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[Dave of Canada]

So if Anders dies a martyr's death, does he die one if he kills himself after helping kill all the mages to atone for the mess he started?

[The Elder King]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Dictatorship is not inherently bad, it just applies a lot of pressure to ONE ruler, isntead of to all of society. It has its pros and cons, jsut like any other form of government. It has just become a buzzword in modern times, used by the media to villify without culturally paint persons (like the words despot or tyrant would).

Leave it to the media to corrupt original intent, meaning and purpose.

I agree (and in regards of Rome, it was an Office like the others, although a special one). My point was that it isn't an honour, and, in the case of Rome, it was against the law to continue being one if the crysis passed.
Kirkwall has one ruler anyway, so the problem isn't that Meredith was ruling alone, but that she shouldn't have mantained for so long, with a block on the new viscount's election.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well.. As is all too often the case in politics and games of power, it was only wrong becasue it failed. Trust me, the nobles of Kirkwall did not complain because what she did was illegal. They complained because she took the power from them.

The Arishok really made the best description of the Kirkwall nobles:

"Look at you! Like fat dathrosi you feed and feed, and only complain when your meal is interrupted!"

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 05 janvier 2014 - 11:25 .

[Master Warder Z_]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well.. As is all too often the case in politics and games of power, it was only wrong becasue it failed. Trust me, the nobles of Kirkwall did not complain because what she did was illegal. They complained because she took the power from them.

The Arishok really made the best description of the Kirkwall nobles:

"Look at you! Like fat dathrosi you feed and feed, and only complain when your meal is interrupted!"

Hawke really did the world a favor by ending that guy ._.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Master Warder Z wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well.. As is all too often the case in politics and games of power, it was only wrong becasue it failed. Trust me, the nobles of Kirkwall did not complain because what she did was illegal. They complained because she took the power from them.

The Arishok really made the best description of the Kirkwall nobles:

"Look at you! Like fat dathrosi you feed and feed, and only complain when your meal is interrupted!"

Hawke really did the world a favor by ending that guy ._.

Be that as it may, doesn't change the fact taht the nobles complained about Meredith holding the power becasue of legality. It was simply because they didn't have any power and she did, that they complained. And in this the Arishok was spot on with his description of the bastards.

[The Elder King]

@Master Warder Z: fair enough about Caesar. My point was on the office, not the man. I misunderstood your point.
About knigthhood, I don't know who Mollrick was, so I'll take your words on him. As for the rank of Knight-Vigilant or Knight-Divine, they're ranks of the templar order, they don't mean anything outside the Order.
As for Kirkwall, Meredith already have a lot of political power at the start of the game, since people believe that Dumar is her puppet. She had a lot of power, and yet magical crimes still happened in the city. Maybe she wasn't as good as you believe. And regardless, it's not the templars' job to rule the city. They should stick on their job. And the non magical crimes are in no way under the templars' jurisdiction.
Kirkwall was indeed a complete mess. The difference between you and me is that you believe that the templar were above it, when I believe that they were right into it (as were the mages, to be clear).

Modifié par hhh89, 05 janvier 2014 - 11:33 .

[Master Warder Z_]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well.. As is all too often the case in politics and games of power, it was only wrong becasue it failed. Trust me, the nobles of Kirkwall did not complain because what she did was illegal. They complained because she took the power from them.

The Arishok really made the best description of the Kirkwall nobles:

"Look at you! Like fat dathrosi you feed and feed, and only complain when your meal is interrupted!"

Hawke really did the world a favor by ending that guy ._.

Be that as it may, doesn't change the fact taht the nobles complained about Meredith holding the power becasue of legality. It was simply because they didn't have any power and she did, that they complained. And in this the Arishok was spot on with his description of the bastards.

I wasn't disagreeing merely stating that any blow delt to the Qunari is something to be cherished.

And losing their overall Military Supreme Commander is certainly qualifying as a blow against them; Crud i bet even Tveinter got giddy over that for a moment or two. 

[Neon Rising Winter]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Be that as it may, doesn't change the fact taht the nobles complained about Meredith holding the power becasue of legality. It was simply because they didn't have any power and she did, that they complained. And in this the Arishok was spot on with his description of the bastards.

Although it's a bit hypocritical when you consider it's coming from the equivalent of a houseguest who turns up at your front door, plonks their backside on the sofa and demands board and lodging for several years. I'll bet the idle git didn't pay to the housekeeping either.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Master Warder Z wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well.. As is all too often the case in politics and games of power, it was only wrong becasue it failed. Trust me, the nobles of Kirkwall did not complain because what she did was illegal. They complained because she took the power from them.

The Arishok really made the best description of the Kirkwall nobles:

"Look at you! Like fat dathrosi you feed and feed, and only complain when your meal is interrupted!"

Hawke really did the world a favor by ending that guy ._.

Be that as it may, doesn't change the fact taht the nobles complained about Meredith holding the power becasue of legality. It was simply because they didn't have any power and she did, that they complained. And in this the Arishok was spot on with his description of the bastards.

I wasn't disagreeing merely stating that any blow delt to the Qunari is something to be cherished.

And losing their overall Military Supreme Commander is certainly qualifying as a blow against them; Crud i bet even Tveinter got giddy over that for a moment or two. 

I disagree. But let us rather save that debate for another thread, unless this goes completely off-topic.

[The Elder King]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well.. As is all too often the case in politics and games of power, it was only wrong becasue it failed. Trust me, the nobles of Kirkwall did not complain because what she did was illegal. They complained because she took the power from them.

The Arishok really made the best description of the Kirkwall nobles:

"Look at you! Like fat dathrosi you feed and feed, and only complain when your meal is interrupted!"

I  agree on the the nobles and Kirkwall. My point is simply that she shouldn't have step in, since it wasn't her job to do it, and because she worsened the things. Not that the other actors in Kirkwall were doing much better.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Narrow Margin wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Be that as it may, doesn't change the fact taht the nobles complained about Meredith holding the power becasue of legality. It was simply because they didn't have any power and she did, that they complained. And in this the Arishok was spot on with his description of the bastards.

Although it's a bit hypocritical when you consider it's coming from the equivalent of a houseguest who turns up at your front door, plonks their backside on the sofa and demands board and lodging for several years. I'll bet the idle git didn't pay to the housekeeping either.

Actually the Qunari did NONE of those things. The compound in the docks was GIFTED to them, and they cared NOTHING at all for what was happening in Kirkwall, but extremists kept engaing them through different means.
Granted, had the compound not been offered to them, the Qunari would likely simply have taken it. But still, the Qunari asked for nothing from Kirkwall.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 05 janvier 2014 - 11:39 .

[Neon Rising Winter]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Narrow Margin wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Be that as it may, doesn't change the fact taht the nobles complained about Meredith holding the power becasue of legality. It was simply because they didn't have any power and she did, that they complained. And in this the Arishok was spot on with his description of the bastards.

Although it's a bit hypocritical when you consider it's coming from the equivalent of a houseguest who turns up at your front door, plonks their backside on the sofa and demands board and lodging for several years. I'll bet the idle git didn't pay to the housekeeping either.

Actually the QUnari did NONE of those things. The compound in the docks was GIFTED to them, and they cared NOTHING at all for what was happening in Kirkwall, but extremists kept engaing them through different means.
Granted, had the compound not been offered to them, the Qunari would likely simply have taken it, but still. The QUnari asked for nothing from Kirkwall.

I apologise, an idle git who turns up at your front door with a few armed friends and makes noises about how you have a nice looking house, doesn't it look flammable and wouldn't it be a shame if something happened to it. By the way was that a spare room I saw over there? That's so much better!

[ianvillan]

Master Warder Z wrote...


I wasn't disagreeing merely stating that any blow delt to the Qunari is something to be cherished.

And losing their overall Military Supreme Commander is certainly qualifying as a blow against them; Crud i bet even Tveinter got giddy over that for a moment or two. 

If he was chosen as the Qunari military commander then the Qunari must be idiots.

The only person more incompetent in DA2 was Hawke, the Arishok just sat on his throne and moaned for years doing nothing at all to look for his book.

A city that houses you for years while you contribute nothing to it or help its people in any way, and all he can do is moan and sulk about being there. If he wasn't happy he could of gone home and had none of the problems he had there.

[Lulupab]

Dave of Canada wrote...

So if Anders dies a martyr's death, does he die one if he kills himself after helping kill all the mages to atone for the mess he started?

IF he kills himself. There is no proof. Anders simply hints, that which may or may not be true. We can't count on this at all.

Btw you are on hopelessly anti-mage list of BSN 

Modifié par Rassler, 05 janvier 2014 - 11:46 .

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Be that as it may, doesn't change the fact taht the nobles complained about Meredith holding the power becasue of legality. It was simply because they didn't have any power and she did, that they complained. And in this the Arishok was spot on with his description of the bastards.

DId she have the legal authority to take control, though? I'm unsure where the separation between Chantry and the Viscount is.

[The Elder King]

@ianvillain: the Qun wouldn't allow it to leave, since he had to retrieve the Tome and he knew it was in Kirkwall. At the same time, the Qun didn't demand him to do anything about Kirwkall's corruption (plus, there's a treaty between qunari and human nations).
He was forced to do nothing. Until he can't retrieve the book and the situation with the elven converts gave him the opportunity to act, since the Qun demands that he protected every member of the Qun, even if it means war.

[Vandicus]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Be that as it may, doesn't change the fact taht the nobles complained about Meredith holding the power becasue of legality. It was simply because they didn't have any power and she did, that they complained. And in this the Arishok was spot on with his description of the bastards.

DId she have the legal authority to take control, though? I'm unsure where the separation between Chantry and the Viscount is.

She shouldn't have. Officially the Chantry is neutral. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Master Warder Z wrote...
Furthermore Caesar made no move to disolve the Senate, he did however oust every one who wasn't supportive of him during his purge in the civil war but that said afterwards he made no move of it besides cementing his own permenent place in power. He didn't overstep he took the power that the senate threw at his feet when Antony defected with half of their military might and decided to go play king in the sand.

I think you are confusing Ceasar with Agustus in this part. Mark Antony didn't defect to Egypt with Cleopatra until after Ceasar's death when the Second Triumvirate dissolved.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Narrow Margin wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Narrow Margin wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Be that as it may, doesn't change the fact taht the nobles complained about Meredith holding the power becasue of legality. It was simply because they didn't have any power and she did, that they complained. And in this the Arishok was spot on with his description of the bastards.

Although it's a bit hypocritical when you consider it's coming from the equivalent of a houseguest who turns up at your front door, plonks their backside on the sofa and demands board and lodging for several years. I'll bet the idle git didn't pay to the housekeeping either.

Actually the QUnari did NONE of those things. The compound in the docks was GIFTED to them, and they cared NOTHING at all for what was happening in Kirkwall, but extremists kept engaing them through different means.
Granted, had the compound not been offered to them, the Qunari would likely simply have taken it, but still. The QUnari asked for nothing from Kirkwall.

I apologise, an idle git who turns up at your front door with a few armed friends and makes noises about how you have a nice looking house, doesn't it look flammable and wouldn't it be a shame if something happened to it. By the way was that a spare room I saw over there? That's so much better!

Would you rather give them the room, or have them kill you and take your house? But even taht is an incorrect comparison, since Dumar makes it VERY CLEAR, that the Qunari NEVER asked for anything.
And yet the only complain that ever left the Arishok's mouth was that he was tired of his people being killed for commiting no other crime than existing. So what he says in the palace is hardly hypocritical. Especially also because he does decidedly NOT gorge himself in riches and pwoer while living in Kirkwall.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 05 janvier 2014 - 11:50 .

[The Elder King]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Be that as it may, doesn't change the fact taht the nobles complained about Meredith holding the power becasue of legality. It was simply because they didn't have any power and she did, that they complained. And in this the Arishok was spot on with his description of the bastards.

DId she have the legal authority to take control, though? I'm unsure where the separation between Chantry and the Viscount is.

I don't think it was specified in the game. The Chantry might have the role/possibility to make an interreign during a crysis (and Meredith was the second highest ranking member of the Chantry). I doubt that it was legal to block the election of the new viscount, though she might have taken advantages of some loopholes.

[Vandicus]

hhh89 wrote...

@ianvillain: the Qun wouldn't allow it to leave, since he had to retrieve the Tome and he knew it was in Kirkwall. At the same time, the Qun didn't demand him to do anything about Kirwkall's corruption (plus, there's a treaty between qunari and human nations).
He was forced to do nothing. Until he can't retrieve the book and the situation with the elven converts gave him the opportunity to act, since the Qun demands that he protected every member of the Qun, even if it means war.

Given the importance of Qunari and human relations, he could've pursued a much more effective method, namely diplomatic channels, of retrieving the book. 500+ gold offer for the book would have it in his hands within the week, and I have no doubt the Viscount and nobles would be willing to give that much to get him out of Kirkwall. I have to agree that the Arishok was not very effectual, possibly because they sent the wrong Qunari to address the problem.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Be that as it may, doesn't change the fact taht the nobles complained about Meredith holding the power becasue of legality. It was simply because they didn't have any power and she did, that they complained. And in this the Arishok was spot on with his description of the bastards.

DId she have the legal authority to take control, though? I'm unsure where the separation between Chantry and the Viscount is.

I doubt that the currents of political power is as clearly defined and cut out as we are used to in mdoern politics.

[AresKeith]

Rassler wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

So if Anders dies a martyr's death, does he die one if he kills himself after helping kill all the mages to atone for the mess he started?

IF he kills himself. There is no proof. Anders simply hints, that which may or may not be true. We can't count on this at all.

Btw you are on hopelessly anti-mage list of BSN 

But then again Anders doesn't really become a marty anyway since alot of mages don't agree with what he did in Kirkwall

lol @ bolded part

[Master Warder Z_]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
Furthermore Caesar made no move to disolve the Senate, he did however oust every one who wasn't supportive of him during his purge in the civil war but that said afterwards he made no move of it besides cementing his own permenent place in power. He didn't overstep he took the power that the senate threw at his feet when Antony defected with half of their military might and decided to go play king in the sand.

I think you are confusing Ceasar with Agustus in this part. Mark Antony didn't defect to Egypt with Cleopatra until after Ceasar's death when the Second Triumvirate dissolved.

My Bad I haven't given a glance over to Roman History in ages.

I forgot about that little detail of the event; recalled it occuring just misplaced it in the time line.

[The Elder King]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
Furthermore Caesar made no move to disolve the Senate, he did however oust every one who wasn't supportive of him during his purge in the civil war but that said afterwards he made no move of it besides cementing his own permenent place in power. He didn't overstep he took the power that the senate threw at his feet when Antony defected with half of their military might and decided to go play king in the sand.

I think you are confusing Ceasar with Agustus in this part. Mark Antony didn't defect to Egypt with Cleopatra until after Ceasar's death when the Second Triumvirate dissolved.

The second triumvirate didn't dissolve with Caesar's death, since it was formed by Antony, Octavianus and Lepidus some time after Caesar's death. But you're right about Antony's betrayal.

Modifié par hhh89, 05 janvier 2014 - 11:53 .