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[Nohvarr]

Since the mages were already distancing themselves from Anders actions in 'Asunder' I'm guessing Hawke will be the one they remember, either for brutally killing the mages or fighting in their defense when Meredith went crazy after being handed an excuse by Anders.

[lady_v23]

rasloveszev wrote...

lady_v23 wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

lady_v23 wrote...



If by some miracle this actually happens.... I will rage so hard XDD

Just what is so outrageous about Anders becoming an symbol? If the mages indeed win and get their hard won freedom, they will look back and see that it was Anders the one that instigated (or forced) mages to fight back against their jailors, and without him they probally would still be subjugated even today.

I'm not even saying this as Anders supporter or anything, this just seems like an likely scenario if the mages indeed win.

I mean I will rage if he does become the new Andraste. 

I don't think he's going to be a hero or a symbol, maybe a martyr.  He did destroy the chantry which was filled with innocet people, incluing a very important figure, the gland cleric.

and btw I'm pro mage:wizard:

Didn't Andraste do the same thing?

I guess?  But she was the "bride of the maker" So I guess that gives her a boost in the popularity chart?

[In Exile]

rasloveszev wrote...

Didn't Andraste do the same thing?

Not really. She led a military conquest using barbarian tribes and, later, freed slaves. But it was war first, rather than (at best) insurgency like tactics. 

[Jaison1986]

lady_v23 wrote...

rasloveszev wrote...

lady_v23 wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

lady_v23 wrote...



If by some miracle this actually happens.... I will rage so hard XDD

Just what is so outrageous about Anders becoming an symbol? If the mages indeed win and get their hard won freedom, they will look back and see that it was Anders the one that instigated (or forced) mages to fight back against their jailors, and without him they probally would still be subjugated even today.

I'm not even saying this as Anders supporter or anything, this just seems like an likely scenario if the mages indeed win.

I mean I will rage if he does become the new Andraste. 

I don't think he's going to be a hero or a symbol, maybe a martyr.  He did destroy the chantry which was filled with innocet people, incluing a very important figure, the gland cleric.

and btw I'm pro mage:wizard:

Didn't Andraste do the same thing?

I guess?  But she was the "bride of the maker" So I guess that gives her a boost in the popularity chart?

Templar/Chantry supporters would argue that Andraste didn't blew up an church full of innocents, wich is probally right, though, I neither see templars and priests that died there either as innocent or guilty. But they are indeed the same when it comes to the fact that Andraste and Anders started an brutal campaign to get the freedom of their people. Just how many people do you guys think Andraste might have slaughtered while battling the Imperium?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Well what measures she was using is and probably will be a mystery pretty much all we know about her is that what comes from chantry pretty much legends that shaped her in goodie-goodie as many other shady things chantry covered up to make them look prettier.

[In Exile]

Jaison1986 wrote...
Templar/Chantry supporters would argue that Andraste didn't blew up an church full of innocents, wich is probally right, though, I neither see templars and priests that died there either as innocent or guilty. But they are indeed the same when it comes to the fact that Andraste and Anders started an brutal campaign to get the freedom of their people. Just how many people do you guys think Andraste might have slaughtered while battling the Imperium?

Our society draws a difference between killing people in a straight up military campaign versus terrorism, though, which is where the distinction comes from (for most people). 

[lady_v23]

Jaison1986 wrote...

lady_v23 wrote...

rasloveszev wrote...

lady_v23 wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

lady_v23 wrote...



If by some miracle this actually happens.... I will rage so hard XDD

Just what is so outrageous about Anders becoming an symbol? If the mages indeed win and get their hard won freedom, they will look back and see that it was Anders the one that instigated (or forced) mages to fight back against their jailors, and without him they probally would still be subjugated even today.

I'm not even saying this as Anders supporter or anything, this just seems like an likely scenario if the mages indeed win.

I mean I will rage if he does become the new Andraste. 

I don't think he's going to be a hero or a symbol, maybe a martyr.  He did destroy the chantry which was filled with innocet people, incluing a very important figure, the gland cleric.

and btw I'm pro mage:wizard:

Didn't Andraste do the same thing?

I guess?  But she was the "bride of the maker" So I guess that gives her a boost in the popularity chart?

Templar/Chantry supporters would argue that Andraste didn't blew up an church full of innocents, wich is probally right, though, I neither see templars and priests that died there either as innocent or guilty. But they are indeed the same when it comes to the fact that Andraste and Anders started an brutal campaign to get the freedom of their people. Just how many people do you guys think Andraste might have slaughtered while battling the Imperium?

wasn't that a war?  What I know about andraste is that she fought the weakened imperium after the first blight. I don't really know if she started the war by slaughtering tyrants or innocents

[Viktoria Landers]

OperatingWookie wrote...

Anders was clearly a hero. Being the freedom fighter that he was, he overcame the evils of the local chantry and templar oppressors. Now magic in all forms, whether blood or lyrium can be practiced.

Anders was the prophet of the Maker, chosen to inform man of the corruption of the chantry and its policies. Through his trials, salvation has been delivered.

It's quite good. Kudos!

[Heimdall]

In Exile wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...
Templar/Chantry supporters would argue that Andraste didn't blew up an church full of innocents, wich is probally right, though, I neither see templars and priests that died there either as innocent or guilty. But they are indeed the same when it comes to the fact that Andraste and Anders started an brutal campaign to get the freedom of their people. Just how many people do you guys think Andraste might have slaughtered while battling the Imperium?

Our society draws a difference between killing people in a straight up military campaign versus terrorism, though, which is where the distinction comes from (for most people). 

That and, in relation to the toppling of religion angle, people tend to be less sympathetic to the religion that practices bloodletting if not outright sacrifice of slaves.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Nohvarr wrote...

Since the mages were already distancing themselves from Anders actions in 'Asunder' I'm guessing Hawke will be the one they remember, either for brutally killing the mages or fighting in their defense when Meredith went crazy after being handed an excuse by Anders.

Yeah. And almost nobody in the nonmage group even knew he was the one responsible. Cassandra, a Seeker of Truth and therefore the ones who would know this more than anyone but the mages, didn't know anders was responsible until Varric revealed it to her. With the Mages treating him as someone not to be affiliated with and the nonmages not even knowing who he was, the chances of him getting a religion based after him are almost nonexistant. 

[In Exile]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

Since the mages were already distancing themselves from Anders actions in 'Asunder' I'm guessing Hawke will be the one they remember, either for brutally killing the mages or fighting in their defense when Meredith went crazy after being handed an excuse by Anders.

Yeah. And almost nobody in the nonmage group even knew he was the one responsible. Cassandra, a Seeker of Truth and therefore the ones who would know this more than anyone but the mages, didn't know anders was responsible until Varric revealed it to her. With the Mages treating him as someone not to be affiliated with and the nonmages not even knowing who he was, the chances of him getting a religion based after him are almost nonexistant. 

DA2 does a bad job of spelling this out, but it's not that Cassandra doesn't know it's Anders, it's that she thinks Hawke conspired to bring the whole thing about: getting Aveline appointed to the Guard, having Anders bomb the Chantry, inciting the Arishok to rise up against Kirkwall only to later put him down/negotiate with him to become Champion, etc. And the idol was - for Cassandra - also supposedly part of Hawke's plan. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

In Exile wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

Since the mages were already distancing themselves from Anders actions in 'Asunder' I'm guessing Hawke will be the one they remember, either for brutally killing the mages or fighting in their defense when Meredith went crazy after being handed an excuse by Anders.

Yeah. And almost nobody in the nonmage group even knew he was the one responsible. Cassandra, a Seeker of Truth and therefore the ones who would know this more than anyone but the mages, didn't know anders was responsible until Varric revealed it to her. With the Mages treating him as someone not to be affiliated with and the nonmages not even knowing who he was, the chances of him getting a religion based after him are almost nonexistant. 

DA2 does a bad job of spelling this out, but it's not that Cassandra doesn't know it's Anders, it's that she thinks Hawke conspired to bring the whole thing about: getting Aveline appointed to the Guard, having Anders bomb the Chantry, inciting the Arishok to rise up against Kirkwall only to later put him down/negotiate with him to become Champion, etc. And the idol was - for Cassandra - also supposedly part of Hawke's plan. 

True enough. I forgot about that conversation. I suppose it's more that the Seekers saw Anders as just a pawn of Hawke's. But that still stands that Anders would not have a religion based on his actions if he was viewed as a pawn of somebody else.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 02 janvier 2014 - 11:41 .

[In Exile]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
True enough. I suppose it's more that the Seekers saw Anders as just a pawn of Hawke's(which is weird if Hawke sides with the Templars). But that still stands that Anders would not have a religion based on his actions if he was viewed as a pawn of somebody else.

Not really. If Cass sees Hawke as anti-mage, then the theory is that he finds coo-coo for cocopuffs Anders and incites him to magical terrorism to find a way to put the Circle down. 

Modifié par In Exile, 02 janvier 2014 - 11:41 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

In Exile wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
True enough. I suppose it's more that the Seekers saw Anders as just a pawn of Hawke's(which is weird if Hawke sides with the Templars). But that still stands that Anders would not have a religion based on his actions if he was viewed as a pawn of somebody else.

Not really. If Cass sees Hawke as anti-mage, then the theory is that he finds coo-coo for cocopuffs Anders and incites him to magical terrorism to find a way to put the Circle down. 

I changed my post as soon as I read it again.

[DPSSOC]

rasloveszev wrote...

lady_v23 wrote...
I mean I will rage if he does become the new Andraste. 

I don't think he's going to be a hero or a symbol, maybe a martyr.  He did destroy the chantry which was filled with innocet people, incluing a very important figure, the gland cleric.

and btw I'm pro mage:wizard:

Didn't Andraste do the same thing?

Not really.  Andraste marshalled armies, met her oppressors on the field of battle, and actually stood on the front lines.  Anders by comparison set a rabid dog loose in a daycare with no intention of sticking around to help.  To give it more context imagine a bar.  Andraste is the one standing shoulder to shoulder with you against a much larger group that wanted to start a fight, and Anders pushed you into the biggest guy he could find so he could watch you get the tar beaten out of you.  Actually Anders only sticks around to watch if Hawke makes him so that's not a perfect analogy.

[Medhia Nox]

Well - the mages aren't going to "win" - so there's that.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The main difference is that Andraste's message was embraced by most of the people in Thedas, either before or after her death. She and her followers liberated all those oppressed by the Imperium, which was most people. That's why so many people flocked to her name. Even in Tevinter.

Anders murdered some people in order to plunge the world into a war that almost nobody wanted. Even many of the people he wanted to liberate rejected his methods and many others certainly didn't want his war. But he didn't care. He only cares about what he wanted for them.

I think it's much more likely the average Thedosians spend the next few generations cursing his name. Either for murdering a beloved Grand Cleric and many innocents or for plunging the world into another war or for unleashing angry uncontrolled mages upon the world. Or all three. Or perhaps his roll in starting the conflict will becoming increasingly forgotten as the war rages on.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 03 janvier 2014 - 04:37 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Anders was a great believer in 'give them liberty or give them death', without really asking them or doing much to support the liberty outcome.

But hey, the guy was bonded with a magical embodiment of psychological obsession.

[wtfman99]

I did let him live and I did find his character interesting but not sure I'd go this far

[The Six Path of Pain]

What if I killed him...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Adanu wrote...
Way to miss the point of what ANders did, but then, you represent the common intellect of forum goers here.

Which would still be higher than yours by an order of magnitude?

Also, David can call it not-slavery all he likes, he's wrong. The circle is a system of slavery just gilded slavery. Pretty slavery is still slavery, no matter how he tries to spin it.

And you are correct? Sez who? You?

Slavery is a word is thrown around a lot by mage supporters, because they think it gives them weight, but mages aren't really slaves.

No, your words are slavery.
Prove me wrong.
HINT: You won't becaue my definition of slavery is the only thing that matters.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 03 janvier 2014 - 10:57 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I honestly don't think the mages can win, they don't have any infrastructure, no real allies they can count on, most of them don't have much in the way of combat training, and the vast majority of Thedas is very much against them.

The Templars on the other hand have a long history of militant organization, they may have sacrificed a lot of good will by breaking with the chantry but I know who the commons are more likely to see as the hero.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Vit246 wrote...

I would say it was more about showing how the Templars ignore the immediate guilty party in front of them and instead attack the faction that had nothing to do with an apostate outsider.

And who would know?
No one.
No one aside from the player knew Anders was acting alone. Meredith didn't. The templars didn't (and no, as the assasin saying "I'm not working with anyone" means jack s*** and no one has any reason to trust him.)

And I would remind you that the Kirkwall Chantry was destroyed at nighttime, the time when the Kirkwall Chantry was closed to the general populace.

Mostly closed.
IIRC, the Chantry has beds for the homeless and the destruction of it sent debris flying everywhere and multiple fires started around the city. So death of innocents is guaranteed, even if you (wrongly) assuem that everyone is the chantry is guilty and deserves death.

[Jaison1986]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

I honestly don't think the mages can win, they don't have any infrastructure, no real allies they can count on, most of them don't have much in the way of combat training, and the vast majority of Thedas is very much against them.

The Templars on the other hand have a long history of militant organization, they may have sacrificed a lot of good will by breaking with the chantry but I know who the commons are more likely to see as the hero.

That would change if you had your Inquisitor support their cause considering your order will have a lot of influence. 

And the templars are going to lose a lot of credibility with the whole red templars deal.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

I honestly don't think the mages can win, they don't have any infrastructure, no real allies they can count on, most of them don't have much in the way of combat training, and the vast majority of Thedas is very much against them.

The Templars on the other hand have a long history of militant organization, they may have sacrificed a lot of good will by breaking with the chantry but I know who the commons are more likely to see as the hero.

That would change if you had your Inquisitor support their cause considering your order will have a lot of influence. 

And the templars are going to lose a lot of credibility with the whole red templars deal.

That's just it though, even with Inquisitorial support I just don't see them doing any better than maybe wringing a few concessions out in the surrender.