72 réponses à ce sujet

[Maximillion46]

Prequels aren't universally bad...

In my own personal opinion, I liked Halo: Reach, Batman: Arkham Origins, Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword and Bioshock Infinite Rapture Burial at Sea DLC Episode 1, even if I knew what happened in Halo 1, Batman: Arkham Asylum, Legend of Zelda games and Bioshock 1.

Could just be me though?

Gears of War: Judgment is said to be good.

[JamesFaith]

Guanxii wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

Why so many people keep saying prequel = FCW, Rachni war and so on?

There is no ultimate condition that prequel have to be tied to known events or known characters in fictional universe like ME, prequel just show its place in timeline.

And how avoid breaking lore and retcons? SImply by creating unknown event not mentioned in lore. F.e. some local war in Terminus systems wouldn't damage known lore (no mention in Codex) and you still could alter its progress and result.

Why does every game have to have universe shaping consequences... it's a ridiculous mindset. One soldier cannot change the outcome of a war. Choices are always more meaningful and impactful on a personal level which is why the suicide mission or mulling over EDI's right to self determination is so much more memorable for the right reasons than deciding the future of the entire galaxy in such a ridiculous fashion. To say a game about the first contact war or the rachni wars would be devoid of interesting moral choices is rather silly.

I have no problem with more personal story and consequences, in fact I supported it many times. This was just example of decisions which would create great consequences without breaking or retconning lore.

[AlanC9]

Guanxii wrote...

I'd rather have the thread be about everybody's ideas about what a first contact war game could be than have the thread focus on my ideas.

Well, all I can do along those lines is say that I think the FCW is a bad idea for a prequel. I don't have a problems with prequels per se, though -- as others mention, there's room for other events in the history. 

[Sanunes]

Maximillion46 wrote...

Prequels aren't universally bad...

In my own personal opinion, I liked Halo: Reach, Batman: Arkham Origins, Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword and Bioshock Infinite Rapture Burial at Sea DLC Episode 1, even if I knew what happened in Halo 1, Batman: Arkham Asylum, Legend of Zelda games and Bioshock 1.

Could just be me though?

Gears of War: Judgment is said to be good.

Its not just you, but there are many people around here that will look for the faults in the game and broadcast "BioWare's continued failure" because they couldn't keep what might have been a throwaway line straight.

I haven't played any of those games you mentioned, but one of my friends disliked Batman: Arkham Origins because they gave him gear that was better then what in the first Arkham game, for it didn't make sense that when Batman is first starting out they have better gear then when he has captured Joker again.  I think that would be an issue with the Mass Effect games because the technology has changed between the different Mass Effect games and I can't see BioWare going back to the old systems. If BioWare could find something to cover those issues it might work, but when you have people gunning to prove how bad BioWare games are especially after what happened with Mass Effect 3, I just can't see it being a winning scenario.

[Maximillion46]

@ Sanunes (trying to avoid quote pyramids): That would be a major problem... unless there are a lot of fans of the old system and you could give them that in one spin-off story? Though if you had no choice but to switch to the new system in a true sequel, you'd anger and confuse the players of the spin-off story. Every story set before ME1 would have this mechanic problem, no matter what war or smaller conflict they'd pick (don't know how it would be in the previous cycles (Prothean energy weapons?), but I guess chances are slim they're gonna set a game in a previous cycle because 'it's already doomed').

Though a tragic story set in the last days of one of the cycles, where they make preparations for the next (plans for the Crucible, grooming other species, anything), would seem... sweet? Maybe they're even discovered post-ME3 in cryotubes or something, though it would depend on your choices whether you and your friends survive. The fate of their species would be decided, but not the characters we'd meet in this ME NEXT and if there's one thing Bioware made me do and caused a lot of the frustration at ME3's bleak ending, it is that they made me care about the characters. And if you see your beloved characters die (Shepard and others, not gonna discuss that here), that hits you much harder than if the game or trilogy was meh to begin with.

Could just be this sad Fire Emblem music one of my friends sent me xD


And I do see a big pile of 'if Bioware makes it, it'll suck anyway so why bother?'. I can understand why the pile's there, this game made you care about it being good, ending included and when it didn't sit right with some, yeah... Regardless of my own opinion about ME3 as a whole, I'd rather just discuss ideas in terms of plausibility and how interesting they would be if they were the setting for ME NEXT, then run every idea into the ground because 'Bioware will screw it up'.

On an unrelated note, Batman: Arkham Origins has more gadgets and they worked really well, so from a gameplay perspective I could only welcome it. As for Arkham Asylum and City having less gadgets, the handwave is that he 'didn't bring them on those nights' and also 'too many gadgets and thus a bigger belt slowed Batman down (something rookie Batman still had to learn)'. It's pretty flimsy, but Arkham Asylum Batman did have a small supply of gadgets for such a long superhero fighting career (and it's Batman we're talking about); it is implied and also canonically stated that he'd been Batman for a number of years and had stopped Joker numerous times.

Modifié par Maximillion46, 07 janvier 2014 - 01:38 .

[Artifex_Imperius]

why no first contact war? the most important part is first contact.

a great thing to see is how humans met the council.

but the most exciting part is we get to kill Turians! < something a lot of BSN does not want to see.

Modifié par Artifex_Imperius, 07 janvier 2014 - 02:16 .

[Maximillion46]

I just remembered Deus Ex: Human Revolution is also a prequel^^

Also Artifex, I agree^^ maybe not so much on killing Turians, but hey, it's very plausible to happen with first contact stuff.

[Fixers0]

I don't think any tech used in the Mass Effect trilogy  should be used for the Alliance in FCW scenario. One of the reasons Walters' comics about FCW sucked was because they showed the Alliance during the war pretty much the same as it was in Mass Effect.  I would rather give them more traditional aesthetics, with rudimentary versions of  Mass Effect technology.

[wolfsite]

Can't see the First Contact War making a good premise for a game for many of the reasons stated above:

- Many events and characters during the war have been set meaning the game would be extrmely linear, plus the player would not be able to make any impactful decisions in game since the outcomes have already been set as canon.

- The war was extremely short with the main combat lasting a few days with no actual winner since the council intervened to end the conflict

- No human Biotics,  or other alien involvment so a lot of content would be removed from the game which could make it feel shallow in comparison to the orignal trilogy.  Add the this the removal of a lot of weapons that have become Mass Effect standards since they did not exist during the war or were not used by humans at the time.

- If MP was implemented it would be extremely limited since the war only features humans & Turians which would again feel like content be removed and getting a lesser product compared to ME3 MP.  Plus again Biotics would be removed since humans didn't have biotics at the time and Turians normally kept a tight leash on those with biotic abilites.

- First contact War has been covered in expanded universe comics and novels.  This would again limit story possibilites even further for a game.

- Player character could be challenging to create for 2 main reason:
  1.  The player will want to play as someone important but the important characters in the war are already established.
  2.  If the player did get to play as an important character then they will be severely restricted to that character and again would not be able to make choices that go against established canon.

Again best to go forward as there is very little room for a user created character to have any real influence during FCW.  Many people feel jaded if a choice they make is not represented in future installments, imagine the reaction of a game were the choice would mean nothing if it goes against established lore.

[Sanunes]

Maximillion46 wrote...

I just remembered Deus Ex: Human Revolution is also a prequel

A prequel on its own is not a bad thing, but from my experience the audience can't know exactly what was going to happen. Using Deus Ex (for I played Human Revolution), Deus Ex never really told the player about what happened in during that timeframe so it was an unknown just like a sequel, but unlike in Deus Ex Bioware has told us almost everything that could have really happened during The First Contact War for we know the major players and the major events for it only lasted a very short time before the council stepped in and I feel that is fairly true for the time between the discovery on Mars and Mass Effect 1, for there is only a small window there of 36 years.

I haven't played any of the Halo games past the first one, but if during the games that take place before Reach we knew more then just "Only Spartan 313 survived" I think it would have been a boring game, so if all we knew about The First Contact War was that the council stepped in and stopped it I think it could make a good game, but we know that it started at a Mass Relay Humanity was trying to start and the Turians destroyed the human ships. On Shanxi we know the Turians attacked the coloney thinking it was Humanity's home planet which was run by Ashley's grandfather who surrendered to the Turians which was then liberated by the Human forces.  At that point the Turians were preparing for full scale war and the council stepped up.  There could be a hidden story in there, but at the same time it has to make sure it doesn't conflict with any of that known information.

The other issue isn't really a problem in the Mass Effect universe, but the player expectations.  There are people that want to be able to play different races or have Biotic powers, but I can't see either of them working during the time of the First Contact War.  Biotics were first discovered after accidents in the early 2150's, but The First Contact War is in 2157, so that means most of the Biotics were only a few years old.

I am not saying they couldn't do it, but it just seems to be less room for fault if they converge the different endings to Mass Effect 3 (or even just ignore then) and have players upset at what they do there then finding something that coudl aggrivate the players later in the game.

[Maximillion46]

Sanunes wrote...

A prequel on its own is not a bad thing, but from my experience the audience can't know exactly what was going to happen. Using Deus Ex (for I played Human Revolution), Deus Ex never really told the player about what happened in during that timeframe so it was an unknown just like a sequel, but unlike in Deus Ex Bioware has told us almost everything that could have really happened during The First Contact War for we know the major players and the major events for it only lasted a very short time before the council stepped in and I feel that is fairly true for the time between the discovery on Mars and Mass Effect 1, for there is only a small window there of 36 years.

I haven't played any of the Halo games past the first one, but if during the games that take place before Reach we knew more then just "Only Spartan 313 survived" I think it would have been a boring game, so if all we knew about The First Contact War was that the council stepped in and stopped it I think it could make a good game, but we know that it started at a Mass Relay Humanity was trying to start and the Turians destroyed the human ships. On Shanxi we know the Turians attacked the coloney thinking it was Humanity's home planet which was run by Ashley's grandfather who surrendered to the Turians which was then liberated by the Human forces.  At that point the Turians were preparing for full scale war and the council stepped up.  There could be a hidden story in there, but at the same time it has to make sure it doesn't conflict with any of that known information.

The other issue isn't really a problem in the Mass Effect universe, but the player expectations.  There are people that want to be able to play different races or have Biotic powers, but I can't see either of them working during the time of the First Contact War.  Biotics were first discovered after accidents in the early 2150's, but The First Contact War is in 2157, so that means most of the Biotics were only a few years old.

I am not saying they couldn't do it, but it just seems to be less room for fault if they converge the different endings to Mass Effect 3 (or even just ignore then) and have players upset at what they do there then finding something that coudl aggrivate the players later in the game.

I 'feel' stuck, when I try guessing what ME NEXT could be. As a writer, I tried thinking about it all, for fun and as a fan: what could they do next? So why do I feel stuck and can't imagine the BW writers not being stuck as well (though mind you, I'm not a professional, so my skill is probably nothing compared to theirs):

- Picking a canon or 'merging' the ME3 ending choices would probably anger a lot of fans (those who picked another option or just go like 'so picking an ending didn't have any effect on what happens in the sequel')

- Prequels have a much smaller scope, there's the ME1 weapons mechanic problem and people really want their diverse MP

- Changing the setting doesn't seem to go over well on the forums, neither does changing the races, so another galaxy or another cycle would seem... extremely unlikely

- There have been one or two small spin-off games that take place during the ME trilogy, but their scope and choices are minimal; if people demand a MP section, chances are you need the Reaper war to have all these races fight a common enemy (if you have PvE, mind you)... so it would be another game also set during the ME3 events, with an improved MP? don't think the folks of Bioware want to repeat themselves and again, minimal choices potential

- People apparently want important choices that MUST influence a trilogy that was made before ME NEXT... there's a lot of hate against prequels, a smaller scope and the particular, pretty reasonable problems any ME prequel would have

- Going with a new enemy, but with the Reapers' scope? Fans don't want a smaller scope, but they don't want an enemy even bigger than the Reapers because that would be 'ridiculous'... the Leviathan could be a plausible new enemy to fight, though they're in a non-free DLC, so odd for those that didn't buy it and just played vanilla ME3... and those endings make a sequel so hard (in my opinion), at least without upsetting a lot of fans any way you want to go

So I have no problem with a smaller scope, a lack of choices that influence millions of lives, a new setting, might rather keep the old races (though a new setting seems like fun like a new galaxy, to me), look forward to a MP (though I'm not sure how they're gonna accomplish one that is very much like the varied ME3 MP, but even better)... but most people have a very big problem with such things.

It does seem Leviathans as a new enemy (or synthetics or any large enemy faction seems to go over well with the fans, as long as there's a new big conflict) could work and be accepted, allowing for a MP, maybe even being able to play as a SP asari or turian (though I sense that would just be too much programming to put in a character-driven game, unlike 'cosmetic races' in other similar games)... and then there's explaining away the ME3 endings... and killing the quarian or geth... and the krogan possibly led by Wreav and without Eve...  (unless you make the quarian and geth 'disappear' (angering quarian fans and the occasional geth fan?) and make the krogan be reformed anyway (again, that choice wouldn't matter at all then). This feels like one of those tight writing spots not even *insert best writer ever* couldn't write himself out of without making it seem like an a**pull:s

In my very personal opinion, I would love a game or games chronicling the rise of humanity in the galaxy, maybe even with the FCW as one hell of an intro scene, not necessarily the whole game, because it is a very important prelude to humanity's rise, but its events are much more chronicled than I realise. But looking at what the fanbase wants, it lacks: major choices (going hand in hand with a Reaper-sized threat?), the sequelness and post-ME3 races and weapons for the MP... oh and it 'sucks' it's a prequel. Did I forget anything?

Though Bioware folks saying ME NEXT isn't necessarily before, during or after ME3... makes me think they're gonna go way into the future, way into the past, or way into another galaxy... could always be that they say 'screw this' and make a totally different universe, cycle or galaxy with ME game mechanics and technology. They certainly seem excited:p

Edit about Halo: Reach: there was a novel (with quite some points getting retconned, though apparently marines shout 'For Reach!' or something in the Halo trilogy) and everyone who read probably saw the ending of Halo: Reach coming, while it completely took me by surprise. But knowing what's going to happen actually made it even more tragic: no matter how many people you save, the listed number of casualties was already decided before Halo: Reach was made. Noble Team will lose and knowing Spartans, sacrifice themselves for the people. And yet, after playing the campaign dozens of times, I still think it's a great and heartbreaking game, that I keep coming back to.

Modifié par Maximillion46, 08 janvier 2014 - 07:21 .

[Sanunes]

Maximillion46 wrote...

I 'feel' stuck, when I try guessing what ME NEXT could be. As a writer, I tried thinking about it all, for fun and as a fan: what could they do next? So why do I feel stuck and can't imagine the BW writers not being stuck as well (though mind you, I'm not a professional, so my skill is probably nothing compared to theirs):

<snip>

I completely agree its going to be hard to do, for I think no matter what BioWare does there is going to be resistance and possible "you did it wrong" for that seems to be a common approach to many games (and even reviews) anymore.  I really don't envy what they are up against.  I am just hoping for a fun game and hope that they are able to come up with a story concept that works for the series.

[Big Destiny]

first contact war would suck as a game

[Maximillion46]

Sanunes wrote...

Maximillion46 wrote...

I 'feel' stuck, when I try guessing what ME NEXT could be. As a writer, I tried thinking about it all, for fun and as a fan: what could they do next? So why do I feel stuck and can't imagine the BW writers not being stuck as well (though mind you, I'm not a professional, so my skill is probably nothing compared to theirs):

<snip>

I completely agree its going to be hard to do, for I think no matter what BioWare does there is going to be resistance and possible "you did it wrong" for that seems to be a common approach to many games (and even reviews) anymore.  I really don't envy what they are up against.  I am just hoping for a fun game and hope that they are able to come up with a story concept that works for the series.

Fingers crossed then:) seems we'll just have to wait and see.

[Maximillion46]

Crazy afterthought: What if some of the Reapers stayed behind in dark space as an insurance policy? And what if they come out decades later to see their fellow Reapers destroyed, controlled or peaceful? As I said, just a thought Bioware might have been considering for ME NEXT, however unlikely.

[Guanxii]

Maximillion46 wrote...

Crazy afterthought: What if some of the Reapers stayed behind in dark space as an insurance policy? And what if they come out decades later to see their fellow Reapers destroyed, controlled or peaceful? As I said, just a thought Bioware might have been considering for ME NEXT, however unlikely.

Reapers vs Leviathans would be even cooler imo. Although Leviathans might not be capable of space battles and if not then I retract my statement in shame. Differentiating between the glowing green/blue reapers and the others would be a bit silly though if they handled it like in the extended cut.

On a related note I don't know whether I would want bioware to include the meta-turian evolution plot in a first contact war game. I think it would be nice to have a clean break from the original trilogy with it's focus on the reapers.

Modifié par Guanxii, 09 janvier 2014 - 04:46 .

[Big Destiny]

how about we feature new antagonists instead of the same ****ty ones from the previous trilogy.

[Guanxii]

Big Destiny wrote...

how about we feature new antagonists instead of the same ****ty ones from the previous trilogy.

There could be a whole bunch old and new foes and heroes on both sides.

[Maximillion46]

Big Destiny wrote...

how about we feature new antagonists instead of the same ****ty ones from the previous trilogy.

Yes, but that's probably what Bioware is struggling with... what kind of antagonists (and what scale of a threat) would the fans want/accept?

[wolfsite]

Maximillion46 wrote...

Big Destiny wrote...

how about we feature new antagonists instead of the same ****ty ones from the previous trilogy.

Yes, but that's probably what Bioware is struggling with... what kind of antagonists (and what scale of a threat) would the fans want/accept?

This question is impossible to answer as, if anything recent events have shown, the fans are extremely divisive in what they want to see.

[Maximillion46]

wolfsite wrote...

This question is impossible to answer as, if anything recent events have shown, the fans are extremely divisive in what they want to see.

I propose... a massive poll!

[RangerSG]

Artifex_Imperius wrote...

why no first contact war? the most important part is first contact.

a great thing to see is how humans met the council.

but the most exciting part is we get to kill Turians! < something a lot of BSN does not want to see.

At first glance, I liked the FCW prequel idea. But the problem, as noted, is the lore already makes it clear the First Contact War only lasted a few months. There's not enough conflict to sustain a game. At least not without a retcon of the lore.

Now the rachni wars, IMHO, would be fascinating. No humans, but you would have the other Council races, plus IIRC the Quarians were space-faring then and an associate race. It would be fascinating to see how different they were before the Morning War. You'd also have the Krogan uplift as part of the story. The lore doesn't say if other races were extinguished by the Rachni, so you would even have an opening to introduce some new minor races that way. 

Given that I think any ME4 game is going to have to go either 200 years into the future, or reach into the past before humanity became a space-faring race, I'd say there's enough potential in the Rachni Wars to see a game distinct from the first story. That doesn't mean I'd like it better than a sequel story, just that if they did choose a prequel, that would be the era that would be most intriguing.

Modifié par RangerSG, 10 janvier 2014 - 10:30 .

[SPACE_GREASER]

Creative but a bad idea. That story line is doomed to be another "Shepard 2.0". dont get me wrong, Theres an infinite number of ways you could go about creating a mass effect prequiel on earth. (give incite into how people lived, day to day problems the general populace might face, social commentary, what was it like to live with biotics at a time that it was not fully understood?, etc.)
   
But I'll just say it, in the last 5 years bioware has so far proven to be incapable of running with a story line that is in-depth, creative, "non-linear". They keep doin this biotic commando run'n gun super soldier BS that frankly SUCKS now. My concern is that if the context of the next game allows for a similar character, bioware will snatch it up and not give any other thought to a game that focusses on other areas and ideas of the mass effect "universe".
   
the trilogy has lore that rivals even that of Alien, Starwars, Startrek, etc. But for some reason bioware has chosen to focuss soley on aspects of all out war and petty character 'relationships' on the side. it reaches a point where it's just LAME.

Modifié par neo7732, 10 janvier 2014 - 11:46 .