403 réponses à ce sujet

[ianvillan]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Their soldiers were persistently robbed kidnapped or murdered by officials from the city. They had a right to be angry at how they were treated.

A few were and the ones that did it were killed for it. Punishment for crimes is something the Arishok was passionate about. 

The Qunari allowed Toxic gases to be unleashed in the city, they went about trying to convert the Vicounts son even though they knew the Vicount and Chantry were not happy and that it would cause trouble.

They refused to hand over wanted criminals.

The Chantry had a right to be angry with the Qunari at how the Qunari were treating them even thought they were being housed and feed for years and the Qunari were giving nothing back to the city.

[EmperorSahlertz]

ianvillan wrote...

The compound itself is a massive gift that would of cost Kirwall a huge amount of lost revenue for the years the Qunari were there.

I was unaware you had full access to the complete economical records and financials of Kirkwall City, please enlighten us.

Jest aside, you have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever, what the compound was used for before the Qunari showed up. There is an equally big chance that it was simply wasted space on the Kirkwall Docks and as such was the most prudent place to house the Qunari. We simply cannot know.

ianvillan wrote...

At the very least the Qunari were given the compound and allowed to freely practice their religion, something the Qunari would not of allowed if Humans turned up in there homeland.

Blatantly false, since we know that Qunari have relations to other human societies in their homelands and we have no sources indicating that foreigners aren't allowed to practice their religion.

ianvillan wrote...

So to be given so much for years and constantly complain about the conditions they were only in because of incompetence is disgusting and hypocritical, then to turn around and slaughter the people of the city shows how the Qunari really are. 

Consdiering the conditions the Qunari had to live in (constantly having your friends and co-workers kidnapped and killed jsut for believing differently than the majority is aggrivating) I can fully understand why the Arishok hated how his hands were bound to inaction.

[ianvillan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

The compound itself is a massive gift that would of cost Kirwall a huge amount of lost revenue for the years the Qunari were there.

I was unaware you had full access to the complete economical records and financials of Kirkwall City, please enlighten us.

Jest aside, you have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever, what the compound was used for before the Qunari showed up. There is an equally big chance that it was simply wasted space on the Kirkwall Docks and as such was the most prudent place to house the Qunari. We simply cannot know.

ianvillan wrote...

At the very least the Qunari were given the compound and allowed to freely practice their religion, something the Qunari would not of allowed if Humans turned up in there homeland.

Blatantly false, since we know that Qunari have relations to other human societies in their homelands and we have no sources indicating that foreigners aren't allowed to practice their religion.

ianvillan wrote...

So to be given so much for years and constantly complain about the conditions they were only in because of incompetence is disgusting and hypocritical, then to turn around and slaughter the people of the city shows how the Qunari really are. 

Consdiering the conditions the Qunari had to live in (constantly having your friends and co-workers kidnapped and killed jsut for believing differently than the majority is aggrivating) I can fully understand why the Arishok hated how his hands were bound to inaction.

1) Do you honestly think a city like Kirkwall would keep a large space on there docks and have it go to waste, If it wasn't used for storage of cargo or supply's it could of been used for offices or housing dockhands both would of gotten rent for the city. 

2)If the Chantry turned up on the Qunari homeland, refused to say why they were there or how long they were staying and asked for a free place to stay the Qunari would let them stay.

If they did let them stay would the Qunari let the Chantry start converting their  population including one people they say they did not want them too. would they be fine with the Chantry letting of Toxic bombs over their city.

After the Chantry did all that the Qunari would still let them stay free of charge, not bothering about why they are there or for how long and Free to continue to convert who they want.

3) The biggest problem with this statement is when you said considering the conditions the Qunari had to live in.
No one was forcing the Qunari to live in Kirkwall, they were free to leave when ever they want.

The Elves had it much worse then the Qunari, and were not as free to leave, yet the majority of them don't complain as much as the Arishok, don't unleash bombs in the city and don't go on killing sprees.

[AresKeith]

Rassler wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

I just know that Anders VA from DA2 confirmed on Twitter he isn't going to be in DAI. So I think we'll be lucky to get some mentions of Anders' actions. I don't think that there'll be a new religion.

Yes I know. they might change his voice actor. Adam Howden who voiced Anders in DA2 didn't voice him in Awakening.

Justice's voice actor Adam Leadbeater is recording for DA:I I think. He voiced Justice both in DA2 and awakening. This is amusing. He voiced Justice and martin only. Remember martin? Isabela's friend who traded poison. It can possibly mean Justice has taken full control or when Anders is dead Justice is controlling him.

Also its Ironic that both Anders and Justice's voice in DA2 are named Adam. 

So no more Anders regardless

Yay 

[AresKeith]

ianvillan wrote...

The Qunari allowed Toxic gases to be unleashed in the city, they went about trying to convert the Vicounts son even though they knew the Vicount and Chantry were not happy and that it would cause trouble.

They refused to hand over wanted criminals.

The Chantry had a right to be angry with the Qunari at how the Qunari were treating them even thought they were being housed and feed for years and the Qunari were giving nothing back to the city.

I don't see how they allowed it to be unleashed when it was stolen, and the Vicounts son himself converted 

They refused to hand over the criminals because they converted, and with the amount of corruption in Kirkwall I don't blame the elves for the crime

[EmperorSahlertz]

ianvillan wrote...

1) Do you honestly think a city like Kirkwall would keep a large space on there docks and have it go to waste, If it wasn't used for storage of cargo or supply's it could of been used for offices or housing dockhands both would of gotten rent for the city. 

No the QUnari would not allow a Chantry to be established on Par Vollen or Seheron. But then again, it was not the Ariqun who landed in Kirkwall, and the QUnari did not actively convert ANYONE, which means your comparisson is incorrect or dishonest, depending on your actual udnerstanding of Qunari society.

ianvillan wrote...

2)If the Chantry turned up on the Qunari homeland, refused to say why they were there or how long they were staying and asked for a free place to stay the Qunari would let them stay.

If they did let them stay would the Qunari let the Chantry start converting their  population including one people they say they did not want them too. would they be fine with the Chantry letting of Toxic bombs over their city.

After the Chantry did all that the Qunari would still let them stay free of charge, not bothering about why they are there or for how long and Free to continue to convert who they want.

Consdiering what I jsut say, I don't feel like repeating myself, but sicne it appears to be necessary:
The Qunari NEVER actively converted anyone in Kirkwall. The QUnari did NOT create the toxic gasses that was released in Kirkwall. And yes, the Qunari would probably admire anyone who did exactly these things. Then they would kill them.

ianvillan wrote...

3) The biggest problem with this statement is when you said considering the conditions the Qunari had to live in.
No one was forcing the Qunari to live in Kirkwall, they were free to leave when ever they want.

The Elves had it much worse then the Qunari, and were not as free to leave, yet the majority of them don't complain as much as the Arishok, don't unleash bombs in the city and don't go on killing sprees.

ANd once again you show a compelte and utter lack of understanding of the Qunari society.

Yes, they were forced to stay in Kirkwall by THEMSELVES and what they believed in. Their duty was to return with the Tome of Koslun, and they could not return without it.
If you are talking about physically restraining them to remain in Kirkwall, then you are correct. But in that case you would again show a remarkable amount of incomprehension towards Qunari and their customs.

[Lulupab]

AresKeith wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

I just know that Anders VA from DA2 confirmed on Twitter he isn't going to be in DAI. So I think we'll be lucky to get some mentions of Anders' actions. I don't think that there'll be a new religion.

Yes I know. they might change his voice actor. Adam Howden who voiced Anders in DA2 didn't voice him in Awakening.

Justice's voice actor Adam Leadbeater is recording for DA:I I think. He voiced Justice both in DA2 and awakening. This is amusing. He voiced Justice and martin only. Remember martin? Isabela's friend who traded poison. It can possibly mean Justice has taken full control or when Anders is dead Justice is controlling him.

Also its Ironic that both Anders and Justice's voice in DA2 are named Adam. 

So no more Anders regardless

Yay 

So are you saying you support Justice for DA:I and not Anders? Hmm, amusing.

[AresKeith]

Rassler wrote...

So are you saying you support Justice for DA:I and not Anders? Hmm, amusing.

I was already aware that Justice was gonna be in DA:I regardless, as I plan to either send him back to the Fade or kill him because Anders corrupted him into Vengeance 

[Lulupab]

AresKeith wrote...

Rassler wrote...

So are you saying you support Justice for DA:I and not Anders? Hmm, amusing.

I was already aware that Justice was gonna be in DA:I regardless, as I plan to either send him back to the Fade or kill him because Anders corrupted him into Vengeance 

He did not corruptt him willingly. Spirits, unlike demons have advanced personalities almost like humans. A merging of a human and spirit is always unpredictable. But I see your point. Btw If you like Justice that much then start calling him Justice. He might be a force of Vengeance but his name is Justice. He asks you to call him Justice in the fade. "I am Justice, Anders have told you of me"

All abomination want to rule the world, kill everyone on sight and get more power. Same is not the case with spirits.

[AresKeith]

Rassler wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Rassler wrote...

So are you saying you support Justice for DA:I and not Anders? Hmm, amusing.

I was already aware that Justice was gonna be in DA:I regardless, as I plan to either send him back to the Fade or kill him because Anders corrupted him into Vengeance 

He did not corruptt him willingly. Spirits, unlike demons have advanced personalities almost like humans. A merging of a human and spirit is always unpredictable. But I see your point. Btw If you like Justice that much then start calling him Justice. He might be a force of Vengeance but his name is Justice. He asks you to call him Justice in the fade. "I am Justice, Anders have told you of me"

All abomination want to rule the world, kill everyone on sight and get more power. Same is not the case with spirits.

Justice was still the Spirit of Justice, he wasn't fully corrupted yet. Him turning into a force of Vengeance is him becoming a demon

[Lulupab]

AresKeith wrote...

Rassler wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Rassler wrote...

So are you saying you support Justice for DA:I and not Anders? Hmm, amusing.

I was already aware that Justice was gonna be in DA:I regardless, as I plan to either send him back to the Fade or kill him because Anders corrupted him into Vengeance 

He did not corruptt him willingly. Spirits, unlike demons have advanced personalities almost like humans. A merging of a human and spirit is always unpredictable. But I see your point. Btw If you like Justice that much then start calling him Justice. He might be a force of Vengeance but his name is Justice. He asks you to call him Justice in the fade. "I am Justice, Anders have told you of me"

All abomination want to rule the world, kill everyone on sight and get more power. Same is not the case with spirits.

Justice was still the Spirit of Justice, he wasn't fully corrupted yet. Him turning into a force of Vengeance is him becoming a demon

According to lore Vengeance is not one of the most twisted human emotions like pride therefore he can't be a demon but he is certainly not benevolent as well. So in comparison to real life if spirits are Angels and demons are, well demons, Justice is neither and something in between.

[The Elder King]

@Rassler: According to what lore?

[Lulupab]

hhh89 wrote...

@Rassler: According to what lore?

DA lore. There is no Vengeance demon. There is only Rage, sloth, desire, hunger and pride. 

[AresKeith]

Rassler wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@Rassler: According to what lore?

DA lore. There is no Vengeance demon. There is only Rage, sloth, desire, hunger and pride. 

David Gaider once stated that other types of Demons do in-fact exist

Demon of Vengeance (Justice) being one of them

[The Elder King]

Rassler wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@Rassler: According to what lore?

DA lore. There is no Vengeance demon. There is only Rage, sloth, desire, hunger and pride. 

The lore isn't complete, since those are just demons that the people in Thedas know of. The mortals don't have a complete knowledge of the Fade, its inhabitants, the difference between demons and spirits.
In DAI it'll be introduced at least a new demon, the demon of despair. So Vengeance could easily be a form of demon that nobody knew of, because nobody knew that a spirit of Justice could've been corrupted in a demon of Vengeance.

[Lulupab]

AresKeith wrote...

Rassler wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@Rassler: According to what lore?

DA lore. There is no Vengeance demon. There is only Rage, sloth, desire, hunger and pride. 

David Gaider once stated that other types of Demons do in-fact exist

Demon of Vengeance (Justice) being one of them

According to David Gaider, other types of demons exist, but have yet to be shown - despair, fear, envy and remorse being some of them.He mentioned that at least one new major type of demon will appear in DA:I

Direct quote. Nothing about Vengeance yet. Despair, fear and envy and remorse are more powerful than Vengeance. Vengeance is too imixed with Justice to tell the difference. Even the greatest scholar of our history cannot tell the difference.

Besides What Justice does or forces anders to do doesn't match the description of demon:

A Demon is an oft-malicious spirit that embodies a sin and feeds on the darker parts of the mortal psyche like rage, hunger, and desire. The more complex the emotions, the more intelligent and powerful the demon who feeds on it.

Many see Vengeance as a justified and necessary human emotion. What we did to arl how, was it Justice or Vengeance? The warden seems to think its vengeance.

Edit: WTF is wrong with pasting something here? 

Modifié par Rassler, 07 janvier 2014 - 10:10 .

[AresKeith]

Just because Vengeance wasn't mentioned in the quote doesn't mean it's not a demon

Even if Vengeance and Justice are too inmixed, vengeance still embody negative emotions which is what makes a demon (I.E Rage)

[Lulupab]

AresKeith wrote...

Just because Vengeance wasn't mentioned in the quote doesn't mean it's not a demon

Even if Vengeance and Justice are too inmixed, vengeance still embody negative emotions which is what makes a demon (I.E Rage)

The only time we meet Justice is in the fade and briefly. Its only Justice and no Anders. He turns on the player for willing to sacrifice an innocent (Feynriel) for torpor's Ambition NO DEMON would do that. There torpor acknowledges that Justice is a spirit not a demon. I think a demon can recognize its kind.

He is not fully corrupted he still does many things that are considered just. He is Justice and Vengeance both. He is willing to kill innocents to save innocent mages and this is where his corruption lies. Cause of Anders he thinks mages have priority in both Justice and Vengeance.

[Br3admax]

I don't think that Rage is the corruption of Justice. Justice isn't a rage demon, either way.

[AresKeith]

Rassler wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Just because Vengeance wasn't mentioned in the quote doesn't mean it's not a demon

Even if Vengeance and Justice are too inmixed, vengeance still embody negative emotions which is what makes a demon (I.E Rage)

The only time we meet Justice is in the fade and briefly. Its only Justice and no Anders. He turns on the player for willing to sacrifice an innocent (Feynriel) for torpor's Ambition NO DEMON would do that. There torpor acknowledges that Justice is a spirit not a demon. I think a demon can recognize its kind.

He is not fully corrupted he still does many things that are considered just. He is Justice and Vengeance both. He is willing to kill innocents to save innocent mages and this is where his corruption lies. Cause of Anders he thinks mages have priority in both Justice and Vengeance.

I never said he was fully corrupted, I literally said he was being corrupted by Anders. The negative emotion of vengeance thus turning Justice into the Demon of Vengeance 

[Hellion Rex]

Rassler wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Just because Vengeance wasn't mentioned in the quote doesn't mean it's not a demon

Even if Vengeance and Justice are too inmixed, vengeance still embody negative emotions which is what makes a demon (I.E Rage)

The only time we meet Justice is in the fade and briefly. Its only Justice and no Anders. He turns on the player for willing to sacrifice an innocent (Feynriel) for torpor's Ambition NO DEMON would do that. There torpor acknowledges that Justice is a spirit not a demon. I think a demon can recognize its kind.

He is not fully corrupted he still does many things that are considered just. He is Justice and Vengeance both. He is willing to kill innocents to save innocent mages and this is where his corruption lies. Cause of Anders he thinks mages have priority in both Justice and Vengeance.

If Vengeance wasn't a demon, he was damn well near it. But I do believe he was a demon.

Modifié par eluvianix, 07 janvier 2014 - 10:42 .

[Lulupab]

AresKeith wrote...

Rassler wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Just because Vengeance wasn't mentioned in the quote doesn't mean it's not a demon

Even if Vengeance and Justice are too inmixed, vengeance still embody negative emotions which is what makes a demon (I.E Rage)

The only time we meet Justice is in the fade and briefly. Its only Justice and no Anders. He turns on the player for willing to sacrifice an innocent (Feynriel) for torpor's Ambition NO DEMON would do that. There torpor acknowledges that Justice is a spirit not a demon. I think a demon can recognize its kind.

He is not fully corrupted he still does many things that are considered just. He is Justice and Vengeance both. He is willing to kill innocents to save innocent mages and this is where his corruption lies. Cause of Anders he thinks mages have priority in both Justice and Vengeance.

I never said he was fully corrupted, I literally said he was being corrupted by Anders. The negative emotion of vengeance thus turning Justice into the Demon of Vengeance 

{sigh} why did you deny what I said earlier then? I literally said Justice's morality is neither black nor white. He is dominantly gray which is true. I predict he won't become a demon at all but he is not benevolent as well.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

Rassler wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Just because Vengeance wasn't mentioned in the quote doesn't mean it's not a demon

Even if Vengeance and Justice are too inmixed, vengeance still embody negative emotions which is what makes a demon (I.E Rage)

The only time we meet Justice is in the fade and briefly. Its only Justice and no Anders. He turns on the player for willing to sacrifice an innocent (Feynriel) for torpor's Ambition NO DEMON would do that. There torpor acknowledges that Justice is a spirit not a demon. I think a demon can recognize its kind.

He is not fully corrupted he still does many things that are considered just. He is Justice and Vengeance both. He is willing to kill innocents to save innocent mages and this is where his corruption lies. Cause of Anders he thinks mages have priority in both Justice and Vengeance.

If Vengeance wasn't a demon, he was damn well near it. But I do believe he was a demon.

I like to think of it this way.

"All demons are spirits but not all spirits are demons." And a demon is simply a spirit who has an intense interest in the mortal world, want to experience it and so on. That is the definition of demons given to us by other spirits like Justice in Awakening, Sloth and Valor in the mage origin.

I actually think Justice, under that definition, was closer to becoming a demon in Awakening, when he grew interested in the mortal world after meeting Aura, and saw how complex mortals are compared to spirits, and how's there's so much more than he originally thought.

And when he possessed Anders, he got involved in the mage plight as it were, and was concerned with mortal affairs.

Under the definition I previously provided, his very interest in mortal affairs and influencing it makes him a demon.

[AresKeith]

Rassler wrote...

{sigh} why did you deny what I said earlier then? I literally said Justice's morality is neither black nor white. He is dominantly gray which is true. I predict he won't become a demon at all but he is not benevolent as well.

Because your saying he won't or can't become a demon when that isn't true, spirits can become demons

Justice being grey doesn't change that either, Anders' negative emotions was corrupting him throughout the time they merged

That's why I believe Justice becoming Vengeance or not depends on what you do with Anders at the end DA2

[Br3admax]

Having a interest in the mortal world is not what makes one a demon. For a spirit to be a demon it must simply embody the negative traits of Andrastian society. The hunger for these negative traits is what makes the demons want to cross the Veil. that's the way that I see it, anyway.