168 réponses à ce sujet

[Star fury]

I don't see how a situation when one side that has to run all way in order to strike with a sword, while the other side can do everything to kill from afar can be called one sided. Mage can kill templars with all conventional magic arsenal - elemental magic(fireball, freezing, lightnings), spirit, arcane etc., then there is a blood magic that templars can't even counter lulz.

Bigger numbers of Templar Order can be a problem though, on a nightmare going to the Tower of Magi with a high level mage was a horrendous experience - high level templars used to wipe the floor with my mage thanks to Holy Smite.

Second Apocalypse series of R. Scott Bakker dealt with mages vs mundanes problem, there mages could easily exterminate whole armies and only anti-magic artifacts(Chorae) kept them in check.

Modifié par Star fury, 02 janvier 2014 - 01:21 .

[Wulfram]

I think the Templars must have a military advantage, otherwise the right of annullment would be a dead letter. And they seem to win quite easily at Kirkwall.

I'd see the mages as mostly avoiding pitched battles, keeping their heads down, forcing the Templars to scatter to hunt them and then defeating them in detail. At least unless and until they can find a major ally who can provide them with conventional forces.

Modifié par Wulfram, 02 janvier 2014 - 10:14 .

[Nightdragon8]

I think people are over looking a few things... just because they are immune to magic as in lighting cold fire, doesn't mean they are immune to lets say rocks trees that end up getting hurled at them.

Also as otehr have said cutting off supply lines would really screw them over.

Also if you think about it, in Freldan why where the templars unable to take back the tower?

[Lotion Soronarr]

eluvianix wrote...

IllusiveManJr wrote...

I'm trying to figure out what that censored word is...

H*tler?
or
N*zi?

Hitler is censored?
Seriously?
A man's name?


The world has truly gone crazy...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Asunder (and the current timeline) end with a mage army being hauled up in an old fort of some king, with the templars besiegeing and starving them out?
The entire situation seems hopeless for the mages-

[Magdalena11]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Asunder (and the current timeline) end with a mage army being hauled up in an old fort of some king, with the templars besiegeing and starving them out?
The entire situation seems hopeless for the mages-

Only in your mind.  The mages in Asunder were broken out of jail and the book and timeline ends with them assembling and electing to sever their ties with the chantry.  The templars and seekers severed their ties to the chantry as well.

I think a minority of both groups would like to wipe the other off the face of Thedas.  The majority, I feel, just want to get on with their lives.  I don't think either side has a clear-cut advantage.  Templars are created to control mages but without lyrium they're just well-trained and well-equipped soldiers.  Mages are limited by their mana supply but they don't rely on something they have to get from the black market.

[Dean_the_Young]

Lotion, you're probably confusing Asunder with the Grey Warden Keep in DAO. Which did have a similar scenario, in that defenders (including mages) were put under siege.

[Navasha]

You guys aren't exactly thinking outside the box much here. Mages tend to be smart and cunning.
Why attack Templars that are immune to magic directly? However, Templars are also all addicted to lyrium. A weakness.

Attack the Lyrium supplies and supply chains which aren't immune to magic. More lyrium for mages also means greater magical ability and mana pools. Templars crippled by addiction withdrawal. No lyrium means no magic resistance.

Seems the war would be a bit more one-sided now it the other way to me.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The real question is - the Templars are not a military force, more like a special forces group. And the Mages are a bunch of civilians with no combat training (by and large) who just happen to be able to shoot lightning out of their hands.

Compare that to the armies of nearly any other nation. What chance does this conflict really stand to do any major damage to Thedas? Ferelden could just march an army in and curb stomp either side.

Good point here.

There are alot of factors:

Numbers
Organization
Firepower
Charismatic leaders 
Logistics
Morale

The mages simply has firepower alone, which isnt enough. The circles makes them divided and controlled without leadership. 

For the mages to become a ruling faction they would need a charismatic, smart and powerful leader to rally them all. They would need to get organized. They would need some sort of stronghold or city of their own. They would need food, water and other resources. Being rebelling mages, they are not likely to get economical support from others either.

[The Elder King]

@Lotion Soronnar: Lambert's plan was to lay a siege to the mages in the Adamant Fortress and probably starve them, but the attack didn't start in Asunder.

[Star fury]

Navasha wrote...

You guys aren't exactly thinking outside the box much here. Mages tend to be smart and cunning.
Why attack Templars that are immune to magic directly? However, Templars are also all addicted to lyrium. A weakness.

Attack the Lyrium supplies and supply chains which aren't immune to magic. More lyrium for mages also means greater magical ability and mana pools. Templars crippled by addiction withdrawal. No lyrium means no magic resistance.

Seems the war would be a bit more one-sided now it the other way to me.

Considering the fact that the Chantry controls all lyrium supply and templars have severed all ties with them, it would be hard to attack something which doesn't even exist.

Modifié par Star fury, 02 janvier 2014 - 03:09 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Navasha: Mages in other stories are smart and cunning because they need to earn their magic.... I have seen nothing in the DA lore that has suggested that being a mage, makes anyone who happens to be a mage, any more smart or cunning.

I believe that this conflict should be a hugely one sided fight - as I've said before, not unlike Spartacus.

- The Templars "should" (I can't say what they will do in a story) assault every Circle - but let the mages leave. Confiscate or destroy the materials within and either raze or turn the Circle buildings into encampments.

This would be my biggest priority. Even in defeat - the destruction of the Circles and any knowledge contained within - would ultimately cripple the mages of Thedas for hundreds of years.

- Scattered mages roaming the countryside might be harder to track down - if they didn't resort to becoming slobbering blood mages and abominations every five seconds. If the leaders of whatever nations these mages find themselves in didn't do something - then the peasantry would surely rise up against a group of people that burn down villages every time they have a bad day.

- These mages are shut ins. They don't know how to be anything BUT shut ins who practice their little mutant powers and whine about being forced to practice their little mutant powers. They would be utterly incapable of fielding any sort of real army - book experience < real experience.

- As for Lyrium - the red templars obviously solved that problem somehow. I'm not sure they're the main templar faction (and will be disappointed when they're shown to be) - but lyrium is obviously not an issue for them currently.

Also - the Chantry has no need for lyrium anymore - so the dwarves ARE going to sell it someone. They're not going to just say: "Oh, well - you Chantry ladies don't want it... so we'll make sure we don't sell it ever again until you do."

And the Chantry isn't going to be spending a fortune right now JUST to block the lyrium trade.

- Entire camps of mages will be feasted on by demons - not just those new demons that are now roaming the landscape, but the ones still behind the Fade that see them as giant nightlights and what to hollow them out and turn them into puppets.

Sure, templars and mundanes will suffer too - but "why" would demons focus on those groups first?

====

I believe that the Templar and Mages will both largely be crushed at the end of Inquisition.

It gives Bioware a chance to rebuild Thedas from the ground up.

But - were this a real "rebellion" - my money would be on the Templars easily.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 02 janvier 2014 - 03:15 .

[Lulupab]

You also forget that mages can become stronger 100x times more than Templars if given Lyrium. Templars train for like 10 years to use a little bit of magic themselves by using lyrium.

[Veruin]

Rassler wrote...

You also forget that mages can become stronger 100x times more than Templars if given Lyrium. Templars train for like 10 years to use a little bit of magic themselves by using lyrium.

So, where exactly are they going to get this lyrium?  They don't have any funds to purchase it fron Dwarves and they can't make any of their money through enchantments because enchantments require lyrium in the first place.

[Lulupab]

Veruin wrote...

Rassler wrote...

You also forget that mages can become stronger 100x times more than Templars if given Lyrium. Templars train for like 10 years to use a little bit of magic themselves by using lyrium.

So, where exactly are they going to get this lyrium?  They don't have any funds to purchase it fron Dwarves and they can't make any of their money through enchantments because enchantments require lyrium in the first place.

The chantry used to provide Templars with Lyrium and now it won't anymore. Templars won't find any easy Lyrium anymore and most of the recruits will starve for it. T best omly the full knights will get some

The last city of Dwarves is in Ferelden where I think will probably support mags more than anywhere seeing how perfect their circle was compared to other places. Also doesn't Ferelden Circle became an autonomy and indendent from chantry before events of Kirkwall? There you have it.

[Veruin]

Rassler wrote...

The chantry used to provide Templars with Lyrium and now it won't anymore. Templars won't find any easy Lyrium anymore and most of the recruits will starve for it. T best omly the full knights will get some

The last city of Dwarves is in Ferelden where I think will probably support mags more than anywhere seeing how perfect their circle was compared to other places. Also doesn't Ferelden Circle became an autonomy and indendent from chantry before events of Kirkwall? There you have it.

We are discussing mages, not templars.

How do you get that leap in logic?  Why would the dwarves support the mages just because they are under Fereldan?  Why would the dwarves care about how "perfect" the fereldan circle is?  No, the circle doesn't get independant.  Alistairs asked the chantry and they said no.

[DKJaigen]

Star fury wrote...

Navasha wrote...

You guys aren't exactly thinking outside the box much here. Mages tend to be smart and cunning.
Why attack Templars that are immune to magic directly? However, Templars are also all addicted to lyrium. A weakness.

Attack the Lyrium supplies and supply chains which aren't immune to magic. More lyrium for mages also means greater magical ability and mana pools. Templars crippled by addiction withdrawal. No lyrium means no magic resistance.

Seems the war would be a bit more one-sided now it the other way to me.

Considering the fact that the Chantry controls all lyrium supply and templars have severed all ties with them, it would be hard to attack something which doesn't even exist.

Then the templars will suffer critical existance failure. Without the stuff the average templar will likely be unable to fight after a few weeks. That said mages  ,even by modern day standards, are a guerrilla fighter dream come true. Alos mages can easily employ scorched eart tactics and leave an army of demons in every area that will dwindle the numbers of the templars.

But the entire templa vs mage debate is not worth debating but its very clear that something is twisting events in the shadows. 

[SgtSteel91]

I'm holding my opinion on who's going to win or who has the advantage until Inquisition comes out and I see for myself where Mages and Templars stand.

[andy6915]

Veruin wrote...

Rassler wrote...

You also forget that mages can become stronger 100x times more than Templars if given Lyrium. Templars train for like 10 years to use a little bit of magic themselves by using lyrium.

So, where exactly are they going to get this lyrium?  They don't have any funds to purchase it fron Dwarves and they can't make any of their money through enchantments because enchantments require lyrium in the first place.

There's entrances to the Deep Roads everywhere, they can get it themselves. Tranquil are immune to lyrium in case you forgot, so they could collect it without risk of death. And I'm sure plenty of Tranquil are on the mages side.

[rasloveszev]

EJ107 wrote...

ziloe wrote...

The fade is in the real world now, which gives the mages a better advantage regardless of their background.

It could also dramatically increase the risk of possesion, causing a large percentage of mages to become abominations. 

The only reason they were possessed is to allow demons to escape the fade. The Fade is in the real world! 

[Veruin]

andy69156915 wrote...

There's entrances to the Deep Roads everywhere, they can get it themselves. Tranquil are immune to lyrium in case you forgot, so they could collect it without risk of death. And I'm sure plenty of Tranquil are on the mages side.

So, who's going to protect those tranquil from darkspawn and other creatures?  Can't be mages, because I'm fairly certain mages suffer when in the presence of raw lyrium.  How will they mine it?  Can't use magic for that either.  It's a bit funny how pro mages complain abouit tranquil being mindless templar slaves, but then have no problem doing the same if it benefits them.

Tranquil are on the side of logic.  They are on no one's side.

[andy6915]

Veruin wrote...
So, who's going to protect those tranquil from darkspawn and other creatures?  Can't be mages, because I'm fairly certain mages suffer when in the presence of raw lyrium.  How will they mine it?  Can't use magic for that either.  It's a bit funny how pro mages complain abouit tranquil being mindless templar slaves, but then have no problem doing the same if it benefits them.

Tranquil are on the side of logic.  They are on no one's side.

Really? Mages can't even be near raw lyrium? So is that why mages in DA all can't enter the Deep Roads, because there's lyrium everywhwere and literally growing out of the walls in raw form... Oh wait, that doesn't happen.

Mining shouldn't be hard, it's called a pickaxe.

The Tranquil are already stuck being Tranquil and rhe cure screws them up bad. The TEMPLARS are the ones who turned them into mindless beings for their own benefit, mages are just using an injustice already done to them by Templars to strike back.

Tranquil are on the side of logic. But some will decide mages are the more logical people to follow than the Templars are.

[Veruin]

andy69156915 wrote..

Really? Mages can't even be near raw lyrium? So is that why mages in DA all can't enter the Deep Roads, because there's lyrium everywhwere and literally growing out of the walls in raw form... Oh wait, that doesn't happen. 

Mining shouldn't be hard, it's called a pickaxe.

The Tranquil are already stuck being Tranquil and rhe cure screws them up bad. The TEMPLARS are the ones who turned them into mindless beings for their own benefit, mages are just using an injustice already done to them by Templars to strike back.

Tranquil are on the side of logic. But some will decide mages are the more logical people to follow than the Templars are.

Oh, you mean the PC companion plot armour characters?  Also, do I really need to get pictures of the deep roads?  Because it's rather obvious it's not growing everywhere.  I suppose the taint doesn't really exist either since none of our companions suffer from it, until the plot deems it so anyway.
  If it's that easy to get lyrium, why did the chantry have to buy theirs from the dwarves?  Why didn't they just go into one of the MANY cavern openings and use their tranquil to mine it for them?

Yes, which requires physical exertion which we all know mages have tons of.  Especially when a certain mage ruined the outdoor physical activities for everyone.

If they are mindless beings, how can they decide which side is more logical?  If they have no emotions and only focus on logic, unless they are told different things, they will all reach the same conclusion.

Modifié par Veruin, 02 janvier 2014 - 04:05 .

[Star fury]

DKJaigen wrote...

Then the templars will suffer critical existance failure.

Pretty much. Unless biower will not come up with some plot device that helps to avoid lyrium dependance. I guess they already did.

DKJaigen wrote...

But the
entire templa vs mage debate is not worth debating but its very clear
that something is twisting events in the shadows. 

Our resident "templars" and "mages" will be very dissappointed.

Modifié par Star fury, 02 janvier 2014 - 04:06 .

[andy6915]

No, I mean ALL THE MAGES. Bethany has no trouble, Wynne has no trouble, Morrigan has no trouble, Anders has no trouble, Velanna has no trouble, Merrill has no trouble, Darkspawn mages have no trouble, the Grey Warden in DA2's Legacy DLC has no trouble. Trying to be all "that's just lol plot armor" is a cop out because you know it proves you wrong.

Yes, a pickaxe is so so exhausting. Mages arms literally break off just from the exertions or wiping their own ass don't you know.

You can't use logic to deduce which side is objectively better to join from their point of view? Okay... I think that's just a problem you have.

Modifié par andy69156915, 02 janvier 2014 - 04:06 .