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If Mages Win: Anders Is The New Andraste. All Hail The Anderstian Faith


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#351
Master Warder Z_

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Starsyn wrote...

@Z

Um, depends upon the Army. Many armies have chains of command in order to prevent dissolution, including in the US. I don't think killing the leaders of each faction is going to do a damned bit of good. It'll just create a power vacuum, one that would be quickly filled by the next in command.

There was one army in recent history that was dumb enough not to do that and it did fall apart. However, the majority of the armies in our world have chains of command. I don't see why that would be different in Thedas, especially since we've seen some of the chain of command at work (the Divine, Grand Cleric, Knight-Lieutenant, Knight-Commander, ect ect.)


However look at in this perspective neither of these orgnizations were intended act as traditional armies; They haven't had the training nor the resources to act as one, even in the Templars case which in fact they were orginally formed to act as one, in this situation they both have finite personal and even more finite leadership.

Yes you are correct you could replace some loss, You certainly could overlook one First Enchanter or one Knight Commander going down, But Four First Enchanters, Or Four Seekers or Four Knight Commanders? Much Harder loss to replace, add in the fact that as this war rages on situations such as these likely would occur more and more often considering both of these powerful individuals would likely would need to serve in the field considering for the mages, these are the most powerful members of their order and thus for any battle of note their presence would be needed and as for the Seekers and Templars they are both the most skilled warriors of their order and have the most command and battlefield expreince in most cases.

Namely i drew upon this conclusion because neither of these entities are traditional armies, in fact they more so resemble the older Mercenary Armies such as the Heshens and Dragoons that were once employed, and those were entities that relied upon their most talented and skilled to operate effectively.

Loss could be taken to an extent but it couldn't be replaced overnight, I see this as similar to that.

So my agrument was, if some one was to land a damaging enough blow to the othersides command structure their orginization would begin fragmenting and just adding further stress would just cause collapse.

After all, The Removal of thirty or so Senior Enchanters or Twelve Knight Captain's isn't a loss that can be easily replaced, if at all during wartime. Sure you could have people waiting in the wings to replace them, but that can only go so far and in your statement that this power vacuum would be rapidly filled.

Then the question i would pose to you, would these people replacing them being of equal or greater strength then those they are replacing? Would they be effective replacements? Or would it merely be a show of mouth to avoid showing how much damage was actually done with the loss of the initial person holding the position?

After all having an inept commander can be often as damaging as having no commander at all.

#352
Master Warder Z_

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eluvianix wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

@Z

Um, depends upon the Army. Many armies have chains of command in order to prevent dissolution, including in the US. I don't think killing the leaders of each faction is going to do a damned bit of good. It'll just create a power vacuum, one that would be quickly filled by the next in command.

There was one army in recent history that was dumb enough not to do that and it did fall apart. However, the majority of the armies in our world have chains of command. I don't see why that would be different in Thedas, especially since we've seen some of the chain of command at work (the Divine, Grand Cleric, Knight-Lieutenant, Knight-Commander, ect ect.)

Indeed, although I wonder where the Knight-Divine and Knight Vigilant fit in. I have heard both titles describe the top tier of the Templar Order, although we have not actually encountered either.

As for the mages, I guarantee that if Fiona somehow goes down, Adrian will step up to take her place.


That's sort of my point from the scant ability Adrian showed during the Novel she was nowhere near Fiona's level, That would be a clear case of a novice stepping into shoes she would be incapable of filling.

I mean sure it would be an effective measure to keep the Libertarians from bolting but it would mean the loss of an effective Grand Enchanter with her replacement clearly not being worthy of "First" Enchanter little lone that of the acting head of the entire circle of Magi.

#353
EmperorSahlertz

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Narrow Margin wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Do you not understand the difference between a percived threat and a recieved threat? The ACTUAL question you should ask yourself, is wether or not the Qunari were EVER going to act upon it. So far, given their absolute apathy towards the whole ordeal, there are much more evidence towards the Qunari never wanting to act upon it, than they actually would have. Dumar says that he gave them the compound to contain the Qunari and appease them, but that the QUnari never made any demands or request, and that they have actually been completely civil during any parley between the two factions.

And do you even realize just how far away Kirkwall is from Par Vollen? And HOW would that Qunari travel? By land? They don't have any boats anymore, so it must be by land. How would he reach Par Vollen? Maybe he even DID send out such a messenger. Maybe the messenger got intercepted. Maybe the homeland didn't feel it necessary to supply additional funds. There are a whole truckload of unknowns that you simply presume plays out in favor YOUR idea.


I disagree the question is whether the qunari would act on a threat. Wholly irrelevant I'd say. The question is whether they conducted their transactions with the knowledge that a threat was perceived and using the perception of that threat to their advantage. If someone with a history of stabbing people starts waving a knife it doesn't matter if this particular time they don't plan to harm a hair on anyone's head, any interactions from that point on occur in the context of their previous behaviour. They don't get to blink their sad puppy dog eyes and claim they didn't make any threats this time, and how could anyone possibly impune their character by suggesting it.

The second part I agree is more whimsical and not terribly important. Although I now have a vague curiosity as to whether there are diplomatic channels available. I imagine you're right that if there were he wouldn't have been receiving expenses, probably more a few colourfully worded messages from his line manager.

Because we KNOW that the Qunari did not even ask for anything? IF they had actually wished to play upon the threat, that they of course knew they presented, then they would have done so ACTIVELY. Right now you are blaiming the Qunari for the actions of the Viscount because they were possibly percieved as a threat. The Viscount explicitly says that the Qunari made no such threats, demands or requests. On the contrary the Qunari had actually seemed perfectly civil during any interaction.

#354
Magdalena11

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Master Warder Z wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

@Z

Um, depends upon the Army. Many armies have chains of command in order to prevent dissolution, including in the US. I don't think killing the leaders of each faction is going to do a damned bit of good. It'll just create a power vacuum, one that would be quickly filled by the next in command.

There was one army in recent history that was dumb enough not to do that and it did fall apart. However, the majority of the armies in our world have chains of command. I don't see why that would be different in Thedas, especially since we've seen some of the chain of command at work (the Divine, Grand Cleric, Knight-Lieutenant, Knight-Commander, ect ect.)

Indeed, although I wonder where the Knight-Divine and Knight Vigilant fit in. I have heard both titles describe the top tier of the Templar Order, although we have not actually encountered either.

As for the mages, I guarantee that if Fiona somehow goes down, Adrian will step up to take her place.


That's sort of my point from the scant ability Adrian showed during the Novel she was nowhere near Fiona's level, That would be a clear case of a novice stepping into shoes she would be incapable of filling.

I mean sure it would be an effective measure to keep the Libertarians from bolting but it would mean the loss of an effective Grand Enchanter with her replacement clearly not being worthy of "First" Enchanter little lone that of the acting head of the entire circle of Magi.

Adrian had ability as a mage.  What she didn't have was the ability to lead.  I saw her more of a rabble-rouser than an effective leader.   During the whole book she's looking to Rhys to smooth the feathers her abrasive manner ruffled.  I think he'd make a better choice as a leader in place of Fiona.

The role of the Grand Enchanter or even First Enchanter is pretty confused at the end of Asunder.  It seemed to me like the mages intended to remain a cohesive unit and would need a leadership structure in that case.

#355
Neon Rising Winter

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Because we KNOW that the Qunari did not even ask for anything? IF they had actually wished to play upon the threat, that they of course knew they presented, then they would have done so ACTIVELY. Right now you are blaiming the Qunari for the actions of the Viscount because they were possibly percieved as a threat. The Viscount explicitly says that the Qunari made no such threats, demands or requests. On the contrary the Qunari had actually seemed perfectly civil during any interaction.


As I said, I don't believe it depends on what they said. It's all about perception. And their knowledge of that perception. Pretty undeniably the Arishok has parked a military force on Kirkwall's doorstep with nowhere to stay, nothing to eat, and the ability to take what they needed if they felt like it. I'm at a loss to see how he could not conduct negotiations without there being an implicit threat.

Now from the Arishok's point of view, this is a lifesaver - he's got people to home and feed, empty pockets to do it with, and if it all goes south it's his head on the chopping block. So I'm not blaming him for leaping on it or saying it's a bad decision from his perspective. He'd be a fool not to take anything he can get. And yes he's then stuck there because he's landed with a job he's not qualified or resourced to perform and a company policy that doesn't allow him to return home and send back someone more suitable!

However from Kirkwall's perspective there is no way all those years of provisioning the qunari occurs free from threat. It would require me to believe that for several years they voluntarily support a large military force from a nation with a long history of not playing well with others. A large force without any diplomats to provide supervision. In a city where an organisation directly antagonistic to that force holds major political power. If they thought they could turn round and say 'Guys you know, it's been great, but you should probably leave now.' without consequence, they would.

#356
EmperorSahlertz

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Kirkwal DIDN'T provide for the Qunari. All Kirkwall did was gift the compound to them. From then on, the Qunari handled their own business.

The Qunari did not ask for anything, and whatever they were percieved as should be blamed on the one percieving them, NOT the Qunari. Yes, the Qunari did "park" a considerable military force in Kirkwall, but they NEVER asked for help. It doesn't even appear they wanted help at all to begin with. So no, the Qunari DID NOT use the threat of violence, either explicitly or implicitly, to coerce Kirkwall into aiding them. On the contrary, the Qunari did what they could to be left alone.

And it was only minor factions of the Chantry in Kirkwall that was initially hostile towards the Qunari. There have been over a hundred years of peace with the Qunari, and it even seemed that the Qunari had no intentions of breaking that peace. As a matter of fact, it shows that the QUnari felt taht the peace was far more important than what they felt was needed to be done. The Arishok contemplating helping the city, but that was not a demand of the Qun, and as such he could not. Not that Qunari help was particularly wanted by the leadership of the city, but it shows that the Qunari was concerned about staying neutral.

#357
Neon Rising Winter

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And with that sleep calls, so I'll just have to agree to disagreee. Thanks for an entertaining set of qunari tennis!

#358
Orian Tabris

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*Anderstrian faith.

Andraste => Andrastrian
Anders => Anderstrian

#359
KiwiQuiche

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KainD wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

nonsense.Anders is dead in my playthroughs.

He's dead in most players playthroughs most likely.

So it's not possible.Are you trolling ?


Hey, Andraste is dead aswell, doesn't stop anyone. 


Ahahaha good answer. :D

#360
anmale89

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Anders is no Andraste, I killed him and I'll undo all that scum did. I rejected him and all he believes in. I won't support campaign of that abomination, who annoyed me whole game.

Modifié par anmale89, 06 janvier 2014 - 04:04 .


#361
Lulupab

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anmale89 wrote...

Anders is no Andraste, I killed him and I'll undo all that scum did. I rejected him and all he believes in. I won't support campaign of that abomination, who annoyed me whole game.


The person who killed Andraste porbably said something like this too:

I killed her and I'll undo all that scum did. I rejected her and all she believes in. I won't support campaign of that heretic who annoyed me whole my life.

That didn't stop anyone :lol:

#362
Grieving Natashina

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KiwiQuiche wrote...

KainD wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

nonsense.Anders is dead in my playthroughs.

He's dead in most players playthroughs most likely.

So it's not possible.Are you trolling ?


Hey, Andraste is dead aswell, doesn't stop anyone. 


Ahahaha good answer. :D


Martyrs.  The most powerful forces in Thedas. :whistle:

#363
Master Warder Z_

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Rassler wrote...

anmale89 wrote...

Anders is no Andraste, I killed him and I'll undo all that scum did. I rejected him and all he believes in. I won't support campaign of that abomination, who annoyed me whole game.


The person who killed Andraste porbably said something like this too:

I killed her and I'll undo all that scum did. I rejected her and all she believes in. I won't support campaign of that heretic who annoyed me whole my life.

That didn't stop anyone :lol:


True but it didn't hurt that all of a sudden the entirity of the civilized world took up the practice once the Archon did.

.-. The reason the chantry was created after all was because the cult of Andraste was embraced by the Imperium by it self he razed the territories to the south, even made war to the Imperium in its own heart but it didn't fell it.

My point is, Mass perseption is greater then reality.

Anders would have to become more then a rallying cry for mages if he wanted to be deified.

And considering you have plenty of mages regarding him as insane nut well like i said in my initial post, i just don't see it occuring.

#364
Master Warder Z_

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Starsyn wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KainD wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

nonsense.Anders is dead in my playthroughs.

He's dead in most players playthroughs most likely.

So it's not possible.Are you trolling ?


Hey, Andraste is dead aswell, doesn't stop anyone. 


Ahahaha good answer. :D


Martyrs.  The most powerful forces in Thedas. :whistle:


Even if its for a cause his own kind don't agree with him about?

Asunder to me sort of debunked his whole "being a Martyr" speal considering even Fiona admitted the dude was insane.

#365
Han Shot First

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If that's the case, my PC will totally roll with the Templars.

Burn Mages, BURN! I'll not have anyone in Thedas worship that tool Anders.

#366
Last seeker

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I can't imagine Ander's role among the main characters in DAI since there was a case when you can choose to kill or let him live, If bioware put him in the main characters list in DAI, it may cause something like a time paradox. Personally I think his roll might be similar to Alistair in the DA2.

#367
Grieving Natashina

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I just know that Anders VA from DA2 confirmed on Twitter he isn't going to be in DAI. So I think we'll be lucky to get some mentions of Anders' actions. I don't think that there'll be a new religion.

#368
ianvillan

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Starsyn wrote...

I just know that Anders VA from DA2 confirmed on Twitter he isn't going to be in DAI. So I think we'll be lucky to get some mentions of Anders' actions. I don't think that there'll be a new religion.


It seems that Anders will probably be killed off even if you had chosen to spare him in DA2, lets just hope if he is killed off it is not on twitter.

#369
Han Shot First

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ianvillan wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

I just know that Anders VA from DA2 confirmed on Twitter he isn't going to be in DAI. So I think we'll be lucky to get some mentions of Anders' actions. I don't think that there'll be a new religion.


It seems that Anders will probably be killed off even if you had chosen to spare him in DA2, lets just hope if he is killed off it is not on twitter.


I'm guessing he won't be killed off, just because it would sort of make the decision to spare him pointless. He'll just end up like the Mad Hermit of DA:O. He can't live anywhere in peace if his identity is revealed, so he'd either have to go live as a hermit somewhere where there aren't many (or any) people or stay forever on the run.

#370
Lulupab

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Starsyn wrote...

I just know that Anders VA from DA2 confirmed on Twitter he isn't going to be in DAI. So I think we'll be lucky to get some mentions of Anders' actions. I don't think that there'll be a new religion.


Yes I know. they might change his voice actor. Adam Howden who voiced Anders in DA2 didn't voice him in Awakening.

Justice's voice actor Adam Leadbeater is recording for DA:I I think. He voiced Justice both in DA2 and awakening. This is amusing. He voiced Justice and martin only. Remember martin? Isabela's friend who traded poison. It can possibly mean Justice has taken full control or when Anders is dead Justice is controlling him.

Also its Ironic that both Anders and Justice's voice in DA2 are named Adam. :lol:

Modifié par Rassler, 07 janvier 2014 - 06:57 .


#371
Lotion Soronarr

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Kirkwal DIDN'T provide for the Qunari. All Kirkwall did was gift the compound to them. From then on, the Qunari handled their own business.


So how did the 500 Qunari eat if Kirkwall didnt'give them anything?
I didn't see any farms inside the compund.

#372
ianvillan

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Kirkwal DIDN'T provide for the Qunari. All Kirkwall did was gift the compound to them. From then on, the Qunari handled their own business.


So how did the 500 Qunari eat if Kirkwall didnt'give them anything?
I didn't see any farms inside the compund.


Cats eat the rats, Qunari eat the cats.

The Arishok actually eat Ser Pounce A lot.     Image IPB

#373
EmperorSahlertz

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Kirkwal DIDN'T provide for the Qunari. All Kirkwall did was gift the compound to them. From then on, the Qunari handled their own business.


So how did the 500 Qunari eat if Kirkwall didnt'give them anything?
I didn't see any farms inside the compund.

They could have scavanged supplies from the shipwreck, they could have recieved, however little, suppleis from their Elven (and human for that matter) sympathizers, they could have worked for it and bought it. There are literally thousands of different explanation as to how they sustained themselves. Matter of fact is that as far as we know the Qunari recieved ONLY the compound and nothing else.

#374
ianvillan

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Kirkwal DIDN'T provide for the Qunari. All Kirkwall did was gift the compound to them. From then on, the Qunari handled their own business.


So how did the 500 Qunari eat if Kirkwall didnt'give them anything?
I didn't see any farms inside the compund.

They could have scavanged supplies from the shipwreck, they could have recieved, however little, suppleis from their Elven (and human for that matter) sympathizers, they could have worked for it and bought it. There are literally thousands of different explanation as to how they sustained themselves. Matter of fact is that as far as we know the Qunari recieved ONLY the compound and nothing else.


The compound itself is a massive gift that would of cost Kirwall a huge amount of lost revenue for the years the Qunari were there.

At the very least the Qunari were given the compound and allowed to freely practice their religion, something the Qunari would not of allowed if Humans turned up in there homeland.

So to be given so much for years and constantly complain about the conditions they were only in because of incompetence is disgusting and hypocritical, then to turn around and slaughter the people of the city shows how the Qunari really are. 

#375
Jedi Master of Orion

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Their soldiers were persistently robbed kidnapped or murdered by officials from the city. They had a right to be angry at how they were treated.