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[Zerker]

As someone way too much into history, the scenario in Origins in which the Cousland Warden marries the Queen Anora amuses me a lot.
If we accept Ferelden as an allegory of medieval England, a complete shift in the ruling bloodline could never happen, someone would find a loosely-related cousin or something even if they had to search the whole of Europe step by step.

However, we witness that shift in the fantasy England(kind of), Ferelden. The nobility actually agress to a Queen-consort(Anora) taking the throne as a proper Queen. And then, there is the matter of Cousland Warden.

Neither the Mac Tir line, nor the Cousland line carry Theirin blood. So, assuming that Anora succeeds as the Queen, the head of the state, and the Cousland assumes the position of King-consort, or Prince-consort, there are a lot of questions left unanswered:

-If Anora is not unfertile as the rumor says; who their children -the new bloodline of Fereldan Kings- will be named after? Cousland line, or Mac Tir line? This is rather a unique issue, did they even have an heir?
-If it's called the "Cousland Bloodline", can the OGB have a claim on the Fereldan throne?

I understand that this stuff is rather trivial, that's just the history nerd in me talking after hearing the word "shift in bloodlines" and getting hyped over it. It's all very interesting, here's hoping I'm not alone in this and we will have answers, or at least references for these questions in the third game of the series.

Modifié par Maddok900, 30 décembre 2013 - 12:15 .

[King Cousland]

Even though no Thedosian nation is intended as a direct parallel to a real world state, I'd disagree with your premise that there couldn't have been a dynastic shift. Look at the situation following Cailan's death: there are no heirs, the nobility is fractured and the late king's father-in-law declares himself regent. Now, when the bastard brother of the king surfaces months later and his only legitimate support comes from a noble who will doubtless be extremely close to the centre of government when Alistair is made king, is it really that difficult to see why the nobility would accept Anora and Cousland as monarchs? Both are the scions of the two most powerful and respected families in Ferelden, Anora is much loved by the people and is known by the nobility to have ruled in all but name during Cailan's reign, while much of the nobility believe that the Warden's father should have been kind instead of Cailan in any case (according to Dairren), not to mention the fact that the Warden has effectively united a fractured people.

To answer your first question, I'd say the first candidate would be Fergus. He seems to be the only Cousland remaining, and it appears that the Mac Tir bloodline would die with Anora. If not Fergus, I'd suggest that a Theirin restoration could occur (assuming Alistair was still alive). Failing that, I think the Landsmeet would have to pick an entirely new house, probably the Guerrins under Eamon or Teagan.

I'd say any claim the OGB would have is tenuous at best, given that the Warden is technically prince consort and not actually the de jure king. Even if the OGB did try and press a claim, how could it possibly prove its link to the Warden? Also, bare in mind that Morrigan would likely raise the child to neither know nor care about its family connections.

Modifié par King Cousland, 30 décembre 2013 - 12:46 .

[Jaison1986]

I think the throne would follow the Cousland name considering their family are high nobles for centuries, while Anora family became noble in just one generation. I also not sure the OGB would have any claim, since first, Morrigan probally wouldn't allow it, and second, he is likely an mage and the bastard child of the king with an woman that is not the queen, quite scandalous, no doubt. In my game, the OGB is heir of Highever, considering Fergus didn't married again, but I doubt an mage boy would be allowed to take the family crest.

[Augustei]

Ferelden isn't based of Norman England but Saxon England, It has an elective monarchy not a primogeniture one so the bloodline is irrelevant. Still it sounded really strange when Eamon says he has a claim to the throne because his sister was the last kings wife.

As to the house of the child. It would be a Mac Tir since The Wardens marriage to Anora is a matrilineal marriage since she did not want to rule in her husbands shadow after all. Plus The Couslands aren't the royal family the Mac Tir's are

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 30 décembre 2013 - 12:57 .

[JuGonzo]

In the end of DA2 the seeker said the warden was gone... But how a king (or a queen) could sampleador gone?

[Zerker]

King Cousland wrote...
Even though no Thedosian nation is intended as a direct parallel to a real world state, I'd disagree with your premise that there couldn't have been a dynastic shift. Look at the situation following Cailan's death: there are no heirs, the nobility is fractured and the late king's father-in-law declares himself regent. Now, when the bastard brother of the king surfaces months later and his only legitimate support comes from a noble who will doubtless be extremely close to the centre of government when Alistair is made king, is it really that difficult to see why the nobility would accept Anora and Cousland as monarchs? Both are the scions of the two most powerful and respected families in Ferelden, Anora is much loved by the people and is known by the nobility to have ruled in all but name during Cailan's reign, while much of the nobility believe that the Warden's father should have been kind instead of Cailan in any case (according to Dairren), not to mention the fact that the Warden has effectively united a fractured people.

To clear things up, I'm not saying that the shift could not happen in a fantasy universe, it already did. I'm saying it would be almost impossible in medieval England.

I'm merely interested in this new Cousland/Mac Tir bloodline, what would it be called, which family name would hold the most wieght, the potential heirs for the bloodline and so on.

OGB stuff is theoretical by the way, you can think of that as any bastard the Cousland may have.

Modifié par Maddok900, 30 décembre 2013 - 01:10 .

[Augustei]

Maddok900 wrote...

King Cousland wrote...
Even though no Thedosian nation is intended as a direct parallel to a real world state, I'd disagree with your premise that there couldn't have been a dynastic shift. Look at the situation following Cailan's death: there are no heirs, the nobility is fractured and the late king's father-in-law declares himself regent. Now, when the bastard brother of the king surfaces months later and his only legitimate support comes from a noble who will doubtless be extremely close to the centre of government when Alistair is made king, is it really that difficult to see why the nobility would accept Anora and Cousland as monarchs? Both are the scions of the two most powerful and respected families in Ferelden, Anora is much loved by the people and is known by the nobility to have ruled in all but name during Cailan's reign, while much of the nobility believe that the Warden's father should have been kind instead of Cailan in any case (according to Dairren), not to mention the fact that the Warden has effectively united a fractured people.

To clear things up, I'm not saying that the shift could not happen in a fantasy universe, it already did. I'm saying it would be almost impossible in medieval England.

I'm merely interested in this new Cousland/Mac Tir bloodline, what would it be called, which family name would hold the most wieght, the potential heirs for the bloodline and so on.

OGB stuff is theoretical by the way, you can think of that as any bastard the Cousland may have.

Once again, not impossible or unlikely at all in an elective monarchy.
The Kings of Ferelden must be approved and appointed by the landsmeet.
Not impossible in medieval England either (See Anglo-Saxon England)

It
would be called the Mac Tir bloodline since Anora is the sitting
monarch whereas the Warden is merely a consort + its a matrilineal
marriage.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 30 décembre 2013 - 01:21 .

[Zerker]

XxDeonxX wrote...
Once again, not impossible or unlikely at all in an elective monarchy. The Kings of Ferelden must be approved and appointed by the landsmeet. Not impossible in medieval England either (See Anglo-Saxon England)

It would be called the Mac Tir bloodline since Anora is the sitting monarch whereas the Warden is merely a consort + its a matrilineal marriage.

I get what you mean by the Norman England - Saxon England comparison, I haven't thought of it that way before. Thank you.

So if the Mac Tir name would have the most weight, and assuming the Cousland and Anora didn't have any heirs, you don't see Fergus as the first/automatical choice in terms of heirs, am i correct in that assumption?

Modifié par Maddok900, 30 décembre 2013 - 01:21 .

[Augustei]

Maddok900 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...
Once again, not impossible or unlikely at all in an elective monarchy. The Kings of Ferelden must be approved and appointed by the landsmeet. Not impossible in medieval England either (See Anglo-Saxon England)

It would be called the Mac Tir bloodline since Anora is the sitting monarch whereas the Warden is merely a consort + its a matrilineal marriage.

I get what you mean by the Norman England - Saxon England comparison, I haven't thought of it that way before. Thank you.

So if the Mac Tir name would have the most weight, and assuming the Cousland and Anora didn't have any heirs, you don't see Fergus as the first choice in terms of heirs, am i correct in that assumption?

If Anora & The Warden die without issue then Fergus will be the best cantidate for King. I'm just saying if Anora and Cousland do have a child it will be A Mac Tir and not a Cousland.

[wright1978]

My Warden Cousland who marries Anora is my favourite playthrough.
It was a very unusual position as the only Theirin candidate was a bastard whilst arrayed on the other side were 2 strong houses, a powerful queen, 1 or 2(Loghain/Warden) powerful warriors.
I assume there will be still Theirin supporters but they were simply trumped by pragmatists who saw the other option as stabilising. Given my Warden had Alistair put to death i hope there is the possibility of warden/Anora children personally. The OGB bastard may have a shout if paired with a strong historically noble house as a new pragmatic solution or maybe the whole house of cards will collapse.

[Augustei]

I don't think the Theirin supporters are all to numerous beyond Eamon, They can easily vote against Alistair in the Landsmeet despite the fact he is the son of Maric the Savior as they call him. Many apparently considered Bryce Cousland for King over Cailan.. And most gave into Orlesian rule not only for Moira but for Brandel as well before the Orlesians even won the war.

Amusingly if Ferelden were a primogeniture monarchy, since most of the Theirins were all killed during the occupation the likely heirs to the throne would be the Drydens...Heck it'd probably be Levi Dryden (God help Ferelden lol)

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 30 décembre 2013 - 01:30 .

[Magdalena11]

It would probably be Fergus, unless Maric's and Fiona's son could be found. This is possible because Fiona is still alive during the events in Asunder and may have kept discreet tabs on him. An illegitimate child of a king would be a possibility if no closer relatives could be found.

This was what was feared when Charles II of England had no legitimate children and his brother, James II had no sons. I forget the details but Charles' illegitimate eldest son (Duke of Norfolk?) was feared to have this goal.

[Zerker]

XxDeonxX wrote...
Amusingly if Ferelden were a primogeniture monarchy, since most of the Theirins were all killed during the occupation the likely heirs to the throne would be the Drydens...Heck it'd probably be Levi Dryden (God help Ferelden lol)

That would be the most amusing outcome. Make it happen bioware.

[Augustei]

Magdalena11 wrote...

It would probably be Fergus, unless Maric's and Fiona's son could be found. This is possible because Fiona is still alive during the events in Asunder and may have kept discreet tabs on him. An illegitimate child of a king would be a possibility if no closer relatives could be found.

This was what was feared when Charles II of England had no legitimate children and his brother, James II had no sons. I forget the details but Charles' illegitimate eldest son (Duke of Norfolk?) was feared to have this goal.

At this point the royal line has already changed, not to mention Fiona's son is a half elf (If that fact were known the nobility really wouldn't want himon the throne) Plus this child is also an unacknowledged bastard. But just by the fact that the royal line has changed would make Fergus the heir and any theirin bastards pretenders or nothing

[Lunder]

I'ts always the male who provides the name - unless we are talking about a male bastard, or some special agreement between the families. Just my 2 cents

[Augustei]

Lunder wrote...

I'ts always the male who provides the name - unless we are talking about a male bastard, or some special agreement between the families. Just my 2 cents

Not Always, In the case of Royalty its the Royal Family who provides the name (The sitting monarch in this case being Anora Mac Tir) Otherwise it depends on whether the marraige is matrilineal or not. If it is the female provides the name.
These types of marraiges are not rare in history, they were common in cases of male nobles marrying higher ranked females (Such as a Count marrying a Duchess or something)

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 30 décembre 2013 - 02:01 .

[Toasted Llama]

Magdalena11 wrote...

It would probably be Fergus, unless Maric's and Fiona's son could be found. This is possible because Fiona is still alive during the events in Asunder and may have kept discreet tabs on him. An illegitimate child of a king would be a possibility if no closer relatives could be found.

There is still the active rumor that Alistair is Fiona's + Maric's son. It wouldn't really surprise me either since I beeliieeevvve.... Alistair was born in 9:10, the same time Fiona gave birth to her bastard.

Given that, Fiona wanted this child to be told that his mother was a human and had died (this would be the starstruck maid) and that Duncan would watch over him (this is probably why Alistair was recruted to the Grey Wardens. He wasn't really that much of an amazing templar, really...) it is strongly hinted that this rumor is actually true.

EDIT: also want to add that Alistair often complained how he was constantly being kept out of danger by Duncan, further suggesting that the child Duncan had to watch over was Alistair.

Now I'll be honest and admit that I haven't read the books by myself and I assume that what has been written on the wikia is checked and legit.

Modifié par Toasted Llama, 30 décembre 2013 - 02:53 .

[ThatGamerWithSouvlaki285]

My two cents on the if both anora and warden died is that any relative of either would have claim, how high one is placed in the list of claim i guess depends on popular support. More accurately who others think that has the higher claim. Assuming that that this was a matrineal marriage any one of the mac tir line will have higher claim than the cousland side,. In terms of fergus and ogb, as an actual cousland Fergus has a higher claim than OGB as OGB is an Illegitimate bastard and not to mention possible apostate mage, If not a mage, OGB only chance to have a higher claim the fergus is if he/she was legitimized and given the Mac Tir name. That is if anora hasnt a legitimized bastard herself but i think thats unlikely.

[Augustei]

Toasted Llama wrote...
Alistair was born in 9:30

My God, are you telling me that my fellow Grey Warden companion that accompanied me in Orgins to end the 5th blight was what? A few months old at the time? People were saying he was immature but considering his age I would say he is extremely mature...Also I pity his mother giving birth to such a large child

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 30 décembre 2013 - 02:11 .

[Magdalena11]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Magdalena11 wrote...

It would probably be Fergus, unless Maric's and Fiona's son could be found. This is possible because Fiona is still alive during the events in Asunder and may have kept discreet tabs on him. An illegitimate child of a king would be a possibility if no closer relatives could be found.

This was what was feared when Charles II of England had no legitimate children and his brother, James II had no sons. I forget the details but Charles' illegitimate eldest son (Duke of Norfolk?) was feared to have this goal.

At this point the royal line has already changed, not to mention Fiona's son is a half elf (If that fact were known the nobility really wouldn't want himon the throne) Plus this child is also an unacknowledged bastard. But just by the fact that the royal line has changed would make Fergus the heir and any theirin bastards pretenders or nothing

You are right about the half-elf part.  I had forgotten that while I don't view elves as inferior Ferelden does.  So for that reason he wouldn't be a candidate.  If Anora can be chosen to rule in her own name as a dowager in the presence of an acknowledged male heir and she dies without issue the line might be assigned to anyone with a similar claim.

Ferelden really isn't that similar politically to historic England.  The reason was that it was thought that a woman wouldn't be a capable ruler.  A dowager would not have been permitted to rule in her own right.  A woman called Maude or Mathilda (both names were used) attempted to exert such a claim as the closest surviving relative of the late king of England in the early 1000s.  A civil war was fought to prevent a woman's succession to the throne with the victor being Stephen.  He had no children of his own either so on his death Maude's son took over.  None of these rulers lasted any length of time, I believe.  A more recent, English, historic example would be Henry V as recorded by Shakespeare.  Remember that whole boring part about Salic law?  The whole point was to prevent a woman's taking the crown.  Elizabeth I was what changed their minds.

My point is that while you can make Anora queen and marry her, and I guess you can headcanon anything you want as to who you think the next in line should be, you can't superimpose historic England on Ferelden really.  For that matter, why would this matter?  I think it's been repeated over and over that the warden's story is done.  Headcanon as many heirs as you like.

[Augustei]

Although Fergus would be the best candidate for the throne you can bet Eamon will try his best to seat himself or some puppet of his on it..Ambitious bastard that he is
Heck if he's anything like his brother Teagan he will likely start a bloody civil war because of it

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 30 décembre 2013 - 02:13 .

[Augustei]

Magdalena11 wrote...
You are right about the half-elf part.  I had forgotten that while I
don't view elves as inferior Ferelden does.  So for that reason he
wouldn't be a candidate.  If Anora can be chosen to rule in her own name
as a dowager in the presence of an acknowledged male heir and she dies
without issue the line might be assigned to anyone with a similar claim.

Ferelden
really isn't that similar politically to historic England.  The reason
was that it was thought that a woman wouldn't be a capable ruler.  A
dowager would not have been permitted to rule in her own right.  A woman
called Maude or Mathilda (both names were used) attempted to exert such
a claim as the closest surviving relative of the late king of England
in the early 1000s.  A civil war was fought to prevent a woman's
succession to the throne with the victor being Stephen.  He had no
children of his own either so on his death Maude's son took over.  None
of these rulers lasted any length of time, I believe.  A more recent,
English, historic example would be Henry V as recorded by Shakespeare.
 Remember that whole boring part about Salic law?  The whole point was
to prevent a woman's taking the crown.  Elizabeth I was what changed
their minds.

My point is that while you can make Anora queen and
marry her, and I guess you can headcanon anything you want as to who you
think the next in line should be, you can't superimpose historic
England on Ferelden really.  For that matter, why would this matter?  I
think it's been repeated over and over that the warden's story is done.
 Headcanon as many heirs as you like.

Alot of that civil war had to do with Maude's insistance of ruling as if she were back in the holy roman empire as an absolute monarch and calling herself Empress however, not to mention she was never coronated on her insistance.
Many of the nobility supported her both when her father declared her son his heir (Meaning she would rule anyway as Regeant) and after his death as well.
Even had Eustace lived he was weak and unpopular especially among the bishops and so the war would have continued.

Your points relate to Norman-England anyway. All I was stating initially is that the country that Ferelden is based off is Saxon-England not Norman England,This is evident in their culture and politics, Politics primarily I mean in the sense that the monarchy is not primogeniture but elective.

As to the heir, no headcanon required. The precedent established with Anoras sucession as the monarchs spouse. The same would occur again based on that precedent and with the Warden's heir being Fergus he would be the most likely cantidate.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Consdiering that in most early feudal systems the title of King was NOT hereditary, I don't see why there couldn't be a dynasty shift in Ferelden. Also, the very fact that a King in Ferelden needs the support of the Landsmeet also proves that the title of King is not technically hereditary in Ferelden.

[Toasted Llama]

XxDeonxX wrote...

My God, are you telling me that my fellow Grey Warden companion that accompanied me in Orgins to end the 5th blight was what? A few months old at the time? People were saying he was immature but considering his age I would say he is extremely mature...Also I pity his mother giving birth to such a large child

Woops, wrong year, my bad lol

[MKDAWUSS]

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Ferelden Throne without an heir down the road. It nullifies your choice without retconning. No matter what you did, the outcome is the same.