss save crabs is f*ck all.

[VaultingFrog]

I never stay in cloak very long (probably 2 seconds) so why would I take duration over damage?

[BridgeBurner]

MofuggerX wrote...

heroicmass wrote...

Decide for yourself with numbers.  TTK is for platinum.  Javelin X, phasic III, Rail Amp III, Sniper amp V.

GI Javelin TTK Damage vs. Duration

Yeah that's no surprise - one shot difference on every boss save crabs is f*ck all.

Except using a javelin which OHKs everything in the game is not the best of examples. Compare perhaps, the 40% damage on the talon with the 80% on the talon and you might just notice a significant different in how fast you can kill things and how many occasions you score OHKs.

[HeroicMass]

Annomander wrote...

MofuggerX wrote...

heroicmass wrote...

Decide for yourself with numbers.  TTK is for platinum.  Javelin X, phasic III, Rail Amp III, Sniper amp V.

GI Javelin TTK Damage vs. Duration

Yeah that's no surprise - one shot difference on every boss save crabs is f*ck all.

Except using a javelin which OHKs everything in the game is not the best of examples. Compare perhaps, the 40% damage on the talon with the 80% on the talon and you might just notice a significant different in how fast you can kill things and how many occasions you score OHKs.

I ran it through with four different weapons, Javelin, raider, talon and harrier and there wasn't an amazing difference between any of them.  Slighty higher gaps on the talon and harrier, but the calculator is also set to have tactical cloak damage bonus always active so the TTK will actually be slightly closer than the numbers I saw.  

I still take damage, but the difference wasn't a big as I expected it to be when I first ran the numbers.

[LemurFromTheId]

b00g13man wrote...

Dolun wrote...

b00g13man wrote...

Moofy76 wrote...

p.s. gotta love some of the immature minded trolls posting that think that damage is always better and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. Damage isn't always better, but generally I think it is.

Damage is always the better option

On that I disagree boog, saying always when there are uses that duration has over the damage evo makes no sense.

What Moofy said however is the correct way to put his opinion, damage isn't always better but thats what he believes is better. I can say the contrary to Moofy's statement, duration isn't always better but I generally think it is a sound choice over damage, got plenty of other classes i can use for "damage" if that's so important. There is more than one infiltrator in the game as well so you can mix it up.

And moof, kids roam these forums on a daily basis, nothing you can really do except pity their reactions when someone decides to disagree with the "consensus".

These "advantages" make no sense. Do you always ensure there's a duration infiltrator in every game you play? If not, how on Earth do you manage to extract at all? If you do manage to complete games without a duration infiltrator in every single one of those games, that means all the "advantages" duration brings aren't necessary, making more damage the better option every time. Simple.

Now, like I said earlier (you conveniently cut that bit out), there's absolutely nothing wrong with prefering duration.

Do you always ensure there's a damage infiltrator in every game you play? If not, how on Earth do you manage to extract at all?

Seriously, that's one of the stupidest arguments I've read on BSN in a long while. Let's face it: if you're a decent player, neither evolution choice is likely to make a difference on whether you're going to extract or not. Still, duration makes some things easier, even if damage is generally the better evolution - even much, much better.

[Heldarion]

heroicmass wrote...

Annomander wrote...

MofuggerX wrote...

heroicmass wrote...

Decide for yourself with numbers.  TTK is for platinum.  Javelin X, phasic III, Rail Amp III, Sniper amp V.

GI Javelin TTK Damage vs. Duration

Yeah that's no surprise - one shot difference on every boss save crabs is f*ck all.

Except using a javelin which OHKs everything in the game is not the best of examples. Compare perhaps, the 40% damage on the talon with the 80% on the talon and you might just notice a significant different in how fast you can kill things and how many occasions you score OHKs.

I ran it through with four different weapons, Javelin, raider, talon and harrier and there wasn't an amazing difference between any of them.  Slighty higher gaps on the talon and harrier, but the calculator is also set to have tactical cloak damage bonus always active so the TTK will actually be slightly closer than the numbers I saw.  

I still take damage, but the difference wasn't a big as I expected it to be when I first ran the numbers.

Talon GI fires about half of its shots without the cloak bonus.

[Dr. Tim Whatley]

Aedolon wrote...

Do you always ensure there's a damage infiltrator in every game you play? If not, how on Earth do you manage to extract at all?

Seriously, that's one of the stupidest arguments I've read on BSN in a long while. Let's face it: if you're a decent player, neither evolution choice is likely to make a difference on whether you're going to extract or not. Still, duration makes some things easier, even if damage is generally the better evolution - even much, much better.

Of course not. I don't always play what's best, which happens to be the topic at hand. Like I've said several times in this thread, there's absolutely nothing wrong with preferring it, but It's not better.

[geordiep]

YING - YANG