168 réponses à ce sujet

[Veruin]

andy69156915 wrote...

No, I mean ALL THE MAGES. Bethany has no trouble, Wynne has no trouble, Morrigan has no trouble, Anders has no trouble, Velanna has no trouble, Merrill has no trouble, Darkspawn mages have no trouble, the Grey Warden in DA2's Legacy DLC has no trouble. Trying to be all "that's just lol plot armor" is a cop out because you know it proves you wrong.

Yes, a pickaxe is so so exhausting. Mages arms literally break off just from the exertions or wiping their own ass don't you know.

You can't use logic to deduce which side is objectively better to join from their point of view? Okay... I think that's just a problem you have.

Companion, companion, companion, companion, companion, companion, The lead writer already stated that they don't get their magic from the fade, so lyrium likely wouldn't affect them in the first place, didn't play legacy so i can't really comment on that.  But it still sounds like he's there because of plot reasons.  If you want to disprove it, give me someone WHO ISN'T a companion or tied to the plot.  A codex or something.

Have you even swung a pickaxe?

They think in facts.  They don't think it emotions of "Oh, I feel opressed because I can't go outside".  But whatver.

Modifié par Veruin, 02 janvier 2014 - 04:11 .

[andy6915]

Companions with unique dialogue that wouldn't exist if them not being able to go down there was uncanon. And it's not always just when you bring them. There's a DA2 quest where you go back into the Deep Roads and actually meet Bethany there killing Darkspawn with other Wardens. Oh, and the Calling would be epically stupid and pointless if all mage Warden's just died from ambient lyrium exposure. Your position on this is really really REALLY stupid. Note I'm not calling YOU stupid, just your position about the Deep Roads and mages is.

Does it matter? By the way, I think magic could actually be used for it. I'm sure throwing a huge rock with magic at a piece of lyrium sticking out would break the piece off.

They need to choose a side, and they will have logically deduce which side to pick.

Modifié par andy69156915, 02 janvier 2014 - 04:13 .

[Veruin]

andy69156915 wrote...

Companions with unique dialogue that wouldn't exist if them not being able to go down there was uncanon. And it's not always just when you bring them. There's a DA2 quest where you go back into the Deep Roads and actually meet Bethany there killing Darkspawn with other Wardens. Oh, and the Calling would be epically stupid and pointless if all mage Warden's just died from ambient lyrium exposure. Your position on this is really really REALLY stupid. Note I'm not calling YOU stupid, just your position about the Deep Roads and mages is.

Does it matter? By the way, I think magic could actually be used for it. I'm sure throwing a huge rock with magic at a piece of lyrium sticking out would break the piece off.

They need to choose a side, and they will have logically deduce which side to pick.

Even if I am mistaken on the lyrium exposure, you still haven't addressed why the chantry had to buy it from the dwarves if lyrium is literally growing all over the walls and that there are so many openings to the deep roads. Why didn't they mine it for themselves and cut out the middle man?

Isn't the whole point of a warden's calling so they DIE and not become ghouls?

Possibly, but you would still need to carve out the surrounding area so you can throw said boulder.

[andy6915]

Because mining is still a pain in the butt and takes resources and Tranquil they would rather not risk when they have a seller that sells to them at excellent prices. But if the dwarves ever decided to shut up and shut down all surface trade, I'm sure the Chantry could start doing it themselves if it was the only option... And it being the only option might be true for mages in DAI.

The point is to go down killing as many Darkspawn as you can, to soften their numbers up a bit even in death. If lyrium kills you before you can even kill any Darkspawn, then the whole tradition is pointless for them.

True. But again, mages have stuff like literally earthquake powers and other earth powers, they could get by.

[Adanu]

Dwarves are resistant to Lyrium naturally and have a chance of mining it well.

Surfacers have no such luxury. they CANNOT mine it effectively without a lot mor research into better safeguards.

[Heimdall]

Veruin wrote...

Even if I am mistaken on the lyrium exposure, you still haven't addressed why the chantry had to buy it from the dwarves if lyrium is literally growing all over the walls and that there are so many openings to the deep roads. Why didn't they mine it for themselves and cut out the middle man?

Because those entrances are filled with Darkspawn and it would require a titanic effort to establish a foothold in the Deep Roads substantial enough to maintain a mining operation large enough supply the needs of the entire Templar Order and the Circles?  We're talking about a massive cost in manpower and gold here.  Its much more convenient to buy it from the dwarves than to wander around the Deep Roads looking for Lyrium veins and trying not to be killed by Darkspawn.

[TeamLexana]

leaguer of one wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Yes if they want did realistic way that would look that war because templars have advantage
in almost every aspect so unless every mage turn into abomnation (and burn world) or blood mage mages should be done. On other side they might do that unrealistic way well it is game and well templars aren't very competent so well...

No the don't.  If that were true Tevnter would of been taken down by the marches years ago. The templars have a big flaw, a dependency on Lyrium. Cut off their Lyrium and in a month the war would be over.

Do Templars really NEED Lyruim though? I thought Alistair said that they don't, it just makes their talents easier to use and he himself never used it. Templar Hawke couldn't drink the stuff ether I don't think.. at least I don't remember being able to use it, I only played a Templar Spec once for lols to torture Anders in a rivalmance, hehe. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

TeamLexana wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Yes if they want did realistic way that would look that war because templars have advantage
in almost every aspect so unless every mage turn into abomnation (and burn world) or blood mage mages should be done. On other side they might do that unrealistic way well it is game and well templars aren't very competent so well...

No the don't.  If that were true Tevnter would of been taken down by the marches years ago. The templars have a big flaw, a dependency on Lyrium. Cut off their Lyrium and in a month the war would be over.

Do Templars really NEED Lyruim though? I thought Alistair said that they don't, it just makes their talents easier to use and he himself never used it. Templar Hawke couldn't drink the stuff ether I don't think.. at least I don't remember being able to use it, I only played a Templar Spec once for lols to torture Anders in a rivalmance, hehe. 

Yes in first game that was true but then devs changed some things (well when they finish deal with first game) in setting so we have at least few retcons and now templars need lyrium.Even some old comments that devs posted are incorrect now.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 02 janvier 2014 - 09:21 .

[O_OotherSide]

How are the mages going to cut off Templar supplies? I doubt they have any knowledge of trade routes or military tactics what so ever. Also, if a group of mages suddenly attacked a trade route you would anger the nations both dwarf and human. Their biggest problem is lack of allies and experience in the outside world.

[al0u]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree on likening the Templars to a military organization, such as the Fereldan Army. This is most likely shaped from my own personal experience the military, so bear with me as I try to explain.

I see the Templars as a police force, whose mission and training are geared towards observing mages and enforcing the laws of the Chantry. On occasion when a Mage steps out of line, the Templars have the training to rein in/neutralize the Mage if deemed appropriate. Their overall training focuses on controlling one/a few possessed/rogue Mages at a time. Their orders would come from their superiors in the Templar Order, but ultimately all supplies, materiel, personnel, even pay, would come from the Chantry.

A military force, such as the Fereldan Army, would train for large engagements and the common foot soldier would be familiar with battlefield tactics, have a better grasp of the chain of command, and have the ability to lead/follow a centralized command structure. The military is organized in such a way that if one portion of command and control is destroyed, another has the ability to take up the slack until command can be re-established. I believe the Templar command structure is much more linear without much give should 1 or 2 people be eliminated from the structure, you would have an organization that looks like a chicken with its head cut off, until the structure could be re-established.

Would the Templars be able to field a full Army with all of the logistical support needed? Eventually, yes, but expect to see a "George Washington" type emerge as their leader... or a "Ho Chi Minh" if they decided to go the door-to-door-geurilla-style-find-every-mage-one-by-one-and-kill-them-all path.

Just my opinions though

[EmperorSahlertz]

I think you misudnerstand how the Ferelden army works. Ferelden does not have a standing army, and the army therefore consists mainly of mass conscripted farmers. The army is only gatehred when there is need of it, and when the army is no longer needed the army disbands. So the Ferelden army does not ahve such a structured organization as you explain (which is more akin to a highly modernized army).
If you were to remove the commanders of the Ferelden army, chances are the army would fall apart within the day, simply because it isn't a professional army.

And military command IS highly linear in its organization. That is what makes it easy for another officer to assume command if the commanding officer is incapacitated. (If the captain gets killed, the leiutenants don't start squabling amongst eachother, because they know fully well who is next in line).

[al0u]

I get how the Fereldan Army is organized, the Banns/Teyrns providing its bulk, who are generally as you said local militia lead by people like our friend Murdok. However, I think you misunderstood what I meant by the Templars being linear in organization. I meant that if you took someone out of that chain, there's a period of disorganization that wouldn't occur in a military organization.

I also get that we're talking 18 years or so after the events in DA2, which does give the Templars time to organize themselves as a military unit. However, the experience of the hierarchy in large-scale military campaigns will be limited, unlike the Fereldan army being led by someone like Loghain, who has massive experience in large scale war. I hope that clarifies what I meant.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

If we're going to try and argue 'realism' then the Templars covered in metal would all instantly be killed by one mage who would electrocute them all in three seconds. In a realistic situation it would take almost no effort at all for a group that can shot lightning out of their hands to kill group of walking lightning rods.

[al0u]

@ ISpeak

[EmperorSahlertz]

al0u wrote...

I get how the Fereldan Army is organized, the Banns/Teyrns providing its bulk, who are generally as you said local militia lead by people like our friend Murdok. However, I think you misunderstood what I meant by the Templars being linear in organization. I meant that if you took someone out of that chain, there's a period of disorganization that wouldn't occur in a military organization.

I also get that we're talking 18 years or so after the events in DA2, which does give the Templars time to organize themselves as a military unit. However, the experience of the hierarchy in large-scale military campaigns will be limited, unlike the Fereldan army being led by someone like Loghain, who has massive experience in large scale war. I hope that clarifies what I meant.

But that is exactly what wouldn't happen. If a Knight-Commander dies, then there is a clear line of succession for the Templars BECAUSE of their linear command structure.
On the other hand, if for example Loghain were to unexpectedly die, the entire Fereldan army would likely disintegrate, because it would no longer be clear who was in command.

[TheKomandorShepard]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

If we're going to try and argue 'realism' then the Templars covered in metal would all instantly be killed by one mage who would electrocute them all in three seconds. In a realistic situation it would take almost no effort at all for a group that can shot lightning out of their hands to kill group of walking lightning rods.

Well not if they have own magic that turn off lighting or just neutralize that.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

If we're going to try and argue 'realism' then the Templars covered in metal would all instantly be killed by one mage who would electrocute them all in three seconds. In a realistic situation it would take almost no effort at all for a group that can shot lightning out of their hands to kill group of walking lightning rods.

Well not if they have own magic that turn off lighting or just neutralize that.

I was unaware the Templars can think faster than electricity. Since the Templar magic nullification has always been portrayed as a conscious effort they'd all have to think faster than the mage or they'd all instantly die.

Not to mention that 'realistically' mages wouldn't be physically weak unarmored people. They'd all be like the Tevinter mages who are armored up just like their Templar counterparts. Since 'realistically' there's nothing stopping a mage from also working to become physically strong or wearing armor. Ever mage should 'realistically' be an arcane mage because there's nothing actually stopping a mage from being able to do everything a mundane can do plus magic.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

If we're going to try and argue 'realism' then the Templars covered in metal would all instantly be killed by one mage who would electrocute them all in three seconds. In a realistic situation it would take almost no effort at all for a group that can shot lightning out of their hands to kill group of walking lightning rods.

Well not if they have own magic that turn off lighting or just neutralize that.

I was unaware the Templars can think faster than electricity. Since the Templar magic nullification has always been portrayed as a conscious effort they'd all have to think faster than the mage or they'd all instantly die.

The armor could have an insulating layer to it. 

[Martyr1777]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

al0u wrote...

I get how the Fereldan Army is organized, the Banns/Teyrns providing its bulk, who are generally as you said local militia lead by people like our friend Murdok. However, I think you misunderstood what I meant by the Templars being linear in organization. I meant that if you took someone out of that chain, there's a period of disorganization that wouldn't occur in a military organization.

I also get that we're talking 18 years or so after the events in DA2, which does give the Templars time to organize themselves as a military unit. However, the experience of the hierarchy in large-scale military campaigns will be limited, unlike the Fereldan army being led by someone like Loghain, who has massive experience in large scale war. I hope that clarifies what I meant.

But that is exactly what wouldn't happen. If a Knight-Commander dies, then there is a clear line of succession for the Templars BECAUSE of their linear command structure.
On the other hand, if for example Loghain were to unexpectedly die, the entire Fereldan army would likely disintegrate, because it would no longer be clear who was in command.

I think the point they are getting at is more the command structure doesn't know HOW to command when it comes to large scale military action. I would agree that the Templars are more like a police force than a military force.

So what does a police force know of logistics in the field for a large army. What do they know of large scale tactics, formations, control and communication. They are used to guarding a tower and sending out small 'hunting' parties looking for apostates.

Really in none of the lore have I heard anything about a Templar army. I've not gotten into any detail about the Exalted Marches, but even then I get the feeling Templars are more of a supporting force then a primary army component. But other then a March then it's always just them standing around the tower they work at or a group no bigger then a handful in the field.

I mean read Stolen Throne, the Fereldans had Wilhem (or whatever) slinging fireballs every battle, the Orlisian never once had even a small Templar contingent. Maybe that can be attributed to just plot holes or bad writing. But still, if they are at all used to seeing battlefield duty I think we'd have heard about something.

[Gold Dragon]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

If we're going to try and argue 'realism' then the Templars covered in metal would all instantly be killed by one mage who would electrocute them all in three seconds. In a realistic situation it would take almost no effort at all for a group that can shot lightning out of their hands to kill group of walking lightning rods.

Well not if they have own magic that turn off lighting or just neutralize that.

I was unaware the Templars can think faster than electricity. Since the Templar magic nullification has always been portrayed as a conscious effort they'd all have to think faster than the mage or they'd all instantly die.

The armor could have an insulating layer to it. 

Add to the fact that the Templars can not  blunt magic not specifically
directed straight at them (say, a grease spell from Origins), those Templars would have a great deal of trouble with Storm of the Century.

Or an Inferno.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Martyr1777 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

al0u wrote...

I get how the Fereldan Army is organized, the Banns/Teyrns providing its bulk, who are generally as you said local militia lead by people like our friend Murdok. However, I think you misunderstood what I meant by the Templars being linear in organization. I meant that if you took someone out of that chain, there's a period of disorganization that wouldn't occur in a military organization.

I also get that we're talking 18 years or so after the events in DA2, which does give the Templars time to organize themselves as a military unit. However, the experience of the hierarchy in large-scale military campaigns will be limited, unlike the Fereldan army being led by someone like Loghain, who has massive experience in large scale war. I hope that clarifies what I meant.

But that is exactly what wouldn't happen. If a Knight-Commander dies, then there is a clear line of succession for the Templars BECAUSE of their linear command structure.
On the other hand, if for example Loghain were to unexpectedly die, the entire Fereldan army would likely disintegrate, because it would no longer be clear who was in command.

I think the point they are getting at is more the command structure doesn't know HOW to command when it comes to large scale military action. I would agree that the Templars are more like a police force than a military force.

So what does a police force know of logistics in the field for a large army. What do they know of large scale tactics, formations, control and communication. They are used to guarding a tower and sending out small 'hunting' parties looking for apostates.

Really in none of the lore have I heard anything about a Templar army. I've not gotten into any detail about the Exalted Marches, but even then I get the feeling Templars are more of a supporting force then a primary army component. But other then a March then it's always just them standing around the tower they work at or a group no bigger then a handful in the field.

I mean read Stolen Throne, the Fereldans had Wilhem (or whatever) slinging fireballs every battle, the Orlisian never once had even a small Templar contingent. Maybe that can be attributed to just plot holes or bad writing. But still, if they are at all used to seeing battlefield duty I think we'd have heard about something.

Alistair makes it clear that the Chantry train their Templars to be an army more than guardians, and if the Orlesian had had a Tempalr contingent with them in their army, then that would ahve meant that the Chantry irrevocably supported the Orlesian Empire in the conflict. While it amy have been true that the Chantry did indeed favor the Orlesians, tehy would never amke such a blatant show of support to one side in such a conflict.

[Martyr1777]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

al0u wrote...

I get how the Fereldan Army is organized, the Banns/Teyrns providing its bulk, who are generally as you said local militia lead by people like our friend Murdok. However, I think you misunderstood what I meant by the Templars being linear in organization. I meant that if you took someone out of that chain, there's a period of disorganization that wouldn't occur in a military organization.

I also get that we're talking 18 years or so after the events in DA2, which does give the Templars time to organize themselves as a military unit. However, the experience of the hierarchy in large-scale military campaigns will be limited, unlike the Fereldan army being led by someone like Loghain, who has massive experience in large scale war. I hope that clarifies what I meant.

But that is exactly what wouldn't happen. If a Knight-Commander dies, then there is a clear line of succession for the Templars BECAUSE of their linear command structure.
On the other hand, if for example Loghain were to unexpectedly die, the entire Fereldan army would likely disintegrate, because it would no longer be clear who was in command.

I think the point they are getting at is more the command structure doesn't know HOW to command when it comes to large scale military action. I would agree that the Templars are more like a police force than a military force.

So what does a police force know of logistics in the field for a large army. What do they know of large scale tactics, formations, control and communication. They are used to guarding a tower and sending out small 'hunting' parties looking for apostates.

Really in none of the lore have I heard anything about a Templar army. I've not gotten into any detail about the Exalted Marches, but even then I get the feeling Templars are more of a supporting force then a primary army component. But other then a March then it's always just them standing around the tower they work at or a group no bigger then a handful in the field.

I mean read Stolen Throne, the Fereldans had Wilhem (or whatever) slinging fireballs every battle, the Orlisian never once had even a small Templar contingent. Maybe that can be attributed to just plot holes or bad writing. But still, if they are at all used to seeing battlefield duty I think we'd have heard about something.

Alistair makes it clear that the Chantry train their Templars to be an army more than guardians, and if the Orlesian had had a Tempalr contingent with them in their army, then that would ahve meant that the Chantry irrevocably supported the Orlesian Empire in the conflict. While it amy have been true that the Chantry did indeed favor the Orlesians, tehy would never amke such a blatant show of support to one side in such a conflict.

I don't remember any dialogue from Alistair that made it clear they were an Army. Now if you mean just his own capabilities that has nothing to do with Templars as a whole as he was an individual, an extraordinary individual just like all the companions. Raised by an Arl before going to the Chantry no less which no doubt got him some noble combat training to boot.

As for the war... you make a fair point, but at the same time we are talking about a mage outside of the circle running rampant and really with all the power he was reported to be slinging around you can't say a number of chantry/templar leaders wouldn't be thinking he was a prime candidate for posession. I'll be honest, I chalk this up mostly to plot holes.

But I still see nothing that would prove the Templars are a military organization I mean if you are right and the chantry won't pick sides in other wars then even if they are considered to be an army they never actually fight in a war so they still don't know the realities. The only possible time they actually marched would have been exactly that a March. Armies that don't have battlefield experience are always very poor armies. Besides, they've never even needed to be an army, because this seems to be the only time there has been a Mage/Templar war.

They are glorified City Watch honestly.

Modifié par Martyr1777, 03 janvier 2014 - 12:52 .

[al0u]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

al0u wrote...

I get how the Fereldan Army is organized, the Banns/Teyrns providing its bulk, who are generally as you said local militia lead by people like our friend Murdok. However, I think you misunderstood what I meant by the Templars being linear in organization. I meant that if you took someone out of that chain, there's a period of disorganization that wouldn't occur in a military organization.

I also get that we're talking 18 years or so after the events in DA2, which does give the Templars time to organize themselves as a military unit. However, the experience of the hierarchy in large-scale military campaigns will be limited, unlike the Fereldan army being led by someone like Loghain, who has massive experience in large scale war. I hope that clarifies what I meant.

But that is exactly what wouldn't happen. If a Knight-Commander dies, then there is a clear line of succession for the Templars BECAUSE of their linear command structure.
On the other hand, if for example Loghain were to unexpectedly die, the entire Fereldan army would likely disintegrate, because it would no longer be clear who was in command.

I think the point they are getting at is more the command structure doesn't know HOW to command when it comes to large scale military action. I would agree that the Templars are more like a police force than a military force.

So what does a police force know of logistics in the field for a large army. What do they know of large scale tactics, formations, control and communication. They are used to guarding a tower and sending out small 'hunting' parties looking for apostates.

Really in none of the lore have I heard anything about a Templar army. I've not gotten into any detail about the Exalted Marches, but even then I get the feeling Templars are more of a supporting force then a primary army component. But other then a March then it's always just them standing around the tower they work at or a group no bigger then a handful in the field.

I mean read Stolen Throne, the Fereldans had Wilhem (or whatever) slinging fireballs every battle, the Orlisian never once had even a small Templar contingent. Maybe that can be attributed to just plot holes or bad writing. But still, if they are at all used to seeing battlefield duty I think we'd have heard about something.

Alistair makes it clear that the Chantry train their Templars to be an army more than guardians, and if the Orlesian had had a Tempalr contingent with them in their army, then that would ahve meant that the Chantry irrevocably supported the Orlesian Empire in the conflict. While it amy have been true that the Chantry did indeed favor the Orlesians, tehy would never amke such a blatant show of support to one side in such a conflict.

It is true that Alistair says that, however I took it to mean the strictness of the military in the day to day life, not neccessarily that it (the Templars) saw themselves as a military unit. He states he likes the discipline and training of the Templars as pretty much the only thing he likes about it (which is where I drew my conclusion about the "feel" of the Templars, not the overall purpose). There are police forces within the U.S. that because of policy have the "feel" of being in the military, but they are not the military (I'm excluding specialized units within the police force, such as SWAT).

I actually think the most interesting part of DA:I will be the relationship between the Templars and the Chantry (not necessarily Templar/Mage), since the Chantry (I would assume) see the Templars as a bunch of heretics who have turned their backs on the solemn vows they took to the Maker and his beloved bride Andraste. I would also imagine the support of the every day people for Templars is worn pretty thin. If you spoke to K-C Cullen at the gallows, he tells you in no uncertain terms that recruitment is difficult at best and basically, if a Templar were running down the street on fire, people wouldn't even pee on them to help put it out. Add in that the populace is most likely still attending church and hearing whatever brand of religion their local priests are telling them, I'm sure "the Templars have turned their backs on the Maker" is in just about every sermon. 

Because of those points, I think the Templar/Chantry relationship will be extremely interesting to explore

[Martyr1777]

al0u wrote...

Because of those points, I think the Templar/Chantry relationship will be extremely interesting to explore

Very good points, I'm curious now as well.

[The Elder King]

@al0u: Asunder shown clearly that the recent events have changed at least partially the opinion of the common folks about mages since DA2. The templars will probably gain more support than you think.

Modifié par hhh89, 03 janvier 2014 - 12:58 .