168 réponses à ce sujet

[O_OotherSide]

Adanu wrote...

Templars only work in close quarters, and have tended to hunt down solo mages. They have *never* had to fight a whole army of mages before.

Logic, use it.

And who is more likely to get support from any nations/city states arm? The seemingly respected military arm from the biggest religion or the untrusted mages that most are afraid of? Its going to be a lot harder for mages to find safe harbor and support then Templars. All they have is their circles, which Templars have destroyed, in the past, with the right of annulment. The only place they could get a fortress is tevinter, since I really doubt any nation would take kindly to a group of unruly mages building an army.

I also saw a group of Templars fight a pretty sizable group of mages at the end of DA2. We have no idea how far their dispel effects work story wise either or how well their armor can block spells. If there is a full out war they would probably put some effort into making their equipment more magic resistant I also doubt many mages have any military logistics experience at all.

So, Templars would have more support and experience, while mages only have magic. Which the Templars are designed to counter...

Logic, use it.

Modifié par O_OotherSide, 02 janvier 2014 - 06:16 .

[Fredward]

Have you guys played the games? Templars die easily enough when you throw a fireball at their face. I imagine the ones who can totally stop a mage's ability to cast or make themselves immune to magic are few and far between. Look at how easily Jowan escaped when he tried. And he was Jowan. It was more templar mystique and propaganda of the Circle that kept the mages in check and less any actual ability on the part of the templars.

[HiroVoid]

Logically-speaking(and by logic, I mean narratively), the conflict's going to have to go in a way that neither side is going to have an overwhelming advantage.

[O_OotherSide]

Its hard to go by gameplay though, 4 people can slaughter Darkspawn/bloodmages/abominations/dragons/dwarfs/elfs/humans/rhyming tress/werewolves and an archdemon no problem.

[Fredward]

O_OotherSide wrote...

Its hard to go by gameplay though, 4 people can slaughter Darkspawn/bloodmages/abominations/dragons/dwarfs/elfs/humans/rhyming tress/werewolves and an archdemon no problem.

You're right ofc, so lemme approach this from a different angle. Templars need a near constant stream of lyrium to keep their powers going, this is in peacetime when there's just an off chance of a mage throwing lightning at them. In war this need is going to increase. Couple that with the fact that the templar order has fractured at least into three different groups (loyalists, Lambert's and junkies) and all of them will be gunning for the lyrium trade and the mages will no doubt add disrupting the lyrium trade to their top priorities list AND factoring in that if it starts to look like the mages will get their emancipation that it will be in the dwarves best interest to drop the Chantry (and thus the templars source of easy access) and go over to the mages... Wellllll you're not going to be dealing with an army thousands strong all hyped up on lyrium, you're gonna be dealing with small, highly specialized hunter units. Terrifying but not the most practical frontline force. Useful for ambushes though.

Anyway point is that you're not going to have a large, magic-immune army. You're going to have a large group of junkies on withdrawal and a much smaller group of highly competent gorilla-type soldiers. Unless they find another, easily accessible source of lyrium. Maybe the red kind.

[HiroVoid]

So when are you hoping that it's going to look like mages are going to get emancipation then? At absolute best, that's going to take a while and is definitely not going to be anywhere near the beginning or probably the middle of the war.

Also, I'd be very careful on how you strike at the chantry rather than at the templars themselves. The templars put themselves in a vulneral position by separating itself from the chantry and if possible with a mage sympathetic divine, its absolutely a good idea to get on her good sides. The chantry still ultimately has the power of propaganda at its side with a very large influence on the minds of the populace. That can be a powerful weapon on either side of the conflict.

[Osena109]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

O_OotherSide wrote...

Its hard to go by gameplay though, 4 people can slaughter Darkspawn/bloodmages/abominations/dragons/dwarfs/elfs/humans/rhyming tress/werewolves and an archdemon no problem.

You're right ofc, so lemme approach this from a different angle. Templars need a near constant stream of lyrium to keep their powers going, this is in peacetime when there's just an off chance of a mage throwing lightning at them. In war this need is going to increase. Couple that with the fact that the templar order has fractured at least into three different groups (loyalists, Lambert's and junkies) and all of them will be gunning for the lyrium trade and the mages will no doubt add disrupting the lyrium trade to their top priorities list AND factoring in that if it starts to look like the mages will get their emancipation that it will be in the dwarves best interest to drop the Chantry (and thus the templars source of easy access) and go over to the mages... Wellllll you're not going to be dealing with an army thousands strong all hyped up on lyrium, you're gonna be dealing with small, highly specialized hunter units. Terrifying but not the most practical frontline force. Useful for ambushes though.

Anyway point is that you're not going to have a large, magic-immune army. You're going to have a large group of junkies on withdrawal and a much smaller group of highly competent gorilla-type soldiers. Unless they find another, easily accessible source of lyrium. Maybe the red kind.

The Dwarves best interest is to stay with the Chantry   the mages do not have the resource's the chantry has think of all those tithes each chantry gets form nobles and farmers and such  the dwarves would be  brain dead to support  mages that would be little more then drifters

[KainD]

Osena109 wrote...

The Dwarves best interest is to stay with the Chantry   the mages do not have the resource's the chantry has think of all those tithes each chantry gets form nobles and farmers and such  the dwarves would be  brain dead to support  mages that would be little more then drifters

He said mages will disrupt the lirium trade, which they totally will. 

[HiroVoid]

The best things that mages can offer dwarves is their own men to help fight darkspawn.

[HiroVoid]

KainD wrote...

Osena109 wrote...

The Dwarves best interest is to stay with the Chantry   the mages do not have the resource's the chantry has think of all those tithes each chantry gets form nobles and farmers and such  the dwarves would be  brain dead to support  mages that would be little more then drifters

He said mages will disrupt the lirium trade, which they totally will. 

But what if the chantry/templars plan on the lyrium trade being disrupted and instead plan a trap for the invading mages?

[KainD]

HiroVoid wrote...

But what if the chantry/templars plan on the lyrium trade being disrupted and instead plan a trap for the invading mages?

''Boom'' - Sandal.

[O_OotherSide]

Or if the mages plan of making it look like they are invading the trap when really its a trap for the fake trap!?

[KainD]

MasterScribe wrote...

The dwarves need the mages.

Without mages, the templars become obsolete.

The lyrium trade depends on the proliferation of mages.

They can always trade with Tevinter. 

[Osena109]

HiroVoid wrote...

KainD wrote...

Osena109 wrote...

The Dwarves best interest is to stay with the Chantry   the mages do not have the resource's the chantry has think of all those tithes each chantry gets form nobles and farmers and such  the dwarves would be  brain dead to support  mages that would be little more then drifters

He said mages will disrupt the lirium trade, which they totally will. 

But what if the chantry/templars plan on the lyrium trade being disrupted and instead plan a trap for the invading mages?

This  you have to to think the Chantry has stood for vary long time exalted marchs in the like you think  few mages are gonna win your sorely mistaken

[HiroVoid]

O_OotherSide wrote...

Or if the mages plan of making it look like they are invading the trap when really its a trap for the fake trap!?

That's why they've been training templars in trap-making now.

[Fredward]

Osena109 wrote...
The Dwarves best interest is to stay with the Chantry   the mages do not have the resource's the chantry has think of all those tithes each chantry gets form nobles and farmers and such  the dwarves would be  brain dead to support  mages that would be little more then drifters

Except that it doesn't. The dwarves best interest lay with the Tranquil. So if it seems like mages will be getting their emancipation that interest either shifts in the long term or the short term. I don't know whether the Tranquil would decide to stay with the Chantry or whether they left with the other mages BUT the point remains that in the case of mage emancipation the dwarves would have to go to the mages since they're the only ones who can become tranquil. It'd be a deal with the devil in some ways since the mages would have to guarantee that the practice of tranquility would continue, but that's not a bad thing, in some cases it IS necessary. Shifting the lyrium trade would be a huge victory. Of course this is all dependant on getting the dwarves to believe that the mages will get emancipated, if they start losing right out of the gate and don't stop then the dwarves will be beyond stupid to betray the Chantry.

HiroVoid wrote...
Also,
I'd be very careful on how you strike at the chantry rather than at the
templars themselves. The templars put themselves in a vulneral
position by separating itself from the chantry and if possible with a
mage sympathetic divine, its absolutely a good idea to get on her good
sides. The chantry still ultimately has the power of propaganda at its
side with a very large influence on the minds of the populace. That can
be a powerful weapon on either side of the conflict.

Much as I'd like to render the Chantry itself a smoldering ruin you're right. It'd be stupid and shortsighted. What mages would really have to do is find someplace sympathetic to establish themselves, like Alistair, he's already shown himself to be less than a friend of the Chantry, allowing the mages sanctuary in Fereldan would give him major negotiating power. Anoura would see the benefits as well, they'd have the only army with mages for one thing. For another folding a large group of mages into the population has long term benefits as well, their loyalty would be to the only place that offered them succor during their persecution. Fereldan could go from dog land to next major power through one decision. I think Fereldan would be a good place to look for shelter in either case. If Alistair rules he'll see it as the "right" decision and if Anoura rules she'll see it as the smart decision.

Anyway once there and established some group of the mages should be sent on a hearts & minds campaign. Clinics opened in every major city in Fereldan. Mages helping heal blightscarred land, or failing that amplifying crop yields. Shown such salient examples of what mages are capable of you'd win over the populace easily enough. The news would spread and undermine the Chantry (and especially the templars) ideological dominance in other areas. I'm rambling. I've made up a whole mage war strategy in the last 15 minutes (WHOOO CAFFEINE) but my point basically is that it would be very feasible to shift the dwarves loyalty. Your negotation would be with the merchant cast and as merchant's it's their perogative to see the big picture. And after all you don't actually have to be winning, you just have to get the dwarves to believe that you are.

[Osena109]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Osena109 wrote...
The Dwarves best interest is to stay with the Chantry   the mages do not have the resource's the chantry has think of all those tithes each chantry gets form nobles and farmers and such  the dwarves would be  brain dead to support  mages that would be little more then drifters

Except that it doesn't. The dwarves best interest lay with the Tranquil. So if it seems like mages will be getting their emancipation that interest either shifts in the long term or the short term. I don't know whether the Tranquil would decide to stay with the Chantry or whether they left with the other mages BUT the point remains that in the case of mage emancipation the dwarves would have to go to the mages since they're the only ones who can become tranquil. It'd be a deal with the devil in some ways since the mages would have to guarantee that the practice of tranquility would continue, but that's not a bad thing, in some cases it IS necessary. Shifting the lyrium trade would be a huge victory. Of course this is all dependant on getting the dwarves to believe that the mages will get emancipated, if they start losing right out of the gate and don't stop then the dwarves will be beyond stupid to betray the Chantry.

HiroVoid wrote...
Also,
I'd be very careful on how you strike at the chantry rather than at the
templars themselves. The templars put themselves in a vulneral
position by separating itself from the chantry and if possible with a
mage sympathetic divine, its absolutely a good idea to get on her good
sides. The chantry still ultimately has the power of propaganda at its
side with a very large influence on the minds of the populace. That can
be a powerful weapon on either side of the conflict.

Much as I'd like to render the Chantry itself a smoldering ruin you're right. It'd be stupid and shortsighted. What mages would really have to do is find someplace sympathetic to establish themselves, like Alistair, he's already shown himself to be less than a friend of the Chantry, allowing the mages sanctuary in Fereldan would give him major negotiating power. Anoura would see the benefits as well, they'd have the only army with mages for one thing. For another folding a large group of mages into the population has long term benefits as well, their loyalty would be to the only place that offered them succor during their persecution. Fereldan could go from dog land to next major power through one decision. I think Fereldan would be a good place to look for shelter in either case. If Alistair rules he'll see it as the "right" decision and if Anoura rules she'll see it as the smart decision.

Anyway once there and established some group of the mages should be sent on a hearts & minds campaign. Clinics opened in every major city in Fereldan. Mages helping heal blightscarred land, or failing that amplifying crop yields. Shown such salient examples of what mages are capable of you'd win over the populace easily enough. The news would spread and undermine the Chantry (and especially the templars) ideological dominance in other areas. I'm rambling. I've made up a whole mage war strategy in the last 15 minutes (WHOOO CAFFEINE) but my point basically is that it would be very feasible to shift the dwarves loyalty. Your negotation would be with the merchant cast and as merchant's it's their perogative to see the big picture. And after all you don't actually have to be winning, you just have to get the dwarves to believe that you are.

I give Bahalen the kingdom he is what orzammar needs  and  I think most people give him the kingdom too i don't think Bahalen would support the mage's due to the fact the backlash the dwarves would face in the long run  he orzammar needs those trade deals with the surface not just lyiurm is traded with the outside iron steal just to name a few things Bahalen would have to be insance to bite the hand that feeds his people

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Osena109 wrote...
I give Bahalen the kingdom he is what orzammar needs  and  I think most people give him the kingdom too i don't think Bahalen would support the mage's due to the fact the backlash the dwarves would face in the long run  he orzammar needs those trade deals with the surface not just lyiurm is traded with the outside iron steal just to name a few things Bahalen would have to be insance to bite the hand that feeds his people

Knowing Bhelen, he'll probably, or at least try to find a way to, supply both sides during the war. That way regardless of who wins, he wins as well.

[Sylvius the Mad]

O_OotherSide wrote...

Its hard to go by gameplay though

Gameplay is the only available basis for quantitative comparison.

[Osena109]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Osena109 wrote...
I give Bahalen the kingdom he is what orzammar needs  and  I think most people give him the kingdom too i don't think Bahalen would support the mage's due to the fact the backlash the dwarves would face in the long run  he orzammar needs those trade deals with the surface not just lyiurm is traded with the outside iron steal just to name a few things Bahalen would have to be insance to bite the hand that feeds his people

Knowing Bhelen, he'll probably, or at least try to find a way to, supply both sides during the war. That way regardless of who wins, he wins as well.

No i Don't think Bahlen would  try knowing the longterm outcome the mage's will fail in the long run

[TheKomandorShepard]

leaguer of one wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Yes if they want did realistic way that would look that war because templars have advantage
in almost every aspect so unless every mage turn into abomnation (and burn world) or blood mage mages should be done. On other side they might do that unrealistic way well it is game and well templars aren't very competent so well...

No the don't.  If that were true Tevnter would of been taken down by the marches years ago. The templars have a big flaw, a dependency on Lyrium. Cut off their Lyrium and in a month the war would be over.

Well not quite true mages aren't only forces that tevinter have and we go into blood magic territory and country that will use even most di**** means to defeat the enemy.

Teventors strongests fighting force is made of spell swords. Mages who fight with swords. Sorry, but that tops templars.

Well some yes but many not ignoring that mages who fight with swords in tevinter well soldiers are probably at least well trained in combat and warfare and probably are in good physical condition trained in things that circle mages don't have even access add to that blood magic.Circle mages are weak physically they know what templars want them to know they have no idea how world works best example is emil in third act.I don't even mention that mage who fights in close combat (like arcane warrior) is even more doomed that long-range mages because simple templar will turn off his magic and well have advantage over mage because he may harm him in close range
So lets go with that

Templars
-)Abilities to fight with mages and turn off their spells
-)They are trained in combat and strategy
-) have better equipment
-)they have peoples support as they are seen as heros by thedas or at leas reputation alawyas better than mages have
-)They outnumber mages
-)Most of them are fanatics what works in their favor because they are more stable as group.

Mages
-)weak magic (many mages can't even catch up to regual trained mercenaries)
-)Lack of any combat traning and knowledge about war
-)Lack of any resources unless they start steal and attack others.
-)Lets say that if they were indifferent they would have much better reputation they have in thedas now 
-)they are minority
-)They are extremely unstable and divided first part that many will fall to demons or just turn insane like most mages in kirkwall ,second part because are divided ideologically some will just betray other mages for profit or because of fear others will try escape or give up to templars.Mages are civilians not soldiers they should quickly fall apart because they are nothing mroe than prey in this war. 


   

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Osena109 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Osena109 wrote...
I give Bahalen the kingdom he is what orzammar needs  and  I think most people give him the kingdom too i don't think Bahalen would support the mage's due to the fact the backlash the dwarves would face in the long run  he orzammar needs those trade deals with the surface not just lyiurm is traded with the outside iron steal just to name a few things Bahalen would have to be insance to bite the hand that feeds his people

Knowing Bhelen, he'll probably, or at least try to find a way to, supply both sides during the war. That way regardless of who wins, he wins as well.

No i Don't think Bahlen would  try knowing the longterm outcome the mage's will fail in the long run

"I'm truly sorry about those of my kind who were supplying the mages up on the surface. With all that is happening here, it must have slipped through the cracks. I promise that I have found those responsible and dealt with them accordingly." - Bhelen explaining to Templars if the win the war. 

Maybe not that exactly, but we all know Bhelen has a silver tongue sharp enough to punture plate armor. He'll have a plan ready to go for each way the situation turns.

[Osena109]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Osena109 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Osena109 wrote...
I give Bahalen the kingdom he is what orzammar needs  and  I think most people give him the kingdom too i don't think Bahalen would support the mage's due to the fact the backlash the dwarves would face in the long run  he orzammar needs those trade deals with the surface not just lyiurm is traded with the outside iron steal just to name a few things Bahalen would have to be insance to bite the hand that feeds his people

Knowing Bhelen, he'll probably, or at least try to find a way to, supply both sides during the war. That way regardless of who wins, he wins as well.

No i Don't think Bahlen would  try knowing the longterm outcome the mage's will fail in the long run

"I'm truly sorry about those of my kind who were supplying the mages up on the surface. With all that is happening here, it must have slipped through the cracks. I promise that I have found those responsible and dealt with them accordingly." - Bhelen explaining to Templars if the win the war. 

Maybe not that exactly, but we all know Bhelen has a silver tongue sharp enough to punture plate armor. He'll have a plan ready to go for each way the situation turns.

Yes i think there truth to what you say lol