284 réponses à ce sujet

[Warden661]

eluvianix wrote...

BoBear wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

General TSAR wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Actually, Merrill never made any deals. She asked the demon for help,

That's even worse.

I don't know why it would be. It gave her what she needed, and she never tried to release it either.

Yes, she got exactly what she needed. So much so that she decided to go back to the demon for more "help." If it wasn't for Marethari executing one of the most idiotic acts of the game, who knows what Merrill would have done. Just because she didn't make a deal per say doesn't mean what she did wasn't dangerous. Using blood magic is never not dangerous.

I never said it wasn't dangerous. All I am saying is that she played it smart. She had Hawke go with her to slay her should anything happen.

Fair enough. I don't think I would call it "playing it smart" but I'll agree it was a tad bit more responsible. A tad bit more.

[Aschenglorie]

I can't remember a mage playthrough where I've not been a bloodmage, either DAO or DA2. Both my canon Warden and Hawke are, too. Why? Because why not?

What if blood magic was actually more successful or beneficial to campaign/game completion? Who would specialize in it then? Certainly more than the weak and cruel, no? Isn't the set up of a hero as "pure" (or not making deals with demons in order to stop blights or save cities from Qunari invasions) about as plausible as one that comes from making deals with demons? I mean, we're all taught to believe our own volition will be enough to overcome any obstacle but that's rarely the case IRL so why should it be in game? So many people here want to play the underdog--elves, for example--because of a love love of the "rise from nothing" mythology. Instead, why not see how ideas about "normal" and "good vs. evil" play out in a fantasy world? Why not take such statements as "not all demons are demons" and "we [Dalish] have our own stories, I don't need to borrow yours" and imagine their possibilities? Why robotically assume that one can simply rise from nothing and armed with only the light of goodness and truth triumph against something deemed ultimate evil?

I guess my final thought is that I enjoy playing a blood mage because I'm not one IRL. But as I'm not particularly righteous nor valorous, faced with seemingly insurmountable odds I'm not about to say I wouldn't make that deal given the opportunity. So why would my characters?

[Jaronking]

Ok I was replaying DA2 to redo my head canon and I didn't stat it right away and had the trailer and u know when they have hawk fighting the arishok and hawks uses blood magic to defeat him so hawks was a blood mage and he did some good

[Todd23]

In all seriousness I think that the shedding of your own blood to fuel magic is perfectly fine, I also think that using the blood of others who've given their consent is perfectly fine. It only becomes a problem to me when they start using it in a way that takes control or liberty away from others, such as forcibly taking blood to fuel spells or controlling the mind/body of another.

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

I'd rather they be blood mages. Putting to the sword a bunch of anemic, emo mages is a lot more preferabble to fighting just...emo mages.

I mean, normally, I'm all for hunting down things that give me a challenge, but the martyr-complex these upstart mages all seem to have just make me want to kick puppies, so the easier it is to wipe them all off the face of Thedas, the better, in my book. 

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

While I sided with the mages as I believe everyone deservers freedom, I think anyone caught using blood magic should be punished by death on the spot, not arrested no trial just executed on the spot. Even if they are unwilling participants in the blood magic they should still be executed. Mages can use whatever magic they want but blood magic is where the line is drawn.

[themageguy]

My good Mage- blood magic is corrupting dark magic that only attracts the attention of foul demons.
My ruthless Mage- blood magic is a tool.

[Bleachrude]

eluvianix wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

"Good" blood magic is headcanon made up by a bunch of forumites that didn't have anything to do with designing magic on Thedas.

Bioware is very clear on what kind of mage uses it. The weak and the cruel.

The story of Crescens and Seraphinian seems to be an argument that works for what you dub "good" blood magic.
And Bioware has never said that only "weak and cruel" mages use blood magic, ever.

But Bioware HAS said that blood magic weakens the veil AND it is more powerful with fear and terror. This is NOT a value-neutral object that forumites try to pass off. You can point to "good" uses of blood magic but said good uses will always hold the taint of the downside which frankly, is a pretty big downside (allowing demons to physically cross over without a host).

[MDCT506]

My mage characters tend to see blood magic as a powerful tool that is just as likely to bite them in their own arse as it is to net them a victory. It's like using radiation as a weapon, you'll probably cook your enemies where they stand, but you might regret it later when you start growing an extra foot out of your forehead. Use with caution.

My non-mage characters see blood magic as some seriously scary stuff whether they are pro-mage or not. They tend to stick blood mages full of sharp things before a demon explodes out of them. Even the so-called "good" blood mages get put to the sword with gusto.

I see blood magic as a quick path to power with an overly slippery slope built in. A system of magic where you willingly exchange vitae for magical power, or in other words, valuing power over life is a scary thing especially since the power scales with the amount of bloodletting. IMO, the only way for a mage to use blood magic responsibly is to have a tremendous reserve of willpower and a deep reverence for life. Which is, ironically, exactly the kind of person who who I think wouldn't use it.

Consider this potentially hyperbolic expansion on this idea. There is an amount of blood that a human mage can consume as fuel for magic that is lethal (usually in the 7-9 pint range when it's all gone) for the casting of spells. There is an amount of lyrium that will fuel the same amount of spells. Therefore, it could be concluded that a human life is worth approximately the same as the vat of lyrium (you could probably get elves for half price though).

Even if used for noble causes, and the blood is taken from the mage him/herself, they tend to live through the experience. Self sacrifice is as pure and noble as it gets, but how does it affect the mage's sense of self-worth. If the mage's sense of self worth decreases, how long before their willpower erodes. For an object lesson on mages with beat-down outlooks on life and ******-poor willpower, see DA2. If their sense of self-worth increases, how long before arrogance rears its ugly head. Arrogance being rather closely related to a little emotion called pride and its not-so-little demon.

[andy6915]

Bleachrude wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

"Good" blood magic is headcanon made up by a bunch of forumites that didn't have anything to do with designing magic on Thedas.

Bioware is very clear on what kind of mage uses it. The weak and the cruel.

The story of Crescens and Seraphinian seems to be an argument that works for what you dub "good" blood magic.
And Bioware has never said that only "weak and cruel" mages use blood magic, ever.

But Bioware HAS said that blood magic weakens the veil AND it is more powerful with fear and terror. This is NOT a value-neutral object that forumites try to pass off. You can point to "good" uses of blood magic but said good uses will always hold the taint of the downside which frankly, is a pretty big downside (allowing demons to physically cross over without a host).

Blood magic being used in general weakening the veil sounds like nonsense. They may claim that, but not once in the games or extended resource materials has that been shown. There was several blood mages in Denerim in DAO, yet that city only has the veil damaged in a single place... The reason for that was a mass murder of elves and children by city guard, no magic to speak of. So in the entire city where blood magic is being used, the only place the veil weakens is a place where magic isn't involved? Please. There are a number of things proven to weaken the veil, lots and lots of death or places where idiots summoned demons to them on purpose like with Avernus in Warden's Keep. But simply casting blood wound weakens the veil? Or merely using it to cast a basic fire spell because you have no mana left to do it weakens the veil? Hogwash. If, if, if does... It must be by about 0.0000001% or something, definitely less then a simple murder weakens it. It is true that blood magic does typically lead to a weakened veil, but only because those same blood magic casters purposely summoned demons using their blood magic for that specific purpose and not because of the spell they cast and what medium they used for power.

OH! And here's another food for thought. Blood magic is WIDELY used with with wild abandon in Tevinter. Yet the veil there has not once been said to be weak. They don't have lots of demons pouring through or frequent veil accidents over there, it sounds pretty stable. Yet blood magic supposedly weakens the veil... So why isn't Tevinter like Kirkwall in that it has a super weak veil that demons can pass through effortlessly? The "veil destroying" blood magic is used over there more than anywhere, yet their veil seems fine.

If Bioware wrote that down in that WoT book, they're either clearly making up lore that contradicts their other lore or the writer of it added some misinformation that wasn't caught by whatever Bioware person looks it over to be sure nothing is wrong with the info in the book. I'm going to say something extreme yet true from the looks of it: this "fact" about blood magic is not canon. I don't care if it was apparently written by bioware, it flat out contradicts prior information. So either I'm to believe one throwaway line in a single book, or I'm to believe the other 99% of canon material. I'm going to go with the majority and go with the rest of the canon and ignore that little false fact in that book. Bioware screwed up on that one. Next time they want to try saying something like this, maybe they should check to see if it actually correlates with the rest of the canon first.

Modifié par andy69156915, 03 janvier 2014 - 09:46 .

[Sifr]

andy69156915 wrote...

Blood magic being used in general weakening the veil sounds like nonsense. They may claim that, but not once in the games or extended resource materials has that been shown.

I agree for the most part. The only incident I can think of is Merrill using Blood Magic at Sundermount, but a Mage Hawke mentions that the Veil is already weak there already, so I doubt that the slight shift she caused by dispelling the barrier really amounted to much.

If the Veil was already that weak, nothing Merrill probably did would have stopped them coming through if they were that determined. At most, her use of blood magic merely announced that there was a "Free buffet coming".

Modifié par Sifr1449, 03 janvier 2014 - 09:28 .

[andy6915]

OH! And here's another food for thought. Blood magic is WIDELY used with with wild abandon in Tevinter. Yet the veil there has not once been said to be weak. They don't have lots of demons pouring through or frequent veil accidents over there, it sounds pretty stable. Yet blood magic supposedly weakens the veil... So why isn't Tevinter like Kirkwall in that it has a super weak veil that demons can pass through effortlessly? The "veil destroying" blood magic is used over there more than anywhere, yet their veil seems fine.

Like I said, this is uncanon hogwash.

EDIT: May as well as this to my last post.

Modifié par andy69156915, 03 janvier 2014 - 09:43 .

[Star fury]

Bleachrude wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

"Good" blood magic is headcanon made up by a bunch of forumites that didn't have anything to do with designing magic on Thedas.

Bioware is very clear on what kind of mage uses it. The weak and the cruel.

The story of Crescens and Seraphinian seems to be an argument that works for what you dub "good" blood magic.
And Bioware has never said that only "weak and cruel" mages use blood magic, ever.

But Bioware HAS said that blood magic weakens the veil AND it is more powerful with fear and terror. This is NOT a value-neutral object that forumites try to pass off. You can point to "good" uses of blood magic but said good uses will always hold the taint of the downside which frankly, is a pretty big downside (allowing demons to physically cross over without a host).

Bioware also said that the blood magic is not evil. So it's not like "that forumites try to pass off.", it's a Word of God.

[Veruin]

Star fury wrote...

Bioware also said that the blood magic is not evil. So it's not like "that forumites try to pass off.", it's a Word of God.

Did they say that before or after WoT came out?  Because Bioware has contridicted themselves before.  The Dalish life span thread comes to mind.

andy69156915 wrote...
If Bioware wrote that down in that WoT book, they're either clearly making up lore that contradicts their other lore or the writer of it added some misinformation that wasn't caught by whatever Bioware person looks it over to be sure nothing is wrong with the info in the book. I'm going to say something extreme yet true from the looks of it: this "fact" about blood magic is not canon. I don't care if it was apparently written by bioware, it flat out contradicts prior information. So either I'm to believe one throwaway line in a single book, or I'm to believe the other 99% of canon material.

Yes, ignore the writers because it doesn't suit your tastes.  Are you going to tell me you only believe that Denerim is populated by 30 people because that's what shown in game?  Also, given the fact that DAvid (or some other writer) already revised the WoT and made corrections.  Blood magic was not among them.

Modifié par Veruin, 03 janvier 2014 - 02:05 .

[andy6915]

Veruin wrote...
Yes, ignore the writers because it doesn't suit your tastes.  Are you going to tell me you only believe that Denerim is populated by 30 people because that's what shown in game?  Also, given the fact that DAvid (or some other writer) already revised the WoT and made corrections.  Blood magic was not among them.

Well then they're fools. Don't act like Bioware can't screw up their own lore, just because it came from them doesn't actually make it canon when it contradicts everything else. If blood magic weakened the veil then Tevinter would be a demon apocalypse by now after literally thousands of years of using blood magic more than the rest of the world combined. With bioware's current uncanon lore about blood magic, Tevinter is a plot hole the size of how big its empire used to be. Unless they explain in a later game that Tevinter had some giant magic thing that superpowers the veil's strength over there or something, this is just one giant gaffe on Bioware's part.

Modifié par andy69156915, 03 janvier 2014 - 02:28 .

[Asdrubael Vect]

For me Blood magic is no different as non-blood magic, this is just a tool with a big potential and in some cases, it is vitally important for Thedas(like Grey Wardens)...even hypocritical Orlais Chantry with their Templars use blood magic

And espesially this magic is valuable for mages who fight with their Templars/Orlais Chantry oppressors and demons.

Orlais Chantry Cirlces must be destroyed as their Templars

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 03 janvier 2014 - 02:36 .

[Star fury]

Veruin wrote...

Did they say that before or after WoT came out?  Because Bioware has contridicted themselves before.  The Dalish life span thread comes to mind.

Gaider wrote that line after WoT came out.

[Magdalena11]

Gaider this or that. Whatevs. When are we going to get a game already? The waiting is killing me.

I've stood on my soapbox and will shut up now to the delight of everyone everywhere. Back to the nightmare run on DA2.

[Hellion Rex]

andy69156915 wrote...

OH! And here's another food for thought. Blood magic is WIDELY used with with wild abandon in Tevinter. Yet the veil there has not once been said to be weak. They don't have lots of demons pouring through or frequent veil accidents over there, it sounds pretty stable. Yet blood magic supposedly weakens the veil... So why isn't Tevinter like Kirkwall in that it has a super weak veil that demons can pass through effortlessly? The "veil destroying" blood magic is used over there more than anywhere, yet their veil seems fine.

Like I said, this is uncanon hogwash.

EDIT: May as well as this to my last post.

To be fair though, Tevinter probably does have the most weakened Veil, because any magic weakens the Veil, and Tevinter uses a crap ton of it. But, like Avernus could, I bet they know how to repair it as well. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Couldn't Tevinters just smart enough to not go completely haywire and overuse their magic to the extent it actually tears the veil?

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Couldn't Tevinters just smart enough to not go completely haywire and overuse their magic to the extent it actually tears the veil?

It probably wouldn't even require them to go haywire, to be honest. Their whole society thrives on magic. It probably happens a crap ton on accident. But my guess is they know how to repair it as well. 

[Silfren]

andy69156915 wrote...

Veruin wrote...
Yes, ignore the writers because it doesn't suit your tastes.  Are you going to tell me you only believe that Denerim is populated by 30 people because that's what shown in game?  Also, given the fact that DAvid (or some other writer) already revised the WoT and made corrections.  Blood magic was not among them.

Well then they're fools. Don't act like Bioware can't screw up their own lore, just because it came from them doesn't actually make it canon when it contradicts everything else. If blood magic weakened the veil then Tevinter would be a demon apocalypse by now after literally thousands of years of using blood magic more than the rest of the world combined. With bioware's current uncanon lore about blood magic, Tevinter is a plot hole the size of how big its empire used to be. Unless they explain in a later game that Tevinter had some giant magic thing that superpowers the veil's strength over there or something, this is just one giant gaffe on Bioware's part.

While I agree that Bioware has a tendency to contradict their own lore in massive ways not easily handwaved aside, I wouldn't go calling it "uncanon." 

I've often discussed the same thing, that Tevinter's veil must be quite thin since they openly practice magic, and blood magic, too, is widely used despite the official sanction against it. 

I don't think that that means that Bioware has contradicted themselves, however.  I think it's evidence that Tevinter has a far greater understanding of magic and the Veil than elsewhere in Thedas, and that this is an example of why the White Chantry's practice of suppressing magical research is ultimately counterproductive. 

Not only does Tevinter not, apparently, have a problem with demons overrunning the place, there is also evidently no widespread problem of abominations.  All this despite what the White Chantry insists are the inevitable dangers of blood magic. 

So before resorting to hostility in rejecting Bioware's own statements, I'd sooner just consider that Tevinter most likely has safeguards in place to suppress demonic invasions, etc.  Given that the lore about the use of magic resulting in a thin veil isn't anything new but has been around for years, and it's a fairly standard aspect of the story, I don't think it can be said that Bioware has overlooked something, but that we simply haven't been given the full story yet.  Tevinter isn't a plothole, it's an unexplained mystery.

[Medhia Nox]

When I see a mage that isn't a player who uses blood magic and isn't a self-serving megalomaniac or pathetic weakling who can't do normal magic... I'll consider it. Fortunately - what I "consider" - doesn't affect anyone else.

Bioware has, for me, only shown pathetic blood mages. At best, I ignore them (Merrill) and leave them staring at broken objects the rest of their days - at worst, a few well placed spells while they're mutilating themselves and presto - a dead or imprisoned blood mage for the Templars.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 03 janvier 2014 - 03:46 .

[Hellion Rex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

When I see a mage that isn't a player who uses blood magic and isn't a self-serving megalomaniac or pathetic weakling who can't do normal magic... I'll consider it. Fortunately - what I "consider" - doesn't affect anyone else.

Bioware has, for me, only shown pathetic blood mages. At best, I ignore them (Merrill) and leave them staring at broken objects the rest of their days - at worst, a few well placed spells while they're mutilating themselves and presto - a dead or imprisoned blood mage for the Templars.

Merrill doesn't strike me as a pathetic weakling who can't do normal magic or a self-serving megalomaniac. 

[Medhia Nox]

Doesn't Merrill think she's a special case that can save her people?

A megalomaniac doesn't have to be a supervillain... they need to believe that they alone can do some grand standing gesture and are meant for it.

And if she wasn't obsessed with the elves - then she would be less self-serving. I do not do "my people" - I think it's a very selfish type of thinking.

And - like I said - she gets an "at best I just ignore her" pass - cause, well - she also happens to be incapable without my assistance. ((I leave her in her house - and she just sits there.  I never helped her with any of her quests)).

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 03 janvier 2014 - 03:53 .