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[Sifr]

An interesting discussion.

Part of the reason for the Civil War, in addition to her father proclaiming himself acting Regent in her stead, was that she had no real legitimate claim to the throne, aside from being the widow of the rightful king. Many do not even see her as noble either, since her father rose them from commoner status during Maric's rebellion.

Cousland on the other hand, is a name that carries a lot of weight and prestige in Ferelden. Behind the Theirin / Guerrin line, they're essentially the second most powerful family in the land and many wanted Bryce Cousland to become King over Cailan. Part of the reason why a Cousland is able to marry either Alistair or Anora is because their status pretty much legitimises that person in the eyes of the Landsmeet.

For that reason, in Anora's case I'd suggest that any issue would be considered a Cousland rather than a Mac Tir, since it's mostly an issue of old money verses new money. However as a Theirin (even an illegitimate one), any issue from Alistair / female Cousland would be considered a Theirin rather than a Cousland, since royal blood is seen as the trump card in this case.

Although, since Teagan is seen in DA2 trying to get Drunk!Alistair to come back and retake his rightful throne, we might have another Civil War in the off somewhere down the line?

I have no problem if they retcon it so that Dead!Alistair is non-canon and Alistair (eventually) becomes King, since we could get a least half a dozen good plotlines from this;

1: Alistair was elected to the throne during Origins, with or without a consort.
1a: If married the female Cousland, Alistair is now looking for his wife, who has vanished.
2: Alistair returns to take the throne from the Cousland/Anora monarchy. He either;
2a: Wins the throne via Landsmeet, since male Cousland has vanished and Anora may have had no heir.
2b: Launches a Civil War with the aid of Teagan and Arl Eamon.
2c: Ends up having to go against Cousland in order to get the throne.
3: Returns to seize the throne from Anora, either through landmeet or civil war style.

Personally, I kinda like the idea of seeing Alistair fighting for the throne against his former friend.

Modifié par Sifr1449, 30 décembre 2013 - 09:30 .

[AresKeith]

Aren't we gonna see the Cousland's again in DA:I?

[Generic Guy]

Toasted Llama wrote...

Magdalena11 wrote...

It would probably be Fergus, unless Maric's and Fiona's son could be found. This is possible because Fiona is still alive during the events in Asunder and may have kept discreet tabs on him. An illegitimate child of a king would be a possibility if no closer relatives could be found.

There is still the active rumor that Alistair is Fiona's + Maric's son. It wouldn't really surprise me either since I beeliieeevvve.... Alistair was born in 9:10, the same time Fiona gave birth to her bastard.

Given that, Fiona wanted this child to be told that his mother was a human and had died (this would be the starstruck maid) and that Duncan would watch over him (this is probably why Alistair was recruted to the Grey Wardens. He wasn't really that much of an amazing templar, really...) it is strongly hinted that this rumor is actually true.

EDIT: also want to add that Alistair often complained how he was constantly being kept out of danger by Duncan, further suggesting that the child Duncan had to watch over was Alistair.

Now I'll be honest and admit that I haven't read the books by myself and I assume that what has been written on the wikia is checked and legit.

I think Alistair was orginally planned to be Fiona's son, but I think Bioware changed their minds. Alistair's sister is human as well, and older, and Eamon would've had to have amazing forseight for this woman to carry on the ruse.

[KC_Prototype]

I would like Bioware to dive deeper into this.

[EmperorSahlertz]

AresKeith wrote...

Aren't we gonna see the Cousland's again in DA:I?

We know we are visiting Ferelden again, Redcliffe has been specified, but I don't think that an appearance of the COuslands has been confirmed or denied.

[BobZilla84]

This is a great topic I was under the impression that Anora being the shrewd and cunning Queen that she was accepted the wardens offer to solidify her position as Queen with the Couslands being one of the most powerful Noble families and given her fathers actions you would think that she would choose to rule as Queen Anora Cousland. Also another thing to consider in DA2 The Warden is called King Cousland and not Mac Tir so its most likely she decided it would be easier than dealing with the grumblings of the Noble Families and The Landsmeet that way.

[SgtSteel91]

I think I'm going to have two paths going into DAI: one where my Cousland Warden becomes Prince-Consort to Anora and Alistair exiles himself and one where Alistair becomes king with Anora as his queen and my Warden runs off with Morrigan.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 30 décembre 2013 - 10:29 .

[KC_Prototype]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Aren't we gonna see the Cousland's again in DA:I?

We know we are visiting Ferelden again, Redcliffe has been specified, but I don't think that an appearance of the COuslands has been confirmed or denied.

I would love to see the Couslands again!

[Gervaise]

Alistair only thought Goldana was his half sister because he had bought into the story about his origins. If there was nothing odd about his parentage other than he was the bastard son of a maid, then it does seem odd that when Anora didn't seem to be producing an heir, that Eamon didn't suggest that Cailan acknowledge Alistair as his brother and heir in the absence of any legitimate issue, plus block any attempt to recruit him into the Grey Wardens since that effectively meant you were renouncing your family claims as Wardens are not meant to have temporal power. Of course this technicality would appear to have been overlooked when either Alistair or Cousland Warden take over the throne.

If Alistair was Fiona's son, this could actually have some interesting ramifications in DAI if it is made canon that he his king, since it was the actions of Fiona (and not Anders or Hawke) that caused the final breakdown of the Circles and at the end of Asunder she was effectively the leader of the mage revolt.

In the absence of any heirs to Anora/Alistair/Cousland Warden, the candidate for the monarchy would be the next highest ruling house. The Couslands were meant to be second to the Theirin's so any surviving Couslands would be next in line. I don't think it was stated anywhere that Fergus did not remarry, so assuming he did and had more children, they would be next in line, particularly if the Cousland Consort adopted them as their heirs. Anora would not object to this, provided they didn't try and take over before her death, as her main concern was maintaining her rule and since she claimed to have Ferelden's best interests at heart, having an officially adopted heir she could train up would be a good way of avoiding civil war when she was gone.

A similar situation could occur if Alistair was on the throne with a Cousland Consort and they had no children, which was likely given they were both Grey Wardens.

[Generic Guy]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

I think I'm going to have two paths going into DAI: one where my Cousland Warden becomes Prince-Consort to Anora and Alistair exiles himself and one where Alistair becomes king with Anora as his queen and my Warden runs off with Morrigan.

Those are my two of my playthroughs exactly, plus one more "evil" playthrough as a Dwarf noble.

[KC_Prototype]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

I think I'm going to have two paths going into DAI: one where my Cousland Warden becomes Prince-Consort to Anora and Alistair exiles himself and one where Alistair becomes king with Anora as his queen and my Warden runs off with Morrigan.

I'm having a similar thing but with 3 paths. One Cousland who runs off with Morrigan, one mage who runs off with Leliana and another Cousland who becomes King-consort but Alistair isn't exiled.

[Generic Guy]

Gervaise wrote...

Alistair only thought Goldana was his half sister because he had bought into the story about his origins. If there was nothing odd about his parentage other than he was the bastard son of a maid, then it does seem odd that when Anora didn't seem to be producing an heir, that Eamon didn't suggest that Cailan acknowledge Alistair as his brother and heir in the absence of any legitimate issue, plus block any attempt to recruit him into the Grey Wardens since that effectively meant you were renouncing your family claims as Wardens are not meant to have temporal power. Of course this technicality would appear to have been overlooked when either Alistair or Cousland Warden take over the throne.

But why would Goldana pretend to be a long lost sister? Eamon plan for dealing with Anora's possible infertility was for Cailan to wed the Empress of Orlais, as was reveled in Return to Ostagar.

I think in the early stages of development this was planned reveal, Alistair being Fiona's son, but now it would seem to convulted for so much effort to hide this from him.

[Angrywolves]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Magdalena11 wrote...

It would probably be Fergus, unless Maric's and Fiona's son could be found. This is possible because Fiona is still alive during the events in Asunder and may have kept discreet tabs on him. An illegitimate child of a king would be a possibility if no closer relatives could be found.

This was what was feared when Charles II of England had no legitimate children and his brother, James II had no sons. I forget the details but Charles' illegitimate eldest son (Duke of Norfolk?) was feared to have this goal.

At this point the royal line has already changed, not to mention Fiona's son is a half elf (If that fact were known the nobility really wouldn't want himon the throne) Plus this child is also an unacknowledged bastard. But just by the fact that the royal line has changed would make Fergus the heir and any theirin bastards pretenders or nothing

Possibly.<_<

[BobZilla84]

My main save is a Human Noble Warrior that married Anora. I let her execute Alistair and spared the Father In-Law and in the end I became the Teryn of Gwaren so yeah I am looking forward to that playthrough I mean seriously my Warden is one of the 2 remaining Teryns and with my Brother being the other oh yeah goodtimes.

[Ferretinabun]

Maddok900 wrote...

If we accept Ferelden as an allegory of medieval England, a complete shift in the ruling bloodline could never happen... 

It did happen. Several times.

The Norman conquest was a total annihilation and repopulation of the royal line (and almost entire aristocracy).
Henry the 4th deposed and murdered the reigning monarch Richard the second.
The crown swung between the houses of York and Lancaster several times during the Wars of the Roses.
Henry the seventh, who overthrew Richard the third had only the most tenuous claim to the throne (his great grandmother was once the king's brother's mistress).
William and Mary ousted the reigning James the second and his heir during the Glorious Revolution.

All a monarch has ever really needed to rule is the support of the people. Unpopular ones have a habit of being ousted, divine right and legal bloodline be damned. If English royal history teaches us anything it's basically that people make up the rules as they go as and when the need arises.

[Toasted Llama]

Generic Guy wrote...

But why would Goldana pretend to be a long lost sister? Eamon plan for dealing with Anora's possible infertility was for Cailan to wed the Empress of Orlais, as was reveled in Return to Ostagar.

I think in the early stages of development this was planned reveal, Alistair being Fiona's son, but now it would seem to convulted for so much effort to hide this from him.

Could be they bought her into believing her brother was a son of Maric's and predicted that one of them (Alistair or Goldanna) would seek out the other, making Alistair's belief that he is the son of a star struck maid even more solid.

And hiding it from Alistair? They're hiding it from everyone in Ferelden and hell yes they would go to extreme lengths for that. Can you imagen the ****storm that would arise if Alistair was king and it was revealed that not only he is a bastard son (which is bad); he's the son of an orleisian (also really bad...), elven (very, very bad), grey warden (terribly bad) mage (very extremely terribly bad)

I don't think you can combinate something that is hated even worse by fereldans than an Orleisian elven Grey Warden mage x'D

Still, I think Bioware might even get to the point of retconning his death and cause him to take over the throne anyway (because of Theirin blood). Would provide some interesting storyline, that's for sure.

[SgtSteel91]

The Grey Wardens can regain some respect to the people of Fereldan, so most people may not be so hard on Alistair for being the son of a Grey Warden. I mean it's not like Grey Wardens swear not to have sex or have children like the Night's Watch, right?

But yeah, I think most Fereldans are going to throw a ****storm that he's the son of a Orleisian Elf Mage.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 31 décembre 2013 - 01:41 .

[KC_Prototype]

BobZilla 2k10 wrote...

My main save is a Human Noble Warrior that married Anora. I let her execute Alistair and spared the Father In-Law and in the end I became the Teryn of Gwaren so yeah I am looking forward to that playthrough I mean seriously my Warden is one of the 2 remaining Teryns and with my Brother being the other oh yeah goodtimes.

You killed Alistair?! How could you?! HE WAS YOUR FRIEND!

[Augustei]

KC_Prototype wrote...

BobZilla 2k10 wrote...

My main save is a Human Noble Warrior that married Anora. I let her execute Alistair and spared the Father In-Law and in the end I became the Teryn of Gwaren so yeah I am looking forward to that playthrough I mean seriously my Warden is one of the 2 remaining Teryns and with my Brother being the other oh yeah goodtimes.

You killed Alistair?! How could you?! HE WAS YOUR FRIEND!

My Cousland did to, He was a Theirin and thus a threat to my rule.. Plus if I didn't a bunch more people would just die in a civil war down the line because he's a drunken fool easily manipulated by Eamon.

1 fools life is not equel to all those that would die in his short bloody civil war.
Also he was annoying and never shut up about Duncan.. I mean i get he was his father figure but he talked as if the guy was a god lol

[Angrywolves]

Generic Guy wrote...

Toasted Llama wrote...

Magdalena11 wrote...

It would probably be Fergus, unless Maric's and Fiona's son could be found. This is possible because Fiona is still alive during the events in Asunder and may have kept discreet tabs on him. An illegitimate child of a king would be a possibility if no closer relatives could be found.

There is still the active rumor that Alistair is Fiona's + Maric's son. It wouldn't really surprise me either since I beeliieeevvve.... Alistair was born in 9:10, the same time Fiona gave birth to her bastard.

Given that, Fiona wanted this child to be told that his mother was a human and had died (this would be the starstruck maid) and that Duncan would watch over him (this is probably why Alistair was recruted to the Grey Wardens. He wasn't really that much of an amazing templar, really...) it is strongly hinted that this rumor is actually true.

EDIT: also want to add that Alistair often complained how he was constantly being kept out of danger by Duncan, further suggesting that the child Duncan had to watch over was Alistair.

Now I'll be honest and admit that I haven't read the books by myself and I assume that what has been written on the wikia is checked and legit.

I think Alistair was orginally planned to be Fiona's son, but I think Bioware changed their minds. Alistair's sister is human as well, and older, and Eamon would've had to have amazing forseight for this woman to carry on the ruse.

The people at the castle told her the boy had died.Maybe he did and he wasn't Allistair.
Besides she was only his half sister.

I think killing Allistair is one of the most unwise things a player could do in the game.It's an outright betrayal and means the player is no better than Loghain imo.
The overpreoccupation with the succession aka Allistair would have been a threat to the Cousland throne is nonsense.Besides the warden can only hold the throne for a while as it is.
But players can do as they wish.Glad I don't have to follow tthe examples some of them set.:whistle:

Modifié par Angrywolves, 31 décembre 2013 - 05:23 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Toasted Llama wrote...

Generic Guy wrote...

But why would Goldana pretend to be a long lost sister? Eamon plan for dealing with Anora's possible infertility was for Cailan to wed the Empress of Orlais, as was reveled in Return to Ostagar.

I think in the early stages of development this was planned reveal, Alistair being Fiona's son, but now it would seem to convulted for so much effort to hide this from him.

Could be they bought her into believing her brother was a son of Maric's and predicted that one of them (Alistair or Goldanna) would seek out the other, making Alistair's belief that he is the son of a star struck maid even more solid.

And hiding it from Alistair? They're hiding it from everyone in Ferelden and hell yes they would go to extreme lengths for that. Can you imagen the ****storm that would arise if Alistair was king and it was revealed that not only he is a bastard son (which is bad); he's the son of an orleisian (also really bad...), elven (very, very bad), grey warden (terribly bad) mage (very extremely terribly bad)

I don't think you can combinate something that is hated even worse by fereldans than an Orleisian elven Grey Warden mage x'D

Still, I think Bioware might even get to the point of retconning his death and cause him to take over the throne anyway (because of Theirin blood). Would provide some interesting storyline, that's for sure.

Exactly. Any one of those would be reason enough to stop Alistair's ascension to the throne. It would just be seen as one or more of those groups trying to garner power over Ferelden. So they came up with the story that he was simply the result of an affair between Maric and a maid to hide all those traits about him from becoming known.

[BobZilla84]

Honestly my executing Alistair was done because I figured that Eamon would eventually convince him to try and claim the throne causing another Cival War so I did what was best for Ferelden. That and there was that Awakening Glitch as well him showing up as King when Anora and I ruled yeah cant have any of that so bye bye Alistair.

[Augustei]

Angrywolves wrote...

The people at the castle told her the boy had died.Maybe he did and he wasn't Allistair.
Besides she was only his half sister.

I
think killing Allistair is one of the most unwise things a player could
do in the game.It's an outright betrayal and means the player is no
better than Loghain imo.
The overpreoccupation with the succession
aka Allistair would have been a threat to the Cousland throne is
nonsense.Besides the warden can only hold the throne for a while as it
is.
But players can do as they wish.Glad I don't have to follow tthe examples some of them set.

Betrayal? So is his abandoning The Wardens During a Blight setting a dangerous precedent if we allow him to do it. I would have spared him if he didn't try to desert. As for the threat being nonsense? If you call A civil war something not to be concerned about then you are one amusing fellow now aren't you? Even if you ignore that epilogue slide what did you think was happening when Teagan showed up in Kirkwall telling Alistair his exile is finished and he was suddenly allowed home? Do you think Anora so inconsistant that she suddenly decided it was fine to let him back in? As to the no better then Loghain well I don't have a low opnion of Loghain anyway so if I'm regarded as "No better than Loghain" thats fine with me, because I think he's pretty great.

You think killing Alistair is unwise, I think sparing him and allowing him to desert far more unwise

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Personally, I have Alistair become King and spare Loghain. Yeah I don't get Alistair in my party anymore but lorewise it makes more sense. Alistair being King Maric's son keeps him in the public support and Loghain is still serving his nation as a tactical Grey Warden until the Blight is over. After that, he's with the Wardens so him betraying Alistair like he did Cailan is gone, despite the fact he has no need to since the reasons he betrayed Cailan are gone now since the Blight is over so no need to worry about Orlesian troops entering and Alistair has no plans to leave Anora for Celene.

[BobZilla84]

I gotta admit killing Alistair sucked but seriously as much as I like him I wouldn't trust him to lead a dying horse to water let alone a nation because he would be nothing more than Eamons Puppet King look if you do back the Fool at the Landsmeet whats the first thing he does Name Eamon Regent yeah I wonder whos gonna be making the descions my point is Alistair is a follower he followed Duncan than your Warden and would no doubt follow Eamon as well.